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'If the governor signs off, school restrooms, locker rooms and shower facilities that could be occupied by multiple students may only be used by students of the same biological sex.' Source: http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/south-dakota-school-restrooms-transgender-bill/

What are your thoughts on this?

Idfk if they should be divided by sex gender or at all.

I think transgender people, particularly mtf transgender people have an even better reason to require a bathroom where they can feel safe than other women.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think transgender people, particularly mtf transgender people have an even better reason to require a bathroom where they can feel safe than other women.

what about hermaphrodites? i don't particularly care about bathrooms but i'm interested in your viewpoint

Originally posted by Raisen
what about hermaphrodites? i don't particularly care about bathrooms but i'm interested in your viewpoint

I don't think hermaphrodites (the preferred term is Intersex, btw) face safety issues in bathrooms as long as they are perceived as the gender designated to the bathroom they are using.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think hermaphrodites (the preferred term is Intersex, btw) face safety issues in bathrooms as long as they are perceived as the gender designated to the bathroom they are using.

thanks for lecturing me on SJW preferred terms. hermaphrodite is the correct medical term

Originally posted by Raisen
thanks for lecturing me on SJW preferred terms. hermaphrodite is the correct medical term

lol, my aside regarding the currently preferred terminology really bothered you, eh? For the record, no, it's not just a SJW preferred term, the medical community, particularly in the US uses this as its preferred term: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

I'm glad to see that your question to me really mattered to you, so much so that you at all addressed it further.

"If the governor signs off, school restrooms, locker rooms and shower facilities that could be occupied by multiple students may only be used by students of the same biological sex.

The bill states that if a student says he or she is transgender, and a parent 'consents to that assertion in writing,' the student should be given a 'reasonable accommodation.'

A 'reasonable accommodation' could include a single-occupancy restroom, a unisex restroom or the controlled use of a restroom or locker room, the bill states."

I would support it if it was limited to locker rooms and shower facilities, and did not include a parental consent requirement.

Since female-to-male transgender students cannot use a urinal, and there are no urinals in female restrooms for male-to-female transgender students to use, all transgender students would have to use a stall, which is already private, so I do not see a problem with restroom use.

And courts have already found that parental permission requirements that compel a student to disclose his or her gender identity or sexual orientation to a parent or guardian, or school officials, violate the Right to Privacy.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
"If the governor signs off, school restrooms, locker rooms and shower facilities that could be occupied by multiple students may only be used by students of the same biological sex.

The bill states that if a student says he or she is transgender, and a parent 'consents to that assertion in writing,' the student should be given a 'reasonable accommodation.'

A 'reasonable accommodation' could include a single-occupancy restroom, a unisex restroom or the controlled use of a restroom or locker room, the bill states."

I would support it if it was limited to locker rooms and shower facilities, and did not include a parental consent requirement.

Since female-to-male transgender students cannot use a urinal, and there are no urinals in female restrooms for male-to-female transgender students to use, all transgender students would have to use a stall, which is already private, so I do not see a problem with restroom use.

And courts have already found that parental permission requirements that compel a student to disclose his or her gender identity or sexual orientation to a parent or guardian, or school officials, violate the Right to Privacy.

I think we agree, though could you clarify one point about restrooms. If there are a female and a male bathroom, do you support that a mtf transgender student can use the female bathroom?

Why the **** is hermaphroidite supposedly offensive?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think we agree, though could you clarify one point about restrooms. If there are a female and a male bathroom, do you support that a mtf transgender student can use the female bathroom?

Yes.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Yes.

Oh good, two thumbs up from me then:

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Why the **** is hermaphroidite supposedly offensive?

Most people who are labeled hermaphrodites are not true hermaphrodites, they are intersex.

People who are intersex have mixed chromosomes and/or gonads, but do not necessarily have mixed sets of sexual organs.

Some may appear fully-one sex, while others may have ambiguous genitals and may appear neither male or female.

"Hermaphrodite" is offensive to intersex people in the same way that "midget" is offensive to people with Dwarfism. It is a label for another condition that is being incorrectly applied to them.

Ah Kk, that actually makes sense.

One of my friends got pissed at me when I used the term, claiming it was offensive because it also referred to plants and animals... Even though Male and Female also refer to plants and animals... 'Twas an extremely shit argument all and all.

I dont see the big deal, build another bathroom..if no one is actually in it, anyone can use it.

There is a very rare condition that used to be called "True Hermaphroditism" where humans sort of (though not really, since there actually aren't any cases of two functioning sets of gonads): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism

But that too is called "True Gonadal Intersex" in the medical community now.

I refer you again to the US's National Institute of Health's, a government organisation (and not a SJW group or whatever you are presuming), entry on Intersex in its Library of Medicine:

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Originally posted by Raisen
thanks for lecturing me on SJW preferred terms. hermaphrodite is the correct medical term

Hermaphrodite would be the correct biological term, but not necessarily the preferred or correct medical term. The correct medical term would be specific to the "hermaphroditic" nature of the medical conditions and these are somewhat adequately defined on the Prader Scale. Beyond this, I'm largely ignorant on how to get more specific than this so I'll stop here. If you're interested, look up some of the words in my post and see what I mean.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hermaphrodite would be the correct biological term, but not necessarily the preferred or correct medical term. The correct medical term would be specific to the "hermaphroditic" nature of the medical conditions and these are somewhat adequately defined on the Prader Scale. Beyond this, I'm largely ignorant on how to get more specific than this so I'll stop here. If you're interested, look up some of the words in my post and see what I mean.

Do we really need to be so specific? If it's offensive then ok. There are other issues to be concerned about

Originally posted by Raisen
Do we really need to be so specific? If it's offensive then ok. There are other issues to be concerned about

No, we don't need to be specific at all. And if someone gets offended by it, that's their problem, not yours. I personally think it is stupid to get offended by it.

However, generally, we can get specific just to be correct.

Just make everything unisex already. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think transgender people, particularly mtf transgender people have an even better reason to require a bathroom where they can feel safe than other women.

So just out of curiosity, if you have a 14 yr. old daughter would you be okay with 14 yr. old boys who identify as female showering with her? Being able to see her nude in the shower, and her able to see them nude, this would be okay with you?

Also what if legit females would feel unsafe and uncomfortable with a male being able to use their same locker rooms? Whose feelings of being unsafe and uncomfortable matter more?

Oh, and one more thing, what would you require for someone to be able to use a different bathroom? Merely identifying as that sex? Or only if they have had a full on surgical procedure changing their sex?

I completely agree with this bill. Girls shouldn't have to put up with a guy in the bathroom, just because he believes he's a woman. Let transgender use unisex or faculty bathrooms.

I do applaud South Dakota. It's nice to see some states take a stand against this kind of stuff. I can't help but respect them because I'm sure they know they will get a lot of flak over this. On the other hand I also find this to be a major bummer since I feel we've reached the ultimate levels of silliness given this needed to be spelled out in a bill.

I read a story about some self-entitled transgender kid who felt "excluded" because his school let him use the faculty bathrooms, but not the girls bathroom. He made a big it fuss about it, and it made the news.

See, stuff that like that pisses me off. The school tried to accommodate him, and all the stupid little shit could do was whine?

Originally posted by Lucius
I read a story about some self-entitled transgender kid who felt "excluded" because his school let him use the faculty bathrooms, but not the girls bathroom. He made a big it fuss about it, and it made the news.

See, stuff that like that pisses me off. The school tried to accommodate him, and all the stupid little shit could do was whine?

