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CW Maul and Anakin

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Solid win for Anakin.

Bane loses

Anakin

Maul wins.

Anakin.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Anakin Based on ?

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin.

Anakins a 9 during his fight with Dooku which is what I take him at since it's his prime and that's a level of Sidious and Yoda. Maul was humor end by an arguably less than 100% Sidious with help, so yea Anakin however not a stomp.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Anakins a 9 during his fight with Dooku which is what I take him at since it's his prime and that's a level of Sidious and Yoda. Maul was humor end by an arguably less than 100% Sidious with help, so yea Anakin however not a stomp.

What he said. Maul takes physicality but Anakin takes sabers and maybe Force. Anakin's equal if not superior to Maul in the Force. It's gonna be a 6/10 though.

I'd say more than 6/10 personally. Remember Maul was revived end of S4. And Anakin was already giving Dooku hell at that time. Then they both grew stronger as TCW progressed.

Maul is Kenobi's equal. But he's below Skywalker.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'd say more than 6/10 personally. Remember Maul was revived end of S4. And Anakin was already giving Dooku hell at that time. Then they both grew stronger as TCW progressed.

Maul is Kenobi's equal. But he's below Skywalker.

True. I wouldn't blame someone if they said 8/10 with those 8 Anakin wins being after one hell of a fight.

I'd say SOD Maul vs ROTS Kenobi is circumstantial.

I'd ssy an even split. Anakin didn't cross the Maul/Dooku level threshold until after TCW. They are times when he can operate above that, but it's few and far in between.

Maul also didn't get to near Dooku threshold until SOD, close to the end of the clone wars, at which point Anakin had grown more Powerful than Dooku anyway.

"My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count".

TCW cartoon is canon, right? That means Anakin got quite a ridiculous boost in a really short time...

zannah sucks

Well I doubt he actually "doubled" since the last time they met, but he knew he had grown in power.

And According to the ROTS novel he was still getting stronger.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well I doubt he actually "doubled" since the last time they met, but he knew he had grown in power.

And According to the ROTS novel he was still getting stronger.

I like to think that he has Even though Anakin's statements are often dubious. "As wise as Yoda and as powerful as Mace Windu", for example...

Dooku was a Dark Jedi Master and a Sith Lord, beating him is one of Annie's highest showings.

Anakin rapes.

Anakin.
Anakin.
Anakin.

Still Ani.

Late TCW Anakin solidly defeats TCW/SOD Maul. Whereas ROTS Anakin stomps any version of Maul Lol

It's no rape tbh. Anakin is bottom of tier 9 and Maul, the top of tier 8. Anakin's victories come through massive strength advantage; Dooku, Ventress etc. a category Anakin isn't stomping in. I'll no doubt get roasted but I believe Bloodlusted Maul = Anakin
Maul still loses tho

Maul is above Kenobi, circumstantial or not he could've killed him with force choke upwards of 3-4 times :/
Plot armour > Maul

RotS Anakin's better skilfully, physically, and in the Force. He's on another level as a lightsaber combatant and another league as a Force wielder. This is a very decisive win for him.

I'm interested on your take of the ROTS Dooku vs Anakin fight Sunrazor. Are you a 'Dooku would've won if he wasn't holding back and Anakin wasn't pissed off' person or do you see it as Anakin just smashing the **** out Dooku?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
It's no rape tbh. Anakin is bottom of tier 9 and Maul, the top of tier 8. Anakin's victories come through massive strength advantage; Dooku, Ventress etc. a category Anakin isn't stomping in. I'll no doubt get roasted but I believe Bloodlusted Maul = Anakin
Maul still loses tho


There's no top or bottom's of Gillard's Tier 9. He specifically notes that when you get to that tier the fights can just go either way.

Dooku's top of tier 8. Maul = Kenobi in Sabers (But perhaps he's Dooku's equal by Rebels).

Anakin has a strength advantage over all the tier 8's. If Kenobi hadn't trained him, and Ani wasn't emotionally compromised then that fight would have been a lot more one sided.

