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Same location as the duel in ESB

Sabers
Force
All out

Luke will take sabers

Kylo force

Luke All out

Kylo wins all.

Kylo imo.

Losing to Rey shows Kylo definitely isn't ready.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Losing to Rey shows Kylo definitely isn't ready.

Kylo was hindered during the fight. He was emotional unstable and had been shot by a weapon thats sent others flying back. Finn had somewhat softened him up as he landed some hits as he apparently was proficient in melee combat as a Stormtrooper. I think in a book it states he was adapt at using melee weapons. Also, Rey needed a Force amp and Kylo wasn't trying to kill her during the fight.

Doesn't change what I said in the slightest.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Losing to Rey shows Kylo definitely isn't ready. How does it show that?

Well, as described in the novel, Kylo isn't used to actually fighting Force Users, especially of Rey's caliber, which ESB Luke is. Kylo can obviously take a few rounds, but I see Luke taking the majority. Not to mention Snoke obviously thinking she is the more powerful.

When did Snoke think that?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
which ESB Luke is.

Um?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Losing to Rey shows Kylo definitely isn't ready. Luke wasn't ready either...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well, as described in the novel, Kylo isn't used to actually fighting Force Users, especially of Rey's caliber, which ESB Luke is. Kylo can obviously take a few rounds, but I see Luke taking the majority. Not to mention Snoke obviously thinking she is the more powerful. What force users has Luke fought pre-Vader?

None. The same number Rey fought before Ren.
Originally posted by ares834
When did Snoke think that?
Snoke told Rey to kill Kylo, going by the script. Why would he do that if Ren was stronger?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Luke wasn't ready either... Fs really isn't used to debating or facing the fact his own point just blew up in his face. Poor guy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Luke wasn't ready either...
To face Vader. Kylo isn't comparable to Vader in any way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Snoke told Rey to kill Kylo, going by the script. Why would he do that if Ren was stronger?
Because she has greater potential?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
None. The same number Rey fought before Ren. In which case his experience against force users would be the exactly the same as Ren's?

I dunno if you're trolling or drunk.

How it's that relevant when Kylo is stated to be at a disadvantage and Luke wasn't? Not to mention Luke's potential far outstripping Kylo's, this isn't exactly a case of similar comparisons. Anakin didn't face any Force Users before Dooku and Obi-Wan did, but it's pretty obvious who actually did better in that situation.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because she has greater potential?
Which is what I was taking about not actual realized power.

i thought it was the audiodrama. the script says it too?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
To face Vader. Kylo isn't comparable to Vader in any way. And ESB Luke is?

Anyway Luke wasn't ready because his skills were unrefined and he had next to no duelling experience.

Kylo however though unrefined as a duelist, has likely been trained as a Jedi from a young age, has received further training from Snoke, and has proven his abilities and garnered experience by destroying Luke's order.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How it's that relevant when Kylo is stated to be at a disadvantage and Luke wasn't? Not to mention Luke's potential far outstripping Kylo's, this isn't exactly a case of similar comparisons. Anakin didn't face any Force Users before Dooku and Obi-Wan did, but it's pretty obvious who actually did better in that situation.

Which is what I was taking about not actual realized power. Dude, she just overpowered him in acquiring Luke's lightsaber.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
ESB Luke is?

Anyway Luke wasn't ready because his skills were unrefined and he had next to no duelling experience.

Wrong. Luke has combat experience by ESB, has already fought Vader and was trained in the lightsaber combat. Not to mention Rey had absolutely zero training, and Luke has been training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Kylo and a bunch of his friends killing randoms isn't proof of anything, add his training under Snoke has been under an undefined amount of time, as it's more recent than Rey's abandonment.

"Fought" Vader.

He had his lightsaber out, so it counts. Just ask any 14 year old.

Fs ignores the same reasons when applied to his side and begins the justification game.

