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It seems to good to be true, but I would love it if Bernie could do it.

Doubtful

When have politicians ever not gone through with something they promised?

Politically? Not a chance. This is a 'must go through congress' thing and not only are the Republicans going to be against it, and some moderate democrats would likely have misgivings. Even if the Democrats managed to reach a supermajority, it would be a big question if it could get through.

In actual, 'can we do this?' capability? Yes, it's definitely possible, other large nations are talking about it.

Living in a country where university education is free, yes, it's definitely possible.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
It seems to good to be true, but I would love it if Bernie could do it.

It could happen.

What could be tricky though is if there are long standing contracts for pay/benefits etc. There would have to be alot of control in cost and that would certainly ruffle alot of professots/admins.

There might be changes to entrance requirements making them a bit tougher to get into said schools or waiting lists.

The best investments to growing the economy long term is made in education.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
It seems to good to be true, but I would love it if Bernie could do it. Can he do it possibly.

It's hard to say. Like people said there is going to be a lot of opposition to it.

I'm just hoping if he gets elected that at the very least he get enough support to lower the cost of tuition to something manageable. If we could reduce the average cost of Colleges by 50% that would be amazing.

Although private schools will probably be a lot tougher to get down tuition costs.

Originally posted by Newjak
Can he do it possibly.

It's hard to say. Like people said there is going to be a lot of opposition to it.

I'm just hoping if he gets elected that at the very least he get enough support to lower the cost of tuition to something manageable. If we could reduce the average cost of Colleges by 50% that would be amazing.

Although private schools will probably be a lot tougher to get down tuition costs.

One of the reasons costs climbed so rapidly for education was the govt response to helping provide loans in the first place.

Unless the govt wants to step in and specifically control costs with pay/benefits etc it will be an excercise in futility.

Pretty good article talking about the cost:

http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-and-the-history-of-student-loans/

Realistically the big opposition will be in the form of greed. Blows my mind to think we couldn't possibly take money out of our defense budget to help kids higher education.

Here is a zero tution college:

http://www.cofo.edu/

Originally posted by Bardock42
Living in a country where university education is free, yes, it's definitely possible.
Only because your country is pro-socialism, bordering on extreme socialism.

Originally posted by snowdragon
One of the reasons costs climbed so rapidly for education was the govt response to helping provide loans in the first place.

Unless the govt wants to step in and specifically control costs with pay/benefits etc it will be an excercise in futility.

Pretty good article talking about the cost:

http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-and-the-history-of-student-loans/

Realistically the big opposition will be in the form of greed. Blows my mind to think we couldn't possibly take money out of our defense budget to help kids higher education.

Here is a zero tution college:

http://www.cofo.edu/ True people are greedy but those loans are what allowed a number of people to go to college that otherwise wouldn't be able to.

But I agree wrangling in the costs of college is going to need to be a big deal.

There will be a number of people that will put the nix to almost any talk of shrinking our military. They have too many constituents invested in the military to let down size at all.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Only because your country is pro-socialism, bordering on extreme socialism.

Germany is not bordering on extreme socialism.

I take your point though, Bernie Sanders will have a problem to make college free in the American climate, but it wouldn't be too expensive and beneficial to the country if he could.

Greed will get in the way, I think.

Bernie's my candidate of choice when it comes to social issues. When it comes to fiscal matters, however, he's a bit too idealistic. The US isn't Iceland politically. The resistance he'll face to enact a lot of the initiatives he wants, especially given the likelihood of his only getting a single term if he swings for the fences and misses, makes it unrealistic (sadly) because it means people agreeing on what's in the best interests of the nation. I'm all for single payer healthcare and state funded education though.

If they can do it with out making taxes go up to pay for it. Go ahead. Heck. U.S Colleges are just socialist propaganda brainwashing machines nowadays anyways.

Maybe if they made weed legal we could pay for college for everyone?

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Only because your country is pro-socialism, bordering on extreme socialism.

See this is what's wrong with America right here. Progress can be made, but people like AF believe complacency with our flawed system is "The American Way

It is though humanitarianism has somehow become synonymous with socialism. As though desiring to give people free healthcare and education suddenly translates in a dictator esque plot to take over all of America's private and publicly owned businesses.

Again humanitarianism (such as healthcare and education) and Stalinist socialism are not the same, and willfully ignorant Americans who believe they are, such as AF, are the ones ruining our country.

Originally posted by Surtur
Maybe if they made weed legal we could pay for college for everyone?

But then College kids would still be the ones paying the bill to go to college.

So yes. lets do that.

Maybe we try to make illegal immigrants harvest marijuana? There has to be some way to aim these problems at something useful.