What about a bloodlusted Anakin Lol. Whatever way you put it Maul loses this one. That's not a diss against Maul, because Dooku couldn't fair any better. And Kenobi shouldn't really fair any better either.

I. do. not. give. a. shit. about. Gillard's. tiering. system. FOR **** SAKE

Urmm, you brought it up?

I'm talking about my tiering system just my opinion

I kinda have to be arguing Maul > Anakin because I'm a believer of Vader > Anakin.
I'm workin on a little piece of why Season 3 Maul could possibly be > Vader (completely disregarding plot and Filoni's f.uckery)

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm interested on your take of the ROTS Dooku vs Anakin fight Sunrazor. Are you a 'Dooku would've won if he wasn't holding back and Anakin wasn't pissed off' person or do you see it as Anakin just smashing the **** out Dooku?

Dooku wasn't holding back to begin with, not in the later portions of the fight anyway. The RotS novel just has Anakin curbing him - not in skill, but in everything else. Other sources have them as about equal until Anakin taps into his anger.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I kinda have to be arguing Maul > Anakin because I'm a believer of Vader > Anakin.


Not likely tbh given Anakin was already > Count Dooku. Vader does seem to be > ROTS Anakin overall, but I doubt it's a huge difference.


Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm workin on a little piece of why Season 3 Maul could possibly be > Vader (completely disregarding plot and Filoni's f.uckery)


It's just been confirmed by too many different people working on Rebels that Vader > Maul tbh. Best to just accept it.

But Like I said, it's not a diss against Maul, given Count Dooku, Kenobi, all the Prequel greats (bar Yoda, Sidious and Mace) are below Vader.

Now what IS a Diss against Maul was him losing to Blind Kanan. Filoni ought to resign for that travesty.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm talking about my tiering system just my opinion Who gives a **** about your opinion Chingy huh?

Thought you would Beni <3

Zonakin sweeps.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Thought you would Beni <3

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Dooku's top of tier 8. Maul = Kenobi in Sabers (But perhaps he's Dooku's equal by Rebels).

Not sure about Dooku's tier. According to Gillard, he fought evenly two agressive fighters (yep, in Gillard's mind, Kenobi was "agressive". Until Anakin got his rage amp and became 9, Dooku was somehow superior on the screen. And he did well against Yoda.

Originally posted by McP
Not sure about Dooku's tier. According to Gillard, he fought evenly two agressive fighters (yep, in Gillard's mind, Kenobi was "agressive". Until Anakin got his rage amp and became 9, Dooku was somehow superior on the screen. And he did well against Yoda.


That's why I said top of tier 8. Gillard said there was a huge jump from 8 to 9 which means there's lots of room in the middle.

And Dooku can't be Gillard's tier 9, because Gillard made it clear Tier 9 fights can go either way. But clearly Yoda vs Dooku was a fight which Dooku couldn't possibly win.

Also DarthAnt says Gillard replied to his email and confirmed both Dooku and Maul were 8's.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also DarthAnt says Gillard replied to his email and confirmed both Dooku and Maul were 8's.

Are you kidding? Ant said, that Gillard said... far from believable argument.

On the other hand, might be true, since Dooku was quickly overhelmed by enraged Anakin.

Anyway, what I was trying to say, is that Gillard's levels are pointless, since Kenobi isn't "agressive" fighter, and Anakin - even enraged - isn't Sidious' or Yoda's equal. It was clearly suggested in Yoda's visioin - Anakin was able to beat Count Dooku in a similar way he did in ROTS, but still he was a non-factor as Yoda's backup against Sidious.
More then that, it seems, that Mace isn't the same as he was arround 2005th. Unlike Yoda or Sidious.

How on earth did he get Gillard's email in the first instance?

I don't know if any of you have worked jobs that involve collecting data, but these things aren't just floating around the internet, waiting for some teenager with too much time on his hands to find.

Anakin pretty comfortably

Originally posted by McP
Are you kidding? Ant said, that Gillard said... far from believable argument.

On the other hand, might be true, since Dooku was quickly overhelmed by enraged Anakin.

