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*No TP from Valk

Round 1: The Trainees are in a circle surrounding Valkorion

Round 2: Starting distance 5 feet

Who wins?

Valkorion evaporates in the mere presence of one POD trainee Bane

Very tempted to report both of you for spite

To call him a trainee would make it easy to underestimate him- even the lesser students of the academy were said to be stronger than many of the sith on the field, and Bane was already quite impressive.

That said, Valk is really powerful, so in scenario 1 he may be able to manage. May, it's not easy.

Now, scenario 2, there's just no time to defend, he's dead when everyone turns on their lightsabers, he can't hope to kill enough before that happens.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Very tempted to report both of you for spite



One Bane is enough to take down Valkorion.

Originally posted by Q99
To call him a trainee would make it easy to underestimate him- even the lesser students of the academy were said to be stronger than many of the sith on the field, and Bane was already quite impressive.

That said, Valk is really powerful, so in scenario 1 he may be able to manage. May, it's not easy.

Now, scenario 2, there's just no time to defend, he's dead when everyone turns on their lightsabers, he can't hope to kill enough before that happens.
Lel

I remember when people would actually discuss Bane, rather than pretend every mention of his name was a joke of some kind...

I'm not laughing at Bane. I'm laughing at your thinking the guy who can block lightsabers with his hand and can one shot an army of Force users in his face can't deal with 10 low-skill versions of anyone.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not laughing at Bane. I'm laughing at your thinking the guy who can block lightsabers with his hand and can one shot an army of Force users in his face can't deal with 10 low-skill versions of anyone.

Again, 'low skill' is relative, even his fellow students were lords in all-but-name, Bane was taking on seriously badass experienced lords, and sure, he can block lightsabers with his hands, but he only has two hands and there's ten Banes.

What part of army of Force users in his face don't you understand? And Bane had stunted training, and the only "seriously badass experienced lord" he fought he was losing to in sabers.

Bandon solos these scrubs.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What part of army of Force users in his face don't you understand?

Normally armies don't get to surrounded someone at five feet.

And heck, most random mook force users are well below this Bane. A small number of strong force users is much more dangerous than a large number of mooks, this is well known.





But he still beat that one, and, hey, there's 10 of him!

Originally posted by Q99
Normally armies don't get to surrounded someone at five feet.

And heck, most random mook force users are well below this Bane. A small number of strong force users is much more dangerous than a large number of mooks, this is well known.





But he still beat that one, and, hey, there's 10 of him!
Valkorion was surrounded, in a situation that outmatched the Outlander, who quite frankly is more impressive than PoD Bane, and solo'd an army of Force Users. That had him surrounded. And was an army. It could not be more simple.

With the environment, which won't help him here, I'm afraid.

Rip Q99. Do you realize that Valkorion doesn't need a physical body to do anything? He's actually weaker when restricted to his physical body. He'd very simply **** up the entirety of the BoD almost effortlessly even when surrounded. His first ritual consumed 8,000 Dark Lords. His second wiped out an entire Force Nexus; and you think 10 PoD babes have the slightest chance? Ten DoE babes wouldn't do much better but would still get raped so hard their colons would turn inside out.

And Carth, ILS, and Troc, again, still incredibly tempted to report you guys for spite. Goddamn if you guys are going to at least do it in a way that doesn't kill brain cells as people read it. Like shit, just don't.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
And Carth, ILS, and Troc, again, still incredibly tempted to report you guys for spite. Goddamn if you guys are going to at least do it in a way that doesn't kill brain cells as people read it. Like shit, just don't. Report away, you drunken reveller. Darth Bane would eviscerate Valkorishit.

Ask the mods how is it possible to report more than one person for an OP while you're at it, m8.

Fair point FS, plus not really worth it

Originally posted by Q99
To call him a trainee would make it easy to underestimate him- even the lesser students of the academy were said to be stronger than many of the sith on the field, and Bane was already quite impressive.

That said, Valk is really powerful, so in scenario 1 he may be able to manage. May, it's not easy.

Now, scenario 2, there's just no time to defend, he's dead when everyone turns on their lightsabers, he can't hope to kill enough before that happens.
My friend, are you serious?

I do not underestimate Darth Bane at personal capacity but I believe that you are overreaching here.

