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Sabers only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjmT8Ij0Y_0

Vader already beat a better Grievous, so why is this a a thing? Ten more minutes of stupid from Antoine Bandele.

Grievous

Vader wins.

Darth Vader, IMO.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader already beat a better Grievous, so why is this a a thing? Ten more minutes of stupid from Antoine Bandele.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader already beat a better Grievous, so why is this a a thing? Ten more minutes of stupid from Antoine Bandele.

Why do you think it's stupid? He actually just released A Darth Maul Vs Kar Vastor one.

Probably because he goes on for about ten and a half minutes about something that contradicts the information we've been given. Which, yes, is the definition of stupid. And really glad guy on YouTube made another video recently. Highlight of day.

Grievous pretty easily. My only problem with the video was that Grievous should have won by a greater margin.

Wut? Vader takes this no doubt.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Grievous pretty easily. My only problem with the video was that Grievous should have won by a greater margin.

What makes you think Grevious would win easily IYO?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Grievous pretty easily. My only problem with the video was that Grievous should have won by a greater margin.

Out the window, goes whatever bit of credibility you ever had (which, admittedly, was never much from the start)

I like how not only is his opinion shit, but it also contradicts itself. That's pretty ****ing lulzy.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Probably because he goes on for about ten and a half minutes about something that contradicts the information we've been given. Which, yes, is the definition of stupid. And really glad guy on YouTube made another video recently. Highlight of day.

How is it contradictory?

Because Vader already was chopping off limbs left and right with a cyborg that was superior to Grievous, and this was Vader past his prime? Antoine's wrong. Time to move on.

Didn't Vader only chop off one arm? Immediately after slamming Karbin on the ground with the Force? And is there any proof Karbin is more skilled than Grievous?

Nope, he basically said he only need one lightsaber and immediately chopped and arm off. Then Better-Grievous ran away. Snuck up on him. Hit him, and still somehow failed to kill him. Then when Vader deflected every blow from him, he got pushed away. And it was a statement by the guy who created him, so...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader already beat a better Grievous, so why is this a a thing? Ten more minutes of stupid from Antoine Bandele. To be fair, he's at least a cut above the rest.

Jensairai wishes he was on Antoine's level.

Even if they're both tremendously awful.

I remember watching all those star wars match-ups and thinking "Wow, these guys are smart!!"

I was stupid.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nope, he basically said he only need one lightsaber and immediately chopped and arm off. Then Better-Grievous ran away. Snuck up on him. Hit him, and still somehow failed to kill him. Then when Vader deflected every blow from him, he got pushed away. And it was a statement by the guy who created him, so... "When you wield the power of the dark side, one lightsaber is all you need." Yeah, he chops his arm off while Karbin is down on the ground, after he slammed him with the Force. I doubt he would have been able chop the limb off (at least that quickly, I can't really be certain how Vader would've fared without using the Force offensively) without ragdolling him first - and I don't think it's proof Vader > Grievous in a sabers only match. And what was Cylo's exact quote regarding Karbin / Grievous?

I also just noticed Karbin had Ahsoka's exact same lightsaber hilt from the Clone Wars... mmm

I'll look again, but you mind explaining how you doubt Vader could do something defensive Kenobi did without any effort?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4606142-1712004874-46060.jpg
EDIT: He says Grevious was only a first step. Unless you think he meant a step backwards, Karbin is supposed to be an improvement. Considering he hasn't gotten the upper hand on Vader at all, quite the opposite, he's obviously not comparable to Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'll look again, but you mind explaining how you doubt Vader could do something defensive Kenobi did without any effort?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4606142-1712004874-46060.jpg
EDIT: He says Grevious was only a first step. Unless you think he meant a step backwards, Karbin is supposed to be an improvement. Considering he hasn't gotten the upper hand on Vader at all, quite the opposite, he's obviously not comparable to Vader. It looked more like he was saying Karbin's design was a first step, not Grievous' design.

Not that I think Grievous would beat Vader. But that could very well be Cylo jerkin off his own work, and it says nothing about the difference in lightsaber skill between Grievous and Karbin.

@Freshest: Grievous overloaded Kenobi's defense - his victory was hardly without effort.

I'm not seeing how that scan confirms Karbin > Grievous...

He literally just decided Grevious was hitting him too much so he chopped his arm off.

Because it's flat out said?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
@Freshest: Grievous overloaded Kenobi's defense - his victory was hardly without effort.

I'm not seeing how that scan confirms Karbin > Grievous...