Anyway, what I was trying to say, is that Gillard's levels are pointless, since Kenobi isn't "agressive" fighter, and Anakin - even enraged - isn't Sidious' or Yoda's equal. It was clearly suggested in Yoda's visioin - Anakin was able to beat Count Dooku in a similar way he did in ROTS, but still he was a non-factor as Yoda's backup against Sidious.
More then that, it seems, that Mace isn't the same as he was arround 2005th. Unlike Yoda or Sidious.


Hey I didn't use that as an argument. Was just saying about Ant. But I know he does message these guys asking questions. And Gillard never did give Dooku a ranking, but like you said he couldn't be a 9 for obvious reasons.

Didn't Sidious overpower Anakin with TK and FL in Yoda's Vision? Had nothing to do with Sabers.

I didn't say he couldn't be 9. According to choreography, he actually could. Anakin never defeated him the same way, that Luke defeated Vader for example. Vader was quickly overhelmed, lost his energy and was beaten even before Luke svered his hand.
Dooku at the very end of the fight was even able to stop Anakin's assault and counter - then Anakin outmanuvered him, Dooku lost his balance, Anakin catched his wrists and severed his hands.

It's much more then a swordfight. The mental game that's going on is just as important as the moves. Dooku's weakness is that he's already beaten Anakin - and he's pretty sure he can do it again
--- Making of ROTS

I would say, that it strongly suggest, that Dooku's overconfidence is a great part of this fight. and That:

Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense. Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.

Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense! Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands.

seems like a fight of wo equals. There will be one winner and one looser, but it's a great fight.

Anakin would dummy Maul easy

I agree with some of the points you make Kurk but Maul won't win.

@ Thor and McP: https://postimg.org/image/jbangqnyt/

Not we can put this whole: "Mace = Dooku" crap to rest.

^ Well they were equal in Legends. Canon not so much.

Ffs

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
How on earth did he get Gillard's email in the first instance?

It's not hard. Dude has a stunt website with his contact info.

Quanchi should be sucking my d1ck right now for supporting Maul

I don't think you can be dissing Anakin's emotional state when Maul is all kinds of insane

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I don't think you can be dissing Anakin's emotional state when Maul is all kinds of insane
I would agree with you if this was a Maul before switching to his "proper" robotic legs when he was mentally disturbed from years of solitary confinement.
I'm saying that Anakin is held-back by his jedi principles which conflict inside him with fear/anger/hate. Remember in the RotS novel when Dooku pointed it out to Anakin and he became hindered?

Hmm

I know Anakin is a prodigy and he's ragdolled Ventress, Barriss etc. But it's not that impressive. By ROTS he couldn't even destroy Kenobi with a force push, sad considering Maul can choke him on a regular basis. So how big is Anakin's force advantage? He has a lot of raw power but it's unrefined :/

^ Maul never force pushed Kenobi whilst he was pushing back though.

Also Maul never rag dolled ROTS Kenobi, and there were usually circumstances to his ragdolling.

That said Maul definitely has the TK advantage over Kenobi, but I honestly don't think the difference is as extreme as some make out.

And given Skywalker seems to tank all of Dooku's Force Tk attacks, I really don't see that area being an advantage for Maul against Skywalker.

It's not because Ant's riding Gillard's quote to Walhalla that everone has to follow him... I think people are, again, forgetting the context around this quote. From a movie perspective, Gillard's perspective, both Anakin and Windu definitely are a tier 9 duelist like Yoda & Sidous, however that's only under the circumstances the movie brings us. To be more specific, Anakin's only reached that state when he fully released the anger he had been holding back since he was a boy under the inlfuence of Dooku's Dun Moch and Obi-Wan's apparent death while Mace reached this state when he was confronted with the fall of the Republic, his true love, and Sidious, being the most powerful Sith ever.

If Anakin or Windu really were tier 9 duelist under normal circumstances then Dooku would have been destroyed in Dark Disciple and Maul couldn't have holded off Windu in SoD since the gap between tier 8 and 9 is very noticeable according to this same Gillard.

