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Back when Thor was depowered in the first movie and he infiltrated the SHIELD base, instead of the big black SHIELD agent he faced in the end he's confronted with Black Widow. Neither know anything about the other but both are going for the kill. Pure h2h fight. Who wins?

6.5 to Be faster more agile and bit better fighter he more brawler this those agents. She beat Barton and some ghoons while tied up.

Thor is stronger and more durable, and has a greater reach. That being said, on the aircraft carrier, Black Widow defeated Hawkeye using pure H2H. And that was after recovering from being back-handed by the Hulk. And she was holding back, trying to subdue him rather than kill him (which she did). And he was being mind-controlled and out to kill. He was also armed with full gear, including his bow, and a combat knife, all of which he used. And unlike the agents Thor fought, Hawkeye with his gear is hardly featless. Widow is also faster, more agile and, in my opinion, more skilled. Based on that, Widow takes this.

Also, BW pretty well (altho she was losing) against the WS. Someone faster and much stronger than depowered Thor. Not to mention armed.

BW also has the better posterior

Based off nothing but their size and the ease Depowered Thor was tossing full grown men around he may be close to legitamately superstrength. Without gadgets i'm not sure widow has the strength to drop him.

More like peak human. In Iron Man 2 she took down mutiple security guards in Hammer tech faster then Hogan could take one.

If Widow is without gadgets/weapons, Thor takes it.

Yes, she may be more skilled, but even a highly trained fighter will have trouble against a much stronger/larger opponent, and given Thor's insane level of battle experience the match tips heavily in his favour.

If Widow has her stun weapons and whatnot, it may be a very different story.

Didn't she chituari hand to hand?

Originally posted by golem370
Didn't she chituari hand to hand?

You complain about me spelling something wrong and you can't even put sentences and words together..

Originally posted by golem370
Didn't she chituari hand to hand?

Yes, she fought the featless cannon fodder aliens, much like Jar Jar did with the droid army (the fight ended pretty much the same way too)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, BW pretty well (altho she was losing) against the WS. Someone faster and much stronger than depowered Thor. Not to mention armed.

BW only survived as long as she did against WS because she took him by surprise. As soon as her surprise element was gone WS threw her away like a gnat.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Yes, she fought the featless cannon fodder aliens, much like Jar Jar did with the droid army (the fight ended pretty much the same way too)

Those same aliens that caved in cars when they landed on it. She would win imo

She would not win. Deal with it.

Originally posted by golem370
Those same aliens that caved in cars when they landed on it. She would win imo

Remind me again how she was taking down Chitauri? Was she tearing them apart with her bare hands?

I'm fairly sure she was using weapons at the time.

With weapons.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Yes, she fought the featless cannon fodder aliens, much like Jar Jar did with the droid army (the fight ended pretty much the same way too)

Because those agents Thor fought had so many great H2H feats? Also, people are just ignoring that Widow bested Hawkeye in H2H, whose feats make him a far more dangerous opponent than anyone depowered Thor tussled with.

How does she take Thor down who will likely get ahold of her and choke her out?

She lasted a few seconds against WS in which he was distracted and she had weapons.

Based on feats, she is a lot more likely to get her legs around his neck and choke him out than the reverse. And so what if WS bested her? Depowered Thor is nowhere near WS. Hawkeye had his bow, arrows, a combat knife, was mind-control bloodlusted, and still couldn't defeat her, despite the fact that she was fighting to capture, and had just gotten swatted by the Hulk.

Depoweted Thor would slaughter Hawkee though.

What feats does Hawkeye have before that fight?

You seriously think depowered Thor could defeat a fully geared up Hawkeye? The same Hawkeye who used that exact same gear to take out countless aliens and robots during the two Avengers films? There is no evidence to suggest being mind-controlled had any kind of adverse effect on his skill level. Hell, he performs arguably two of his best shots (the carrier crippler and the USB shot) while mind-controlled.

If you do believe a depowered Thor, who understood so little of his limitations that he got his ass KO'd by a tazer, can take out a battle-ready Hawkeye, then we are going to have to agree to disagree in this thread. Because I see a depowered Thor going down hard to a Hawkeye armed with his bow and arrows.