Yep. TThat's democratic voting base

So this issue is a little up in the air to me.

I can understand how some people would feel uncomfortable, especially women, with someone who clearly looks like the opposite sex in their bathrooms.

At the same point there are many transgendered people who look, or obviously are trying to look like the gender they identify as. That has to be equally uncomfortable for them to be told they need to change in a certain bathroom where they obviously also will get gawked at and probably ostracized for being different. I mean has anyone seen the photo of the FTM guy who has to go to the ladies room even though they absolutely look like a man. I bet those women probably were still looking at that guy funny and like a perv.

One thing I do find weird in this conversation is the talk of rape increasing. Or the idea of grown man changing with a 10 year old girl. I think this talk gets taken to the extreme here. I mean grown adult men already get changed with underage boys and there is the potential for rape there as well. I don't see anyone clamoring for boy's and men's separate bathrooms like they are for this. So it just seems weird to me that this is such a big selling point in this conversation.

I mean honestly most people in this situation are just going to use the bathroom the way it is intended.

Also to be fair I think we as a species should probably not make bathroom separation such a big deal and people should just be understanding and mature about this situation. Or just make it so every restroom and lovker area is single person only

Some people look like the gender they identify as and some do not. So, what then? We base this not only on what you identify as, but how well you can pull off appearing as that gender? I mean damn since some men just will plain never really look female. That's not fair to the ugly men who never in a million years could pull off a convincing female.

I also really can't agree with the logic of "well people don't want separate things for boys and men". Thing is, to me? A little boy and a grown man should NOT be able to be getting naked in the same damn room. When I was 7 I walked in on a grown man naked, washing himself in the locker room. He was hairy and nasty and was in the process of washing his god damn balls when I walked in and it DISTURBED the f*ck out of me. So I honestly would have zero problems with men not being able to shower with little kids.

So I find that is a way of ducking the issue, I just posted a topic about a dude creeping around watching young girls get changed. If someone did that to your daughter and then someone else said "well, you don't see people upset that men can shower with boys" how would that make you feel? I'd be shocked if it didn't make you want to respond with a swift kick in the nuts.

Also holy shit when it comes to kids a boy dressing as a female and using the female bathroom is going to get TORN TO SHREDS by the other kids. Do you honestly think that wouldn't happen? I shudder to even think about it, I know how cruel kids can be to other kids that seem to have nothing out of the ordinary about them, transgender kids will be cannon fodder.

Originally posted by Surtur
Some people look like the gender they identify as and some do not. So, what then? We base this not only on what you identify as, but how well you can pull off appearing as that gender? I mean damn since some men just will plain never really look female. That's not fair to the ugly men who never in a million years could pull off a convincing female.

I also really can't agree with the logic of "well people don't want separate things for boys and men". Thing is, to me? A little boy and a grown man should NOT be able to be getting naked in the same damn room. When I was 7 I walked in on a grown man naked, washing himself in the locker room. He was hairy and nasty and was in the process of washing his god damn balls when I walked in and it DISTURBED the f*ck out of me. So I honestly would have zero problems with men not being able to shower with little kids.

So I find that is a way of ducking the issue, I just posted a topic about a dude creeping around watching young girls get changed. If someone did that to your daughter and then someone else said "well, you don't see people upset that men can shower with boys" how would that make you feel? I'd be shocked if it didn't make you want to respond with a swift kick in the nuts.

Also holy shit when it comes to kids a boy dressing as a female and using the female bathroom is going to get TORN TO SHREDS by the other kids. Do you honestly think that wouldn't happen? I shudder to even think about it, I know how cruel kids can be to other kids that seem to have nothing out of the ordinary about them, transgender kids will be cannon fodder. I'm not trying to come up with a solution I'm simply trying to say I can see both sides.

And you maybe okay with separate bathrooms for boys and men but have you ever heard or seen any big push for it. Yet for some reason is seems like a much bigger issue here when it comes to this topic.

It's not ducking the issue I think it pointing out an observation.

And that boy dressing as a girl could just as easily get the same treatment in the boys bathroom. Possibly worse considering our culture of men being physical bullies.

Like I said I think people just need to be way more mature about the topic of people using the restroom and being more supportive of other people.

Originally posted by Surtur
So just out of curiosity, if you have a 14 yr. old daughter would you be okay with 14 yr. old boys who identify as female showering with her? Being able to see her nude in the shower, and her able to see them nude, this would be okay with you?

Also what if legit females would feel unsafe and uncomfortable with a male being able to use their same locker rooms? Whose feelings of being unsafe and uncomfortable matter more?

Oh, and one more thing, what would you require for someone to be able to use a different bathroom? Merely identifying as that sex? Or only if they have had a full on surgical procedure changing their sex?

Honestly, I probably wouldn't be allright about it. Because, lets face it, parents aren t exactly thinking rationally when it comes to their kids.

But, the same question could be asked if your son turned out to be transgender, and was forced to share a bathroom with boys.

There need to be unisex bathrooms in addition to the standard male and female ones. Best solution I can think of.

So basically it's pandering to the few to the discomfort of the masses; however, there is an intricate formula. You appeal to enough small groups and sway others with things like freebies etc and you have a close majority. It's all about keeping your fingers on the pulse of the nation. Overall you won't represent the vast majority for most opinions but you garner their support with propaganda, manipulation, and appeal to emotion.
This is why the democratic candidates change stance so much. Look at hillary on her stance on the Iraq war, same sex marriage etc. It's all a fraud. That's also how you get establishment republicans. It's all about winning and they lie to get there.

Originally posted by Newjak
At the same point there are many transgendered people who look, or obviously are trying to look like the gender they identify as. That has to be equally uncomfortable for them to be told they need to change in a certain bathroom where they obviously also will get gawked at and probably ostracized for being different. I mean has anyone seen the photo of the FTM guy who has to go to the ladies room even though they absolutely look like a man. I bet those women probably were still looking at that guy funny and like a perv.

I mean honestly most people in this situation are just going to use the bathroom the way it is intended.

This is Michael Hughes.

http://upw-prod-images.global.ssl.fastly.net/nugget/551995ee663231001c290000/attachments/michael-cf791fc5b240877af0847a83a9b68a14.jpg

Why is he in a women's restroom?

http://upw-prod-images.global.ssl.fastly.net/nugget/5519b56f373836000c7c0000/attachments/michaelopen-6ce7f93f442d94a2f7e0f827caf4ee96.jpg

Because Michael is transgender.

He has been snapping selfies in women's restrooms to show people just how out of place he looks.

Michael is protesting a series of bills that would ban him from using men's restrooms and leave him no choice but to use the women's room.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAI3ZOKUIAALL9w.jpg

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This is Michael Hughes.

http://upw-prod-images.global.ssl.fastly.net/nugget/551995ee663231001c290000/attachments/michael-cf791fc5b240877af0847a83a9b68a14.jpg

Why is he in a women's restroom?

http://upw-prod-images.global.ssl.fastly.net/nugget/5519b56f373836000c7c0000/attachments/michaelopen-6ce7f93f442d94a2f7e0f827caf4ee96.jpg

Because Michael is transgender.

He has been snapping selfies in women's restrooms to show people just how out of place he looks.

Michael is protesting a series of bills that would ban him from using men's restrooms and leave him no choice but to use the women's room.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAI3ZOKUIAALL9w.jpg

Just because I was born female?
Umm. So everything needs to be shaken up because you want to change your gender?
And don't even try to use false equivalency to compare this to.