Valkorion can unleash a powerful Force-wave to disperse his opponents in both scenarios and then proceed to bombard them with his Force powers to incapacitate/kill them.

Valkorion eliminated an entire Dark Council once, remember?

Valkorion can also block Lightsaber strikes with bear hands.

Weren't all the rituals you name done in a body? Sure, he can transfer bodies, but he still needs one to do stuff.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend, are you serious?

I do not underestimate Darth Bane at personal capacity but I believe that you are overreaching here.

Valkorion can unleash a powerful Force-wave to disperse his opponents in both scenarios and then proceed to bombard them with his Force powers to incapacitate/kill them.

Valkorion eliminated an entire Dark Council once, remember?

Solid points. So, when he has room to work, he should kill them all.





He also only has two hands. In the five-foot scenario, that's a lot more than two sabers.

Valkorion stomping a Dark Council and two-shotting Tol Braga & HoT's strike team indicate his easily winning this.

When Legend and AP talk the most sense on the thread.

He was in a physical body for the first, yes, however his true power lies in his Entity form. He's been stated by many people within the mythos to literally be the Dark Side Incarnate. He is actually immortal now, not just able to live for a longsss time. Not to mention the fact that he completely wiped out an army of Skytroopers and Zakuulan Knights with just one quite simply effortlessly released energy wave that plowed down large metal walls and completely ****ed up literally everything 100 Banes would still get completely smashed

Nah Valkorion isn't at his strongest in entity form, otherwise he wouldn't bother inhabiting a physical body, and wouldn't be using the Outlander as a proxy to a) use his powers b) defeat Arcann.

It appears much like Exar Kun there are various powers unavaliable to him in spirit form, and its even possible that as a spirit he's getting gradually weaker.

Heck lets not forget that for five years he's been seemingly incapable of doing anything to stop his children.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
bear hands.

I think he means that each hand has the strength of a bear.

You raise a good point, however, Valkorion has stated that he no longer needs a physical body, and is truly immortal. He only used the physical bodies as a means to an end

By "trainee Bane" I assume we meant carthages brain-dead definition of that as in Bane at the end of the book, right?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
You raise a good point, however, Valkorion has stated that he no longer needs a physical body, and is truly immortal. He only used the physical bodies as a means to an end He says he no longer needs Voices, Hands etc. and yet when you question him as to whether he needs you, i.e. a vessel, he says "perhaps" - he's only truly immortal in the respect he can shed his physical form effortlessly, and can't be harmed with its destruction, but it's still a needed tool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By "trainee Bane" I assume we meant carthages brain-dead definition of that as in Bane at the end of the book, right? LMFAO, probably.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By "trainee Bane" I assume we meant carthages brain-dead definition of that as in Bane at the end of the book, right?

No moron, Bane as of getting defeated by featless Sirak.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
When Legend and AP talk the most sense on the thread.

And ten trainee Anakins would be more interesting.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And ten trainee Anakins would be more interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg&t=0m14s

x10 tbh, though maybe some bump into each other.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion stomping a Dark Council and two-shotting Tol Braga & HoT's strike team indicate his easily winning this.

With some distance, sure. But having multiple foes behind him and completely flanking him is a situation he'd never get into in a real fight.


I don't think he could beat the same dark council or strike team in this position.

Have you seen the bit where the Outlander uses Valky's powers to save Lana? He just instantly wipes out everybody instantly and they're easily 100 strong. They're surrounding and beating them, yet just get rofl****ed instantly

No, he hasn't. Q99 won't let not actually knowing how a situation went down stop him from disagreeing.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Have you seen the bit where the Outlander uses Valky's powers to save Lana? He just instantly wipes out everybody instantly and they're easily 100 strong. They're surrounding and beating them, yet just get rofl****ed instantly

Thats a bit of an understatement.

it's funny because it's too true

There were hardly 100 guys, no need to exaggerate. Even still there was a large group and that power would affect these 10 regardless of how many were killed in the ambush battle thing.