Couple things to consider about the Hawkeye fight:

1. Setting of the fight didn't allow Hawkeye to properly utilize his bow. He fired off like what, one shot? Thor in the exact same scenario wouldn't have had trouble disarming Hawkeye either. Had the fight been in open ground, it would have been a lot different.
2. Hawkeye has next to zero h2h feats other than this fight. We have no idea just how good he is.
3. If we're to assume that Hawkeye is as good a h2h fighter as most top SHIELD agents are then that's pretty much how good the SHIELD agents were that Thor demolished.


As for the WS fight, how many times do I have to say this: BW only lasted so long due to surprise. When the surprise wore off, WS had no issue dealing with her. So it's not exactly a good showing of her h2h skill.

You're forgetting that Thor was hit by a truck just prior to the tazer.

Coulson even states the shield agents Thor demolished were among his best. Now widow > them but Thor destroyed them easily.

BW is a highly skilled martial artist, Thor is a highly skilled fighter.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You're forgetting that Thor was hit by a truck just prior to the tazer.

And he had his powers taken just before that and teleported to earth. Pretty sure that will mess anyone up.

Yea he lost all them, got sent to earth on his ass and became mortal then got run over and still beat the shit out of everyone.

Pretty good showing all things considered.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Remind me again how she was taking down Chitauri? Was she tearing them apart with her bare hands? There was a couple she teared into the metal/wiring to kill.

I don't see Thor doing as well in that situation. Even if he had access to the weapons she did.

Black Widow would win this, with only a slight struggle. Thor took out some SHIELD men she would likely tear apart just as easily, and she has more hand to hand feats including people like Winter Soldier and Hawkeye, not to mention aliens and robots.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Yes, she fought the featless cannon fodder aliens, much like Jar Jar did with the droid army (the fight ended pretty much the same way too) And Thor took out featless canon fodder agents. Two can play that game.

Proof that she could take out those SHIELD agents just as easily?

Originally posted by Arachnid1


And Thor took out featless canon fodder agents. Two can play that game.

And all the people she took out at Hammers base? Those were featless canon fodder and not even shield agents..

True, they were only security guards

Thor ****s the **** up.

Movie fodder olympics

Monsters>Aliens>Black Ops>Ninja>Bikers>Military>Police>Thugs>White Thugs>Hammer's Goons.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Couple things to consider about the Hawkeye fight:

1. Setting of the fight didn't allow Hawkeye to properly utilize his bow. He fired off like what, one shot? Thor in the exact same scenario wouldn't have had trouble disarming Hawkeye either. Had the fight been in open ground, it would have been a lot different.
2. Hawkeye has next to zero h2h feats other than this fight. We have no idea just how good he is.
3. If we're to assume that Hawkeye is as good a h2h fighter as most top SHIELD agents are then that's pretty much how good the SHIELD agents were that Thor demolished.


1. He got off more than one shot. And one of them he got off at the medium/close range he virtually never misses at when normally fighting opponents. He was fighting in similar relatively cramped conditions during the Avengers 2 fight in Wakanda, and didn't seem to have too much trouble. He even instantly drops a SW who tries to sneak up on him, using an arrow in melee no less. Hell, other than Widow or Loki, who has Hawkeye even missed? And that is debatable. What has Thor done to suggest that he could easily disarm Hawkeye of his bow, without being able to rely on his enhanced stats and other abilities for help? What has depowered Thor done to suggest he is actually fast and nimble enough to avoid getting hit by an arrow?
2. Actually no. We have seen him utilize his bow and arrows in melee during both the Avengers end fights, stabbing and hitting aliens etc. and they were Chitauri who could survive high distance falls, dig into concrete and had advanced laser weaponry, as well as metal Ultron robots that could fly, also easily bust through concrete etc. and had energy weapons. None of which a depowered Thor has. The same full gear he had against Widow. He also uses some of his arrows and a knife in melee against her, just like we have in fact seen him do during other battles. She on the flip-side, fought using just H2H.
3. So no, he HAS actual feats using said gear effectively at the same kind of range he was using it against Widow. Those agents Thor fought have absolutely no feats comparable. So to try to claim that the agents Thor fought were on par with him, just because they were SHIELD agents, does not work.