Yep. Gillard's system is ****ed

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I know Anakin is a prodigy and he's ragdolled Ventress, Barriss etc. But it's not that impressive. By ROTS he couldn't even destroy Kenobi with a force push, sad considering Maul can choke him on a regular basis. So how big is Anakin's force advantage? He has a lot of raw power but it's unrefined :/
"circumstances varying"

Anakin is inconsistent in the force as is Maul tbh. Both are unrefined and aren't at their full potential but I give Anakin the slight edge simply because of his greater raw power.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It's not because Ant's riding Gillard's quote to Walhalla that everone has to follow him... I think people are, again, forgetting the context around this quote. From a movie perspective, Gillard's perspective, both Anakin and Windu definitely are a tier 9 duelist like Yoda & Sidous, however that's only under the circumstances the movie brings us. To be more specific, Anakin's only reached that state when he fully released the anger he had been holding back since he was a boy under the inlfuence of Dooku's Dun Moch and Obi-Wan's apparent death while Mace reached this state when he was confronted with the fall of the Republic, his true love, and Sidious, being the most powerful Sith ever.


I agree his rankings are only relevant to the movies (Prequels only), and can not be applied to the larger SW Universe. But they are still Canon to the movie fights IMO. Since I'd say "The Making of Revenge of the Sith" is a valid source.

And sure in Windu's case, he was only in the 1 fight in ROTS, so it's possible his ranking is for that one fight where Vapaad's loop plays a part. But that's just speculation.


Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
If Anakin or Windu really were tier 9 duelist under normal circumstances then Dooku would have been destroyed in Dark Disciple and Maul couldn't have holded off Windu in SoD since the gap between tier 8 and 9 is very noticeable according to this same Gillard.


Well Anakin clearly wasn't a level 9 yet until ROTS. Dooku a tier 8 has already held off Yoda a tier 9, so Maul temporarily holding off Windu is possible.

But again Gillard's tiers are only relevant to the movies: Episodes 1-3. Which is useful when powerscaling movie versions of the characters only.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I agree his rankings are only relevant to the movies (Prequels only), and can not be applied to the larger SW Universe. But they are still Canon to the movie fights IMO. Since I'd say "The Making of Revenge of the Sith" is a valid source.

To be honest, the other sources are mostly based on and expanding on the movies so the ranking should be translatable to the rest of the universe since it's about the same characters.



It isn't speculation if it's based on a logical thinking process. Gillard never made a difference between a normal cirucmstances Windu and the one we saw in the movie but we know that there is a difference since the RotS novelization makes it pretty clear.



Dark Disciple takes place several months before RotS and in that novel Anakin was only Dooku's equal (or at least pretty close) so I doubt that he could grow so extremely fast that he's making a "huge jump" from tier 8 to 9 in a matter of months. The difference between Yoda/Dooku and Maul/Mace & Secura is that Yoda was pushing Dooku back from the beginning (and would have overwhelmed him had he not escaped) while Maul was effectively holding off both Windu and Secura so if a normal circumstances Windu really is a tier 9 duelist then Maul would have been fighting for his life from the very beginning, especially if Mace had the aid of Aayla.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
To be honest, the other sources are mostly based on and expanding on the movies so the ranking should be translatable to the rest of the universe since it's about the same characters.


I suppose. Just pointing out, it was made for the films only, by a guy who only worked on the films and not the EU.



Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It isn't speculation if it's based on a logical thinking process. Gillard never made a difference between a normal cirucmstances Windu and the one we saw in the movie but we know that there is a difference since the RotS novelization makes it pretty clear.


True, and given Gillard ranked Mace a 9 for ROTS only (he never confirmed what Mace was in AOTC), and given he was only in that 1 fight in ROTS, then it's safe to assume Mace was a 9 with the superconducting loop on Sidious in place.




Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Dark Disciple takes place several months before RotS and in that novel Anakin was only Dooku's equal (or at least pretty close) so I doubt that he could grow so extremely fast that he's making a "huge jump" from tier 8 to 9 in a matter of months. The difference between Yoda/Dooku and Maul/Mace & Secura is that Yoda was pushing Dooku back from the beginning (and would have overwhelmed him had he not escaped) while Maul was effectively holding off both Windu and Secura so if a normal circumstances Windu really is a tier 9 duelist then Maul would have been fighting for his life from the very beginning, especially if Mace had the aid of Aayla.