Tell me at which point during the fight exactly does Grievous overload Kenobi's defense?

@Freshest: At the very least it's implied that Karbin is technologically more sophisticated - but nowhere is it stated or implied he's more skilled than Grievous.

@Valerian: After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it. -Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Originally posted by |King Joker|
@Freshest: At the very least it's implied that Karbin is technologically more sophisticated - but nowhere is it stated or implied he's more skilled than Grievous.

@Valerian: After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it. -Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Yeah I highly doubt Karbin > Grievous, if Grievous is even being described as the first step. He was trained in and mastered multiple forms of lightsaber combat by one of the greatest duellists of the age, if not history, and built on that with innumerable engagements with elite Jedi.

Having a better design (if that's even the case, this Mon Cal chicken looks pretty dumb) isn't going to grant Karbin Grievous' level of skill, experience or ingenuity. In fact I'd question if he's trained in the classic forms at all, Cylo doesn't exactly have any holocrons.

EDIT: And isn't this Legends Grievous? If so the Canon Vader comic isn't even applicable.

Meh. Karbin hasn't impressed me as much as I was hoping.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
@Freshest: At the very least it's implied that Karbin is technologically more sophisticated - but nowhere is it stated or implied he's more skilled than Grievous.

That was kind of the point of making him. I doubt they were thinking, "Hey, Emperor Palpatine, let's just load up this dude for 15ish years, and say, "Give him a real test of those robotics," which make up for just about all of Grievous relevancy in Star Wars anyway, not his amazing skill.

@Beni: Even if you say it is Legends Grievous, you'd have to go through the trouble of explaining why Vader would have anymore trouble than Obi-Wan did in RotS or TCW; it obviously wasn't his amazing Soresu that pulled that win.

Originally posted by |King Joker|


@Valerian: After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it. -Revenge of the Sith Novelization

So... He overloaded Kenobi's defense for mere seconds before getting his hand cut off... In the novelization, which is lower canon than the movie. In the movie, we can see it doesn't take Kenobi that much effort to cut off Grievous's attack, tbh.

^ You can't really see how easy or difficult it was for Kenobi. We only see how long it took him to defeat Grievous.

But then counting the wider Canon (TCW), it's obvious Grievous certainly isn't easy pickings for him (Yes I know Kenobi had improved by ROTS but so had Grievous).

If anything, it looked like Kenobi was straining even if he cut off Grievous's arms quickly.

Maybe, but straining for like ten seconds before absolutely destroying him. Movie or novelization, it's noticeable that Grievous was not the biggest of challenges for Kenobi. He had a lot more trouble with guys like Maul, Ventress or Savage.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
@Beni: Even if you say it is Legends Grievous, you'd have to go through the trouble of explaining why Vader would have anymore trouble than Obi-Wan did in RotS or TCW; it obviously wasn't his amazing Soresu that pulled that win. I never said Grievous would win, merely that he's better than Karbin.

Also please size your photos properly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I never said Grievous would win, merely that he's better than Karbin.

Also please size your photos properly.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
What makes you think Grevious would win easily IYO?

Well that was mostly to get that response out of Freshest but basically Grievous is faster, more agile equal or greater in endurance, strength and durability and is likely more skilled given he stalemated Mace whilst hindered.

Vader's Force powers would easily overwhelm Grievous.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Vader's Force powers would easily overwhelm Grievous.

Yeah but this is sabers only is it not?

Right, forgot about that.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Vader's Force powers would easily overwhelm Grievous.


I wouldn't say easily. Grievous's reconstruction was mostly designed to undermine the use of the Force. It's all whether or not Vader can keep his distance which will be hard if Grievous is constantly pressing him. In an all out, I think it really depends on the environment.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I wouldn't say easily. Grievous's reconstruction was mostly designed to undermine the use of the Force. It's all whether or not Vader can keep his distance which will be hard if Grievous is constantly pressing him. In an all out, I think it really depends on the environment.

Well, in RotS, Kenobi can easily dispatch him with a Force push. Vader's powers are well above him. I would say, if not easily, not with much difficulty, either.

In Return of the Sith Obi Wan's defenses were being overwhelmed by Grievous. He only managed to land a force push after literally disarming him. Grievous has also dodged force pushes in narrow hall ways before.

Vader takes it because of the insane speed at which he can use TK ( crushing TIE fighters flying straight towards him ).

Originally posted by Syndicate
In Return of the Sith Obi Wan's defenses were being overwhelmed by Grievous. He only managed to land a force push after literally disarming him. Grievous has also dodged force pushes in narrow hall ways before.

