Pre-Flashpoint Weird Vs Kyle Raynor

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Zack M
Old school Kyle, with the superior ring. Which energy manipulator wins?

Delta1938
The Weird. Even if Kyle is above Guy, he's not THAT above Guy for how easily Weird beat Guy. And if this is rookie Kyle, then I'd feel he'd do even worse. Kyle also had mixed success against bricks in those days, and The Weird definitely is Top-Tier there.

Galan007
Not to mention that The Weird bonded with Synnar at the end of Holy War. smile

Zack M
Nice. Didn't Weird own Dr. Fate?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Galan007
Not to mention that The Weird bonded with Synnar at the end of Holy War. smile

I haven't read that series. sad

Originally posted by Zack M
Nice. Didn't Weird own Dr. Fate?

Yep!! Was able to manipulate the energy Doctor Fate was conjuring. Well, he(Weird) said it was energy. He also IIRC one-shot J'onn, and he beat Captain Atom off-panel. It was clear it was a quick KO, but we don't see what happened, if it was physical or energy based or what.

Galan007
Originally posted by Zack M
Nice. Didn't Weird own Dr. Fate? Yep, along with other members of the League. Casually:
http://i.imgur.com/dTt2KGg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J20FpIP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGH9X2C.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b42U2CX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ukeNwls.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3AacLsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MqDRjjE.jpg

cdtm
Originally posted by Zack M
Old school Kyle, with the superior ring. Which energy manipulator wins?

Kyle.

Martian Manhunter actually knocked Weird tfo.

Yes, MANJOBBER actually put someone down. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/devil.gif

Galan007
Originally posted by cdtm
Kyle.

Martian Manhunter actually knocked Weird tfo.

Yes, MANJOBBER actually put someone down. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/devil.gif Kind of silly to lowball The Weird based on a single showing that can be easily explained:
a.) He expended a good deal of energy against the Macrolatt he's just beaten moments beforehand.
b.) J'onn went out of his way to explain that he was only able to do that because The Weird's guard was completely down.
c.) Even if you exclude a & b, that showing is still a massive low-end outlier, given The Weird's other feats.

cdtm
As I recall, weird also wasn't really a top end physical powerhouse, compared to say, Bizarro.

In theory, Weird can absorb Kyles energy.. In theory, Kyle can also control Weirds energies, as he has with other energy beings.

Or, he could use his ring constructs to ambush him. That was actually his go to tactic pre Emerald Rebirth, firing off a beam far off into the distance, and making it loop around at the blind side. (Further, his accuracy was good enough to fire a beam down someone's throat, creating an emp pulse from inside them..)

Surtur
I don't know much about Weird so I can only answer if Kyle wins via getting the answer to a single question: Is Weird more powerful or less powerful then Deathstroke?

Galan007
Energy manipulation is how he would beat Kyle... And he would beat Kyle.

SquallX
Originally posted by Surtur
I don't know much about Weird so I can only answer if Kyle wins via getting the answer to a single question: Is Weird more powerful or less powerful then Deathstroke?

That's ****ing sad coming from you man.

Surtur
Originally posted by SquallX
That's ****ing sad coming from you man.

It was a joke. The Identity Crisis showing was of course total bunk.

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Energy manipulation is how he would beat Kyle... And he would beat Kyle.

It's been tried, though.

By an energy being, no less. Kyle's constructs were being manipulated, so he reached out into her and manipulated her body.

But even if we assumed that's not possible on Weird, he could certainly physically defeat him. Weird was as susceptible to physical damage as anybody, and Kyles defeated much more durable characters (Like Darkseid's illegitamate son, Grayven.)

Surtur
Plus on a serious note..Kyle did f*ck up Superman's face with energy blasts that one time right? It's true Superman wasn't exactly fighting back, but that wouldn't really lower his durability.

Mindset
Kyle stomps.

Good thread, Golgo.

Galan007
Originally posted by cdtm
It's been tried, though.