Well even if we ignore Gillard and just go by the novels, it's clear Anakin as he's operating against Dooku in ROTS is significantly above Anakin as he went against Dooku in DD.

So either way he had grown in power in those few months, whether it's by a small or large amount. It's actually confirmed he grew vastly more powerful from the end of S5 to ROTS. So if there's only a small improvement by DD, then the majority of that vast improvement must be in those last few months prior to ROTS.

I think it's always been clear that Dooku is either a low tier 9 or a high tier 8. Given he does seem to have been a tier 8, he must have been right at the top of that tier. So I still wouldn't expect other level 8's like Maul or Kenobi to perform as well as Dooku against a tier 9. But then he didn't do to well against ROTS Skywalker once he set lose, so it may just be down to a clash of styles.

Windu without reflecting Sidious's power is possibly Dooku level, which would explain him struggling to subdue Maul.

Mace's Vaapad power hasn't been confirmed by any Canon source, so that's not safe to assume at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mace's Vaapad power hasn't been confirmed by any Canon source, so that's not safe to assume at all.


ROTS Novel?


Also Ultimate SW confirms Mace's form skirts the dark side and Absolutely Everything You Need to Know confirms Form 7 as Juyo/Vapaad.

So it's a good bet that's still canon. Although we could use a more in depth explanation on how it works tbh.

The RotS novel isn't Canon. And though it's possible it's far from certain imo and at the very least Windu seems above Dooku as a fighter in the new continuity.

^ I think he always was above Dooku in Canon. But I dunno, struggling to subdue Maul in SOD gives me some doubts.

They've kept Vapaad in canon so I'm guessing they still intend to have that factored in the Mace vs Palpatine fight.

^ Gross low-balling of Maul. Mace isn't just going to one shot him

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
^ Gross low-balling of Maul. Mace isn't just going to one shot him


He would if he was operating at Palpatine level.

Edit: Or at least make short work of him.

Also Maul with back up from 2 Death Warch guys actually defeated Mace and Secura Lol. I don't think 2 Death Watch guys would make a difference against Palpatine.

Maul never defeated Mace (certainly not in a dueling context that'd be relevant here). He ran because he knew an explosion was incoming, and that ended the fight.

Well obviously the Death Watch warriors aren't going to get Sabers out to fight. They just shot the missile at Mace+Secura which Maul dodged.

Mace+Secura were KO'd so I don't see how they weren't defeated. Obviously Maul didn't solo them, but you really see Maul + 2 Death Watch guys taking out Sidious?

Sidious literally walked through Maul's Death Watch guards without even budging.

Yeah, because Maul knew it was coming. Also, IIRC, didn't he plan with his forces before the Jedi came? And yes, I agree it would never happen to Sidious.

Obviously Sidious >> Mace. Regardless, Mace too would easily cut through a pair of Death Watch guards in a direct contest. Your comparisons really aren't valid.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, because Maul knew it was coming. Also, IIRC, didn't he plan with his forces before the Jedi came? And yes, I agree it would never happen to Sidious.


They just shouted at Maul, Maul dodged and it hit Mace. There was no prior planning. Not that they showed us anyway.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Obviously Sidious >> Mace. Regardless, Mace too would easily cut through a pair of Death Watch guards in a direct contest. Your comparisons really aren't valid.


That's the point. Sidious didn't even need to cut them. He hardly budged. Just walked through them.

Sidious battered Maul + Opress together in a pretty one sided fight, whereas Mace + Secura basically lost to Maul + 2 Deathwatch guards. Sure that shot surprised them, but clearly that wouldn't and couldn't happen to Sidious.

Well, in fairness, that's pretty bad writing to have Mace KO'd by one of those. Fair enough on the lack of planning for Maul, but it still reeks of him having an advantage in that scenario.