Vader takes it because of the insane speed at which he can use TK ( crushing TIE fighters flying straight towards him ).

Grievous was actually warned by Dooku not to engage any Council member in combat, thinking he wouldn't be able to defeat any of them. This notion is further evidenced by his defeat at Kenobi's hands. As I've said, it's not like Grievous was easy pickings for Kenobi, but he was no where near his most difficult duel, and not by a long shot.

Vader is a superior duelist to most of the PT Council members, and I think anyone can vouch for that. Grievous won't win against Vader.

Actually he likely was given that that was Kenobi's prime and it stated his defenses were being overwhelmed. Also you're ignoring the context of that statement. It was when Dooku was chiding Grievous. Also Grievous has already fought Mace Windu and stalemated him whilst hindered and I'm sure I don't need to tell you why the idea of Cin Drallig beating Grievous is laughable.

I actually don't think that Vader necessarily is a better duelist then most PT era characters. We've seen Vader's defense pierced multiple times in the EU and Old Ben managed to fight him to a standstill though I'm sure if the duel continued Vader would have won.

Groeivous lost to Fisto in one fight, and overhelmed Kenobi in other. Hard to tell, but either of them wont winn that fight easily.

Nah. Vader wins. And easily too.

He is, after all, confirmed to be a better duelist than Sidious.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Vader wins. And easily too.

He is, after all, confirmed to be a better duelist than Sidious.

Lol. xD True dat. But then again Kas'im could overwhelm Sidious's defenses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nuXGOO1uKo

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Vader wins. And easily too.

He is, after all, confirmed to be a better duelist than Sidious. Legends Vader tho.

Canon Vader pwns no question.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Actually he likely was given that that was Kenobi's prime and it stated his defenses were being overwhelmed. Also you're ignoring the context of that statement. It was when Dooku was chiding Grievous. Also Grievous has already fought Mace Windu and stalemated him whilst hindered and I'm sure I don't need to tell you why the idea of Cin Drallig beating Grievous is laughable.

I actually don't think that Vader necessarily is a better duelist then most PT era characters. We've seen Vader's defense pierced multiple times in the EU and Old Ben managed to fight him to a standstill though I'm sure if the duel continued Vader would have won.

Whatever, defenses being overwhelmed for like 5 seconds until he regained his composure and got the upper hand. That's not really straining yourself to a high point. And there's no way Grievous was getting out of the Windu fight alive. And actually, Cin Dralling beating Grievous is not laughable, considering he was the Battlemaster and considering Kit Fisto gave Grievous a run for his money.

Seriously, Vader would defeat any of the PT Council members, with the exception of Yoda or Windu. He has demonstrated considerably more strength in the Force than any of them, and his lightsaber skills, while hindered by his injuries, are still extremely formidable. I don't think anyone would disagree.

He didn't regain his composure. He gave himself completely to the Force and imo entered a state of Oneness.

When your defenses are being overwhelmed and you're proclaimed to be THE master of the most defensive form things are not going well. He had to give himself completely to the Force to land a counter on Grievous that allowed him to gain the advantage in their fight.

Actually its outright stated that Grievous was more inconvenienced by their environment then Mace was and he still stalemated him actually going on the defensive after taking a few moments to completely analyze Mace's form.

You mean considering that Cin Drallig is featless aside from bing roflstomped by Anakin? Lol. Kit Fisto who is stated to be one of the the best swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order is stated to be Shaak Ti and Obi Wan's ( in Cestus Deception ) direct superior and has a form and fighting style that is well suited to fighting Grievous's own along with the fact that Grievous was injured at the time.

I don't doubt that Vader could defeat any of the Council Members aside from Mace or Yoda if it's an all out fight but we're talking about pure lightsaber skills. Formidable sure but so are the Council Members. I would considering Vader has had his guard pierced by no names on several occasions and was having trouble with Old Ben.

Originally posted by Syndicate
He didn't regain his composure. He gave himself completely to the Force and imo entered a state of Oneness.

Did you just say Windu went into a say of Oneness by embracing an idea?

Obi Wan.

That's actually even dumber.

Indeed.

*Shrug* It's just what I think. It says Obi Wan is letting the force flow through him and guiding his actions so he's certainly in a heightened state at the point wherein he employs his counter.

That's flowery text for Obi-Wan was super focused. You know that right? I mean unless you think Dooku went into Oneness to TK Obi-Wan.