Anything to help bring down the price of weed. A Dime bag should only cost a dime.




And aint they already doing this?

Legalizing marijuana would create jobs, increase tax revenue, and decrease the cost of prosecuting and incarcerating non-violent marijuana users and distributors. In my opinion it's a a net positive.

Until the Gummint screws it all up and loses all the money due to incompetence and corruption. Just like everything else. And we then have to put up with worthless Weed Addicts flaunting their welfare abusing selves in public.

So Lose/Lose.

How much alcohol and tobacco revenue is lost to "Gummint" incompetence?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
How much alcohol and tobacco revenue is lost to "Gummint" incompetence?

*looks at the Multi Trillion Dollar Debt Limit*


F-ING CRAP LOADS!

The multi trillion dollar debt has to do with our out of control defense budget coupled with the disappearance of our manufacturing industry, not the inability to collect sales tax on alcohol and tobacco.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
The multi trillion dollar debt has to do with our out of control defense budget coupled with the disappearance of our manufacturing industry, not the inability to collect sales tax on alcohol and tobacco.

Wow. You done DRANK the whole Pitcher of the Kool Aid!!!!!!

No wonder you a Bernie Boy.

The Military budget has been Slashed more times then every 80's horror movie combined. Go push that Liberal Lie some where else PotBoy.

Are you serious? Our defense budget is astronomical, more than all other govt programs combined. Do you even America, bro?

Defense budget also includes contractors like Halliburton, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc, tax subsidies and breaks provided to construction and gas companies doing business in the region and other spatial solutions and logistics companies that help rebuild the nations we've knocked over, and the increase in our homeland security and surveillance apparatus domestically. Not to mention the financial aid we provide to those countries. It's not simply how much money we pump into the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force.

Everything in our GOVERMENT is ATRONOMICAL! How else would you explain the TRILLIONS IN DEBT!

I personally have no prob spending money on stuff meant to KEEP US Alive. I do have a prob of wasting it on the stupid SHIT that The Liberal Socialist like Benrie Boy wants to waste it on. Try to read some news sites other then The Daily Show. Cause they make shit up for laughs. Much like The Puffington Post and well, all the rest of your Liberal Liar Sites.

So Yay for Guns and Bombs to Kill IslamoNazis and Socialist Commie Idiots.

.

Also, my profession doesn't allow me to smoke. I advocate for marijuana strictly on it's economic merits.

I just want to be able to not deal with shady drug dealers. Let people get high if they want.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Everything in our GOVERMENT is ATRONOMICAL! How else would you explain the TRILLIONS IN DEBT!

I personally have no prob spending money on stuff meant to KEEP US Alive. I do have a prob of wasting it on the stupid SHIT that The Liberal Socialist like Benrie Boy wants to waste it on. Try to read some news sites other then The Daily Show. Cause they make shit up for laughs. Much like The Puffington Post and well, all the rest of your Liberal Liar Sites.

So Yay for Guns and Bombs to Kill IslamoNazis and Socialist Commie Idiots.

.

You can correlate the spike in our debt to a war that's been waged for the last 13 years. What was our debt pre-2001?

Obama been in charge last 7 years. Not Bush.

Can't keep pushing his mess ups off on others.

SUCK IT UP KOOL AID KID!

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Everything in our GOVERMENT is ATRONOMICAL! How else would you explain the TRILLIONS IN DEBT!

I personally have no prob spending money on stuff meant to KEEP US Alive. I do have a prob of wasting it on the stupid SHIT that The Liberal Socialist like Benrie Boy wants to waste it on. Try to read some news sites other then The Daily Show. Cause they make shit up for laughs. Much like The Puffington Post and well, all the rest of your Liberal Liar Sites.

So Yay for Guns and Bombs to Kill IslamoNazis and Socialist Commie Idiots.

.

Do you even read the crap you write? You're the one who's been drinking the Kool-Aid. You drank so much of it your brain has mummified.

Is it possible? Sure. In Sweden we have universal access to higher education.

Is it likely? No. It's too big of a change to happen overnight. If it ever happens it has to be through a series of incremental changes over a couple of decades.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Do you even read the crap you write? You're the one who's been drinking the Kool-Aid. You drank so much of it your brain has mummified.


You should try reading something instead of just absorbing all that crap your Liberal Socialist Propaganda spouting College Prof's yell at you about how they hate the Right.


And Kool Aid wouldn't work in Mummification. That is a process of preserving things thru the removal of liquids.

You should know that but you are obviously a Millennial Age College Noodle Head.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Obama been in charge last 7 years. Not Bush.