Originally posted by Raisen
Just because I was born female?
Umm. So everything needs to be shaken up because you want to change your gender?
And don't even try to use false equivalency to compare this to.

Does this person looks like he belongs in a women's restroom?

Is this bill not creating the very situation it seeks to prevent by forcing someone who appears to be a man to use the women's restroom?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Does this person looks like he belongs in a women's restroom?

Is this bill not creating the very situation it seeks to prevent by forcing someone who appears to be a man to use the women's restroom?

it was his choice to create what he looked like. why do people have to change because he made a choice to change himself

This is identity politics.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is identity politics.

it's crazy. you pay money to change what you are biologically. plastic surgery is another amazing thing right? i can make myself look like a phucking dolphin if i wanted. does that mean my tax money needs to support your feelings? the majority needs to adhere to what 1% wants?

insane

Originally posted by Raisen
the majority needs to adhere to what 1% wants?

insane

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Apparently not when it comes to monetary/fiscal policies though.

Originally posted by jaden101
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Apparently not when it comes to monetary/fiscal policies though.


i absolutely agree.

Originally posted by Surtur
So just out of curiosity, if you have a 14 yr. old daughter would you be okay with 14 yr. old boys who identify as female showering with her? Being able to see her nude in the shower, and her able to see them nude, this would be okay with you?

Also what if legit females would feel unsafe and uncomfortable with a male being able to use their same locker rooms? Whose feelings of being unsafe and uncomfortable matter more?

Oh, and one more thing, what would you require for someone to be able to use a different bathroom? Merely identifying as that sex? Or only if they have had a full on surgical procedure changing their sex?

Since you like succinct answers.

Yes. Yes.

Mtf Transgender people are legit females. Answer: mtf transgender women Because: Mtf transgender people suffer insanely disproportionate violence from men, than women suffer from mtf transgender people.

Yes, identifying as the gender is enough.

Originally posted by Raisen
it was his choice to create what he looked like. why do people have to change because he made a choice to change himself

The only people who are being asked to change are the women who now have to share a restroom with him.

He could use a men's restroom unnoticed, but because of this bill, he is forced to use the women's restroom where he most definitely will not go unnoticed.

This bill aims to prevent men from using women's restrooms so that women do not feel uncomfortable, and it is ironically putting someone who for all intents and purposes appears to be a man in the women's restroom, making them uncomfortable.

But hey, he has the right genitals, even though no one sees those, so he belongs there, despite all of his gender markers that every one sees.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Since you like succinct answers.

Yes. Yes.

Mtf Transgender people are legit females. Answer: mtf transgender women Because: Mtf transgender people suffer insanely disproportionate violence from men, than women suffer from mtf transgender people.

Yes, identifying as the gender is enough.

This is all I needed to see.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This bill aims to prevent men from using women's restrooms so that women do not feel uncomfortable, and it is ironically putting someone who for all intents and purposes appears to be a man in the women's restroom, making them uncomfortable.

So again just because I'm curious: who do you feel has the more important uncomfortable-ness? Since if a trans and a legit female both feel uncomfy...well shit we have to bite the bullet and have one of these groups uncomfy. Why is it the females who are born females and aren't making a conscious choice to try to pretend they are a different gender..be the ones having the deal with being uncomfortable?

Out of some more curiosity, how many people do you feel in South Dakota are trans gender versus how many females in that state are legit females? Surely a vast population of transgenders would be needed to justify putting their feelings above the normal women, right?

Originally posted by Raisen
it was his choice to create what he looked like. why do people have to change because he made a choice to change himself The point is if it weren't for this law that person would be able to go into the men's restroom and people probably would never know.

There most likely are mtf transgendered that use women's restrooms and locker rooms everyday without issue because they look enough like their identified gender people don't care.

So why is it such a big deal now all of a sudden?

Originally posted by Surtur
So again just because I'm curious: who do you feel has the more important uncomfortable-ness? Since if a trans and a legit female both feel uncomfy...well shit we have to bite the bullet and have one of these groups uncomfy. Why is it the females who are born females and aren't making a conscious choice to try to pretend they are a different gender..be the ones having the deal with being uncomfortable?

Out of some more curiosity, how many people do you feel in South Dakota are trans gender versus how many females in that state are legit females? Surely a vast population of transgenders would be needed to justify putting their feelings above the normal women, right? This is an argument that goes no where because without context it doesn't matter.

The argument of course being that if the majority is uncomfortable with something a minority is trying to change to make things less uncomfortable for that minority that the majority should win.

I mean at one point the majority people in certain areas were uncomfortable with using the same restrooms as African Americans because of their skin color. But we understand that didn't matter.

This is a complex issue as I've outlined before. Who do you make uncomfortable? Are you actually infringing on people's rights to use the restroom for the gender they identify with. Is this discrimination against a group of people. I'm sure the more conservative people will immediately say no it does not discriminate against them.

Like I said personally I think this is a stupid argument. If another person getting changed in a locker room makes you uncomfortable then perhaps public restrooms and locker rooms shouldn't be for you. I mean I would have no problem with a ftm person changing in my locker room. Or a ftm if they wanted to.

About the only segregation I really condone is adult bathrooms vs bathrooms for minors.

Originally posted by Surtur
So again just because I'm curious: who do you feel has the more important uncomfortable-ness? Since if a trans and a legit female both feel uncomfy...well shit we have to bite the bullet and have one of these groups uncomfy. Why is it the females who are born females and aren't making a conscious choice to try to pretend they are a different gender..be the ones having the deal with being uncomfortable?

Out of some more curiosity, how many people do you feel in South Dakota are trans gender versus how many females in that state are legit females? Surely a vast population of transgenders would be needed to justify putting their feelings above the normal women, right?
Spot on

Originally posted by Newjak
Like I said personally I think this is a stupid argument. If another person getting changed in a locker room makes you uncomfortable then perhaps public restrooms and locker rooms shouldn't be for you.
Hypothetical situation:

Teenage girls change in the locker room as a middle aged man comes in and starts to change too. Are they justified to feel uncomfortable?

Simple yes/no answer will suffice.

Originally posted by Surtur
So again just because I'm curious: who do you feel has the more important uncomfortable-ness? Since if a trans and a legit female both feel uncomfy...well shit we have to bite the bullet and have one of these groups uncomfy. Why is it the females who are born females and aren't making a conscious choice to try to pretend they are a different gender..be the ones having the deal with being uncomfortable?

Out of some more curiosity, how many people do you feel in South Dakota are trans gender versus how many females in that state are legit females? Surely a vast population of transgenders would be needed to justify putting their feelings above the normal women, right?

I am not addressing whose comfortability is more important.

Only that if the goal of this bill is to ensure the comfortability of people in gender segregated restrooms, it does not actually achieve that goal.

The reason being that many transgender people are indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts.

A female-to-male transgender person appears to be a cisgender male.

If he is required to use the restroom that corresponds to his birth sex instead of his gender markers, then he will have to use a women's restroom.

This puts someone who appears to be a cisgender man in a restroom with women.

They will not know that he was born female, and will assume that he is a cisgender man in the women's restroom, making them uncomfortable.

If he was free to continue to use the men's restroom, there would be no problems.

He appears to be a cisgender man, so he would go completely unnoticed in a men's restroom.