Also Kylo was "severely injured" which would probably make a difference lol. Your assumption is that he killed a bunch of randoms. From what I've read, Kylo wiped out the new jedi order, who I'm assuming had been trained to a certain degree by Luke Skywalker. Better feat than wiping out some randoms. Now I'm not saying he's Anakin, who went to the jedi temple and slaughered every jedi there, but it's still an accomplishment.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrong. Luke has combat experience by ESB, has already fought Vader and was trained in the lightsaber combat. Not to mention Rey had absolutely zero training, and Luke has been training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Kylo and a bunch of his friends killing randoms isn't proof of anything, add his training under Snoke has been under an undefined amount of time, as it's more recent than Rey's abandonment. Being relieved of his lightsaber by Vader hardly counts. In terms of duelling experience he pales in comparison to Ren, and destroying Luke's Jedi Order is a better feat than anything ESB Luke has.

And this isn't Luke vs Rey, proving Luke is better than Rey isn't proof he can win here.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Also Kylo was "severely injured" which would probably make a difference lol. Your assumption is that he killed a bunch of randoms. From what I've read, Kylo wiped out the new jedi order, who I'm assuming had been trained to a certain degree by Luke Skywalker. Better feat than wiping out some randoms. Now I'm not saying he's Anakin, who went to the jedi temple and slaughered every jedi there, but it's still an accomplishment. do we know exactly how he did it or did it happen off panel/screen? For all we know, he bombarded them with orbital strikes, or poisoned their food, or led a massive army of soldiers to kill them, or got them to go to war with each other until they were weak enough that he could beat the survivors. Being stated to have taken out the new jedi order is nice and all, but I go off of on panel evidence to see how powerful a character is.

Nah its explicitly attributed to his "deadly" lightsaber skills, earning him a reputation as a "Jedi Killer."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrong. Luke has combat experience by ESB, has already fought Vader and was trained in the lightsaber combat. Not to mention Rey had absolutely zero training, and Luke has been training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.







Luke had plenty of experience using the Force and his Saber in combat by Episode 5 as per Canon.

In the Weapon of a Jedi, he spent hours and hours training in a Temple deflecting shots with his Saber. And that was right after Yavin. Since then in the Marvel comics he's fought in a Gladiator Arena, he's fought Boba Fett blind, and had a little scuffle with Vader. And that's just what we know of so far between ANH and ESB.

And then of course in ESB he gets a few days/weeks of 1 on 1 training with Yoda before facing off against Vader.

A "scuffle" with Vader, a fight with a guy of undetermined skill who may or may not be Force sensitive and a few days of practice against Magnaguards =/= next to no dueling experience. And let's not forget all the above capably defeated him.

And three years of uninstructed Padawan-tier practice and a week-crash course from Yoda is not going to provide him with anything more than unrefined skill, hence why Yoda claimed he wasn't ready, and again pales in comparison to the formal training Ren would have received.

I doubt Yoda taught him much lightsaber stuff. Kylo obviously has leagues more training and experience than ESB Luke does in dueling. Incomparably.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And let's not forget all the above capably defeated him.




My memory's hazy but didn't he defeat Boba Fett?

Even escaping him after fighting him blind is pretty damn impressive IMO.

And obviously he'd get stomped by Vader at that point. But just scuffling with him is experience he can learn from.

Point being he's clearly been using the Force and his Saber in combat regularly between ANH and ESB.

Luke for a healthy majority.

If Kylo is hurt like he was when he fought Rey then he's utterly destroyed.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
My memory's hazy but didn't he defeat Boba Fett?

Even escaping him after fighting him blind is pretty damn impressive IMO.Yeah but that's not dueling experience, a good feat but I doubt it would have done much or anything to prepare him for lightsaber combat.

In fact the first time we see him in a duel, he's on the ground in a couple of panels, even after days of training the guy still handily defeats him.Not even, Luke takes one swing at him then Vader takes his lightsaber. The only thing he learnt from that was his incompetence.
I never actually denied that.

