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Does anybody care to show me how this argument looks like? Any Christian's here?

God doesnt play dice with the universe.
A pretty smart guy made that observation.
Good enough for me.

So you believe in this argument?
Or rather you think this argument is true because a smart guy came up with it?

ID POV, in essence:

- The universe has countless physical attributes, that all fit together neatly and precisely, to produce planets, life and people.
- The odds of all this working out so well by chance are vastly beyond human comprehension. Thus, the universe had to be intelligently designed.

So...

- If ours is the only universe, then ID apparently has merit.
- If there is an infinitude of universes (eg, chaotic inflation), then ID doesn't have merit, because given infinite chances, sooner/later a universe like ours would pop up.

Your logic makes no sense. So because humans can't comprehend the odds of something it must mean the universe was designed intelligently?

Or maybe we just can't comprehend the fact nothing created this?

Originally posted by Surtur
Your logic makes no sense. So because humans can't comprehend the odds of something it must mean the universe was designed intelligently? Not my logic, but this is the argument (afaik). Personally, I'm waiting for the LHC to find one of those compactified dimensons, or for cosmologists to determine what those 'bruise' patterns in the cosmic microwave background mean.

As I understand it, there are currently quite a few theoretical models for a multiverse/parallel realities:

http://physics.about.com/od/astronomy/f/ParallelUniverseTypes.htm

I understand. Also it needs to be said that while a lot of things in nature do fit well, the circumstances needed for intelligent life to come about are incredibly rare.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/Imagine%20a%20puddle.jpg

I think you're racist against puddles.

I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s). In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me.

Narrowing it down to something smaller like 'creation vs evolution', I believe in evolution as the creation story to me is fairy-tale nonsense. But I also wonder if the mechanisms for evolution didn't have someone/thing/power behind it as opposed to more random chance(s).

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s).For reasons I've posted many times elsewhere (eg, nature of proof), neither am I convinced that physical reality is all there is. But ID is not the answer, IMHO. It is the physical version of an ontological argument, and I find those lacking as well.

For sure, as I said, in the end I ultimately don't know, just the concept of there being some greater power as opposed to just all randomness makes more sense to me.

The watch argument or even the eye argument are silly to me. Even if evolution were proven to be false, that in of itself does not prove God/ID to be true on that merit alone. Also find the God-of-The-Gaps argument to be faulty.

Originally posted by Mindship
As I understand it, there are currently quite a few theoretical models for a multiverse/parallel realities:
No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models.

Originally posted by riv6672
God doesnt play dice with the universe.
A pretty smart guy made that observation.
Good enough for me. Terrible haiku.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s). In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me.

Narrowing it down to something smaller like 'creation vs evolution', I believe in evolution as the creation story to me is fairy-tale nonsense. But I also wonder if the mechanisms for evolution didn't have someone/thing/power behind it as opposed to more random chance(s).
You state your belief but don't state why. Why do you think think it had an intelligent design? What leads you to think this?

Originally posted by Astner
No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models.
Those damn string theorists give scientists a bad image.

Big Bang theory gives the impression of an intelligent design in the works.

Big Bang process is apparently continuous and leading to creation of new and more advanced/complex stuff with passage of time in the Universe at large.

Have a look:

http://meta-gaia.angelfire.com/big_bang_nageo.jpg

http://www.cosmosup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/BigBang.jpg

http://www.khabdha.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/big_bang1.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models. Close enough. . They still suggest a far more viable path of investigation than empirically searching for an immaterial superconsciousness.

Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
You state your belief but don't state why.

Why do you think think it had an intelligent design? What leads you to think this?

I did actually, here it is again: "In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me."

I'm not an ID proponent in the sense of the actual ID theory, though I don't think we can call ID a theory.

Originally posted by Astner
Not really.Go on.

Random pet peeve: If a day ever came where intelligent design was proven, skeptics would still be pricks to the faithful, claiming they're still idiots because they didn't actually know.

Originally posted by cdtm
Random pet peeve: If a day ever came where intelligent design was proven, skeptics would still be pricks to the faithful, claiming they're still idiots because they didn't actually know.
You do the skeptic little justice: the skeptic wouldn't claim that they would be skeptic of the the evidence.

Btw, does everyone here know that 'Intelligent Design' was original invented to claim aliens made life on Earth, and it was later repurposed by creationists?

Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
Does anybody care to show me how this argument looks like? Any Christian's here?

I'll comment the wide majority of Christians don't believe in intelligent design. It's much more common to believe that God caused evolution.

Well, if Alliens created Earth, then Christians would believe they did so by God's will

Originally posted by Q99
It's much more common to believe that God caused evolution.