By an energy being, no less. Kyle's constructs were being manipulated, so he reached out into her and manipulated her body. Are you referring to the stunt he pulled against Tangent Flash? If so, that's when he was Ion. Far cry from your 'average' Kyle.

Originally posted by cdtm
But even if we assumed that's not possible on Weird, he could certainly physically defeat him. Weird was as susceptible to physical damage as anybody, and Kyles defeated much more durable characters (Like Darkseid's illegitamate son, Grayven.) The Weird shrugged off punches from Superman, and delivered punches of equal magnitude in return. He also physically owned J'onn with a single strike. IOW, it's not easy to overpower him. At all.

You're trying to act like that one low-end outlier(which can be explained) is the rule. It isn't. srsly

"Id"
I think Kyle was among those affected by energy disturbance provoked by the Weird.

Mindset
Galan is clearly out of his depth with this thread.

He's usually so informed, it's pretty weird. thumb down

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
He's usually so informed, it's pretty weird. thumb down You sly motherphucker. excellent

beatboks
Weird with consummate ease

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Are you referring to the stunt he pulled against Tangent Flash? If so, that's when he was Ion. Far cry from your 'average' Kyle.

The Weird shrugged off punches from Superman, and delivered punches of equal magnitude in return. He also physically owned J'onn with a single strike. IOW, it's not easy to overpower him. At all.

You're trying to act like that one low-end outlier(which can be explained) is the rule. It isn't. srsly

No he didn't. Superman got him with heat vision, after a chase through the city where Weird phased through surfaces, while Supes flew through them to keep up.

Martian Manhunters the one that landed punches, before the ambush, which didn't KO him but definately had an effect.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Surtur
Plus on a serious note..Kyle did f*ck up Superman's face with energy blasts that one time right? It's true Superman wasn't exactly fighting back, but that wouldn't really lower his durability.
He was amped on Ion energy.

beatboks
Originally posted by cdtm
No he didn't. Superman got him with heat vision, after a chase through the city where Weird phased through surfaces, while Supes flew through them to keep up.

Martian Manhunters the one that landed punches, before the ambush, which didn't KO him but definately had an effect.

Yeah he did

https://grizzlybomb.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/weird-vs-superman.jpg

Notice the utter shock on Superman's face that the Weird is still standing unaffected after his punch???
You'll also notice Supes was pretty pissed after getting socked in the face. I highly doubt a normal strength level would have accomplished that.

I don't however think that Weird was punching on SM level. he was hwoever delivering blows that anyone short of Supes would have ahd issues with (MMH <<<< Supes)

Galan007
Originally posted by cdtm
No he didn't.
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427964_The_Weird_02-23.jpg

http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427965_The_Weird_02-28.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427966_The_Weird_02-29.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427967_The_Weird_02-30.jpg

cdtm
Guess I'm wrong, got me there.

But I definately remember he did NOT shrug off MM's blows. They didn't knock him out, but seemed to get more of a reaction then Supes there.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
Guess I'm wrong, got me there.

But I definately remember he did NOT shrug off MM's blows. They didn't knock him out, but seemed to get more of a reaction then Supes there.
J'onn also suckered him.

Weird KTFO him with just a punch. Superman wasn't even moved from his punch.

abhilegend
J'onn punches him from behind and then gets owned with just one punch.
http://i.imgur.com/J20FpIP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGH9X2C.jpg

LMAO.

Galan007
Well, he KO'd J'onn with a single strike here:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427968_The_Weird_01-31.jpg

And in the instance where J'onn KO'd Weird, he had just expended a great deal of energy against a Macrolatt(who possessed abilities similar to his own) moments beforehand. It was also stated that J'onn could only affect Weird because he used his invisibility and caught Weird completely off guard when he was trying to reason with the League. It was a total sucker shot.

We saw how Weird can handle them when his energies weren't taxed, and he was prepared. They were nothing.