Yeah there is little room to debate he wouldn't be able to blow them away in an instant, and from then on its just a case of picking them off one by one, or several at once. It's not as if individually they are strong enough to hurt him.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
There were hardly 100 guys, no need to exaggerate. Even still there was a large group and that power would affect these 10 regardless of how many were killed in the ambush battle thing.
You do realize everything in game is scaled down? It probably was about a hundred, honestly. This is a game where twelve people was a stand in for a thousand strong army. One of which the Wrath took down easily.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You do realize everything in game is scaled down? It probably was about a hundred, honestly. This is a game where twelve people was a stand in for a thousand strong army. One of which the Wrath took down easily.

I know it's scaled down, but we can't just speculate that there were 100 guys either. It's not like Valk needs to have destroyed 100 guys to destroy 10 Banes anyway.

It was hundreds of guys because you see Arcann send squadrons, not because we're just guessing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It was hundreds of guys because you see Arcann send squadrons, not because we're just guessing.

Ok but how many squadrons did he send exactly?

Because I counted 3 ships total, the first 2 waves were beaten before help arrived and then the last ship showed up which is where Valk took over.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Have you seen the bit where the Outlander uses Valky's powers to save Lana? He just instantly wipes out everybody instantly and they're easily 100 strong. They're surrounding and beating them, yet just get rofl****ed instantly

I have not, and you are welcome to show it 1. Are they *within five feet in all directions?*

That's enough for immediate strikes.


Basically what *I'm* saying is a five foot surround is a fairly absurd situation that one is unlikely to ever have in combat, and give even outmatched foes a chance they would not realistically be able to achieve were they not started out like this.


Three fast standing directly behind you in lightsaber reach (when there's no possibility of stepping forward or to the side, and nor will turning prevent there being three from directly behind) is, in it's way, a lot more dangerous than 100 people who actually have to approach and deal with force powers and such.


1 Anyone here remember this is supposed to be a place to debate Vs, you know, show evidence and argue, not just show up at a thread and scoff for everyone not knowing the answer? I don't mind being wrong, I do want people to actually state and show their case.

Originally posted by Q99
I have not, and you are welcome to show it 1. Are they *within five feet in all directions?*

That's enough for immediate strikes.


Basically what *I'm* saying is a five foot surround is a fairly absurd situation that one is unlikely to ever have in combat, and give even outmatched foes a chance they would not realistically be able to achieve were they not started out like this.


Three fast standing directly behind you in lightsaber reach (when there's no possibility of stepping forward or to the side, and nor will turning prevent there being three from directly behind) is, in it's way, a lot more dangerous than 100 people who actually have to approach and deal with force powers and such.


1 Anyone here remember this is supposed to be a place to debate Vs, you know, show evidence and argue, not just show up at a thread and scoff for everyone not knowing the answer? I don't mind being wrong, I do want people to actually state and show their case.
watch?v=D34rwrhoaDs
0:41-1:14

Oh, yea, that's what I thought, definitely not gonna do in scenario 2 (though it handles scenario 1). That's like a second or two from starting to the shockwave going out, where the focus is just on charging the power and not dodging around or anything.

In the 5 foot scenario, the Banes just need to extend their arms. If both sides all started their actions at the same time (when combat starts), by the time the shockwave hit the sabers would connect.

Look here my friend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D34rwrhoaDs&t=0m20s

Valkorion is able to intervene with his powers to save Lana from a lightsaber seconds away from killing her.

And even if this isn't an accurate demonstration of his corporeal powers, it stands to reason that a being of his power would have perceptions and reactions infinitely greater than these trainee Banes.

Ergo Valkorion can and will attack before they can, and probably at a much faster rate than he did above seeing as he was channeling his power through an inferior vessel. And frankly assuming he is able its GG for the Banes. They have no hope of defeating him at long range.

Heck all Valkorion really needs to do is encase himself in a Force barrier, and their blades will bounce harmlessly off him. This assuming they even choose to attack, all at once within 5 feet of each other, where they are more likely to impale themselves.

EDIT: DMB beat me too it, but the point stands.

EDIT: It occurs to me that Valk may not even require a gesture, lesser Force users haven't. Meaning he could blow them away with a thought.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Valkorion is able to intervene with his powers to save Lana from a lightsaber seconds away from killing her.


But look- that's *one* foe with his arm way back in a swing. It's a second or two to connect.

This is ten foes, of almost certainly higher level, who only have to jab forward and rely on the quantity of their blades.