Vader hands down

The poll results are interesting. It's 15-5 in favor of Grievous, and yet almost everyone posting is siding with Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's flowery text for Obi-Wan was super focused. You know that right? I mean unless you think Dooku went into Oneness to TK Obi-Wan.

I'm assuming its similarly flowery?

Originally posted by red8
The poll results are interesting. It's 15-5 in favor of Grievous, and yet almost everyone posting is siding with Vader.

That's because the dissenting opinion is usually louder. And everybody else is a coward/lazy.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm assuming its similarly flowery?
It says he takes power from all over the galaxy and all of the Dark Side, so yes.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It says he takes power from all over the galaxy and all of the Dark Side, so yes.

Can I get the exact quote for comparison purposes?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader already beat a better Grievous, so why is this a a thing? Ten more minutes of stupid from Antoine Bandele.

The only stupidity is you. If you had actually paid attention he clearly stated that the video uses Legends continuity only.

Anton Bandele is a genius on par with Jensaarai1. His videos are a joy to watch.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The only stupidity is you. If you had actually paid attention he clearly stated that the video uses Legends continuity only.

Anton Bandele is a genius on par with Jensaarai1. His videos are a joy to watch.

Above Jensari IMO.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Above Jensari IMO.

Same. He does his videos ComicVine style where he always brings his evidence to the table instead of biased guessing. I like Jensaaurai's videos although some just make his standout Exar Kun Vs Darth Vader one all the more better. Like did we really need Yoda Vs Malak?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Above Jensari IMO.

It's not hard to be better than Jensaarai1. But Antoine is actually not bad, he's mostly correct.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It's not hard to be better than Jensaarai1. But Antoine is actually not bad, he's mostly correct.

Agreed. Antoine for the most part is positive except for that collaboration he did with Reti4. I feel that wasn't entirely accurate although I can see where they were coming from.

Vader takes him down hard.

Originally posted by deathslash
Vader takes him down hard.

Another post lacking any reason other then "HURDURVADERWINSBECAUSEHE'SCOOL!!!"

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Same. He does his videos ComicVine style where he always brings his evidence to the table instead of biased guessing.

On reflection yes, Antoine is a better analyst then Jensaarai1.

I wouldn't call it biased guessing though (except for a few times when he does let bias affect his judgement). Mostly I see him as willing to make his own interpretations. I like that, it shows imagination.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Another post lacking any reason other then "HURDURVADERWINSBECAUSEHE'SCOOL!!!"

Precisely.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Another post lacking any reason other then "HURDURVADERWINSBECAUSEHE'SCOOL!!!"

The fact that he's 80% of Sidious should be more than enough to solve this.

The fact that Vader is superior to almost every Jedi in the PT also. Including most Council members.

The fact that Vader's dueling skills do not become as affected after his injuries to the point you may think.

The fact that Fisto is able to defeat Grievous and the obvious knowledge that Vader's saber skills > Fisto's.

The fact that you weren't able to provide evidence that Kenobi had a hard time with Grievous, considering both the novel and the movie portray Grievous's defeat on his hands not nearly as difficult or hard-fought as with the likes of Savage or Ventress, who are both inferior to Vader.

Grievous is good, but people saying he's good enough to defeat someone like Vader is just imo ridiculous, considering what Vader has done, who he's apprenticed to and how powerful he is.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
On reflection yes, Antoine is a better analyst then Jensaarai1.

I wouldn't call it biased guessing though (except for a few times when he does let bias affect his judgement). Mostly I see him as willing to make his own interpretations. I like that, it shows imagination.



Precisely.

What is your view on his collaboration with Reti4 about The Sith vs the Jedi.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The fact that he's 80% of Sidious should be more than enough to solve this.

The fact that Vader is superior to almost every Jedi in the PT also. Including most Council members.

The fact that Vader's dueling skills do not become as affected after his injuries to the point you may think.

The fact that Fisto is able to defeat Grievous and the obvious knowledge that Vader's saber skills > Fisto's.

The fact that you weren't able to provide evidence that Kenobi had a hard time with Grievous, considering both the novel and the movie portray Grievous's defeat on his hands not nearly as difficult or hard-fought as with the likes of Savage or Ventress, who are both inferior to Vader.

Grievous is good, but people saying he's good enough to defeat someone like Vader is just imo ridiculous, considering what Vader has done, who he's apprenticed to and how powerful he is.


This.

Iirc Antoine retracted his opinion on that video.

I would hope so. Dooku really could solo that contest.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I would hope so. Dooku really could solo that contest.