Galan007
The Weird utterly humiliated Captain Comet as well:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427969_RacerX-MIS8-p11.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427970_RacerX-MIS8-p12.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427971_RacerX-MIS8-p13.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427972_RacerX-MIS8-p14.jpg

http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427973_RacerX-MIS8-p16.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427974_RacerX-MIS8-p17.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427975_RacerX-MIS8-p18.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427976_RacerX-MIS8-p19.jpg

Not only did CC liken The Weird's punches to those of Superman, but The Weird also walked through his full-power mind blast and TK in the process. smile

beatboks
Originally posted by Galan007
The Weird utterly humiliated Captain Comet as well:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427969_RacerX-MIS8-p11.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427970_RacerX-MIS8-p12.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427971_RacerX-MIS8-p13.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427972_RacerX-MIS8-p14.jpg

http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427973_RacerX-MIS8-p16.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427974_RacerX-MIS8-p17.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427975_RacerX-MIS8-p18.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25427976_RacerX-MIS8-p19.jpg

Not only did CC liken The Weird's punches to those of Superman, but The Weird also walked through his full-power mind blast and TK in the process. smile

Just to be fair, that was from Mystery in space so "post resurrection " Comet who physically is no where near as powerful as he used to be.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/captain%20comet/Mystery%20in%20Space%202%20-%20Page%205.jpg.html?sort=3&o=117

Comet is still of course aware how powerful Supes is but he couldn't take anywhere near as much.

The fact that Weird however withstood his full mind blast was quite a feat. Comet's mental powers got a massive amp in the resurrection. In fact it took 14 clones of Comet's former body to alter a single memory of the Weird to get him to fight Comet.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/captain%20comet/Mystery%20In%20Space%207%20-%20Page%2019.jpg.html

Mindset
Originally posted by beatboks
Weird with consummate ease If you wanna fight, any time, any place.

Galan007
Yeah, there's a reason I didn't emphasize The Weird physically dominating Comet more than I did. The impressive part is Comet making multiple comments about how damned strong Weird was, along with Weird tanking his "full-power" mind blast.

beatboks
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, there's a reason I didn't emphasize The Weird physically dominating Comet more than I did. The impressive part is Comet making multiple comments about how damned strong Weird was, along with Weird tanking his "full-power" mind blast.

Tanking his mind blast for me was the major point. Post resurrection Comet while not able to physically do crap against the clones of his former body the Church of light used could mentally dominate a few at a time.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/captain%20comet/Psionic%20attack.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/captain%20comet/Mystery%20in%20Space%205%20-%20Page%2015.jpg.html

given that the pre resurrection comet could TK shield himself and others from Ominar Synn , not to mention psionically contain Kyle's energy attacks
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/captain%20comet/Rann-ThanagarWar_02-19.jpgoriginal.jpg.html

Standing up to Comet's new improved and amped full psionic barrage is one hell of a resistance feat.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Galan007
Yep, along with other members of the League. Casually:
http://i.imgur.com/dTt2KGg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J20FpIP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGH9X2C.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b42U2CX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ukeNwls.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3AacLsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MqDRjjE.jpg beautiful scans!

Yup, the Weird is no joke.

Delta1938
Originally posted by cdtm
It's been tried, though.

By an energy being, no less. Kyle's constructs were being manipulated, so he reached out into her and manipulated her body.

Galan already covered about Kyle countering this. Normal Kyle has indeed had his energies manipulated.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Synnar/JLA/th_HARDCORE_STATION6-PG06.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Synnar/JLA/th_HARDCORE_STATION6-PG06.jpg

I would assume if Weird could manipulate Doctor Fate's energies, he can manipulate Kyle's.

Originally posted by cdtm
But even if we assumed that's not possible on Weird, he could certainly physically defeat him. Weird was as susceptible to physical damage as anybody, and Kyles defeated much more durable characters (Like Darkseid's illegitamate son, Grayven.)