Can't keep pushing his mess ups off on others.

SUCK IT UP KOOL AID KID!

Uh...

Point to one mention of Bush, or any political party at all, in my posts? The left/right paradigm is beneath me. Regardless of which administration is currently in charge the war and expansion of our defense budget is hemorrhaging money.

Originally posted by Flyattractor


You should try reading something instead of just absorbing all that crap your Liberal Socialist Propaganda spouting College Prof's yell at you about how they hate the Right.


And Kool Aid wouldn't work in Mummification. That is a process of preserving things thru the removal of liquids.

You should know that but you are obviously a Millennial Age College Noodle Head.

No college prof has ever told me how much they hate the right. In fact, I haven't even gone to college. Even if I had, colleges over here don't have much of a political bent, thankfully.

Seriously? It was meant to be a joke, but I assumed it would be all the chemicals and other shit in Kool-Aid that would do the mummifying.

Anyway, you'd do well to stop drinking the Breitbart-Aid. It's started to attract a whole lot of flies for some reason.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Uh...

Point to one mention of Bush, or any political party at all, in my posts? The left/right paradigm is beneath me. Regardless of which administration is currently in charge the war and expansion of our defense budget is hemorrhaging money.

That would imply that I give the effort to read your posts which I obviously don't.

Cause you are a Socialist Liberal Progressive and thus don't give your opinion the time and respect I would a bag of Doritos.


And its only hemorrhaging *spelled correctly/Thank that Liberal Education* because of all the Pork and Croney Corruption that it has to put up with. Thanks to LIBERAL Politics messing things up.

Seriously You just cut and paste off of Huffington Post Editorial don't you?

Originally posted by Flyattractor
That would imply that I give the effort to read your posts which I obviously don't.
And yet you reply to them.

You don't visit here much so you don't know this Delph, but, Flyattractor is literally retarded.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
And yet you reply to them.

You don't visit here much so you don't know this Delph, but, Flyattractor is literally retarded.

I am just happy knowing that We share something Tzeey!

He does not deny that he is literally retarded.

No.

Not only will he make college free, sanders will magically make everyone smart and good looking just like he is

Socialism has failed in Venezuela

http://www.activistpost.com/2016/02/venezuela-is-out-of-food-heres-what-an-economic-collapse-really-looks-like.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261839/socialist-venezuela-out-food-out-power-out-hope-daniel-greenfield

"Venezuelans aren't feeling the Bern because Socialism has taken them from prosperity to hopeless misery. Who knew history would repeat itself over and over and over again. First the stores ran out of toilet paper. Then no more milk. Now the stores don't even have electricity.

Venezuelans are accustomed to severe shortages of cooking oil, diapers and other staple products. But those hoping to buy what they could find got a new unpleasant surprise this week.

They found malls dark and shuttered under a government electricity rationing regime.

"This is madness, this is not the solution!" said Nataly Orta, 48, at the locked gate of the Lider mall in eastern Caracas.

Authorities ordered more than 250 shopping centers to find other sources of power from 1:00 to 3:00 pm and again from 7:00 to 9:00 pm, for the next three months.

Also there's no food or medicine, so this just simplifies things.

According to figures published by newspaper El Tiempo, there is a shortage of 90% on staple goods such as flour, coffee, sugar, and meat, and 80% shortage in medicines."

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Socialism has failed in Venezuela
TBH It has failed everywhere it appeared.

So why do people want it so bad?

BDSM tendencies or just plain, old stupidity.


Socialism, for those who want to be the government's biatch.


"Socialism rests on compulsion. Its defining ethic is not equality, but coercion" -- Daniel Hannan.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Socialism has failed in Venezuela

http://www.activistpost.com/2016/02/venezuela-is-out-of-food-heres-what-an-economic-collapse-really-looks-like.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261839/socialist-venezuela-out-food-out-power-out-hope-daniel-greenfield

"Venezuelans aren't feeling the Bern because Socialism has taken them from prosperity to hopeless misery. Who knew history would repeat itself over and over and over again. First the stores ran out of toilet paper. Then no more milk. Now the stores don't even have electricity.

Venezuelans are accustomed to severe shortages of cooking oil, diapers and other staple products. But those hoping to buy what they could find got a new unpleasant surprise this week.

They found malls dark and shuttered under a government electricity rationing regime.

"This is madness, this is not the solution!" said Nataly Orta, 48, at the locked gate of the Lider mall in eastern Caracas.

Authorities ordered more than 250 shopping centers to find other sources of power from 1:00 to 3:00 pm and again from 7:00 to 9:00 pm, for the next three months.