^ Yep. Maul was also being undervalued.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The fact that he's 80% of Sidious should be more than enough to solve this.

The fact that Vader is superior to almost every Jedi in the PT also. Including most Council members.

The fact that Vader's dueling skills do not become as affected after his injuries to the point you may think.

The fact that Fisto is able to defeat Grievous and the obvious knowledge that Vader's saber skills > Fisto's.

The fact that you weren't able to provide evidence that Kenobi had a hard time with Grievous, considering both the novel and the movie portray Grievous's defeat on his hands not nearly as difficult or hard-fought as with the likes of Savage or Ventress, who are both inferior to Vader.

Grievous is good, but people saying he's good enough to defeat someone like Vader is just imo ridiculous, considering what Vader has done, who he's apprenticed to and how powerful he is.

The fact that you continue to fail at realizing that this is sabers only.

The fact that Vader being 80% of Sidious's power means nothing without the feats to back it up.

The fact that this only applies in a force sense and this is a lightsabers only fight.

The fact that while this is true we can see his guard pierced by opponents who are far slower, less skilled and less aggressive then Grievous.

Except you have no proof that Vader's saber skills are superior to Fisto's and ignored the fact that Fisto had a form advantage over Grievous and Grievous had been injured prior to their fight.

The fact that you ignored my prior posts stating that Obi Wan's defenses were being overloaded by Grievous.

Because I'm a nice guy I'll post it again.

"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense." - Revenge of the Sith

Lol wut. You're reasoning for Vader being superior is because he's an apprentice of Palpatine and because he's "done stuff?"

Ngl this is pretty sad.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This.

Since I see you hold the same views care to counter?

Lmfao.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


The fact that Fisto is able to defeat Grievous and the obvious knowledge that Vader's saber skills > Fisto's.



Gordon Bennet, again LEGENDS CONTINUITY ONLY! Antoine flat-out stated that he wasn't using anything from that dumb cartoon.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Lmfao.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Gordon Bennet, again LEGENDS CONTINUITY ONLY! Antoine flat-out stated that he wasn't using anything from that dumb cartoon.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Hey watch yourself. TCW was a good show. It's a shame Disney retired it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Since I see you hold the same views care to counter?

Vader is basically the stronger version of Anakin Skywalker. This Anakin Skywalker who at his strongest beat Count Dooku. With his time in the suit and the weakness he received, he overcame them through trianing and experience. This made him expand his single minded Djem So technique, into a hybrid style made up of aspects of all seven forms. This turned him into what Palpatine called, the greatest Jeei killer of all time beating the former holder of that position in Genral Grevious and others such as Darth Malgus.

Palpatine regards Darth Vader as the greatest jedi killer of all time:

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.
-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

Now to there respective showings. First lets get over Vader's handicaps in his speed and mobility.

Vader's armor provides him with great mobility in spite of his nerves and muscles being severely damaged:

Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves.
-- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914756-0620353765-32566.jpg



should also be noted that Vader was stated by Ferus as being faster than anyone he had ever seen move, aside from Yoda. That includes Vader himself as a Padawan, when he could move so fast that he seemed to be everywhere at once:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.

But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.
-- Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

Here are just a few showings of his speed.


Windu vs Grevious. That battle is considered a stalemate I believe. However when you consider who Windu is, if the battle were on more even ground where the two didn't have to worry about staying in the train Windu would have won. This is backed by how Dooku, while he has a deep understanding of Grevious' style was able to disarm the cyborg general. Windu is seen as the complete equal to Dooku, so this was of course due to an unstable environment that allowed Grevious to make it as far as he did. While I'm not saying in legends he(Grevious) is weak, he shouldn't be on that level. Windu being on level of Dooku would allow him to be able to while not crush, but not be statemed, if the battle were on neutral ground. One thing I would also like to point out is that Windu while under vaapad was able to stay on par the likes of ROTS Sidious. There is a big gap in between Grevious and Sidious at full power. The speed, and power are extremely different


Grevious vs the Jedi on Hypori. One sentence. They were all tired. Grevious wouldn't be able to handle Shaak Ti and Ki adi Mundi and the others if they were at full health.


Now onto Vader's showings.

Part 2 coming in a sec.

Despite the fact that he is still not used to his suit, Vader kills Jedi Master Bol Chatak:

Bol Chatak had unwound her headcloth, revealing her vestigial horns, and had ignited the lightsaber Shryne thought she'd had sense enough to ditch when they were captured. Vader whirled, watching Chatak as she began to stalk him, prisoners and troopers alike giving her wide berth. "So much the better that one of you survived," he said, waving his lightsaber back and forth in front of him. "The commandos saved your life, and now you hope to save theirs, is that it?"