Does this person look like he belongs in a women's bathroom? Yes or no? It is as simple as that.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/7a/43/02/7a430271d1cca7db141004bd88c7c165.jpg

Originally posted by Newjak
Like I said personally I think this is a stupid argument. If another person getting changed in a locker room makes you uncomfortable then perhaps public restrooms and locker rooms shouldn't be for you.

So now wait, why is it you say this..but it can't be said to trans genders? If getting gawked at in a public locker room makes you uncomfortable, then why aren't you telling those people not to use it?

This guy is a total douche bag, he's a guy I don't care what he says he is.

He is taking pics in a womans restroom. The women should just beat his ass.

**** him

Originally posted by Stigma
Hypothetical situation:

Teenage girls change in the locker room as a middle aged man comes in and starts to change too. Are they justified to feel uncomfortable?

Simple yes/no asnwer will suffice. Loaded questions do not deserve yes no questions.

Instead I will simply ask if the genders were reversed or it was a middle aged man and a teenage boy would you feel the same way on the subject?

Also you conveniently ignore the part in my post where I said I would most likely support adult bathrooms and ones for minors.

Originally posted by Surtur
So now wait, why is it you say this..but it can't be said to trans genders? If getting gawked at in a public locker room makes you uncomfortable, then why aren't you telling those people not to use it? Did I say it only pertains to non transgendered people. Like I said if people were just mature about the situation this shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Which is easier said then done. The main issue for me in this topic stems from does this discriminate against a group of people. Which there is a decent case for that imo.

Especially considering how closely some of the transgendered people look to the gender they identify as. I mean if the goal is to make things less awkward for people this law doesn't really seem change that considering it can still make things awkward for people on both sides. Just look at the picture above of the one ftm person. Tell me the women in that restroom don't look awkward at all.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not addressing whose comfortability is more important.

Only that if the goal of this bill is to ensure the comfortability of people in gender segregated restrooms, it does not actually achieve that goal.

The reason being that many transgender people are indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts.

A female-to-male transgender person appears to be a cisgender male.

If he is required to use the restroom that corresponds to his birth sex instead of his gender markers, then he will have to use a women's restroom.

This puts someone who appears to be a cisgender man in a restroom with women.

They will not know that he was born female, and will assume that he is a cisgender man in the women's restroom, making them uncomfortable.

If he was free to continue to use the men's restroom, there would be no problems.

He appears to be a cisgender man, so he would go completely unnoticed in a men's restroom.

Does this person look like he belongs in a women's bathroom? Yes or no? It is as simple as that.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/7a/43/02/7a430271d1cca7db141004bd88c7c165.jpg

He is free to use the mens restroom, he is a man, he looks like a man, are there police at mens bathrooms standing guard with a picture of them on their phone identifying him as a transgender and telling him he can't go in?

Thank about what you are saying before you actually try and lie through the truth.

Originally posted by Newjak
Did I say it only pertains to non transgendered people. Like I said if people were just mature about the situation this shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Which is easier said then done. The main issue for me in this topic stems from does this discriminate against a group of people. Which there is a decent case for that imo.

Especially considering how closely some of the transgendered people look to the gender they identify as. I mean if the goal is to make things less awkward for people this law doesn't really seem change that considering it can still make things awkward for people on both sides. Just look at the picture above of the one ftm person. Tell me the women in that restroom don't look awkward at all.

I wouldn't really call a woman immature if she isn't comfortable with some dude dressed like a chick gawking at her in the bathroom.

As for the pic you brought up... Someone said that is a womans bathroom, and that female in the background sure as shit looks uncomfortable with that creepy looking dude there. Or is the lady supposed to be a dude? Since yeah, some of these guys do look female, but some don't. Bruce Jenner to me looks like a drag queen, not a female.

Originally posted by Newjak
Loaded questions do not deserve yes no questions..

Instead I will simply ask if the genders were reversed or it was a middle aged man and a teenage boy would you feel the same way on the subject?

Seriously? Try your own medicine then:

Originally posted by Newjak
Loaded questions do not deserve yes no questions..



Originally posted by Newjak
Also you conveniently ignore the part in my post where I said I would most likely support adult bathrooms and ones for minors.

Good. Change teenage girls to middle aged women. Same situation.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
He is free to use the mens restroom, he is a man, he looks like a man, are there police at mens bathrooms standing guard with a picture of them on their phone identifying him as a transgender and telling him he can't go in?

Thank about what you are saying before you actually try and lie through the truth.

The man in this picture is a female-to-male transgender person.

This bill would require him to use the women's restroom because he was born female.

That is the problem we are discussing here.

It is not that he could not ignore the law and continue to use the men's restroom.

It is that it would be illegal for him to do so.

So he now must choose between following the law, or putting himself and the women in the restroom in an uncomfortable situation.

Its a pretty easy decision. And this guy is making a mountain out of a mole hill and doing it in a creepy way. I doubt he is really in transition, tbh. Look at him, he's most likely a liar and a fraud.

DP

Originally posted by Surtur
I wouldn't really call a woman immature if she isn't comfortable with some dude dressed like a chick gawking at her in the bathroom.

As for the pic you brought up... Someone said that is a womans bathroom, and that female in the background sure as shit looks uncomfortable with that creepy looking dude there. Or is the lady supposed to be a dude? You assume that will be the norm. Let's be honest if most guys will dress up like a girl to go gawk in the ladies restroom then we've done a terrible job raising our men.

And point I'm making is people should be more mature about restroom and lockers in general. They really shouldn't be this silly place. They should be for getting dressed, showered, and leaving and that is all people should really care about them.

Also gawking can happen in any shower. Men can gawk at other men and women can gawk at other women.

As for the pic. The point is that is a biological female that clearly looks like a man but due to the law they need to go into that restroom. Hence the law doesn't really get rid of the awkwardness it just creates new ones.

Originally posted by Stigma
Seriously? Try your own medicine then:






Good. Change teenage girls to middle aged women. Same situation. Like I said loaded question. Answer mine first as I technically already answered yours.

I don't think most men would try to pull shenanigans like that, but I think there are a lot of creeps out there who would try to pull some shit.

Also what about high schools? Teenage boys tend to be d-bags. Would you put it past some horny teen to go "oh tee hee I identify as a female" so he can go see him some titties?

I would also ask you how you feel a legit trans gender teen would be treated by his peers, especially if he is seen dressing as a girl and going into the girls bathroom?

moved

Originally posted by Surtur
I don't think most men would try to pull shenanigans like that, but I think there are a lot of creeps out there who would try to pull some shit.

Also what about high schools? Teenage boys tend to be d-bags. Would you put it past some horny teen to go "oh tee hee I identify as a female" so he can go see him some titties?

I would also ask you how you feel a legit trans gender teen would be treated by his peers, especially if he is seen dressing as a girl and going into the girls bathroom? You see we're back to the few creeps who might try to do this. Why is it so important now? Couldn't these same types of creeps already be lurking in restrooms gawking at little kids and other people? I don't understand why it such a big deal now.

The rest should be if we raised people to treat other people with respect it shouldn't be a problem if the transgender mtf kid went into the girl's restrooms.

Originally posted by Surtur
Also what about high schools? Teenage boys tend to be d-bags. Would you put it past some horny teen to go "oh tee hee I identify as a female" so he can go see him some titties?

Because identifying as transgender in high school is stigma-free and loads of fun. I highly doubt a teenage boy would put up with the bullying and ridicule he would receive from his peers for identifying as transgender just to see something he can easily see all over the internet.




