Obi-Wan should've trained Luke wayyy earlier

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Rebel95
Why the hell didn't OB1 just train Luke from birth? That way he would be less prone to fall to the darkside like Anakin did, and he would be way more experienced and a better weapon against the sith.

queeq
Because training Jedi from birth was never the original plan when the OT was made. This was something Lucas came up with when he was writing the PT.

Zenwolf
That and Owen wouldn't allow it soo....also he seemed to have did fine regardless.

Galan007
Originally posted by queeq
Because training Jedi from birth was never the original plan when the OT was made. This was something Lucas came up with when he was writing the PT. But in ESB Yoda said that Luke was too old to begin the training(he nearly refused to train Luke all together because of this.) So even if we don't want to assume the Jedi training could have started as early as birth, it definitely could have started much sooner than it did--even in the OT.

cdtm
Possibly. Lucas has enough obvious revisionist examples where it's much more likely he was making it up as he went along, imo.

Take the kids training with helmed blast shields and probe ball. Just like Obi Wan did with Luke!

Because, the guy who didn't believe in Jedi was carrying around Jedi training instruments in his ship?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007
But in ESB Yoda said that Luke was too old to begin the training(he nearly refused to train Luke all together because of this.) So even if we don't want to assume the Jedi training could have started as early as birth, it definitely could have started much sooner than it did--even in the OT.


thumb up


We'll have to go with the reason explained at the end of ROTS. That the kids had to be kept in hiding until the time was right (a time like when there's a rebellion which Luke has joined).

Because when such powerful potential force users begin their training, Palpatine will sense that disturbance in the Force, as he did in ESB.

queeq
Originally posted by Galan007
But in ESB Yoda said that Luke was too old to begin the training(he nearly refused to train Luke all together because of this.) So even if we don't want to assume the Jedi training could have started as early as birth, it definitely could have started much sooner than it did--even in the OT.

Yes, people bring that up. But Luke was about 20-23 years old. Maybe the best age to start trying is somewhere in the teens: like 16-17 years old.

It always felt that way, since OB1 told Yoda he was once reckless, too. Now, a four year old kid being reckless??? That doesn't make sense.

Galan007
^ Yeah, where the OT is concerned, that's kind of what I was getting at.

Though training someone from near-birth makes a lot more sense, tbh. By the time they've become a teenager(and beyond), most people already have well established self-imposed limitations/mental-blocks in place. It's simply much harder for them to grasp the notion that they can perform the impossible.

Beginning the training from a very young age means they are far more receptive to the "there is no try" mentality.

Bentley
Originally posted by Darth Thor
thumb up


We'll have to go with the reason explained at the end of ROTS. That the kids had to be kept in hiding until the time was right (a time like when there's a rebellion which Luke has joined).

Because when such powerful potential force users begin their training, Palpatine will sense that disturbance in the Force, as he did in ESB.

I'd also add that Obi Wan may actually prefer not to train Anakin's family at all. From experience the Skywalkers have proved to be too dangerous to be meddled with, maybe during his years into hiding OB1 tried to train something else or stop Anakin differently?

queeq
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yeah, where the OT is concerned, that's kind of what I was getting at.

Though training someone from near-birth makes a lot more sense, tbh. By the time they've become a teenager(and beyond), most people already have well established self-imposed limitations/mental-blocks in place. It's simply much harder for them to grasp the notion that they can perform the impossible.

Beginning the training from a very young age means they are far more receptive to the "there is no try" mentality.

Is it? Taking kids away from their parents makes really good completely screwed up people. It's one of the worst concepts in the SW universe.

It's like with many talents: if you don't CHOOSE for something you will never reach full potential. Pro sportsmen are people who choose for a professional sports future when they're over twelve years old. That would make a lot more sense to me.

Galan007
You'd think so. However, that method of recruitment/training enabled the Jedi Order to flourish over the years, so it definitely worked... And worked well. The Jedi of the PT were, after all, among the finest the Order had ever produced.