Chatak held her blue blade at shoulder height. "My only intent is to take you out of the hunt." Vader's angled his blade to point toward the ground. "You won't be the first Jedi I've killed." Their blades met with an explosion of light. Fearing that the prisoners would use the distraction to scatter, Salvo's men hurried in to form a cordon around them. Pressed in among everyone,

Shryne lost sight of Chatak and Vader, but he could tell from the angry clashes of their blades that the duel was fast and furious. Momentarily immobilized, he allowed himself to be swept up in the surge of the crowd, so that he might be raised up over the heads of those in front of him. For a moment he was.

Just long enough to glimpse Chatak, all grace and speed, working her way into her opponent's space. Her moves were broad and circular, and the lightsaber seemed an extension of her. Vader, by contrast, was clumsy, and his strikes were mostly vertical. He was, however, a full head taller than Chatak and incredibly powerful. At various times his stances and techniques mimicked those of Ataru and Soresu, but Vader appeared to lack a style of his own, and executed his moves stiffly. With a whirling motion Chatak got far enough inside Vader's long reach to inflict a forearm wound. But Vader scarcely reacted to the hit, and instead of seeing cauterized flesh

Shryne saw sparks and smoke fountain through Vader's slashed glove. Then he lost sight of them again. Wedged into the crowd, he wondered if he could use the Force to call one of the trooper's blaster rifles into his grip. At the same time he hoped that Starstone had abandoned her lightsaber at the landing platform, and wouldn't attempt to join her Master against Vader.

We need to learn what happened to the Jedi, he tried to send to her. Our time for dealing with Vader will come. Be patient. He wondered if he was right. Maybe he should attempt to reach Chatak, weapon or no. Maybe his life was meant to end here, on Murkhana. He looked to the Force for guidance, and the Force restrained him.

A pained cry cut through the chaos, and the crowd of prisoners parted just long enough for Shryne to see Chatak down on her knees in front of Vader, her sword arm amputated at the elbow. Vader had simply beaten her into submission , and now, with a flick of his bloodshine blade, he decapitated her.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

He duels and easilly defeats 2 skilled Jedi Knights, who were using radically different lightsaber styles in an attempt to unbalance him, while merely toying with them. He then proceeds to injure one Padawan and defeat another:

As was the case with many Jedi Knights, the two were familiar with accounts of what had happened on Geonosis when Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker had gone after the Sith Lord, Count Dooku. And so Forte and Kulka went in as a team, each of them employing a radically different lightsaber style, determined to off-balance Vader.

But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.

Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed. Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.

Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone. Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced fighter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe's right arm, and Nam's right leg.

To her horror, Starstone realized she was suddenly alone with Vader, who immediately signaled his stormtroopers to leave her to him, and to devote themselves to slaughtering the few Wookiees who remained on the tier. "Now you, Padawan," he said, as he began to circle her. Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with aver. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion.

So she retreated, altering her strategy and calming herself. Vader is so tall, so imposing... But perhaps I can get under or inside his guard as Master Chatak did "Your thoughts give you away, Padawan," he said in a flash. "You mustn't take the time to think. You must act on impulse. Instead of repressing youranger, call on it! Make use of it to defeat me."

Starstone feigned an attack, then sidestepped and slashed at him. Shifting to a one-handed hold on his lightsaber, he parried her blade and lunged forward. She snapped aside in the nick of time, but he kept coming at her, answering her increasingly frantic strikes with harsher ones and driving her inexorably toward the rim of the balcony. He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.

But only for a moment.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Vader frequently trained with droids programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen martial artists:

He left his lightsaber clipped to his belt. Ordinarily he would have used it to practice on the dueling droids that had been specially designed and constructed to test his mettle. Programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen different martial artists, and armed with deadly cutting or impact weapons, they were formidable opponents indeed, and had been an integral part of Sith training since time immemorial. But not everything was about the lightsaber. There were other attributes, other weapons in his arsenal, that needed exercising as well.
-- Death Star

That's debatable in and of itself. I have seen many on CV and other debate forums who would argue Anakin is the superior. While I may not hold that view myself I'd just like to note that your statement is in no way a fact or supported by the majority of people.

Yes, at a point when he is enraged by Dooku's goading and guided by Palpatine into accepting his anger.