So? The fight starts at the same time for everyone. A quick stab looks a good deal faster than the total time of that move. It may start sooner but still end later.


It's like the Dark Empire Palpatine Force Storm issue- DE Palps' force storm could wipe out almost anyone, but it takes enough time to charge that a powerful foe won't give him the chance and he's better off using saber. The time of this force shockwave is faster than a force storm of course, but the foes are in an absurdly good position to act fast.





Hah, impale themselves? Not of they simply do one-handed stabs and such, and they're not *idiots*. Plus the force, foresight will show them enough to not get in each other's way.

Indeed, the positioning rather forces them to chose small but quick attacks, which is all that's needed.


And why would they not chose to attack? Under similar logic, one might say 'assuming Valkorion even chooses to attack.' There's no reason for anyone not to attack. Plus there's 10 of them. If half chose not to attack, the situation stands.

Never assume the enemy is just going to politely not attack.

You're ignoring the most critical points, namely that Valkorion can unleash an attack (which I'd add need not nearly be as potent) at far greater speeds and failing that, encase himself in a barrier.

My off hand remark that they might assess the situation first before going in stabby stabby is hardly the most important factor here.

Valkorion doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can attack faster than ALL the Banes.

Q99 still trying his hardest is kek-worthy, if not admirable.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Valkorion doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can attack faster than ALL the Banes.

So you don't think Valk is faster than water?

Bane wins by virtue of being better at holding a freakin stick better than the poorly written sheev clone can.

Wow a KMC Star Wars versus thread achieved something, Valkorion is a one-shotting army buster. I wonder how many people will jump all over Palp's Stormtrooper legion feat.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Valkorion doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can attack faster than ALL the Banes. He only needs to move faster than one to move faster than all of them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He only needs to move faster than one to move faster than all of them.

Not exactly. If he moves faster than one *but* with a move that only affects some of them, then the unaffected ones will still be able to strike before he can act against them specifically. So if he's saber-faster enough to strike, say, 3-4 Banes, then he's dead. If he can lightning blast half of them, same deal.


The moves that can hit everyone seemed not quick enough.




It really does need to be as potent- if he only strikes some of them- like, if he shoots lightning instead and blasts away half the Banes in front of him that doesn't stop the other Banes.

His big shockwave, from the video, looks too slow, it was against a lesser foe making a *huge* windup. What could he do that hits *all ten* before they can strike?




There's no 'failing that,' he has to make a split-second choice, he can't do something and then fall back on another move. And in melee, we know that he hasn't fallen back on a barrier, he's used energy absorption, a faster move but one that can only handle so much at once.




You, btw, have been worthless this thread.

Beniboyblin, Emperordmb, and I have been making arguments, you've been demonstrating nothing. I don't think you quite get how debates work, namely, one is supposed to question and test answers.

Originally posted by Q99
Not exactly. If he moves faster than one *but* with a move that only affects some of them, then the unaffected ones will still be able to strike before he can act against them specifically. So if he's saber-faster enough to strike, say, 3-4 Banes, then he's dead. If he can lightning blast half of them, same deal.


The moves that can hit everyone seemed not quick enough.Because a planet killer can't TK 10 trainee Banes at once. My goodness, repeating myself is getting rather tiresome.

1. Valkorion was channeling his power through an inferior vessel, so its going to require a longer period of exertion.
2. He doesn't need to generate nearly as much energy here just to knock the Banes back, who are five feet away from him.
3. We have little reason to believe he'd even need to gesture, when Caedus is ragdolling prime-Jaina without one.

For all these reasons he should be able to unleash an attack before any of the Bane's can strike.Valkorion is an intelligent being, aware of his own strengths and can see events in slow motion, he's more than capable of calculating whether or not a TK attack would be sufficient without actually trying it, and if he deemed it was not, he would conjure a barrier instead.

The fact he hasn't used such a tactic, being hardly a point when he's never been in this kind of situation. And of course he's logically capable.

This being one of a myriad of powers he has at his disposal, giving him a myriad of options. Frankly he should be logically capable of teleporting, considering lesser contemporaries like Revan and Jadus can. Assaulting their minds simultaneously is also surely an option.

Altogether its just not logical to conclude Valkorion, one of the most powerful Force users ever, would be ensnared by this trap.