Anywho, if children begin the training early enough, they wouldn't remember much of their life before the Order anyway. And while an exact --or 'optimal'-- age was never given as to when a child was recruited, Anakin, who was 9y/o in TPM, was considered "FAR too old" to begin the training... So we know children were initially recruited into the Order at a much younger age than 9.

Sounds cold(and it is), but protection is protection, I guess. /shrug

queeq
Err... dude. This is a movie. It's someone who came up with it. The PT isn't 'proof' that it worked.

It's a silly concept and quite cruel to children.

Zenwolf
Despite being cruel, would you wanna live with someone who isn't able to control said mystic power, lashing out at you with it and being able to kill you without so much hesitation?

I mean there's cons to both sides here, though one is worse than the other, because said person could end up being shunned by their fellows for being labeled as a freak of nature, or outright killed because the people are scared or what said person can do. Or said person could end up killing everyone, due to being labeled as a freak and ridiculed.

Not saying it always happens, but there is that possibility.

Galan007
Originally posted by queeq
Err... dude. This is a movie. It's someone who came up with it. The PT isn't 'proof' that it worked. It is absolutely proof that it worked, imo. Like I mentioned above: the Jedi Order wouldn't have flourished like we saw in the PT, if the Order's methods of recruitment/training didn't work very well.

Originally posted by queeq
It's a silly concept and quite cruel to children. Maybe. But from an in-universe POV the concept was still very effective, and produced quality Jedi.

queeq
Originally posted by Galan007
It is absolutely proof that it worked, imo. Like I mentioned above: the Jedi Order wouldn't have flourished like we saw in the PT, if the Order's methods of recruitment/training didn't work very well.

OKay... we have a weird fanboy here... Maybe I should break it to you: Star Wars is FICTION!

Galan007
Originally posted by queeq
OKay... we have a weird fanboy here... Maybe I should break it to you: Star Wars is FICTION! 'Fanboy' is a rather disrespectful insult for a mod(of all people) to call another member who was having a civilized discussion. srsly

Is this forum not dedicated to discussing a purely fictional franchise? Why in the heck would I cling to real world ideologies here? I specifically said in my last post that my opinion is based on how things work from an 'in-universe POV'.

There's no need to bash/flame me for giving a perfectly reasonable, and moreover logical opinion regarding the question posed in the OP.

queeq
We were discussing the concept of training Jedi from a very early age (like two) and that Lucas changed his mind about the best age to be trained between OT and PT.

And then you say: the PT proves that training them from kids works great! I mean, that is really weird.

Galan007
I'm not saying that pulling children from their families at a very young age isn't cold(it obviously is.) I'm just saying that, from an in-universe POV, this method of recruitment/training obviously worked very well, because the Jedi Order was at its peak in the PT. That much isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Maybe recruiting force-sensitives at an older age would work better. Who knows? Although I'd think if that were the case, the Order would have adopted that method instead. /shrug


Not sure why you think it's so weird for me to reference facts from the series... In a forum dedicated to discussing facts from the series..? confused

queeq
Having Jedi trained from very early on was a choice by Lucas, who changed his mind between the two trilogies. If someone doesn't stand a chance to amount to anything in Jedi training if you don't start at a very early age, why does OB1 send Luke to Yoda.

And Yoda says: "only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader. And the Emperor." Yet, Luke defeats Vader. So in OT terms it is possible to be great as a Jedi without all that silly remote fighting as kids with Millennium Falcon helmets.

Now, the PT is often used to show where the OT doesn't make sense. Using the PT elements as proof. But the OT predates the PT. And the fact that stuff got changed after the fact kinda made the OT weird.

It's like the lightsaber fights. Many martial arts sword fighters consider the PT fights as utterly ridiculous. In fact, the ANH fight probably the most realistic based on the nature of the weapon. Twirling and swirling makes one vulnerable and with a weapons that doesn't take much force to chop off your leg, that is plain dumb. It doesn't make sense to fight that way.