Hell, what proof do you have that any of those SHIELD agents Thor fought would have lasted more than a minute or two during the New York battle, or the Avengers 2 flying city battle?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
1. He got off more than one shot. And one of them he got off at the medium/close range he virtually never misses at when normally fighting opponents. He was fighting in similar relatively cramped conditions during the Avengers 2 fight in Wakanda, and didn't seem to have too much trouble. He even instantly drops a SW who tries to sneak up on him, using an arrow in melee no less. Hell, other than Widow or Loki, who has Hawkeye even missed? And that is debatable. What has Thor done to suggest that he could easily disarm Hawkeye of his bow, without being able to rely on his enhanced stats and other abilities for help? What has depowered Thor done to suggest he is actually fast and nimble enough to avoid getting hit by an arrow?


1. It was never shown, mentioned or hinted in the movies that removing Thor's powers made him slower or dulled his reflexes. So as far as we know, his reflex speed remained the same with or without powers. He pretty much fights at the same speed after all.

Which means he maintains the reflexes he did when he blocked laser fire with his hammer. Which means he has the same reflexes as when he fought Loki, Loki who was fast enough to catch an arrow.

Now if you want to claim that removing his powers also downgrades his reflexes, that's on you to prove.

Till then, yes, he has enough feats to show that he can dodge an arrow.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

2. Actually no. We have seen him utilize his bow and arrows in melee during both the Avengers end fights, stabbing and hitting aliens etc. and they were Chitauri who could survive high distance falls, dig into concrete and had advanced laser weaponry, as well as metal Ultron robots that could fly, also easily bust through concrete etc. and had energy weapons. None of which a depowered Thor has. The same full gear he had against Widow. He also uses some of his arrows and a knife in melee against her, just like we have in fact seen him do during other battles. She on the flip-side, fought using just H2H.


2. You listed feats of Hawkeye using his bow and arrow as melee WEAPONS. I was asking for h2h feats. If you're going to include his bow and arrow melee fights as h2h feats then we might as well include Thor's hammer fights as h2h feats as well. So yeah, again, what actual H2H feats does Hawkeye have other than fighting BW?


Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

3. So no, he HAS actual feats using said gear effectively at the same kind of range he was using it against Widow. Those agents Thor fought have absolutely no feats comparable. So to try to claim that the agents Thor fought were on par with him, just because they were SHIELD agents, does not work.

Hell, what proof do you have that any of those SHIELD agents Thor fought would have lasted more than a minute or two during the New York battle, or the Avengers 2 flying city battle?

3. Coulson mentioned how those SHIELD agents were "some of his best". Now that might not seem like much, until you realize the kind of agents Coulson employs in his team. Agents like Ward, May, Triplette, Bobbie... all top notch fighters. All capable of giving BW a run for her money. Even Skye who had very minimal training turned out to be a very competent fighter. What more full agents who graduated from the academie whom Coulson refers to as "some of his best"?

At the very least, those agents should be a lot more trained than the normal fodder BW takes out, and Thor took them out more easily than BW took out Hammer's goons. In the end, the "fodder" that Thor took out had a lot more credentials on paper than the fodder that Widow took out. I'd also like to mention that BW often employs weapons when she takes out fodder (chitauri, ultron bots, hammer goons, etc).

Also, here's BW's fight against WS. Forward to 0:58

You'll see she did almost nothing. Got the jump on him, tried to strangle him, that was it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkyzgRT0NOM

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. It was never shown, mentioned or hinted in the movies that removing Thor's powers made him slower or dulled his reflexes. So as far as we know, his reflex speed remained the same with or without powers. He pretty much fights at the same speed after all.

Which means he maintains the reflexes he did when he blocked laser fire with his hammer. Which means he has the same reflexes as when he fought Loki, Loki who was fast enough to catch an arrow.

Now if you want to claim that removing his powers also downgrades his reflexes, that's on you to prove.

Till then, yes, he has enough feats to show that he can dodge an arrow.


So Thor blocking things with his hammer means he can dodge arrows? Dodging something with your body and physically blocking something with an object are two very different things. And the fight with Widow was close range, not long range like the Loki shot. And also, if you want to use Loki as proof that Thor can do that, does that by extension mean that the big SHIELD agent who managed to give Thor a bit of a scuffle also has similar reflexes to Loki, being able to tussle with a depowered Thor? That's a dangerous line of reasoning to go down. With that kind of logic, every person a holding-back Green Arrow (considering we know he normally fights to disable/capture, not to kill) has fought in recent years and taken more than a short scuffle to defeat has arrow dodging/catching reflexes.