Also there's no food or medicine, so this just simplifies things.

According to figures published by newspaper El Tiempo, there is a shortage of 90% on staple goods such as flour, coffee, sugar, and meat, and 80% shortage in medicines." It's hard to take these sources seriously when they are obviously more concerned about pushing biased narrative then giving facts. Like what caused the economic turndown on Venezeula. Was it related to its socialist programs were was it part of a bigger problem.

Also the notion that socialism always fails is incorrect. There are a number of countries that have socialist programs that have been successful and their economies are successful. The USofA being one of them.

I guess this source is bias and pushing agenda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/venezuelas-food-shortage-keeps-getting-worse-2015-8

Also are you aware that Mexico is socialist? We don't have to look far to see it doesn't work.

I guess this source is pushing an agenda as well

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/venezuela-food-shortages/

I know you will listen to this source, because its a liberal one.

Interesting how you wont say they are pushing an agenda though here.

Just shows your immense double standard.

Eastern Europe, Cuba, North Korea etc. are all examples of failures of socialism.

The countries that have socialist programs rulling in them are simply on their way to collapse, they just don't know it yet.

Newjak is clueless...

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/sep/26/venezuela-food-shortages-rich-country-cia

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/looting-venezuela-shortages_us_55bcec4de4b0d4f33a0309a3

On topic

"The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem." -- Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize in Economics.


Sanders won't make college free, because there's no such thing as a free lunch. If you won't pay for it in tuition, you'll pay for it in taxes.

I think the Scandanavian model of 'socialism' is more what contemporary proponents of socialism think of versus Venezuela or Stalin's Russia. While not as extreme those models still have their issues. I think the U.S., which already has a few 'socialist' programs like welfare and Medicaid, could just expand Medicaid to encompass all, nationalize the medical industry so it's no longer for profit, and nationalize college education, without going much further beyond that. No need for a slippery slope when there's clearly defined objectives.

TI I wasn't saying that Venezuela wasn't having a food shortage just that it being solely the fault of them being socialist is what I find to be lacking facts.

Truthfully none of the other articles you posted said anything about socialism being the fault. Some even say the President is saying opposition in the food companies is trying to push him out by artificially lowering production. Which may or may not be the case. It seems like a far fetched idea but stranger things have happened.

What none of this does though is discredit the fact that socialist programs exist in very successful countries.

Also there are countries that are considered capitalist that are poor, barren, and have had similar problems to these failed socialist countries you are talking about. It's almost like Economics is a complex topic that has a lot of variables to talk about and look into.

So what you are saying is because the huff post does not say "socialism has caused this" you refuse to accept it
What planet were you born on?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So what you are saying is because the huff post does not say "socialism has caused this" you refuse to accept it
What planet were you born on? I understand written mediums can be hard to understand sometimes but you need to learn to read responses better.

I never said the Huffington post was unbiased because it didn't say socialism was at fault. I said the other posts were biased because they jumped to the conclusion that socialism was to blame without offering any evidence. They for instance don't talk about if Venezuela has had these types of food shortages before. Some of the articles you posted mentioned that being the case. The articles you posted didn't offer any reasons why socialism was the cause of this issue just that is obviously was.

The other sources you posted were actually less biased because it seemed less like they were pushing an agenda and actually just reporting on the events and not making claims without evidence.

Wrong as usual. They have failed for their socialism.

Warnings

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Wrong as usual. They have failed for their solecisms.

Warnings As usual you offer such constructive insight to complex problems.

You are right, the country has succeeded due to its economic principles.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You are right, the country has succeeded due to its economic principles. Well obviously if there is a food shortage there is a major problem in Venezuela which may or may not be due to its socialist nature.

I mean it could be or not be what we shouldn't do is make false accusations without actually investigating what is going there. More importantly people shouldn't blanket try to attack socialism over this considering it has also been proven successful in countries including America.

Don't tell me what to do. I don't care if you don't agree with my opinion.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Don't tell me what to do. I don't care if you don't agree with my opinion. At least you recognize that what you are saying is an opinion and not fact.

Medicare and Social Security is not socialism, it's social benefit that people pay into through taxes based on their work.

Originally posted by Newjak
At least you recognize that what you are saying is an opinion and not fact.

Your opinion is basically as worthless. So we can agree.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Medicare and Social Security is not socialism, it's social benefit that people pay into through taxes based on their work.

That happens to be what Bernie Sanders understands as "Democratic Socialism".

Sanders has never been a democrat. He's been an independent until this race.

While I like sanders. His principles are not sound and he even admitted he won't change anything.