Its really stupid to think that Bane's can touch him before he can unleash a wave attack tbh. If there is gonna be a debate, it should be about how well can Banes handle his force attacks.

What feats does Bane have to suggest he can tank Valky's attacks? .

The way the wave was actually described by Lana afterwards makes it sound like it happened in a instant anyway. But what does she know? She was only there and everything.

Valkorion was operating on such a speed level that other force users appeared to be frozen. He very specifically clarifies that time hasn't stopped, which proves that he is simply that fast.

Like I said, I'm open to 10 Banes winning this if someone can present good enough force feats for PoD Bane.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because a planet killer can't TK 10 trainee Banes at once. My goodness, repeating myself is getting rather tiresome.

1. Valkorion was channeling his power through an inferior vessel, so its going to require a longer period of exertion.
2. He doesn't need to generate nearly as much energy here just to knock the Banes back, who are five feet away from him.
3. We have little reason to believe he'd even need to gesture, when Caedus is ragdolling prime-Jaina without one.

For all these reasons he should be able to unleash an attack before any of the Bane's can strike.Valkorion is an intelligent being, aware of his own strengths and can see events in slow motion, he's more than capable of calculating whether or not a TK attack would be sufficient without actually trying it, and if he deemed it was not, he would conjure a barrier instead.

The fact he hasn't used such a tactic, being hardly a point when he's never been in this kind of situation. And of course he's logically capable.

This being one of a myriad of powers he has at his disposal, giving him a myriad of options. Frankly he should be logically capable of teleporting, considering lesser contemporaries like Revan and Jadus can. Assaulting their minds simultaneously is also surely an option.

Altogether its just not logical to conclude Valkorion, one of the most powerful Force users ever, would be ensnared by this trap.

I would be participating but you have it more than covered

You think 10 DOE Bane's would get raped by Valkorion. You're making the right choice leaving this side of the argument to Beni tbh.

He's completely right, DMB. It's laughable that this thread is still going. It should be clear how easy it would be for Valkorion to just wipe em out. He's capapble of slowing down time, and by doing such would be able to very simply Force jump or teleport out of the way it just put up a barrier or blast them away with a Force wave.

He means you're a shit debater.

Basically yeah

You should argue for Bane, DMB. Carthage wants your rage. Give it to him.

That may be; but I argue for the right side in this case

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You should argue for Bane, DMB. Carthage wants your rage. Give it to him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because a planet killer can't TK 10 trainee Banes at once. no expression

It turns out raw output and the ability to do many different things are very different things- especially as we have seen Valk in duels, he doesn't do 10x as much at once as others.

Consider the Death Star superlaser. Can kill a planet, but still only kills capital ships one at a time.

Or again, Dark Empire Palpatine. His force storms can kill almost any foe, but they're slow enough to gather that they are not much use in a duel. Same principle.

Big force powers are almost always slower even when done by the extremely powerful. And here we've put the other side in a situation of extreme speed advantage by putting them at point-blank range completely surrounding. The deck is stacked to provide a handicap to the normally doomed side.



Does a weaker vessel really affect speed of a *force ability*, or just power?

And note, even half the time would still be slower than a quick lightsaber blow, that was visibly not the quickest of techniques.



Again, you're assuming he can significantly reduce the speed of the move when he was aiming for speed in the video to begin with, not taking his time- and note also the ones he blew away were mooks, these are not.




Is barrier fast enough? Have we seen him do that super-quick? Barrier tends to be a slower defense put up if someone knows something big is coming.

Simply asking to assume he can do force powers that are usually not super-quick reflex because he's fast is other ways is, IMO, asking for a fair amount of generosity on his side.



Originally posted by Sinious
Its really stupid to think that Bane's can touch him before he can unleash a wave attack tbh. If there is gonna be a debate, it should be about how well can Banes handle his force attacks.


Issue- His wave attack as shown was not all that fast, and all the Banes' need to do is, pretty much, extend their sword arm, the quickest of attacks.

It's yet to be demonstrated that he can pull that off first, you're just asking us to assume it.




Originally posted by Tondemonai
He's completely right, DMB. It's laughable that this thread is still going. It should be clear how easy it would be for Valkorion to just wipe em out. He's capapble of slowing down time, and by doing such would be able to very simply Force jump or teleport out of the way it just put up a barrier or blast them away with a Force wave.