Originally posted by Surtur
I would also ask you how you feel a legit trans gender teen would be treated by his peers, especially if he is seen dressing as a girl and going into the girls bathroom?

How would that teen be treated if he dressed as a girl and then went into the boys bathroom?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I think this guy is just a liar and a fraud. There is no proof he is in transition, he does not look like he is in transition, he looks like a typical thug. You do realize that there are transitioning people that fully look like their identified gender right? Because of hormones and surgeries they are pretty spot on. So it doesn't matter whether you think they are lying or not the truth is this is a real scenario that can happen.

I think this guy is just a liar and a fraud. There is no proof he is in transition, he does not look like he is in transition, he looks like a typical thug.

Originally posted by Newjak
You do realize that there are transitioning people that fully look like their identified gender right? Because of hormones and surgeries they are pretty spot on. So it doesn't matter whether you think they are lying or not the truth is this is a real scenario that can happen.

Don't speak to me, we know how you operate with "warnings" and you breaking the rules and going and crying to the mods.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Don't speak to me, we know how you operate with "warnings" and you breaking the rules and going and crying to the mods. This is how you are going to reply to my on topic comment?

Don't speak to me, I have nothing to say to you, ever again.

Seriously does South Dakota have a high transgender population to necessitate a new bill to be passed?

I worked amongst the gay & transgender community for 20 years & I honestly don't recall ever hearing or reading the gay community newspapers where dressing rooms or bathrooms were ever an issue.

In the short-term, unisex restrooms should probably be more widespread to deal with this issue.

In the long/ideal term, gender-specific restrooms should be done away with altogether. I envision public restrooms to do away with urinals and just be made up of stalls where the walls of each stall go all the way up to the ceiling (to prevent peeking, etc), and for there to be cameras that are angled to show the entire restroom but not the interiors of the stalls themselves soas to safeguard against attempted rapes and other forms of sexual harassment.

People make a big deal about men abusing unisex restrooms to perv on women, but frankly there are a lot of primitive societies that have existed and still do exist in South America/Africa where men and women both walk around their villages/towns buck ass naked all day every day, with few problems.

There's very little evidence that I'm aware of that states that exposure to the opposite sex when they're naked or in an "inappropriate" state increases the probability of sexual harassment. Rather, the rate of sexual harassment differs based on social constructs.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
In the short-term, unisex restrooms should probably be more widespread to deal with this issue.

In the long/ideal term, gender-specific restrooms should be done away with altogether. I envision public restrooms to do away with urinals and just be made up of stalls where the walls of each stall go all the way up to the ceiling (to prevent peeking, etc), and for there to be cameras that are angled to show the entire restroom but not the interiors of the stalls themselves soas to safeguard against attempted rapes and other forms of sexual harassment.

Cameras should always be angled at the occupants' genitalia.

Yes, but tacitly.

The official pitch is what I said.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
In the short-term, unisex restrooms should probably be more widespread to deal with this issue.

In the long/ideal term, gender-specific restrooms should be done away with altogether. I envision public restrooms to do away with urinals and just be made up of stalls where the walls of each stall go all the way up to the ceiling (to prevent peeking, etc), and for there to be cameras that are angled to show the entire restroom but not the interiors of the stalls themselves soas to safeguard against attempted rapes and other forms of sexual harassment.

People make a big deal about men abusing unisex restrooms to perv on women, but frankly there are a lot of primitive societies that have existed and still do exist in South America/Africa where men and women both walk around their villages/towns buck ass naked all day every day, with few problems.

There's very little evidence that I'm aware of that states that exposure to the opposite sex when they're naked or in an "inappropriate" state increases the probability of sexual harassment. Rather, the rate of sexual harassment differs based on social constructs. That raises an interesting question. Do we need to re-evaluate our ideas on separation of the genders?

To put it bluntly, I think a lot of people, both male & female would find it uncomfortable taking a dump (with all its smells & sounds) in the same vicinity as the opposite sex.

I also don't think a woman would feel comfortable disposing of sanitary pad in plain sight of a man watching.

I can only assume most couples in long term relationships still value their privacy when it comes to toiletry functions. I've never had my missus want to share the same bathroom whilst I was taking a crap nor did it ever occur to me to barge in whilst she was doing her business.

I don't know many people who would be comfortable using a unisex restroom.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
To put it bluntly, I think a lot of people, both male & female would find it uncomfortable taking a dump (with all its smells & sounds) in the same vicinity as the opposite sex.

I also don't think a woman would feel comfortable disposing of sanitary pad in plain sight of a man watching.

I can only assume most couples in long term relationships still value their privacy when it comes to toiletry functions. I've never had my missus want to share the same bathroom whilst I was taking a crap nor did it ever occur to me to barge in whilst she was doing her business.

I don't know many people who would be comfortable using a unisex restroom.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
To put it bluntly, I think a lot of people, both male & female would find it uncomfortable taking a dump (with all its smells & sounds) in the same vicinity as the opposite sex.

I also don't think a woman would feel comfortable disposing of sanitary pad in plain sight of a man watching.

I can only assume most couples in long term relationships still value their privacy when it comes to toiletry functions. I've never had my missus want to share the same bathroom whilst I was taking a crap nor did it ever occur to me to barge in whilst she was doing her business.

I don't know many people who would be comfortable using a unisex restroom. Yeah but how much of that is culturally drilled into us. Like if we didn't treat like such a big deal would it be such a big deal as the generations went on is what I'm asking?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
In the long/ideal term, gender-specific restrooms should be done away with altogether.

Some public spaces are moving toward this already, removing gendered restroom signage and replacing it with All Gender Restroom signage.

It is also more convenient for parents and families. Men's restrooms often do not have baby changing stations for example. And many parents worry about bringing their opposite-sex child into the "wrong" restroom. This eliminates all of that.

Slightly off topic, but how do prisons handle transgender people? Is a ftm sent to s male prison and vice versa? Prisons have open showers, no getting around that issue.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Slightly off topic, but how do prisons handle transgender people? Is a ftm sent to s male prison and vice versa? Prisons have open showers, no getting around that issue.

If things were truly equal then a female who identifies as a man would be sent to a male prison. A dude who identifies as a woman would be sent to a female prison. I'm not sure if that would happen and obviously you can foresee some potential problems if they did that, but I know women out there who preach about how they want equality so..I would be all for it.

Here is an interesting question though: what about school teachers? It may seem weird, but what if you have someone who is a man and he teaches young kids and one day he decides he is a female and wants to dress up like a female and teach the kids? Do you think parents would be okay with that? Some wouldn't mind, but some would.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Some public spaces are moving toward this already, removing gendered restroom signage and replacing it with All Gender Restroom signage.

It is also more convenient for parents and families. Men's restrooms often do not have baby changing stations for example. And many parents worry about bringing their opposite-sex child into the "wrong" restroom. This eliminates all of that.

Well I suppose this is a step towards true equality. Especially since I've noticed that the female specific bathrooms overall tend to be nicer then the male restrooms. I saw one female restroom with a small couch in it, the male restroom in the same place had no such thing. I couldn't figure out why females deserved a couch in the bathroom, but men did not.

Originally posted by Surtur
If things were truly equal then a female who identifies as a man would be sent to a male prison. A dude who identifies as a woman would be sent to a female prison. I'm not sure if that would happen and obviously you can foresee some potential problems if they did that, but I know women out there who preach about how they want equality so..I would be all for it.