Like with everything.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, does everyone here know that 'Intelligent Design' was original invented to claim aliens made life on Earth, and it was later repurposed by creationists?



I'll comment the wide majority of Christians don't believe in intelligent design. It's much more common to believe that God caused evolution.
Intelligent design has been around for centuries, but it wasn't named ID necessarily.

Yes, I suppose the Christian position is evolving with new scientific evidence and information.

Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
Intelligent design has been around for centuries, but it wasn't named ID necessarily.

The modern version of the argument, that specifically says that humans couldn't have come from nature because we're too complex (and which older creationism wouldn't have thought to say because us being evolved didn't seem on the table), as well as the term, and most importantly trying to pseudo-science it up in scientific language as a 'competing theory' with evolution, were set down by William A. Dembski who named the intelligent designer as a 'god or alien life force'.


Also for some irony, a number of Creationist groups are against it for not being properly biblical- it does, after all, tried to hide that t's an argument for god in non-religious term.

Well yes I was just about to talk about that, I have no problem with the idea of intelligent design for humanity. Just looking at the stuff we can do with genetic manipulation..a race vastly more advanced? Could surely of engineered us. Or modified us. But with technology, not via magic powers.

That is a lot harder to swallow then "guy who exists outside of time and space did it".

One of my favorite themes in scifi is reinterpreting natural phenomena as works of/intervention by alien superintelligence. Eg, the 2001: space odyssey Monolith; Cygnus x-1 in Contact (the book, not the film); and my favorite, from Baxter's Ring novel: the Great Attractor.

I had written a short story some years back where the accelerating expansion of the universe was due to alien superintelligence.

I'm just fascinated by the theme.

About 10 years ago a department at the University of Chicago basically announced that they thought that the human brain's evolution was the result of a "special event". Some later refer to it as the "big brain bang".

http://www.hhmi.org/news/human-brain-evolution-was-special-event

Basically the belief of Intelligent design stems from people thinking life is too complex to have developed on it's own. So you attribute it to whatever thing you want.

I have a deep infatuation for(let's say) dinosaurs, I propose dinosaurs are intelligent, so intelligent they faked their own death and created life as an experiment.

Originally posted by Surtur
About 10 years ago a department at the University of Chicago basically announced that they thought that the human brain's evolution was the result of a "special event". Some later refer to it as the "big brain bang".

http://www.hhmi.org/news/human-brain-evolution-was-special-event

I do believe the biggest factor in the event they're referring to coincides with the invention of cooking- which allowed us to get more calories from the same amount of food (about 15% more), giving us more energy to work with, requiring less energy put into digestions, which, in turn, made possible a lot more high-energy adaptations related to the brain and similar.


You do sometimes run across keystone changes that make a whole lot of future changes more possible because the species is in effect running with extra power.


Like imagine if everyone just suddenly switched to a fuel that was 20% more efficient. You'd see a lot of changes from car makers that'd continue to happen for years as people found new ways to take advantage of the extra power. Different engines, some more efficient, some higher power. Things becoming lighter (doesn't have to carry as much gas for the same performance) or heavier (can carry more stuff including gas) become possible, etc..

Neanderthal can be considered 'sports utility humans,' that while popular for a time, ultimate got phased out in favor of lighter humans with better gas millage.


Originally posted by Surtur
Well yes I was just about to talk about that, I have no problem with the idea of intelligent design for humanity. Just looking at the stuff we can do with genetic manipulation..a race vastly more advanced? Could surely of engineered us. Or modified us. But with technology, not via magic powers.

That is a lot harder to swallow then "guy who exists outside of time and space did it".

It is arguably more plausible, yet at the same time we have a couple 'errors' that I feel makes it unlikely.

For example, we have a small blind spot in our eyes due to where the nerves connect to the cornea.

There's no particular reason for nerves to connect there, and in some animals they connect elsewhere, resulting in no blindspot.


There's a lot of little things that could be tweeked and improved pretty easily, and a genetic engineer would likely notice these types of things in an error check.

Maybe they didn't want to make us perfect? After all some say at first it was done to use us as slave labor, so I could see them not going all out. Assuming that is true of course.

Originally posted by Q99
For example, we have a small blind spot in our eyes due to where the nerves connect to the cornea.

There's no particular reason for nerves to connect there, and in some animals they connect elsewhere, resulting in no blindspot.


There's a lot of little things that could be tweeked and improved pretty easily, and a genetic engineer would likely notice these types of things in an error check.

I just wanted to say this argument does make a bit of sense, but to me it especially then shows there is no benevolent god-like force, since why would God purposely give us a blindspot?

I mean either God isn't perfect or he's a douche and gave us a blindspot on purpose.