Just as it doesn't make sense to abduct kids from their parents and commit them to a life without passion and sex.

Zenwolf
Trying to apply RL fighting is pointless to fictional fighting, I don't know why people do this.

Galan007
Originally posted by queeq
And Yoda says: "only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader. And the Emperor." Yet, Luke defeats Vader. So in OT terms it is possible to be great as a Jedi without all that silly remote fighting as kids with Millennium Falcon helmets. You misunderstand, I think. I never said it was impossible to produce great Jedi the way you're describing. I just pointed out that the recruitment/training methods of the PT...callused as they seemed...still worked very well in the long run, and never really failed them. The Jedi Order flourished. Top-notch Jedi arose. Etc.

So from an in-universe POV, said methods served their purpose wonderfully--our personal views of right or wrong do not change this fact. That's all I'm saying.

Lord Lucien
Given that all the "trained-from-birth" Jedi in the prequels were functionally retarded, and the one trained from adolescence grew up to be a mass-murdering psychopath who super easily fell to the Dark Side...

And the 20-something Jedi we see trained in the OT successfully resisted the Dark Side and redeemed said mass murderer...


I'm gonna go with the notion that Obi-Wan realized what a batshit crazy idea it is to brainwash babies and make them join your magic cult.

Galan007
There were hundreds(possibly thousands) of Jedi in the PT-era. Not sure what type of standards you have, but you can't expect every one of them to be Yoda. The PT was full of garbage, that's for sure(Lucas dropped the ball hard)--but that doesn't mean the Order as a whole wasn't flourishing. It absolutely was. So yes, their methods were definitely successful in that regard.

And that '20-something Jedi' was Luke Skywalker who, by GL's own accord, was essentially bred to be everything that Anakin was not... And we saw where his own recruitment/training methods got him post-RotJ. evil face

Bentley
The Force hates parenthood, so it's kind of logic for it to want little kids excised from their families.

queeq
Originally posted by Galan007
So from an in-universe POV, said methods served their purpose wonderfully--our personal views of right or wrong do not change this fact. That's all I'm saying.

Well, the in-universe of SW is contradictory on many counts. It's a universe that's been developed as they made the films. And Lucas changed his mind all the time.

Even though I love SW, as geofiction it's not as well developed as Middle Earth or the Dune universe. Therefor the in-universe logic is not really an argument from me. Because often it doesn't make much sense.

Galan007
You're right. Not much about SW makes sense from an outside perspective(especially where the PT is concerned.)

I'm just trying to stay in-line with the context presented to us, is all. If we don't, we could probably sit here and sideline QB the films all day long, lol.

queeq
Yeah, I know. I think some in-line concepts diminish the power of SW. Jar Jar for instance (especially as 'the key to all this') and training Jedi from birth.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by Bentley
The Force hates parenthood, so it's kind of logic for it to want little kids excised from their families.


The Force is DISNEY!?

queeq
It is now. laughing out loud

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Galan007
There were hundreds(possibly thousands) of Jedi in the PT-era. Not sure what type of standards you have, but you can't expect every one of them to be Yoda. The PT was full of garbage, that's for sure(Lucas dropped the ball hard)--but that doesn't mean the Order as a whole wasn't flourishing. It absolutely was. So yes, their methods were definitely successful in that regard. Did you know wheat is one of the most successful species that ever lived? It's flourishing, but that doesn't make it smart. Which is something you need to be if you're a Jedi Order, "guardians of peace and justice."


The PT Jedi were numerous and plentiful, and got the ever-loving shit murdered out of them by one of the most sinister villains you could put a fake smile over. The PT Jedi apparently didn't know how to not create retarded Jedi. Retarded if trained from birth, psychotic and deranged if trained from 9.