I'm sure you know as well as I that statements like that don't mean much when doing a feat by feat and character by character analysis. Especially in a thread like this when we're discussing only one aspect of said "greatest Jedi killer."

I agree. Vader's speed and mobility weaknesses are over exaggerated in debates. This doesn't change the fact that he will be less agile then his former incarnation or someone like Grievous who can dodge force pushes in a narrow corridor. I also agree that Vader's form was restructured to account for this but I'd like to note that Vader has to rely on power blows and a relentless forward assault when going on the offensive rather then a swarm of strikes coming from every angle like Grievous due to this hampered mobility. Vader's style accounts for this and keeps these weaknesses from being exploited but it cannot make up for it and it still limits Vader in the ways which he can attack.

And that's fine and not something I would put outside of Vader's capabilities.

I'm sorry to have to prove you wrong here but the passage specifically notes that the environment favored Windu over Grievous in that fight.

"For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long." - Labrynth of Evil.

Speculation is fine but when the source specifically notes something that's when I can't really abide direct contradiction.

Tbh I never really got the whole Vader being less mobile/agile, given that Grevious' cybernetics compared to Vader's were inferior. (As I recall there was a quote right?)

I mean I guess it's just going off the old OT where they couldn't do much...but still. Although since were apparently gonna see him in Rogue One and they did state they were gonna make him look better movement wise right? Guess the whole movement/speed thing will be changed.

Then again, never really understood why they didn't expand on Vader's strength either, they did his great durability justice, but his strength feats while good, I think should have been much better.

I don't know about any quote like that tbh.

I believe he did have a rather impressive feat of punching a hole in a durasteel table.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Hey watch yourself. TCW was a good show. It's a shame Disney retired it.

You're entitled to your opinion. The point is that Antoine clearly stated in the video that he was not using the TCW version of Grievous.

TCW was great, it's handling of Grievous was cringeworthy though.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
TCW was great, it's handling of Grievous was cringeworthy though.

It was an enjoyable show, but Filoni is an imbecile.

Originally posted by Syndicate
The fact that you continue to fail at realizing that this is sabers only.

The fact that Vader being 80% of Sidious's power means nothing without the feats to back it up.

The fact that this only applies in a force sense and this is a lightsabers only fight.

The fact that while this is true we can see his guard pierced by opponents who are far slower, less skilled and less aggressive then Grievous.

Except you have no proof that Vader's saber skills are superior to Fisto's and ignored the fact that Fisto had a form advantage over Grievous and Grievous had been injured prior to their fight.

The fact that you ignored my prior posts stating that Obi Wan's defenses were being overloaded by Grievous.

Because I'm a nice guy I'll post it again.

"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense." - Revenge of the Sith

Lol wut. You're reasoning for Vader being superior is because he's an apprentice of Palpatine and because he's "done stuff?"

Ngl this is pretty sad.


It doesn't matter if this is sabers only. Dude's 80% of Sidious. Dude's one of the most powerful and skilled Sith Lords ever.

You're saying Vader is featless? You're saying Fisto is more skilled than Darth Vader?

Yeah, Maul's guard was also pierced by a far less skilled Padawan Kenobi. Mace also pierces Sidious's guard. Do you honestly believe those far slower, less skilled and less aggressive than Grievous would take Vader at least 6/10?

And I did not ignore those posts, I addressed them.

No, I'm not saying that. But I think you're underestimating what being the apprentice to the most powerful Sith Lord to live means, considering, again, that he's 80% of that power and regarded by his master as 'the greatest Jedi killer'.

If you agree his skills weren't that affected after his injury, how can you say he'd be beaten by Grievous considering Anakin was a PT top 5 duelist and bested Grievous's teacher in saber combat?

Yes and? How does this help in determining Vader's capabilities. Directly scaling off Sidious's own feats wouldn't even put him on the level he's currently at in regards to physicals aside from agility which we know he's not 80% as effective in Palpatine in due to the limitations of his suit. Also I don't see how power transfers to skill. Honestly that statement means pretty much nothing considering the Sidious he was being compared to at the time and his own relative feats.

Lol. Nice trying to take my words out of context. I'm saying if his feats don't back up the statement the statement itself means nothing.

I'm saying while Fisto may not be more skilled then Vader I find there's very little evidence to suggest Vader is more skilled then Fisto.

When? He put Maul on the defensive after his master's death but he didn't pierce his guard as far as I know.

Mace was amped in that instance as I would have expected you to known.

You mean the far faster, shown to be more skilled and more aggressive Grievous? Yes.