And, considering being depowered drastically weakened him in both strength and durability, as well as completely negating his other abilities and control over mjolnir, there is actually a potential argument for his speed/reactions also suffering at least somewhat.

Originally posted by FrothByte

2. You listed feats of Hawkeye using his bow and arrow as melee WEAPONS. I was asking for h2h feats. If you're going to include his bow and arrow melee fights as h2h feats then we might as well include Thor's hammer fights as h2h feats as well. So yeah, again, what actual H2H feats does Hawkeye have other than fighting BW?


Hawkeye uses a combination of H2H and his bow/arrows during those scenes I mentioned. Just like he did against Widow. That is the whole point. Her feat is fighting a mind controlled Hawkeye going all out. I don't need to provide just H2H feats for him because he didn't stick to H2H during their encounter, while she did. The argument I posted was how well an unarmed and depowered Thor could do under the same circumstances. Engaging a fully armed and mind-controlled Hawkeye in melee. The Widow/Hawkeye fight is an H2H feat for Widow, not Hawkeye. So no, it is not the same thing as giving Thor his hammer feats for this.

Originally posted by FrothByte

3. Coulson mentioned how those SHIELD agents were "some of his best". Now that might not seem like much, until you realize the kind of agents Coulson employs in his team. Agents like Ward, May, Triplette, Bobbie... all top notch fighters. All capable of giving BW a run for her money. Even Skye who had very minimal training turned out to be a very competent fighter. What more full agents who graduated from the academie whom Coulson refers to as "some of his best"?

At the very least, those agents should be a lot more trained than the normal fodder BW takes out, and Thor took them out more easily than BW took out Hammer's goons. In the end, the "fodder" that Thor took out had a lot more credentials on paper than the fodder that Widow took out. I'd also like to mention that BW often employs weapons when she takes out fodder (chitauri, ultron bots, hammer goons, etc).

They had to be good because they were SHIELD agents? Well, beyond already being regarded as top level SHIELD agents, Hawkeye and Widow are Avengers. Out of all the agents and operates SHIELD had available to them, including their other "best", it was those two who were considered to be so skilled, deadly and capable, that they could hold their own on a team alongside the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk. Part of a team that has to take on alien- and robot armies.

Also, just pointing out that I never brought up her fight against the WS. I know she was outclassed there.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So Thor blocking things with his hammer means he can dodge arrows? Dodging something with your body and physically blocking something with an object are two very different things. And the fight with Widow was close range, not long range like the Loki shot. And also, if you want to use Loki as proof that Thor can do that, does that by extension mean that the big SHIELD agent who managed to give Thor a bit of a scuffle also has similar reflexes to Loki, being able to tussle with a depowered Thor? That's a dangerous line of reasoning to go down. With that kind of logic, every person a holding-back Green Arrow (considering we know he normally fights to disable/capture, not to kill) has fought in recent years and taken more than a short scuffle to defeat has arrow dodging/catching reflexes.

And, considering being depowered drastically weakened him in both strength and durability, as well as completely negating his other abilities and control over mjolnir, there is actually a potential argument for his speed/reactions also suffering at least somewhat.


If you watch the Black Widow vs. Hawkeye fight, you'll see BW was already on the move when Hawkeye shot his arrow. BW didn't exactly dodge the arrow. It's not like she was standing there, Hawkeye shot, and she moved her body away from the arrow. It was BW moving, Hawkeye shooting and missing.

Definitely not as impressive as Thor just standing there and blocking MULTIPLE laser fire.

Thor is a better combatant than Loki, everyone agrees to this. Are you saying Loki somehow has faster reflexes than Thor?

But even if we discount Loki catching an arrow, Thor blocking those blaster bolts was more impressive than Black Widow constantly moving to avoid the ONE arrow that Hawkeye shot her way.


Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Hawkeye uses a combination of H2H and his bow/arrows during those scenes I mentioned. Just like he did against Widow. That is the whole point. Her feat is fighting a mind controlled Hawkeye going all out. I don't need to provide just H2H feats for him because he didn't stick to H2H during their encounter, while she did. The argument I posted was how well an unarmed and depowered Thor could do under the same circumstances. Engaging a fully armed and mind-controlled Hawkeye in melee. The Widow/Hawkeye fight is an H2H feat for Widow, not Hawkeye. So no, it is not the same thing as giving Thor his hammer feats for this.


Thanks for clarifying. That still doesn't change anything though because
1. Again this was fought at close distance so Hawkeye wasn't able to utilize his bow to it's full potential, meaning BW didn't fight a Clint that was a full potential.
2. Hawkeye still doesn't have any h2h/melee feats against notable fighters, which makes BW beating him in CQC unquantifiable in terms of how good it makes her look


Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

They had to be good because they were SHIELD agents? Well, beyond already being regarded as top level SHIELD agents, Hawkeye and Widow are Avengers. Out of all the agents and operates SHIELD had available to them, including their other "best", it was those two who were considered to be so skilled, deadly and capable, that they could hold their own on a team alongside the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk. Part of a team that has to take on alien- and robot armies.

Also, just pointing out that I never brought up her fight against the WS. I know she was outclassed there.

No, they had to be good because they were SHIELD agents whom Coulson considered some of his BEST. Consider this: Coulson is high enough in SHIELD rank that he can give orders to BW and Hawkeye. High enough that BW and Hawkeye call him sir. High enough that he can command his own team, get his own jet, even get Fury to break protocol and try to resurrect him with alien technology. A guy who's current team consists of field agents all immensely skilled in h2h combat. A guy who's actually a pretty good fighter himself. Are you telling me that what this guy considers as some of his "best men" are somehow all crappy fighters?

If there's one thing you address in my entire post, please answer this question. Do you doubt Coulson's judgement on what he considers his best agents?

To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing.

Fair enough. In reply, let me summarize my stance. BW and Hawkeye are considered top agents but they are never mentioned to be the top fighters of SHIELD. Both of them have zero h2h feats vs. decent opponents. All they ever take out are fodder, and BW usually takes out fodder with the help of weaponry.

Thor steamrolling through SHIELD agents means 1 of 2 things. Either
a. He's so skilled that he makes highly trained fighters look like minimum wage mall cops

or

b. The SHIELD agents are such crappy fighters that Thor one shots almost all of them


To support conclusion A, we have the following proof:

1. Coulson himself mentions that these agents were some of his best. Considering what we know of Coulson, I wouldn't take lightly any agent he considers as one of his best.

2. Every single SHIELD agent we know of, from Barton to Natasha to Ward to May to Triplette to Rumlow to Sharon Carter to even the half trained SKye... all have been excellent fighters


Now to support conclusion B, well, you really don't have anything to prove it. You can call them fodder all you want but bottom line is, everything we know about SHIELD field agents points to them being great h2h fighters... which is more than what we can say for the fodder BW has fought.

Add to that Thor's massive size and strength advantage and that's why I believe he wins over BW.

Coulson said but the s@id are you a merc or something like that he didn't think it was impossible. Be has defeated Hawkeye plus 5 or so hammer security guards she defeated thugs with her hands tied to a chair and at least 1 chitauri she also took a swipe from Hulk I think she wins.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing. Agreed with this. This post ties up the argument with a nice little bow.

Technically weren't the agents fodder too? That was depowered Thor only fight feat.

Well, as Froth did correctly point out, while they don't necessarily have feats, by virtue of being SHIELD Agents, they are likely to be a lot more competent than what most people would consider "fodder".

Hawkeye beat featless fodder. BW beat Hawkeye. How then is Hawkeye a good feat for BW? You keep mentioning Hawkeye having gear when he fought BW, but majority of that fight ended up h2h.

Do you have proof Fury picked BW and Hawkeye to be Avengers BECAUSE of their H2H skills? Let me ask you, when you see a marine with multiple awards and considered one of the best soldiers out there, do you automatically assume that he's the best h2h fighter among all marines? .

Besides, Fury didn't recruit Hawkeye into Avengers. Hawkeye got included in the fight when he was controlled by Loki.