Not sure why you're bringing-up Grayven. Kyle did win their first fight, but only via BFR, and it wasn't even completely his own power, he forced Grayen into a Zeta Beam. Kyle got his licks in, but by and large was getting his ass kicked.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Villains/Grayven/GL-75

He did better in their second fight, but I don't think a whole lot better. And his win was weird, apparently Grayven just gave-up and teleported away because he got hit hard once.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Villains/Grayven/GL-97

I had only read that issue for the fight, so I dunno if there's any context missing. The only other fight I'm aware of they had was when Kyle was Ion the second time around. Only skimmed through it though, but don't see it helping Kyle no matter how he did.

I don't know of Grayven facing anybody else than Adam Strange and John Stewart as a Darkstar, and getting arguably one-shot by Superman during OWAW. Why do you say he's more durable?

But even if Grayven is stronger and more durable than The Weird, Kyle did poorly against Grayven who was just a ground bound brick with some eye beams that could break Kyle's constructs. The Weird is much more mobile, can phase and considering how he did against Guy and Doctor Fate, I fully believe he can manipulate Kyle's own energy.

Originally posted by Surtur
Plus on a serious note..Kyle did f*ck up Superman's face with energy blasts that one time right? It's true Superman wasn't exactly fighting back, but that wouldn't really lower his durability.

As Abhi mentioned, Kyle was amped.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Lanterns/Green/Kyle/Ion-Ascension

krisblaze
time to reread the weird comics

Philosophía
Weird was powerful as fock. He wins here.

Delta1938
Leave this topic with your BS DC bias, Phildo!! mad

Galan007
Originally posted by Delta1938
Galan already covered about Kyle countering this. Normal Kyle has indeed had his energies manipulated.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Synnar/JLA/th_HARDCORE_STATION6-PG06.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Synnar/JLA/th_HARDCORE_STATION6-PG06.jpg

I would assume if Weird could manipulate Doctor Fate's energies, he can manipulate Kyle's. Duplicates. sad

Here's the scene:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25429431_06.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25429432_07.jpg

Delta1938
Originally posted by Galan007
Duplicates. sad

Here's the scene:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25429431_06.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/25429432_07.jpg

Oops. embarrasment Thanks, didn't notice.

beatboks
Originally posted by Delta1938
Leave this topic with your BS DC bias, Phildo!! mad

Given that both combatants are DC then such a bias should harm no one here.

Delta1938
Originally posted by beatboks
Given that both combatants are DC then such a bias should harm no one here.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DFg7O-CPX6c/UeN-NqVf2MI/AAAAAAAAAKE/jBc-vzgoNMA/s1600/joke+over+head.gif

Surtur
Originally posted by abhilegend
J'onn punches him from behind and then gets owned with just one punch.
http://i.imgur.com/J20FpIP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGH9X2C.jpg

LMAO.

This was probably revenge for the future trolling J'onn would dish out to Aquaman.

cdtm
Originally posted by beatboks

I don't however think that Weird was punching on SM level. he was hwoever delivering blows that anyone short of Supes would have ahd issues with (MMH <<<< Supes)


My friend, thems fighting words. smile

Martian Manhunter may not be the second coming, and he may have had his bad showings (You want to make a list of low end showings for Superman?), but he's also had his share of great ones..

John Ostranders run had him doing a man vs team stand off every bit as impressive as the one its claimed weird did (I won't even pretend to remember what happened, after the holes already proven to be poked in my memory. Gonna have to re-read that story..)

My point is, a lot of characters have the "beat the league" moments. Hal's had his, J'onn's had his, and Batman does it every other week.. stick out tongue

But at the end of the day, how buff is Weird, really? Can he beat down Superman? Black Adam? Wonder Woman?

Not in a "league tries to contain him" scenario, but all out.

I mean, if we go by Doomsday Wars, Doomsday on average beats Orion, WW, GL, and Flash at the same time, and that's seriously lowballing them as a team, let alone individually..