But the fact remains his experience of actual lightsaber combat is scant to say the least, and in the few duels he's been in he's lost, every time.

Whereas Kylo is a great deal more experienced, and was far more successful.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah but that's not dueling experience, a good feat but I doubt it would have done much or anything to prepare him for lightsaber combat.


I mean Boba Fett could challenge and even kill many Jedi even with their Sabers if he's anything like Jango. And Luke was blind. Taking on the best bounty hunter blind, shows his prowess as a force combatant that early on.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
In fact the first time we see him in a duel, he's on the ground in a couple of panels, even after days of training the guy still handily defeats him.

Well like you said it was his First duel. And he was probably pretty tired from all the training.



Originally posted by Beniboybling

But the fact remains his experience of actual lightsaber combat is scant to say the least, and in the few duels he's been in he's lost, every time.

Whereas Kylo is a great deal more experienced, and was far more successful.


Yeah but those are just his first experiences. And he got further sword training in the Arena. Probably just needed time to adapt what he learned.

And his force enhanced abilities were clearly pretty impressive already. ESB Luke is on a whole other level. Especially after his training with Yoda.

So even though Ren may have better dueling skill, I would still bet on Luke in a Saber/Close combat fight personally.

Han was blind not Luke

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Han was blind not Luke


Lol Talking about the Marvel comic where Luke fights Boba.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but those are just his first experiences. And he got further sword training in the Arena. Probably just needed time to adapt what he learned.

And his force enhanced abilities were clearly pretty impressive already. ESB Luke is on a whole other level. Especially after his training with Yoda.

So even though Ren may have better dueling skill, I would still bet on Luke in a Saber/Close combat fight personally. I'm not going to deny that Luke has had some good training/experience under his belt, he does.

However fact remains he's not as experienced as Ren, his training isn't as extensive as Ren's, he hasn't got as good saber feats or hype as Ren, and he's less masterful in the Force than Ren.

So what does Luke really having going for him here that warrants at all betting on him?

Luke (to me) seems to have more natural ability, seems to be nowhere near as conflicted, and seems to have progressed at a much faster rate than any other Jedi in training I'm aware of.

Not sure Ren has better Saber feats, as tagging Vader's shoulder would be above anything Ren accomplished. Plus Luke's general close combat feats impress me more - The Boba Fett thing is hella impressive for a force user whose just started training.

Tbh

Ren would crush Boba.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A "scuffle" with Vader, a fight with a guy of undetermined skill who may or may not be Force sensitive and a few days of practice against Magnaguards =/= next to no dueling experience. And let's not forget all the above capably defeated him.

And three years of uninstructed Padawan-tier practice and a week-crash course from Yoda is not going to provide him with anything more than unrefined skill, hence why Yoda claimed he wasn't ready, and again pales in comparison to the formal training Ren would have received. Preach it brother. Darth Thor doesn't grasp Star Wars.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ren would crush Boba.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Luke (to me) seems to have more natural ability, seems to be nowhere near as conflictedThat is true, if pushed to his limits a display of potential could net him some wins.Kylo is a Skywalker as well however, so it stands to reason he'd have an above-average rate of progression too, on top of much more training.It's a good showing, but we should also bear in mind that he did so in the contexts of a very reckless assault on Vader's part, which left him open.It's an impressive feat, but I feel by getting subsequently floored by the undercover stormtrooper suggest it proves little regarding dueling ability.

I'm sure Luke could hold his own in sabers, however I don't see Luke handling Kylo's Force powers at all well in the other rounds.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kylo is a Skywalker as well however, so it stands to reason he'd have an above-average rate of progression too, on top of much more training.

Remember though it took Anakin Skywalker himself 10+years of training under a Jedi Knight the whole time, to get to the same sort of level Luke reached in just 4years by ROTJ.

Obi-Wan was holding him back. uhuh

Anyway, I highly doubt Kylo is comparable to Luke.