Here is an interesting question though: what about school teachers? It may seem weird, but what if you have someone who is a man and he teaches young kids and one day he decides he is a female and wants to dress up like a female and teach the kids? Do you think parents would be okay with that? Some wouldn't mind, but some would. In this country obviously some parents would not be okay and they would probably demand the teacher be let go.

My guess on their main reason would be that they do not agree with that lifestyle and they don't want an authority figure over their children promoting it. Or they don't want their kids exposed to it.

Now if the question was should they care they shouldn't really.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Slightly off topic, but how do prisons handle transgender people? Is a ftm sent to s male prison and vice versa? Prisons have open showers, no getting around that issue.

They are sent to a prison that corresponds with their birth sex but are segregated from other prisoners.




Originally posted by Surtur
Here is an interesting question though: what about school teachers? It may seem weird, but what if you have someone who is a man and he teaches young kids and one day he decides he is a female and wants to dress up like a female and teach the kids? Do you think parents would be okay with that? Some wouldn't mind, but some would.

Most transgender teachers do not transition during the school year. They wait until the summer and return with a different name in the fall.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah but how much of that is culturally drilled into us. Like if we didn't treat like such a big deal would it be such a big deal as the generations went on is what I'm asking?

So essentially we have to change our culture to suit a person who wasn't happy with their genitals.

Great

Originally posted by Raisen
So essentially we have to change our culture to suit a person who wasn't happy with their genitals.

Great

Seems that way.

If you're the right marginalized group, anyways. Why is it that Native Americans or many asians could get crapped on, and nobody cares, but the lgbt agenda has become almost sacred? It seems like homophobia is treated even worse then racism these days..

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
They are sent to a prison that corresponds with their birth sex but are segregated from other prisoners. Highly transphobic and problematic if that's the case. This should be changed to be more accommodating.

Originally posted by cdtm
Seems that way.

If you're the right marginalized group, anyways. Why is it that Native Americans or many asians could get crapped on, and nobody cares, but the lgbt agenda has become almost sacred? It seems like homophobia is treated even worse then racism these days..

They rarely complain and many Asians are successful despite having worse setbacks than the preferred minorities

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Highly transphobic and problematic if that's the case. This should be changed to be more accommodating.

Yes. Me must spend as much money as possible to accommodate Transgender felons

Originally posted by Raisen
They rarely complain and many Asians are successful despite having worse setbacks than the preferred minorities

Many homosexuals are successful too, though.

Of course, many more aren't, but as a percentage they're well represented economically.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
They are sent to a prison that corresponds with their birth sex but are segregated from other prisoners.

Strange to me. How come with that the birth sex suddenly is important?



But I think you can agree not all men can actually pull off being a woman, right? Some men, no matter what, will always just look like a dude in drag, as opposed to a female. So it's still possible younger kids would notice something potentially off, and obviously something like this probably wouldn't stay a secret from parents.

Originally posted by cdtm
Seems that way.

If you're the right marginalized group, anyways. Why is it that Native Americans or many asians could get crapped on, and nobody cares, but the lgbt agenda has become almost sacred? It seems like homophobia is treated even worse then racism these days..

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

But for me one problem I see is I don't think I will ever be able to shake the feeling that a young kid who wants to cut his penis off and become a woman is not a mentally stable person.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah but how much of that is culturally drilled into us. Like if we didn't treat like such a big deal would it be such a big deal as the generations went on is what I'm asking?

Yeah sure it's a cultural thing!

But it's not my cultural upbringing to be open about my toiletry habits, nor do I think it's yours or possibly 80% of the posters on this board.

You can't exactly argue that some native tribe halfway across the planet walk around naked so it ok to do so in your hometown.

Some 3rd world countries also openly defecate on the side of the road in plain sight, that doesn't mean it's culturally acceptable by another culture.

How exactly does one even determine if a person is trans or not? I mean does someone need to identify to everyone in a women's locker room that he/she is a trans when he goes in? Is everyone supposed to just believe that person? Can I walk into a women's locker room in a gym and say "hey! don't worry! I'm in transition!" and is everyone just supposed to believe me?

How does this thing work?

Originally posted by Surtur
Strange to me. How come with that the birth sex suddenly is important?



But I think you can agree not all men can actually pull off being a woman, right? Some men, no matter what, will always just look like a dude in drag, as opposed to a female. So it's still possible younger kids would notice something potentially off, and obviously something like this probably wouldn't stay a secret from parents.

No question. There's this model in town, that a friend recruited for his modeling agency. From the moment I met her, I knew something was off.. She took hormone replacement therapy and everything, but it was something about the face.

Turned out she was indeed born a he, with some extra features of both sexes..

But I'd imagine there's also born women with masculine features.. And haven't you ever seen a woman with facial hair?

Originally posted by Surtur
Strange to me. How come with that the birth sex suddenly is important?

I do not necessarily think that it is. In many of these cases, the inmate did not legally change their gender, so as far as the law is concerned, they are still the gender that corresponds to their birth sex. In other cases, the facility does not know what to do with them. Keep in mind that transgender people are less than 1% of the population, and they are under-represented in prison populations. Most people have never met, let alone know someone who is trans, so there are not a lot of policies in place.





Originally posted by Surtur
But I think you can agree not all men can actually pull off being a woman, right? Some men, no matter what, will always just look like a dude in drag, as opposed to a female. So it's still possible younger kids would notice something potentially off, and obviously something like this probably wouldn't stay a secret from parents.

I do not think it is a matter of a teacher hiding her transgender status from parents. Rather it is about providing continuity for the her class, and not putting them through a transition as well. I do not think a teacher needs to disclose her gender to parents any more than a Jewish teacher needs to disclose his religion to parents for example. There will always be something about a teacher that students will notice and parents may be concerned with. I do not think being transgender is unique in that regard.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I do not necessarily think that it is. In many of these cases, the inmate did not legally change their gender, so as far as the law is concerned, they are still the gender that corresponds to their birth sex. In other cases, the facility does not know what to do with them. Keep in mind that transgender people are less than 1% of the population, and they are under-represented in prison populations. Most people have never met, let alone know someone who is trans, so there are not a lot of policies in place.


i agree




I do not think it is a matter of a teacher hiding her transgender status from parents. Rather it is about providing continuity for the her class, and not putting them through a transition as well. I do not think a teacher needs to disclose her gender to parents any more than a Jewish teacher needs to disclose his religion to parents for example. There will always be something about a teacher that students will notice and parents may be concerned with. I do not think being transgender is unique in that regard.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Keep in mind that transgender people are less than 1% of the population

Just this right here, this one line is all the reason in the world for me as to why this bill was 100% the right thing to do. They represent less then 1% of the population and nothing more needs to be said.

Originally posted by Surtur
Just this right here, this one line is all the reason in the world for me as to why this bill was 100% the right thing to do. They represent less then 1% of the population and nothing more needs to be said. That doesn't mean they should be discriminated against.

That actually why we have some of the laws we do. To protect minorities from oppressed by the minority.

I'm not sure this is discrimination. I mean could be this is such a crazy topic to me.

They shouldn't be discriminated against this is true. But on the other hand if you were born with a dick use the men's washroom.

It's not just these men born with dicks who have to use the male restroom, but all the men born with dicks.

If you have a sausage in your trousers then use the mens bathroom.

A dude coming out of a female bathroom will get gawked at just as much as in the other restroom.

Plus do we really want to even remotely suggest a guy who has to use the guys bathroom is being discriminated against? If a person is so afraid of being gawked at why would they decide to dress up as the opposite gender?

nt

Originally posted by Surtur
They shouldn't be discriminated against this is true. But on the other hand if you were born with a dick use the men's washroom.