One Big Mob
Martian Manhunter is strong as ****. His shitty showings don't really reflect a lack of strength so much as it shows that his durability is complete crap. In fact I can't really remember any low showings of his strength besides maybe the Doomsday showing but that could just be his arthritis hands.

It's even worse that he's extremely malleable too, which should only make him harder to hurt. He's pretty much the textbook definition of glass cannon

Juntai
I think its literally the 'jobber' effect. A guy brought in to make guys look good. He has massive amount of power, so naturally it takes a top tier guy to take him down, then Wondy or Supes takes down that guy. No one would really have a problem with that if it wasn't brutal asswhippings every time.

But he seems to be getting a better showing overall in New52.

cdtm
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Martian Manhunter is strong as ****. His shitty showings don't really reflect a lack of strength so much as it shows that his durability is complete crap. In fact I can't really remember any low showings of his strength besides maybe the Doomsday showing but that could just be his arthritis hands.

It's even worse that he's extremely malleable too, which should only make him harder to hurt. He's pretty much the textbook definition of glass cannon

It's funny how Plastic Man is basically immune to physical damage, but MM isn't.

Except under Ostrander. There, a guy said to be stronger then Superman and built like Hulk punches him into the ground, and J'onn simply expands around his arm and engulfs him.

Rao Kal El
Weird wins

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
It's funny how Plastic Man is basically immune to physical damage, but MM isn't.

Except under Ostrander. There, a guy said to be stronger then Superman and built like Hulk punches him into the ground, and J'onn simply expands around his arm and engulfs him.
And under Ostrander himself, Black Adam beat the shit out of him in just four punches.

thumb up

beatboks
Originally posted by cdtm
My friend, thems fighting words. smile

Martian Manhunter may not be the second coming, and he may have had his bad showings (You want to make a list of low end showings for Superman?), but he's also had his share of great ones..

John Ostranders run had him doing a man vs team stand off every bit as impressive as the one its claimed weird did (I won't even pretend to remember what happened, after the holes already proven to be poked in my memory. Gonna have to re-read that story..)

My point is, a lot of characters have the "beat the league" moments. Hal's had his, J'onn's had his, and Batman does it every other week.. stick out tongue

But at the end of the day, how buff is Weird, really? Can he beat down Superman? Black Adam? Wonder Woman?

Not in a "league tries to contain him" scenario, but all out.

I mean, if we go by Doomsday Wars, Doomsday on average beats Orion, WW, GL, and Flash at the same time, and that's seriously lowballing them as a team, let alone individually..

j never base ang COMPARISON on solely highs or solely lows.
The only way it can work is the take everything in perspective.

Simple fact is superman has higher highs and more of them (I've never seen anything from Jonn that matches Supes carrying a mjni sungulaity across the galaxy or escaping a Black hole.)

Superman also has few lows.

Superman also has more showings in the middle ground.

Take everything into perspective as a whole and MMH simply isn't on Kal-el's level. Its tat simple

Delta1938
Originally posted by cdtm
My friend, thems fighting words. smile

Martian Manhunter may not be the second coming, and he may have had his bad showings (You want to make a list of low end showings for Superman?), but he's also had his share of great ones..

John Ostranders run had him doing a man vs team stand off every bit as impressive as the one its claimed weird did (I won't even pretend to remember what happened, after the holes already proven to be poked in my memory. Gonna have to re-read that story..)

My point is, a lot of characters have the "beat the league" moments. Hal's had his, J'onn's had his, and Batman does it every other week.. stick out tongue

But at the end of the day, how buff is Weird, really? Can he beat down Superman? Black Adam? Wonder Woman?

Not in a "league tries to contain him" scenario, but all out.

I mean, if we go by Doomsday Wars, Doomsday on average beats Orion, WW, GL, and Flash at the same time, and that's seriously lowballing them as a team, let alone individually..

All J'onn really did was not get KOed and momentarily restrain people via shape-shifting before flying off intangible. And Malefic was attacking(to cause it all) invisibly. In fact Malefic did most of the work.

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