Still not a valid comparison. As I said, it's very obvious that Sidious is well beyond Mace. However, Mace alone is capable of beating Maul every time, which is virtually a fact, and one that I imagine everybody here would be capable of agreeing with me on. Your comparison essentially hinges on PIS.

So the point your making Thor is Mace isn't Sidious tier? Well I don't like Dooku and Mace being in the same tier as Obi-Wan and co so let's just put Sheev and Yoda in God tier, Mace and Dooku in the tier below and then Anakin, Maul, Kenobi...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, in fairness, that's pretty bad writing to have Mace KO'd by one of those. Fair enough on the lack of planning for Maul, but it still reeks of him having an advantage in that scenario.


Well let's not just totally forget Mace had another Jedi on side.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Still not a valid comparison. As I said, it's very obvious that Sidious is well beyond Mace. However, Mace alone is capable of beating Maul every time, which is virtually a fact, and one that I imagine everybody here would be capable of agreeing with me on. Your comparison essentially hinges on PIS.


I've never suggested Maul could take Mace. Maul would lose every time to Mace. Although SOD suggests he would put up a fight first. Unlike against Sidious.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
So the point your making Thor is Mace isn't Sidious tier?


Doesn't seem like it from SOD (talking about Canon only right now).

There's also the fact that Mace was stalemating a weakened Mother Talzin off Dathomir in TCW S6. Whereas Sidious was macthing (possibly overpowering) her on Dathomir.

So yeah SOD seems to have confirmed Canon Sidious > Mace to me personally.


Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Well I don't like Dooku and Mace being in the same tier as Obi-Wan and co so let's just put Sheev and Yoda in God tier, Mace and Dooku in the tier below and then Anakin, Maul, Kenobi...


Except ROTS Anakin is above Dooku, and even TCW Anakin is Dooku tier.


Point is when Mace beat Sidious Vapaad must have still played a role for him to fight exceptionally well in that particular fight. As was the case in Legends.

Yes Thor is saying Mace is not on Sidious's level in sabers ordinarily which I agree with.

It was his first go with Vaapad channeling, what's to say he can't refine that to the point where he can channel ****ing everything and be Sidious tier? He's Obviously not as powerful as someone like Sidious, Revan etc. but he takes that power and uses it to himself much like Vitiate doing bullshit rituals to make himself almost God. So he's not as powerful as the top Sith Lords with his own power, but everytime he comes up against one what's to say he can't beat them as he's already stated to be an equal of ROTS Sidious with channeling on his test run

He can reflect a Sith Lord's own power back on them assuming he needs to. He's already more powerful than Maul so wouldn't need to in his case. And he's already equally powerful to Dooku so again there may be no major advantage in that scenario either.

But when he's fighting equally, Shatterpoint seems to give him the advantage.

So yeah he'd probably take almost all other Sith Lords including Vitatie.

Mace getting KO'ed by a missle has little bearing on his ability in lightsaber combat tbh but I would agree that Sheev seems quite a bit better a combatant than Windu overall.

That's a dangerous no-limits fallacy imo. Combatants have different strengths and weaknesses. Saying Mace has an auto-win is silly. He couldn't beat Dooku. Theres also no proof that he could replicate the fight if someone were to use something other than lightning, like sorcery, telepathy or tk.

With all of Mace's inner darkness I only think it'd be easier for Vitiate to dominate him like he did Revan and Malak, personally.

I suppose by bringing up Vitiate I'm skipping around between Canon and Legends, where I was originally just speculating on Vapaad in Canon.

Dooku hasn't stalemated or beaten Mace in Canon.

Canon's weird though. Jedi can get sudden unexplained amps like Kanan against Maul, and Rey against Kylo Ren. So there's various ways Mace could have been amped against Palpatine as a one off. So he'd need more showings to prove he's consistently on Sidious's level. Because so far, his other showings are not displaying that IMO.

But then given Lucas himself said Mace can compete against Sidious, Vapaad's still the most plausible explanation.

I don't think anyone believes that Mace is naturally a rival of Sidious.

In Canon, it's possible.

Canon includes the RotS novel.

Nope nope.