He actually never earned a paycheck until age 40 and it was a government paycheck.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Medicare and Social Security is not socialism, it's social benefit that people pay into through taxes based on their work. Public Education is one of the biggest Socialist programs in the world.

It is the very definition of socialism. It takes money from people regardless of whether they are using the service or not to help supply funds to pay for everyone's education even if they otherwise would not be able to afford. That's the very definition of socialist. It has wealth distribution, the rich paying for the poor, and it's state sponsored.

We also do things like regulate businesses which means we aren't a purely capitalist economy either. We have always been a blended model which is pretty much every country on earth.

Your being disingenuous as usual. I never said anything about education.

Originally posted by Newjak
It's hard to take these sources seriously when they are obviously more concerned about pushing biased narrative then giving facts. Like what caused the economic turndown on Venezeula. Was it related to its socialist programs were was it part of a bigger problem.

Also the notion that socialism always fails is incorrect. There are a number of countries that have socialist programs that have been successful and their economies are successful. The USofA being one of them.

Of course countries will have some socialized programs. Don't act like that makes it a socialist country.

He's doing what he normally does.

One thing about newjack he usual circular logic and finds crafty ways to manipulate what you say into something else entirely. No one even listens to him in any forum. He tired passing out warnings in a off topic thread for "trolling" when the entire thread is just jokes and bashing each other.

Originally posted by Raisen
Of course countries will have some socialized programs. Don't act like that makes it a socialist country. But don't pretend that socialism is bad either. It stops any constructive criticism or points form being made.

Like I said almost every country in the world has a blended model. Even Venezuela engages in some capitalist trading. The same goes for China which is a self proclaimed communist state.

Let's actually try and find out what the cause of the food shortage is before quoting biased sites to promote an agenda.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Medicare and Social Security is not socialism, it's social benefit that people pay into through taxes based on their work.


No, those are socialistic programs.


Here is what socialism is: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism


If the resources collected and put into a program for all the people, by the government, just so happens to be money, that's a socialistic program. It is socialism.


This also means things like your Fire Department and Police Department are socialistic programs. Socialism is in everything. Your city streets, traffic lights, highways, state colleges, social security, medicare, medicaid, and so forth.



Here is a list of most to all of the social programs in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Social_programs_in_the_United_States#Types_of_soci
al_programs


Socialism "surrounds us and binds us."




The US is a Democratic-Socialist State. We have just slightly fewer socialistic programs than some other European countries. In fact, we may spend more money on socialist programs, per US Citizen, then some of those "more" socialistic European countries do on their own citizens.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, those are socialistic programs.


Here is what socialism is: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism


If the resources collected and put into a program for all the people, by the government, just so happens to be money, that's a socialistic program. It is socialism.


This also means things like your Fire Department and Police Department are socialistic programs. Socialism is in everything. Your city streets, traffic lights, highways, state colleges, social security, medicare, medicaid, and so forth.



Here is a list of most to all of the social programs in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Social_programs_in_the_United_States#Types_of_soci
al_programs


Socialism "surrounds us and binds us."




The US is a Democratic-Socialist State. We have just slightly fewer socialistic programs than some other European countries. In fact, we may spend more money on socialist programs, per US Citizen, then some of those "more" socialistic European countries do on their own citizens. Pretty much.

DDM, I know the us has social programs.

However we are not flat out socialist.

I'm fine with small scale socialism, but giving out everything for free like Bernie wants to do just won't work. Just because Sweeden has some success does not mean it's going to work here.

Acting like many countries have not failed from it like many do here is also false.

A few small countries that are not on the level of the US have small success but it's not going to work here with liberals wanting to give all our money away to illegal immigrants and special interest groups.

Originally posted by Newjak
But don't pretend that socialism is bad either. It stops any constructive criticism or points form being made.

Like I said almost every country in the world has a blended model. Even Venezuela engages in some capitalist trading. The same goes for China which is a self proclaimed communist state.

Let's actually try and find out what the cause of the food shortage is before quoting biased sites to promote an agenda.

I've never flat out said it's bad. It's all about levels. Too many social programs break countries. Just like predatory capitalism

Originally posted by Raisen
I've never flat out said it's bad. It's all about levels. Too many social programs break countries. Just like predatory capitalism Sorry I may have been confusing other people's post with yours.

Seems to happen a lot, The people that usually defend socialism were the ones brought up on welfare of some sorts.

The country was actually founded on hard work equals success.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Seems to happen a lot, The people that usually defend socialism were the ones brought up on welfare of some sorts.