No you didn't. You ignored them just like you'll do to this post in your next response.

I'm not underestimating anything. I'm just not going to let statements that would not even apply here anyways considering Vader cannot use the force comparatively effect my view on how the fight would play out.

He bested Dooku not because he was more skilled but because he was comparatively skilled, had a form advantage, had a physical advantage and was goaded by Palpatine to embrace his rage.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes and? How does this help in determining Vader's capabilities. Directly scaling off Sidious's own feats wouldn't even put him on the level he's currently at in regards to physicals aside from agility which we know he's not 80% as effective in Palpatine in due to the limitations of his suit. Also I don't see how power transfers to skill. Honestly that statement means pretty much nothing considering the Sidious he was being compared to at the time and his own relative feats.

Lol. Nice trying to take my words out of context. I'm saying if his feats don't back up the statement the statement itself means nothing.

I'm saying while Fisto may not be more skilled then Vader I find there's very little evidence to suggest Vader is more skilled then Fisto.

When? He put Maul on the defensive after his master's death but he didn't pierce his guard as far as I know.

Mace was amped in that instance as I would have expected you to known.

You mean the far faster, shown to be more skilled and more aggressive Grievous? Yes.

No you didn't. You ignored them just like you'll do to this post in your next response.

I'm not underestimating anything. I'm just not going to let statements that would not even apply here anyways considering Vader cannot use the force comparatively effect my view on how the fight would play out.

He bested Dooku not because he was more skilled but because he was comparatively skilled, had a form advantage, had a physical advantage and was goaded by Palpatine to embrace his rage.


If anything, he's 80% of Sidious with the suit, not without it but still, it is suggested that Vader's inability to reach his full-potential is more of a psychological issue rather than a physical one. I believe the quote states Vader is, as he was when that quote was said, 80% of Sidious, not that he would be had he reached a higher potential.

I wasn't trying to put your words out of context. I apologize if it seemed so.

I think the evidence Sidious provided up there is quite good to determine that.

I'd consider pushing him back, making him fall to the ground and slicing his double-bladed saber in two a piercing of his guard.

I know he's amped, but that's not my point. My point is, do you think those guys you mentioned are capable of defeating Vader at least 6/10 times?

I did not ignore them:

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Whatever, defenses being overwhelmed for like 5 seconds until he regained his composure and got the upper hand. That's not really straining yourself to a high point.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
So... He overloaded Kenobi's defense for mere seconds before getting his hand cut off... In the novelization, which is lower canon than the movie. In the movie, we can see it doesn't take Kenobi that much effort to cut off Grievous's attack, tbh.

He bested Dooku because by that point, he was simply the better duelist.

I feel like this is almost not even worth responding to.

You know, it's really sad that we can't have a discussion without it getting personal. I have nothing against you, but if you'd rather just show a lack of respect towards my posts (which by the way aren't even dumb), just go ahead. I've been there, I've done that, and I've grown up.

You're right. I'm letting this forums pettiness get to me. I'll put up a response sometime today or tomorrow.

Yeah, it gets to you. It's fine.

Which is fine but feats are what matters unless you want to attempt to scale Vader's power off of what Sidious can do in regards to force storms though that's energy manipulations which is something Vader is unable to accomplish unamped due to the limitations of his suit. Also I understand that that was Sidious's theory but it doesn't change the fact that it's stated by official sources that Vader was less then what he was after losing his limbs.

It's fine. As I said above this forum gets to me sometimes.

How does power relate to skill though?

Ah I see what you mean. Fair enough though you should know it's my belief that Obi Wan was fighting at the peak of his abilities at the time after witnessing his master's death.

Council members? No, but lightsabers only I think they could give him a hell of a fight.

I don't care about levels of canon. Anything that doesn't contradict another source and is backed by at least one other source from a different medium is all equivalent to me. Obi Wan was able to recover in the way he did because he allowed himself to become an extension of the Force as stated in the novel.

Anakin was actually struggling to defeat Dooku until Sidious interfered in the fight and convinced him to embrace his rage.

Either loses to Coleman Trebor tbh. Grievous would get his ass handed to him by any council member, and Luke beat Vader but Luke would get his ass kicked by any council member.

Don't you guys just love Filoni's retarded statements about power levels?

Shadup.

NB4 Filoni says Anakin would lose to any council member because they're wiser and more masterful in the ways of the Force than him. The Forcecast would have a field day with that.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Don't you guys just love Filoni's retarded statements about power levels?

He's my favourite person in the universe.