Originally posted by Sinious
Valkorion was operating on such a speed level that other force users appeared to be frozen. He very specifically clarifies that time hasn't stopped, which proves that he is simply that fast.

Like I said, I'm open to 10 Banes winning this if someone can present good enough force feats for PoD Bane.


He's capable of slowing down perception, but note how when an actual force power is used, that's cut back into real-time.

Meaning, his shockwave isn't something that can be done in that slow-time mode, only conversation and the like.



Also, Tondemonai - I don't see you providing any arguments.

What is with this latest group of, "Oh, it's horrible that we're having to actually discuss things out/let us scoff at those actually putting down an argument" posters? It's silly, and just makes debating skills rusty at best. Even if one knows the outcome, it is much better to present the arguments.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The way the wave was actually described by Lana afterwards makes it sound like it happened in a instant anyway. But what does she know? She was only there and everything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

The way the wave was actually described by Lana afterwards makes it sound like it happened in a instant anyway. But what does she know? She was only there and everything.

You do know we saw the wave on video, yes? We don't have to guess.

TIL: Q99, pioneer of more numbers is more better, who not only just saw this for the first time, and has not played this game, is a bigger authority than those who have and one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Empire in what actually happened.
In short, no one is guessing but you, and you being a contrarian has gone from slightly amusing to very stupid.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
TIL: Q99, pioneer of more numbers is more better, who not only just saw this for the first time, and has not played this game, is a bigger authority than those who have and one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Empire in what actually happened.


I like how you're trying to sidestep that we all saw the same scene in the same video.


Does having played the game make the video play faster?


I also find it funny how you think more fighters is not useful to have in a fight.


You should learn to debate from DMB and Beniboybling, they're a lot better at it.

Why would I debate with someone blatantly ignoring what's in game? I mean on even the most basic knowledge like the speed of an attack? This isn't a debate; it's you being dumb for no reason at all. Your opinion doesn't override that of someone actually in game, regardless of how impressive your internet random credentials may be. You've given absolutely nothing to show one Bane, let alone ten can defend against Valkorion at any speed. You've given no feats for him that show why his skill is superior to that of an entire army. In fact, you've pretty much just been saying, Nah-nah-nah," in many more words. As much as I'd like to humor you, you aren't worth anyone's time or effort.

Lana wasn't even paying attention to the Outlander. She was a little focused on not dying. So of course when a random wave of power washes over everything and takes out the knights and skytroopers, she's gonna be like "WTF just happened?"

You can clearly see everyone running around and blasterbolts flying, so it's not like it's a time stopped for everyone else type thing.

Actually, she says, when you don't tell her Valkorion is there, that the Knights were there one second, then gone the next, and not only did she not see it, but no one, including Koth, who kind of was playing attention, saw it. This coupled with the fact that the Knight who was in mid-swing to hit Lana, and actually does if you don't use Valkorion's power, means it had to happen really fast. Especially since neither her nor Senya could sense the source.

Originally posted by Q99
It turns out raw output and the ability to do many different things are very different things- especially as we have seen Valk in duels, he doesn't do 10x as much at once as others.

Consider the Death Star superlaser. Can kill a planet, but still only kills capital ships one at a time.

Or again, Dark Empire Palpatine. His force storms can kill almost any foe, but they're slow enough to gather that they are not much use in a duel. Same principle.

Big force powers are almost always slower even when done by the extremely powerful. And here we've put the other side in a situation of extreme speed advantage by putting them at point-blank range completely surrounding. The deck is stacked to provide a handicap to the normally doomed side.Or instead of making gross generalisations via considerably inaccurate comparisons between generating a Force wave and conjuring a frikken Force storm, or obliterating a planet, we can look at Valkorion, who at the high end is able to consume a planet in minutes.

Relative to that this isn't a "big force power" at all in comparison, and we have no basis to assume it will be slow.Yes, in the same way that it takes more time to drink juice through a straw.He didn't blow them away, he killed them. And they were spread across a wide area. Of course less exertion is required to knock some trainee Banes on their assess when Darth Malgus is blowing away four of the protagonists at once, with a push.