The country was actually founded on hard work equals success.

you are mostly correct; but there are some of us who broke out of that mold. a few, but i'm one of them. mostly because my family had cultural pride in work and respected this country. my white grandfather came from denmark and fought the nazis. he spent three years in stalag 3 after he was shot down. he freaking escaped that pow camp.
my mexican granmother lived dirt poor with eleven siblings. her father and mother worked night and day on the farm they lived on. the man who owned the farm was mean but they were grateful to even have a place to live and be in a country with so many opportunities.
every generation we got a little better. i got my college degree. served this country and look forward to the day my daughter does better than me.

some poor people have the will. it's about mindset. this victimhood only begets people who will not succeed.

i remember talking to a man from india here. he owned a store. i asked him why so many indians own these types of businesses. he explained the caste system and said that when one person succeeds in this country they send word back to their village...and they come over here and do the same thing. a poor village where the system of government will never let them rise. yet they thrive here. they are often confused for muslims and treated with disdain. yeah, that's racism, but look at what so many of them accomplish.

we need to recognize that there are stupid and ignorant people, but you can succeed. success is the best revenge.

Originally posted by Raisen
you are mostly correct; but there are some of us who broke out of that mold. a few, but i'm one of them. mostly because my family had cultural pride in work and respected this country. my white grandfather came from denmark and fought the nazis. he spent three years in stalag 3 after he was shot down. he freaking escaped that pow camp.
my mexican granmother lived dirt poor with eleven siblings. her father and mother worked night and day on the farm they lived on. the man who owned the farm was mean but they were grateful to even have a place to live and be in a country with so many opportunities.
every generation we got a little better. i got my college degree. served this country and look forward to the day my daughter does better than me.

some poor people have the will. it's about mindset. this victimhood only begets people who will not succeed.

i remember talking to a man from india here. he owned a store. i asked him why so many indians own these types of businesses. he explained the caste system and said that when one person succeeds in this country they send word back to their village...and they come over here and do the same thing. a poor village where the system of government will never let them rise. yet they thrive here. they are often confused for muslims and treated with disdain. yeah, that's racism, but look at what so many of them accomplish.

we need to recognize that there are stupid and ignorant people, but you can succeed. success is the best revenge. I think there does need to be an understanding though that you can be the hardest worker and still not get anywhere. There are a number of outside influences that are beyond people's ability to control. Anything from economic troubles, lack of influential friends, and other things.

Wanting people to succeed through hardwork is good but we shouldn't pretend that is all it takes to be successful either. There is also quite a bit of luck.

So work hard and if it doesn't work: socialism is the answer.

Originally posted by Newjak
I think there does need to be an understanding though that you can be the hardest worker and still not get anywhere. There are a number of outside influences that are beyond people's ability to control. Anything from economic troubles, lack of influential friends, and other things.

Wanting people to succeed through hardwork is good but we shouldn't pretend that is all it takes to be successful either. There is also quite a bit of luck.

there is luck, however isn't it better to work that extra job then bittch and complain all the time dude. do you really think there is a systemic issue with keeping certain people down? i just can't see it on a large scale. it's the complete opposite.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So work hard and if it doesn't work: socialism is the answer.

everybody wants a mercedes and two story house. poor people here don't even know what it's like to be poor

Originally posted by Raisen
there is luck, however isn't it better to work that extra job then bittch and complain all the time dude. do you really think there is a systemic issue with keeping certain people down? i just can't see it on a large scale. it's the complete opposite. I actually do believe the current system is dramatically flawed in that department.

There have been a number of studies that show people often will not be able to leave the economic status of what they were born into. Anything from the environment you were born in to the time period you were born in can have vast effects on your ability to move up in the world. Also working two jobs isn't always feasible or doable depending on the number of people looking for jobs, your personal situations.

There is also a certain notion that people need to essentially be work slaves to move up in the world that I just don't like. I'm actually on the weird outliers in this department myself. I have a good job, I happen to be pretty intelligent, I work hard, and I have sense for networking with people. Even with my own success I can understand look back on instances where I got extremely lucky about where I am today. I've also had rough patches where I've seen people just as skilled as me not get nearly as lucky as I was.

I currently do not believe that in America your work ethic, ability, and resourcefulness are the primary reasons for success. I would like for that to be the case but it won't happen any time soon. I also feel the pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality is a big reason for this along with others.

Originally posted by Newjak
I actually do believe the current system is dramatically flawed in that department.

There have been a number of studies that show people often will not be able to leave the economic status of what they were born into. Anything from the environment you were born in to the time period you were born in can have vast effects on your ability to move up in the world. Also working two jobs isn't always feasible or doable depending on the number of people looking for jobs, your personal situations.