It's not just these men born with dicks who have to use the male restroom, but all the men born with dicks.

If you have a sausage in your trousers then use the mens bathroom. Even in cases where the person clearly looks female or is trying to look female?

I mean one thing I'm not being seen talked about often is the mental effect this has one those transgendered people. You have someone wanting be treated like a certain gender but they are clearly being told they are silly and need to be made uncomfortable. That lack of acceptance can lead to possible social issues and problems. Like higher suicide rates.

What I'm saying it makes them stand out and even if they are using their 'correct' restrooms there still be plenty of cases where the bathrooms will be awkward. For instance the one guy that clearly looks like a dude going into the women's restroom. I'm also pretty sure a mtf transgender going into the men's rooms is going to make a lot of guys and that person uncomfortable as well.

Of course you're going to say well a guy dressing in the women's locker room could make those women uncomfortable. Don't their concerns count. And I will say yes they do. Which is why this is not an easy topic to discuss because there are many different levels to take into account.

Although I will say I've noticed the concern and talk has always leaned more to a guy in a women's locker room. No one seems to be really concerned with men being uncomfortable dressing with women an argument. We also have the argument that if men gets dressed in the same lockers as women then assault will increase. I'm not sure if this is factually true but if this is such a big concern I feel that points to another problem on how we raise our men within our culture if that is the expectation of them.

I digress back to the point though. I don't think there is an easy answer and there are valid points on both sides. Why should people be forced to stand out and dress in a locker they don't feel comfortable in. This can go both ways obviously. I'm just not sure the law around born gender bathroom usage was the correct way to handle this situation. It very clearly leaves a minority at least feeling discriminated against. It doesn't do anything to address their awkwardness.

I would be interested to see how many women there that are actually concerned about this on a side note.

I'm also wondering what people think the odds of assault in restrooms and lockers increasing would be if transgenders are allowed to use the restroom they identify with?

I don't understand the issue anyway. If you vaguely resemble the opposite sex then no one is going to question you for taking a piss. There aren't security protocols in place where you have to slam your genitals against something to unseal a locked door. Unless you're being really obnoxious about it, then there should be zero issue.

If I looked like a woman but I still had my cock, I wouldn't stand outside a woman's washroom hemming and hawwing about how I deserve to enter this facility instead, but the law is just trying to make me ashamed because I have to legally enter a men's bathroom. If you don't make a deal about it, then no one else would either.

Like those pictures of the woman complaining she has to enter washrooms with women while she looks like a dude. It's only uncomfortable because you're doing it to them. No one is going to stop you at the door and make sure you have a genetic penis just so you can pee with men. At least I hope that isn't the case.


However that brings up the point about locker rooms. If you look out of place simply in a bathroom, then how are you going to look naked when you didn't make a great transition? The alternative to this of course is simply not being naked like no one is forcing you to do. Most locker rooms have stalls anyway if you're afraid of ridicule.

I don't think locker rooms should be lumped in with public washrooms since it's different.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I don't understand the issue anyway. If you vaguely resemble the opposite sex then no one is going to question you for taking a piss. There aren't security protocols in place where you have to slam your genitals against something to unseal a locked door. Unless you're being really obnoxious about it, then there should be zero issue.

If I looked like a woman but I still had my cock, I wouldn't stand outside a woman's washroom hemming and hawwing about how I deserve to enter this facility instead, but the law is just trying to make me ashamed because I have to legally enter a men's bathroom. If you don't make a deal about it, then no one else would either.

Like those pictures of the woman complaining she has to enter washrooms with women while she looks like a dude. It's only uncomfortable because you're doing it to them. No one is going to stop you at the door and make sure you have a genetic penis just so you can pee with men. At least I hope that isn't the case.


However that brings up the point about locker rooms. If you look out of place simply in a bathroom, then how are you going to look naked when you didn't make a great transition? The alternative to this of course is simply not being naked like no one is forcing you to do. Most locker rooms have stalls anyway if you're afraid of ridicule.

I don't think locker rooms should be lumped in with public washrooms since it's different. Washrooms and lockers probably do require different talking points.

But I think the main gripe is that even if they can get away with going to the bathroom they want transgenders now have a fear of being caught and fined for it now. It could create a very nervous situation on top of any other possible anxiety that may come with being transgendered.

Originally posted by Surtur
Just this right here, this one line is all the reason in the world for me as to why this bill was 100% the right thing to do. They represent less then 1% of the population and nothing more needs to be said.

Yep

Originally posted by Newjak
Washrooms and lockers probably do require different talking points.

But I think the main gripe is that even if they can get away with going to the bathroom they want transgenders now have a fear of being caught and fined for it now. It could create a very nervous situation on top of any other possible anxiety that may come with being transgendered. You gotta be a pretty shitty person to rat a suspect out for doing a bodily function. I could see if they were creepy as hell, but on the whole I have my doubts people who think they look like the other gender should be afraid for a simple in and out. If you don't think you pass the test, then maybe you made a mistake in choosing to become a man or woman.

Plus the whole interaction thing anyway. Should be short periods of actually seeing others, and even less time to get an authority figure.

I get nervous when I take a shit in a woman's washroom, but that's because I make no efforts to look anything less than a man. The alternative is shitting my pants and that's not worth it I think.



Plus I'd be curious of how many trans dudes and women have actually been fined for minding their own in a washroom.

I want to be a dolphin. There is a doctor that is going to put prosthetics in my body to make me look like a dolphin. I'm also taking these pills to make my skin blue.
Once I transition I require every public area to provide me a pool to piss and shit in.
Tell me how this is any different than what some Trans people are asking

Originally posted by Raisen
I want to be a dolphin. There is a doctor that is going to put prosthetics in my body to make me look like a dolphin. I'm also taking these pills to make my skin blue.
Once I transition I require every public area to provide me a pool to piss and shit in.
Tell me how this is any different than what some Trans people are asking You deserve to not file taxes anymore and I think they'll give you an aquarium to live in.

Sounds pretty shitty. You picked a bad animal. I'd be a bear or something. But like the only bear in a zoo. Also sometimes I'd be people so I could leave whenever I felt like.

Originally posted by Surtur
They shouldn't be discriminated against this is true. But on the other hand if you were born with a dick use the men's washroom.

It's not just these men born with dicks who have to use the male restroom, but all the men born with dicks.

If you have a sausage in your trousers then use the mens bathroom.

A dude coming out of a female bathroom will get gawked at just as much as in the other restroom.

Plus do we really want to even remotely suggest a guy who has to use the guys bathroom is being discriminated against? If a person is so afraid of being gawked at why would they decide to dress up as the opposite gender?

Does she look like she belongs in a men's restroom?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0b/f6/48/0bf648943a35aefa4de40cd08ddc0468.jpg

Should it be a criminal offense if she doesn't use the men's room? Because that's what this bill does.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Does she look like she belongs in a men's restroom?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0b/f6/48/0bf648943a35aefa4de40cd08ddc0468.jpg

Should it be a criminal offense if she doesn't use the men's room? Because that's what this bill does.

But then when you try to put it like this then do we just take looks into account? That seems rather unfair to all those who identify was a female but just really will always look like a dude in drag.

But honestly in that picture the face kind of looks unnatural to me. Almost photoshopped. I am not saying that is the case I don't think the picture has been tampered with, but that is how strange some can look. The face seems too high up, is this just me imagining this?