Regardless, Fresh is correct tbh. If you refuse Valkorion's help Lana is struck down instantly, and yet if you accept it seemingly takes 5 seconds for the power to reach her. Obviously she would be dead by then, and its artistic license rather than realism that's behind this visual depiction.
Oh really now. When, where? I can't think of a single instance when someone has need time to conjure a barrier.

Heck we even see Arcann conjure one in a fraction of a second to block Valkorion's lightning in the very same game.

Finally I'd appreciate it if you didn't omit parts of my argument however, it comes across as disingenuous. I'm referring to this:Though of course I'm happy to assume a concession.

The fact that Freshest still has to explain this is indeed annoying. I still want to see some showings from Bane.

As Vitiate, he used Force Barrier to protect himself from T3-M4's flamethrower. He put it up instantly, being fast enough to not only disengage his attack and completely refocus on protecting himself. This was an almost instantaneous action; which is all he needs to do to protect himself against the Bane's. Once protected from their attacks, he can simply expand it and release a wave of Force energy, knocking them back, followed up by releasing a similar storm of FL upon them as we saw against the strike team lead by Tol Braga. We have seen, however, that Bane is capable of moving extremely fast. This is, of course, long before his prime and showings of moving fast enough to look like a blur and dodge rain. Carthage stated this is trainee Bane when he lost to Sirak. With this in mind, it can very simply be deducted that Valkorion will be able to protect himself fast enough to survive and retaliate. Bane doesn't have enough feats as of the given incarnation to be able to win.

You know when I first played this, I was thinking more about how powerful he had to be, not how fast his attacks were. By the fact that this, and both of his attacks against Arcann and Marr show tremendous speed. Valkorion gets even more respect.

Originally posted by Sinious
The fact that Freshest still has to explain this is indeed annoying. I still want to see some showings from Bane.
For End of POD Bane: Being the most powerful dark lord in centuries, generating a force wave powerful enough to liquidate a man with only the focal point and bring down the temple of the ancients without the focal point, being more potent than Ambria's nexus as well as the sorceress who devastated Ambria, being able to char people with lightning (technically ROT, but happened within a few hours of POD at most), conjuring a powerful force lightning storm a little while after learning how to use Force lightning, being capable of using the force to shield himself from flier cannon blasts (which couldn't be deflected via lightsaber blades), throttling Fohargh, ragdolling a Sith Master, injuring at least 4 Tuk'ata (including an alpha male) with a telekinetic throw, literally crushing Qordis, devastating a campsite with a single force wave (technically ROT, but again a few hours at most after the end of POD), and a few days after POD he used the Force to survive a ship crash which left a kilometer long swath through the jungle and reduced his ship to scrap.

Draw whatever conclusions you will from there, but 10 POD Bane's clearly far outstrip the forces Valklander hit with that wave (which wasn't an omnidirectional attack).

If we're actually discussing Bane as of getting stomped by Sirak, then he gets stomped.

Yeah trainee Bane gets blown back and stomped, I still feel POD Banes would also get blown back however, it really doesn't take much to knock someone of their feet.

I feel like Bane's Force defenses are certainly good enough to not be blown back. No way is Valkorion powerful enough to break through the force barriers of 10 Darth Bane's at once, thats insane.

He doesn't need to break through their Force barriers to knock them off the ground, just buffet them with sufficient kinetic force.

Unless they are able to erect a counter force in time, they'd be blown back, even if they are able to emerge unscathed.

I mean let's not forget it only took a combined attack from Kanan & Ezra to knock Vader on his ass.

So a combined force attack from 10 POD Bane's can knock Valkorion on his ass by that logic? The gap between POD Bane and Valk isn't any bigger than the gap between Kanan and Ezra, and there's also 9 other POD Bane's rather than 1 Ezra.

Lel. This thread became enjoyable again.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So a combined force attack from 10 POD Bane's can knock Valkorion on his ass by that logic? The gap between POD Bane and Valk isn't any bigger than the gap between Kanan and Ezra, and there's also 9 other POD Bane's rather than 1 Ezra. Yes of course, if Valkorion failed to erect a defense. But that's not the point, the point is that even if its POD Bane Valk can still intially blow them back and therefore gain some breathing room by which to attack properly.