There is also a certain notion that people need to essentially be work slaves to move up in the world that I just don't like. I'm actually on the weird outliers in this department myself. I have a good job, I happen to be pretty intelligent, I work hard, and I have sense for networking with people. Even with my own success I can understand look back on instances where I got extremely lucky about where I am today. I've also had rough patches where I've seen people just as skilled as me not get nearly as lucky as I was.

I currently do not believe that in America your work ethic, ability, and resourcefulness are the primary reasons for success. I would like for that to be the case but it won't happen any time soon. I also feel the pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality is a big reason for this along with others.



perhaps people are taught the victim mentality and perpetuate it? pass it along to the next generation? give me an example of one person who is being systemically victimized. someone who can't get a good job despite all the qualifications.
keep in mind, during times of a shiity economy lots of people suffer temporarily

Originally posted by Raisen
perhaps people are taught the victim mentality and perpetuate it? pass it along to the next generation? give me an example of one person who is being systemically victimized. someone who can't get a good job despite all the qualifications.
keep in mind, during times of a shiity economy lots of people suffer temporarily I think the problem is people don't want to realize the bad parts of a system. For instance we blame everyone on welfare for being leeches on the system while corporations rake in record profits off of these people but refuse to pay their workers of welfare living wages.

I think we have more of a bully mentality in our country that anybody that is not successful is because they were not up to snuff or lazy. Which is false some the poorest people I've ever seen have also been some of the hardest workers I've ever known.

I will actually give you a very common scenario currently. A person born into a lower income family has to deal with second rate items and sometimes second rate schooling. This can lower ability to get into a good college which they will most likely come out of with large student loans. Growing up in a poorer family they have less connections therefore finding a good job is much harder. They may have to settle for lower wage jobs to earn income which takes away time that should be spending to find a higher class job which makes it harder to move out of that minimum wage job. Of course student loans are coming do so they also now have to spend money paying those back which is virtually impossible on lower income jobs. They have to take more hours to pay them off which means even less time to find a higher income job. Eventually they have a family they have to support and therefore they can not afford to lose time off therefore they never get a chance to move up. The scary thing is this more common than you think.

Now let's go to the reverse. A person is born into a wealthy family. They get the finest things including education which helps prepare more for college. They don't have to pay for schooling and their parents have connections to other prominent business owners. This allows that kid to get internships and get placements in their field early on.

Also as things like income inequality rise this can become more and more of a problem.

Here is a good article describing what I am talking about

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

I even learned a good term for it. It's called social mobility.

Originally posted by Newjak
I think the problem is people don't want to realize the bad parts of a system. For instance we blame everyone on welfare for being leeches on the system while corporations rake in record profits off of these people but refuse to pay their workers of welfare living wages.

I think we have more of a bully mentality in our country that anybody that is not successful is because they were not up to snuff or lazy. Which is false some the poorest people I've ever seen have also been some of the hardest workers I've ever known.

I will actually give you a very common scenario currently. A person born into a lower income family has to deal with second rate items and sometimes second rate schooling. This can lower ability to get into a good college which they will most likely come out of with large student loans. Growing up in a poorer family they have less connections therefore finding a good job is much harder. They may have to settle for lower wage jobs to earn income which takes away time that should be spending to find a higher class job which makes it harder to move out of that minimum wage job. Of course student loans are coming do so they also now have to spend money paying those back which is virtually impossible on lower income jobs. They have to take more hours to pay them off which means even less time to find a higher income job. Eventually they have a family they have to support and therefore they can not afford to lose time off therefore they never get a chance to move up. The scary thing is this more common than you think.

Now let's go to the reverse. A person is born into a wealthy family. They get the finest things including education which helps prepare more for college. They don't have to pay for schooling and their parents have connections to other prominent business owners. This allows that kid to get internships and get placements in their field early on.

Also as things like income inequality rise this can become more and more of a problem.
Have to go to work. I'll respond later

Originally posted by Newjak
Here is a good article describing what I am talking about

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

I even learned a good term for it. It's called social mobility.

Here is a cartoon that explains it.

http://thewireless.co.nz/system/production/content_images/images/000/002/336/full/01.gif

http://thewireless.co.nz/system/production/content_images/images/000/002/337/full/02.gif

http://thewireless.co.nz/system/production/content_images/images/000/002/338/full/03.gif

http://thewireless.co.nz/system/production/content_images/images/000/002/339/full/04.gif

Nothings 'free' obviously, but universities work just fine without absurd tuition fees.

Originally posted by Newjak


Wanting people to succeed through hardwork is good but we shouldn't pretend that is all it takes to be successful either. There is also quite a bit of luck.