Barton seemed like a spy/assassin he was there when Thor tried to get his hammer back in Thor he was there to keep an eye on the tessarct and BW said he was sent to kill her when she got on their radar he is shield operative

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed with this. This post ties up the argument with a nice little bow.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
And all the people she took out at Hammers base? Those were featless canon fodder and not even shield agents..

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hawkeye beat featless fodder. BW beat Hawkeye. How then is Hawkeye a good feat for BW? You keep mentioning Hawkeye having gear when he fought BW, but majority of that fight ended up h2h.

Do you have proof Fury picked BW and Hawkeye to be Avengers BECAUSE of their H2H skills? Let me ask you, when you see a marine with multiple awards and considered one of the best soldiers out there, do you automatically assume that he's the best h2h fighter among all marines? .

Besides, Fury didn't recruit Hawkeye into Avengers. Hawkeye got included in the fight when he was controlled by Loki.

It ended up in melee, but he still tried to use his bow, and even a knife. In a similar way he has been shown to handle both Ultron bots and Chitauri fighters who got up close. And even though you label them as fodder, the Chitauri fighters were an advanced alien race under Thanos, and the Ultron bots were able to dig through concrete, withstand small arms fire, and many could fly and had ranged weaponry as well. And he was fighting a lot of them. But anyway, the point I am making is at least Hawkeye actually has feats. So we have some actual visible onscreen evidence to measure his ability by.

Also, you ask me that Marine question, yet you are basing your entire argument for the SHIELD agents on a single comment from Coulson. I mean are you seriously suggesting that implied ability from a single line of dialogue now trumps having actual onscreen feats? If so, I am going to stop right here.

I believe his main point is that Thor went through Shield agents that were stated to be highly trained faster than BW went through security guards.

I don't claim that the SHIELD agents Thor went through were better fighters than Clint or Natasha. Maybe they were, that wasn't my point. My point is, every SHIELD agent we've seen has been a skilled fighter. If these were some of Coulson's best, then I'm pretty sure they were skilled. Then the ease with which Thor went through them, well, it trumps both Clint's and BW's feats of going through fodder (both of whom normally use weapons when going through fodder by the way way).

And then citing BW beating Clint in CQC as a feat for BW doesn't really do much IMO since the best feats Clint have are just him going through fodder as well.

So this is a battle of who handled fodder better?

I guess Black Widow wins by default since she has 4 movies of fighter fodder while Depowered Thor only has one. Though given how they performed against said fodder I guess Widow has more dynamic feats while Thor's opponent(s) were better equipped. Idk but for now I'd give this to Widow 6/10.

Hammer might not be SHIELD, but they were still considered big enough to take on big government military contracts. So it stands to reason that they aren't just going to hire rent-a-cops for their facility. Happy, who is Tony's main security guy, and has shown that he has at least some level of training (we see him train with Tony in the ring) struggled with one guard in the time it took Widow to take out all the rest. And in actual fact it took Thor just under 2 minutes to clear the SHIELD guys, from the first person he encountered to the final big black guy, while it took Widow just under a minute and a half, even though the Hammer guys seemed to be spread over a larger area.

@ Froth. I am basing my argument of what we know as fact. You just admitted that you do not know what their actual capabilities are. You are speculating what they might be capable of based off of dialogue and what other SHIELD agents are capable of. While acting like actual screen feats don't mean much, even though both Widow and Hawkeye are also considered high level SHIELD agents. You are arguing that Thor beating SHIELD agents is impressive because Coulson said so, but acting like Widow beating a fellow top level SHIELD agent and Avenger, with actual feats, isn't. So guess you are saying that you believe dialogue now trumps feats. In which case, this is pointless to continue, because I strongly disagree with your stance.

1. There was a lot of slowmo when Thor fought the big SHIELD agent
2. Thor had to run around the base
3. BW used some gadgets on Hammer's goons

Not really fair to consider runtime.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. For what it's worth, I'm only giving Thor 7/10 against BW. Not like I think it's an easy match for him.

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion for now and let other people comment.

Yes, and for a big chunk (probably about 20 seconds) of the Widow fight we cut away to a totally different sequence, so we don't even know for sure what the actual timeframe was. The actual screen time is just over a minute, but I took the high end number estimate of the overall screen time, to be fair. And the Hammer guys were spread over a large building Widow had to clear. She literally started at the front door and had to get to one of the most secure areas. And she used some gadgets, but used a lot of pure H2H as well. So both scenarios had different variables and elements, which is one of the reasons I myself never specifically brought it up until someone else did.