So score 1 for the OT's method of training a grown man. And as for: Originally posted by Galan007
And that '20-something Jedi' was Luke Skywalker who, by GL's own accord, was essentially bred to be everything that Anakin was not... And we saw where his own recruitment/training methods got him post-RotJ. evil face ZanZPFn6dE0

Galan007
So if the Jedi Order's regimen during the PT was to only begin training force-sensitives when they were 20-something, you think Palpatine's machinations/Order 666 would have been less successful? You think changing the age at which a Jedi's training began would have entirely changed how all the events played out in the films, thereby altering GL's vision? Nonsense.

Simply put: the PT Jedi were 'neutered' when they had to be, for the sake of the plot. Not because PT Jedi were trained poorly/incorrectly from an in-universe POV. You're injecting too much of your own PT discontent into this discussion, me thinks.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Galan007
GL's vision? Lol I care about "GL's vision"? I care about what I see onscreen. Retarded/evil PT Jedi.


If training from infancy at worst or childhood at best is what leads to the ridiculous, stupid, dumbass PT Jedi, then I say f*ck that. Go with older training. Onscreen we've seen that one actually work properly. Luke defeats the Dark Side, resists temptation, and redeems a Sith Lord. Alot more than what Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon and the gang ever did. But they did nothing other than fail and/or die so...



Originally posted by Galan007
Simply put: the PT Jedi were 'neutered' when they had to be, ***for the sake of the plot***. Not because PT Jedi were trained poorly/incorrectly from an in-universe POV. You're injecting too much of your own PT discontent into this discussion, me thinks. GL's "vision" falls by the wayside when the plot needs it to, eh?


If you've raised/trained a generation of fools, idiots, retards, and psychopaths, you're doing something wrong.

Galan007
^ Lol. I like how you cherry-picked a few portions of my post, took those excerpts wildly out of context, and then completely dodged the initial question.

Not playing that game. thumb up

queeq
Originally Jedi were supposed a kind of monks. Inspired on the Shaolin monks. And monks don't join the monastery after birth.

quanchi112
GalaOriginally posted by Galan007
So if the Jedi Order's regimen during the PT was to only begin training force-sensitives when they were 20-something, you think Palpatine's machinations/Order 666 would have been less successful? You think changing the age at which a Jedi's training began would have entirely changed how all the events played out in the films, thereby altering GL's vision? Nonsense.

Simply put: the PT Jedi were 'neutered' when they had to be, for the sake of the plot. Not because PT Jedi were trained poorly/incorrectly from an in-universe POV. You're injecting too much of your own PT discontent into this discussion, me thinks. thumb up

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Lol. I like how you cherry-picked a few portions of my post, took those excerpts wildly out of context, and then completely dodged the initial question.

Not playing that game. thumb up I like how instead of countering what I said, you identified a flaw in my style of response and focused solely on that, like you think introducing ad hominem disproves the validity of my words.

Good to know you couldn't think of a counter-point.

queeq
laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Good to know you couldn't think of a counter-point. Lol, irony much? You realize this is exactly what you did when you ignored/dodged my initial question(which entirely defeated your line of 'logic'), right?

Again:
Originally posted by Galan007
So if the Jedi Order's regimen during the PT was to only begin training force-sensitives when they were 20-something, you think Palpatine's machinations/Order 666 would have been less successful?

But yeah, keep trying to move goalposts with your faux-intellectual banter. I'm still not going to play that game. smile

queeq
Oh please! wink

Galan007
?

queeq
Please play the game... wink

Galan007
https://49.media.tumblr.com/2b3f6d53fb5e5368f98b230156e0b532/tumblr_o19p1ogeE31qd4rf5o1_500.gif

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, irony much? You realize this is exactly what you did when you ignored/dodged my initial question(which entirely defeated your line of 'logic'), right?