Success leaves clues and while luck can be a factor sometimes it isn't the case all the time.

There should be a switch from the thought of hard work, it should be focused on results. Focusing on the hard work aspect is pretty childish.

I believe university can be provided for "free" but its probably not going to be like the current university system.

Lulz, that on a plate cartoon is a joke.....

All Ivory Leageu Liberal Colleges and Universities should make it so that all their teachers should not be paid and put into a for free voluntary position.

If they want to be Commies and push commie beliefs they should live it.

Or at least cut their pay down to that of the custodian and maintenance staff are paid. Every one should be paid equally.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
DDM, I know the us has social programs.

However we are not flat out socialist.

I'm fine with small scale socialism,

You know what? My bad. You've made that clear, before. Sorry about that.

Then why do so many Indians do well. Vietnamese. So many people who didn't even know the language and had little to no education.

Originally posted by Raisen
Then why do so many Indians do well. Vietnamese. So many people who didn't even know the language and had little to no education.
Not really sure what you mean. Indians who "do well" in America invariably have some university education.

Originally posted by Raisen
Then why do so many Indians do well. Vietnamese. So many people who didn't even know the language and had little to no education. You assume that most of them are doing well.

For one thing most Indians I know in the IT field have had University training much cheaper than here in US. They also can have unsuccessful attempts as I've known quite a few who've had to leave due to the fact no company wanted to sponsor their visa.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You know what? My bad. You've made that clear, before. Sorry about that.

No worries

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not really sure what you mean. Indians who "do well" in America invariably have some university education.

Bs. The ones with education come from a higher caste. The ones who own the stores generally have little education. Nobody even wants to address this because the truth is they succeed due to a strong culture and a willingness to sacrifice until they get desired results.

I encourage you to talk to as many Indian,Korean, Vietnamese immigrants as you can. The numbers are out there. They succeed at an extraordinary rate and the answer is strong culture and no whining

Originally posted by Raisen
Then why do so many Indians do well. Vietnamese. So many people who didn't even know the language and had little to no education.

what is brain drain.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So work hard and if it doesn't work: socialism is the answer.

At the least, do away with nepotism.

**** legacies, the sons and daughters of "important people" should have to prove themselves just like fresh off the boat immigrants or first of a family college students..

And yet free college still won't equal "success."

Just like hard work doesn't equate to "success."

I know from my experiences with Vietnamese in my family they have a strong family and community. They tend to work together to achieve goals and also have very serious expectations from their children. They succeed despite their difficulties and they sacrifice to achieve their results as both a family and community.

Free colleges will most certainly raise the requirements to enter said schools and will more then likely decrease staff pay. Go for it, lets just not hear whining when folks don't like the specific outcome.

I was going to post an argument about how stupid it is to think that poor people are not disadvantage while also stating that it is rather obvious that hard work really does pay off.


It is not black or white (no pun intended). A poor person really can make a difference. They can get good grades. They go through college and get a kickass job. Comics like the one Adam Poe posted lends itself to the idea that poor people are helpless and can't do anything to improve their position. That's rather insulting to people like me who grew up ridiculously poor but worked very hard to get to where I am, today. It's is another insulting liberal idea. "No no, shut up you poor person. You can't make it on your own. You're crippled. The world needs to spoon feed you so you can have a chance at success!"


On the other hand, quite clearly, poor people are disadvantaged. Clearly.


Alright (said in Matthew McConaughey's voice). That should cover that topic.


Now bring on the free tuition.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was going to post an argument about how stupid it is to think that poor people are not disadvantage while also stating that it is rather obvious that hard work really does pay off.


It is not black or white (no pun intended). A poor person really can make a difference. They can get good grades. They go through college and get a kickass job. Comics like the one Adam Poe posted lends itself to the idea that poor people are helpless and can't do anything to improve their position. That's rather insulting to people like me who grew up ridiculously poor but worked very hard to get to where I am, today. It's is another insulting liberal idea. "No no, shut up you poor person. You can't make it on your own. You're crippled. The world needs to spoon feed you so you can have a chance at success!"


On the other hand, quite clearly, poor people are disadvantaged. Clearly.


Alright (said in Matthew McConaughey's voice). That should cover that topic.


Now bring on the free tuition. I've never taken that comic to be feel sorry for poor people.

I've always seen basically say the same thing you said. Poor people start off disadvantaged.

But for me the bigger point I've always taken when I've seen it is more a message for the privileged that don't want to recognize those advantages they have. So your self made men type people who like to call poor people lazy while forgetting all the help they've had getting to where they are.

At least that has always been my take on it.