Whether or not he'd be able to subsequently defeat them is another question, but he's not getting skewered.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He doesn't need to break through their Force barriers to knock them off the ground, just buffet them with sufficient kinetic force.

Um, yes he does?

Like, blocking force attacks is what a barrier does?

thats why its called a barrier

:I

Not really, if you bash someone's shield with enough Force they will be staggered, despite said shield remaining in intact.

Likewise when an individual is Force pushed it doesn't mean their defenses have been shattered, just that the attack hasn't been entirely mitigated, otherwise anyone who can Force push someone should be able to ragdoll them too. But that's rarely the case.

So are you going to argue that the POD Banes can negate Valkorion's power entirely or what?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Or instead of making gross generalisations via considerably inaccurate comparisons between generating a Force wave and conjuring a frikken Force storm, or obliterating a planet, we can look at Valkorion, who at the high end is able to consume a planet in minutes.

Relative to that this isn't a "big force power" at all in comparison, and we have no basis to assume it will be slow.Yes, in the same way that it takes more time to drink juice through a straw.He didn't blow them away, he killed them. And they were spread across a wide area. Of course less exertion is required to knock some trainee Banes on their assess when Darth Malgus is blowing away four of the protagonists at once, with a push.

At the same time, we have not seen Valk do a force shockwave in the time required. It is merely speculation that he can do so fast enough, trying to guestimate how quick he could do it and still put sufficient power into the attack. It's basically a matter of faster person using a slower technique vs slower people using the fastest of techniques.


Now, I *do* think he could do a force push in that time pretty easily, since that's a faster move- but a force push is not 360, he'd only get some of them.



It's pretty fast, but it's still a mook with a big windup doing the attack remember, vs Bane only having to stab.

Bane is still faster than the attack shown.



All force moves take a little time, and I never see anyone use it in response to the quickest attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
At the same time, we have not seen Valk do a force shockwave in the time required. It is merely speculation that he can do so fast enough, trying to guestimate how quick he could do it and still put sufficient power into the attack. It's basically a matter of faster person using a slower technique vs slower people using the fastest of techniques.

Now, I *do* think he could do a force push in that time pretty easily, since that's a faster move- but a force push is not 360, he'd only get some of them.Yeah it's called making logical inferences, kinda necessary when debating a speculative confrontation. Regardless, there is no reason to believe it will be slow, you are the one making baseless assumptions.

It's not as if Force shockwaves are characteristically slow for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI&t=3m26s

And Valkorion is capable of unleashing immense amounts of power in an instant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g7BwwggxFI&t=20m52s
Considering Bane is not in mid swing but has to consider his attack first, not even.

Regardless you are still pretending as if this is Valkorion's top speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4&t=4m25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ToztqqDcaY&t=3m34s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g7BwwggxFI&t=20m33s

Tbh.

Why do you even keep responding? This debate is going in circles.

Seems to be that way. I'll consider this his last chance to see reason.

Originally posted by Q99
You do know we saw the wave on video, yes? We don't have to guess.
Content developers intend to show us events and moves on-screen. They will not demonstrate realistic speed-levels of Force-users, would they?

Valkorion was so fast that a large number of opponents (including Force-users) were unable to react to his moves and powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Content developers intend to show us events and moves on-screen. They will not demonstrate realistic speed-levels of Force-users, would they?

Valkorion was so fast that a large number of opponents (including Force-users) were unable to react to his moves and powers.


Only one in that video was even in melee range, the rest didn't have a chance to do anything but die to a shockwave. It's a very different situation from this one.


And other people *have* been able to react and fight with him, if at a disadvantage.





I'm not saying it's slow in any absolute sense, just slow-er to something that can be done very fast- and force powers are normally shown to be slower, and this force power in specific involved arm gestures and a visible collecting of power. That's not baseless, that's working off what we're given.

Face it- assuming it's faster than that is, itself, an assumption.

At best, we're in a situation where there's not really hard proof either way.

I provided plenty of hard proof in the above post my friend, you're just blatantly ignoring it now.

Now?

Once again, he can protect himself with a Force barrier and simply expand it and release a shockwave to initiate a proper attack. We've seen him protect himself by throwing up a protective Force shield instantaneously; which is all he needs to do here.