Again:


But yeah, keep trying to move goalposts with your faux-intellectual banter. I'm still not going to play that game. smile http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors3/marcus-tullius-cicero-statesman-when-you-have-no-basis-for-an.jpg



Still waiting on a response. You're not being very fun.

Galan007
Originally posted by Galan007
https://49.media.tumblr.com/2b3f6d53fb5e5368f98b230156e0b532/tumblr_o19p1ogeE31qd4rf5o1_500.gif








PS. I don't like your games. sly

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Galan007
PS. I don't like your games. sly Play them.



http://c15065204.r4.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/786_ReindeerGames_Catalog_Poster_v2.png

queeq
laughing out loud

Darth Thor
Well in the new canon it seems Ben talked to Owen about training Luke as a boy, but Owen simply told him where to go. Which makes sense.

queeq
OB1 said something along those lines in ANH. Except with the PT the whole 'damn idealistic crusade' doesn't make any sense anymore.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well in the new canon it seems Ben talked to Owen about training Luke as a boy, but Owen simply told him where to go. Which makes sense. thumb up
http://i.imgur.com/T7xzJRv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wqv15Wi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YdlARkY.jpg

New canon also depicts Owen as an absolute prick. srsly

queeq
So did the old canon. wink

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
We were discussing the concept of training Jedi from a very early age (like two) and that Lucas changed his mind about the best age to be trained between OT and PT.

And then you say: the PT proves that training them from kids works great! I mean, that is really weird.

Seeing how almost all of the Jedi were wiped out due to events that unfolded during the PT, perhaps their methods were not so good. big grin

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up
http://i.imgur.com/T7xzJRv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wqv15Wi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YdlARkY.jpg

New canon also depicts Owen as an absolute prick. srsly

So protecting your family from potentially going down a path which destroyed said family of the child's, is being a prick?

queeq
Originally posted by sweersa
Seeing how almost all of the Jedi were wiped out due to events that unfolded during the PT, perhaps their methods were not so good. big grin


laughing

Good point!

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Zenwolf
So protecting your family from potentially going down a path which destroyed said family of the child's, is being a prick?

Yeah except that Owen is too close-minded to understand it all.

If Luke didn't train to be a Jedi, he would've eventually been discovered by Vader or the Empire as his Force powers would've manifested sooner or later. Without the proper training, he wouldn't know how to control them and would probably accidentally draw attention to himself. Fact is, Owen was being selfish and just didn't want Luke to grow and be different to him and more like his father aka a Jedi Knight and also selfish because he knew Luke could definitely help the Rebel Alliance stop the Empire with his Jedi powers but he'd rather Luke remained a petty farmer in a world with little future for him.

So, yeah, he's a prick.

Darth Thor
^ I don't know if Owen knew that Luke was basically the Chosen One who could save the Galaxy. He just seems to know that Luke was a potential Jedi like his Father.


Regarding Luke training much earlier, Sam Witwer gives his opinion on it on Collider Jedi Council this week, saying they(Luke and Leia) couldn't be trained at a young age, because they were too powerful and the Sith would sense that. So the Jedi were waiting for them to grow up, be old enough and competent enough to defend themselves, and then to be trained as quickly as possible.

Makes sense tbh.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ I don't know if Owen knew that Luke was basically the Chosen One who could save the Galaxy. He just seems to know that Luke was a potential Jedi like his Father.


Regarding Luke training much earlier, Sam Witwer gives his opinion on it on Collider Jedi Council this week, saying they(Luke and Leia) couldn't be trained at a young age, because they were too powerful and the Sith would sense that. So the Jedi were waiting for them to grow up, be old enough and competent enough to defend themselves, and then to be trained as quickly as possible.

Makes sense tbh.

Yeah I mean he didn't know Luke would be an all powerful Jedi, but he certainly knew he could help the Rebellion a lot and could potentially be a powerful Jedi and have a much brighter future than just farm in Tatooine tbh.

queeq
Coulda, woulda, shoulda...

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