the trouble with superman

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leonidas
an excellent article imo, from the atlantic. lengthy, but worth the read i think. give it a read through and let's discuss a bit. i'd love to hear how YOU'D fix superman. especially from some of the people who don't really like the character.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/the-trouble-with-superman/435408/

StiltmanFTW
There's no fixing him. Period.

He works well in his team-ups with Batman, though.

Like here.

Surtur
He doesn't need to be fixed, just needs someone who knows how to write him. When we have this we get great stories. When we don't we get shit.

DC also needs to cool its Batman boner. Dude doesn't belong in a movie with Superman, but they did it anyways. They put Ben Afleck in a f*cking Batsuit and expected us to take it seriously. For all the praise people want to heap on the character of Batman..the character has also gone through huge slumps as well, and a string of horrid films.

You will also have people whine Superman is too powerful, but these people don't blink when Batman does shit he shouldn't be capable of doing.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Surtur
Dude doesn't belong in a movie with Superman, but they did it anyways.

You're wrong here.

Batman/Superman comics are easily among the best stories DC has ever made.

Of course a movie needed to be made. But can WB do it right? We'll see soon...

Galan007
Like him or not, it's hard to deny that Superman is a great character as is. He simply wouldn't have lasted this long(and still be as popular as he is) if he weren't.

Writer consistency is the only area I would improve, but that 'gripe' certainly isn't exclusive to Supes. Heck, I'd have Morrison, Rucka, or even Pak(I still feel uneasy saying that, lol) write every single Superman title if I could, because I feel like they actually have a firm grasp of the character... But we don't live in a perfect world. stick out tongue

Surtur
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You're wrong here.

Batman/Superman comics are easily among the best stories DC has ever made.

Of course a movie needed to be made. But can WB do it right? We'll see soon...

That is the problem, the way people view both characters, it can't be done right. Those Superman/Batman stories were done by people who knew something about the characters beyond their biographies.

StiltmanFTW
There's no such thing as "can't".

Look at MCU. Pefect example.

Surtur
I'm just worried this movie will turn into one big dick measuring contest.

StiltmanFTW
Tell me... do you measure dicks? YOU WILL.

Bentley
Make Superman fun. Make comics fun. Stop trying to be edgy and overrealistic everywhere, allow yourself to be silly, impossible and take risks.

This is not exclusive to Superman! People who are enjoying themselves don't care as much about power levels and continuity, realism nor detail.

SamZED
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Tell me... do you measure dicks? YOU WILL. laughing I thought this movie is going to be PG13.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
an excellent article imo, from the atlantic. lengthy, but worth the read i think. give it a read through and let's discuss a bit. i'd love to hear how YOU'D fix superman. especially from some of the people who don't really like the character.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/the-trouble-with-superman/435408/ How Grant Morrison writes young Superman? Write him like that.
How Grant Morrison writes transitioning Superman? Write him like that.
How Grant Morrison writes fully formed Superman? Write him like that.

It really is that simple.
They should dissect those runs, and go with it.

leonidas
i largely agree with what has been said here. i don't think he needs fixing as much as he needs a constant direction. there is the issue with consistency that all characters face, but in superman's case it seems there has been a larger degree of inconsistency. i think in large part it's because it's really tough to reconcile the historic character with modern readership and culture. so in part they have been forced to change him. i just don't think dc has constantly found a way TO change him that resonates with everyone--as the dip in his sales would attest....

it's tricky. his historic, good ole farmboy nature really doesn't fly anymore. but when that is who he is, i can see where trying to change it, or rather make it more amenable to the modern world and its views, can be a challenge, dc has HAD to adjust its characters a lot more than marvel has imo. and i still don't think they have it consistently right with characters like marvel and wonder woman.

don't get me wrong--if i had to choose only one company to survive, marvel or dc, it would likely be dc. still, a strong definitive direction would be nice. maybe rebirth will allow for something more consistent.....

Q99
The big 'fix' is "stop trying to write him as an angsty outsider."

He's not Batman, do not try and make him Batman. His main aspects are different, and spending your effort trying to 'bring him down to Earth' is just avoiding what makes him great.


Oh yea, and it'd also help if he won more via creative use of powers rather than raw force. Creativity helps.

leonidas
i agree, again. but i wonder--what if trying to stick to his roots is part of the problem? is superman 'too corny' to work well in today's society? is dc right in trying for a more 'modernized' version of the character? and how much 'modernizing' is too much? legit questions about which i'm curious.

Q99
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree, again. but i wonder--what if trying to stick to his roots is part of the problem?

If it is, we wouldn't know, because people insist on trying anything but, or even trying to make him Jesus instead of Superman (sacrifice is not what makes Superman great!).



My Little Pony and Steven Universe are incredibly popular.




Well, it hasn't worked so far... and the parts they insist on modernizing seem largely moving away from his core, and I don't think being hopeful and fun actually has to do with time.

Like, I think Morrison's modernizing, showing him being young, socially active and wear jeans, can work just fine with the core of the character. Whereas, "I fail constantly and angst about being an outsider," just isn't Superman, he's totally not an outsider.

Like a character said when asked about Superman being an alien many years ago, "he's an American." He's of Earth. He is *totally* a normal guy. A good, normal guy. That's what makes him Superman.



Good question. Apparently the amount that DC does isn't it, judging by the results and DC trying similar reinventions often to mixed results (They aren't all bad stories by any means, but they haven't hit the parts needed to be popular, or name as his core).

Also I do not think it's a question of amount so much as type.

StiltmanFTW
The S symbol actually = Shit.

Shitman from Krypton. There's no hope.

Digi
I always kind of enjoyed when they took their characters a mythic direction. More "Kingdom Come," less gritty modern reboot. Superman and Batman have never felt more human to me than in KC, because it's so easy to create the dichotomy between their outward image, their persona, the zeitgeist of them, so to speak, against their inner struggles. Superman is a broken man in KC, but he's also very clearly a god.

Marvel does kinda have a corner on the market on relatable heroes, at least in their movie-verse. Cap 2 got away with being an overt allegory on civil liberties. DC should go the opposite direction, imo. Forget being topical. Be timeless.

-Pr-
Superman's biggest problem is always going to be writers that just don't get the character, and editors who try to micro-manage shit. I've never been shy about saying that the Morrison version is now how I would personally want it, but he writes the character well enough that I can't really complain.

DC needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and to just let people who know their shit write the character.

Time-Immemorial
The problem is Superman is better then all the writers. A mortal writer can never live up to a fictional god that has transcended fiction and become a actual Icon in the real world.

StiltmanFTW
You need to get sober.

CPT Space Bomb
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The problem is Superman is better then all the writers. A mortal writer can never live up to a fictional god that has transcended fiction and become a actual Icon in the real world. http://41.media.tumblr.com/a5f4ecf470a1260b706ae8deed3be275/tumblr_mia0lum4Ya1rvzbdgo1_500.jpg

krisblaze
Originally posted by Digi
DC should go the opposite direction, imo. Forget being topical. Be timeless.
This (y)

Digi
Originally posted by Demonseeded
Actually an excellent and well thought out post.

Thanks. Ellis did the same with the Authority years back. They were literally described as a pantheon. And they were incredibly flawed, but they overtly stood for something beyond themselves. Same idea.

Newjak
So what is a well written Superman to most people? What attributes does he need to be consistently written with?

leonidas
Originally posted by Digi
Forget being topical. Be timeless.

nice. i agree. thumb up

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