But yes, it's best we both actually stop, because we are getting in danger of being sucked into the circular kind of debate I specifically wanted to avoid. And I am also not giving Widow a big majority, but a majority nonetheless. As I said before, I think it would be a hard fight. At least we can both agree on that.

Exactly, a civilian with some training was able to beat one of the security guards.

She beat more faster then he did one. Happy most of trained with Tony. Happy tried to grab Natasha and was taken down.

He is considered Tony's body guard

Happy Hogan- http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Harold_Hogan

Lol Happy is a driver, and has zero feats besides getting his ass kicked by a fearless women until that point.

She also used weapons.

The guy in charge of the security of a multi-billion dollar enterprise, and who has been shown training with a guy who is an active superhero, struggled extremely hard to take one down, despite sucker punching him. Anyway, I am done here. I stand by my opinion with regards to Widow winning a majority. I am actually more interested in the Ajax/Deathstroke discussion now.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Anyway, I am done here. I stand by my opinion with regards to Widow winning a majority. Yeah, theres not much point in arguing with people who refuse to acknowledge that a depowered Thor who is featless outside of a few SHIELD agents has no chance against a girl whos taken out aliens, cyborgs, supervillains, higher up SHIELD agents, and more. Widow doesn't just take the majority win. She takes 10/10.

What cyborgs/supervillains has Widow taken out?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
What cyborgs/supervillains has Widow taken out?

She took out the Hulk. Powering him down to Banner is technically a win.

Hulk's a supervillian ?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Hulk's a supervillian ?

He was a villain for that short while in AOU and in the Hellcarier in Avengers

Okay that's a fair assessment but don't recall any cyborgs.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Okay that's a fair assessment but don't recall any cyborgs.

I was just joking btw

I know but I still want to know bout dem cyborgs

That "active superhero" he trains with, is someone who wears power armor. I doubt Tony would last more than a few seconds against a depowered Thor in hth.

It's golem, he lies about everything, what can you expect though.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Yeah, theres not much point in arguing with people who refuse to acknowledge that a depowered Thor who is featless outside of a few SHIELD agents has no chance against a girl whos taken out aliens, cyborgs, supervillains, higher up SHIELD agents, and more. Widow doesn't just take the majority win. She takes 10/10.

BW never took out supervillains or cyborgs. She took out aliens and robots with the help of weapons. She took out ONE top SHIELD agent whom she struggled with.

Originally posted by Silent Master
That "active superhero" he trains with, is someone who wears power armor. I doubt Tony would last more than a few seconds against a depowered Thor in hth.

On top of that we never even seen Happy fights, get got his ass kicked once by a girl and once by a security gaurd.

Originally posted by Silent Master
That "active superhero" he trains with, is someone who wears power armor. I doubt Tony would last more than a few seconds against a depowered Thor in hth.

Tony wouldn't last long against a serious Widow in H2H either, so that doesn't matter at all.

This thread does give me an idea for a fight that might be an interesting match for depowered Thor though.

It matters when you use training with Tony as a hth feat.

Unless I was trying to claim that Tony or Happy is as good at H2H as either Thor or Widow, no it doesn't. We know they aren't. That was brought up to try and gauge the skill level of the Hammer guys. Tony isn't fighting Thor here, so how well he would personally do against Thor in H2H is irrelevant. All your comment does is derail things, because now I have to waste a post explaining something that should actually be obvious. Anyway, not going to play your games.

Black Widow wins this.

There will be a trade off in hits, no doubt (Thor will mostly score glancing hits). But Widow will essentially choke Thor out between her thighs eventually.

He passes out with a smile on his face.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Unless I was trying to claim that Tony or Happy is as good at H2H as either Thor or Widow, no it doesn't. We know they aren't. That was brought up to try and gauge the skill level of the Hammer guys. Tony isn't fighting Thor here, so how well he would personally do against Thor in H2H is irrelevant. All your comment does is derail things, because now I have to waste a post explaining something that should actually be obvious. Anyway, not going to play your games.

So your point in bringing it up was to show that the Hammer guys are far inferior to the Shield agents that Thor fought? Ok, good to know.