Originally posted by Surtur
But then when you try to put it like this then do we just take looks into account? That seems rather unfair to all those who identify was a female but just really will always look like a dude in drag.

But honestly in that picture the face kind of looks unnatural to me. Almost photoshopped. I am not saying that is the case I don't think the picture has been tampered with, but that is how strange some can look. The face seems too high up, is this just me imagining this? Would you at least acknowledge that is also unfair to make those transgender people that do look like their identified gender?

PS I don't really care who uses what bathroom rememeber that.

Originally posted by Newjak
Would you at least acknowledge that is also unfair to make those transgender people that do look like their identified gender?

PS I don't really care who uses what bathroom rememeber that.

For me it depends on the scenario. For instance let's say you have a guy who identifies as female and looks 100% female to the point nobody would ever question it. This guy stops off at a random rest area to use the bathroom. If he decides to use the girls bathroom is anyone going to actually stop him? Whether the bill exists or not nobody is going to be there to ask someone who appears female to actually prove they are female.

So I can't help but thinking the only people who would ever truly face problems are the ones who can't pull off the gender they identify as, right? So it's hard for me to see a situation where they could ever make someone who looks the way they identify use a different bathroom.

What about people who transform themselves into dolphins

Okay well I just thought..what if a person does look 100% like a female, but the people actually personally know this person and know it is not a female. But then if you are in a womans bathroom and the women in there know you aren't a woman..isn't it going to be just as uncomfortable as being dressed as a woman and going into the mens bathroom?

Originally posted by Raisen
What about people who transform themselves into dolphins

There are actually people in romantic relationships with dolphins.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay well I just thought..what if a person does look 100% like a female, but the people actually personally know this person and know it is not a female. But then if you are in a womans bathroom and the women in there know you aren't a woman..isn't it going to be just as uncomfortable as being dressed as a woman and going into the mens bathroom? It probably depends on the person.

I would think if they felt uncomfortable about anything it would them being afraid of being told on that they broke the law.

I will note the number of reports of transgender people attacking people in restrooms in zero, the number of transgender people being attacked, very significantly more than zero.


Originally posted by Surtur
For me it depends on the scenario. For instance let's say you have a guy who identifies as female and looks 100% female to the point nobody would ever question it. This guy stops off at a random rest area to use the bathroom. If he decides to use the girls bathroom is anyone going to actually stop him? Whether the bill exists or not nobody is going to be there to ask someone who appears female to actually prove they are female.

So I can't help but thinking the only people who would ever truly face problems are the ones who can't pull off the gender they identify as, right? So it's hard for me to see a situation where they could ever make someone who looks the way they identify use a different bathroom.


The thing is, some people just look androgynous or don't pass well. Or someone could be told they're trans and demand a check, or such.

If someone is ambiguous, what do you do? Do you harass all gender-ambiguous looking people to check?

Or if someone looks like him:

http://i.imgur.com/f8vaI4z.jpg

(Actual FtM individual Buck Angel)

And just chooses to follow the law. That'd make a lot of people uncomfortable because, c'mon.

Heck, wouldn't any publicly recognizable transgender person be obvious if they went against the law?

Like what if a town has a transgender mayor who is very visually distinctive- let's say wears a mayor sash all the time and has a distinctive tattoo. So everyone knows what bathroom the mayor is legally required to go to, and no-one is going to mistake them for someone else. That'd be BS.


It'd be placing the ability to go to the bathroom on passing sufficiently well and never being publicly TG.

Smaller unisex bathrooms. What's so hard about that? That's not too hard to add for most any place.

Originally posted by Q99
I will note the number of reports of transgender people attacking people in restrooms in zero, the number of transgender people being attacked, very significantly more than zero.





The thing is, some people just look androgynous or don't pass well. Or someone could be told they're trans and demand a check, or such.

If someone is ambiguous, what do you do? Do you harass all gender-ambiguous looking people to check?

Or if someone looks like him:

http://i.imgur.com/f8vaI4z.jpg

(Actual FtM individual Buck Angel)

And just chooses to follow the law. That'd make a lot of people uncomfortable because, c'mon.

Heck, wouldn't any publicly recognizable transgender person be obvious if they went against the law?

Like what if a town has a transgender mayor who is very visually distinctive- let's say wears a mayor sash all the time and has a distinctive tattoo. So everyone knows what bathroom the mayor is legally required to go to, and no-one is going to mistake them for someone else. That'd be BS.


It'd be placing the ability to go to the bathroom on passing sufficiently well and never being publicly TG.

jesus. people really are twisted

What an overcompensating name

"Ok lass, and you said you wanted your name to be Moose Leviathan?"
"No, Buck Angel"
"..."
"It'll make sense. I already have at least 10 grand worth of supplements ordered."

Originally posted by One Big Mob
What an overcompensating name

"Ok lass, and you said you wanted your name to be Moose Leviathan?"
"No, Buck Angel"
"..."
"It'll make sense. I already have at least 10 grand worth of supplements ordered."

how much money do you think it took to become that lol

Originally posted by Raisen
jesus. people really are twisted


You think buff guys with tattoos are twisted?

Never go to a bike show




'Fun' fact- some places don't allow unisex bathrooms.

Originally posted by Q99

'Fun' fact- some places don't allow unisex bathrooms.

I'm sure those same placea would prefer unisex bathrooms over confusion over gender confusion on who goes where.

Originally posted by Raisen
how much money do you think it took to become that lol I'm going to throw out a modest 50-100 grand

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NQOGMQTf0t8/TsMEPEiKYaI/AAAAAAAAA0g/pA8816EIjoc/s1600/buck-angel.jpg

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I'm sure those same placea would prefer unisex bathrooms over confusion over gender confusion on who goes where.


Depends on whether their goal is to be helpful, or to screw over transgender individuals.


There's also moves to make designated restrooms gender neutral harder, by requiring them to install floor-to-ceiling stall doors (meaning, it costs money to change their designation).

And, looking under or over the stalls? That doesn't fly in any restroom.

Originally posted by Q99
Depends on whether their goal is to be helpful, or to screw over transgender individuals.

There's also moves to make designated restrooms gender neutral harder, by requiring them to install floor-to-ceiling stall doors (meaning, it costs money to change their designation).

And, looking under or over the stalls? That doesn't fly in any restroom.

What's your point?

It's just..wow, we are legitimately sitting here with a discussion/argument that boils down to expecting a person to use the washroom of the gender they were born with. That is pretty surreal to me that this is a thing where a bill even needs to be passed.

It just gives me a "what is this country coming to" vibe. I swear the pendulum swings both ways it seems. At one point it seemed like you could say or do anything(not literally anything, but you could get away with a lot more). Now the pendulum has swung very far to the opposite side of that. Where we have to take into consideration the feelings of someone whether it is about the bathroom they should use or whether it's about halloween costumes or whatever new thing has cropped up.

At the end of the day if you are a man with a penis and you look 100% female nobody is going to bother you unless they personally know you, and if they personally know you then it doesn't matter what bathroom you use.

Also maybe it is just the way the media portrays it, but it sure seems like there are a hell of a lot more dudes who wanna be women when compared to women who wanna be men. Why is this?

Yes. But the thing is these people want to force you to accept it. Not tolerate but force.

Originally posted by Q99
Depends on whether their goal is to be helpful, or to screw over transgender individuals.


There's also moves to make designated restrooms gender neutral harder, by requiring them to install floor-to-ceiling stall doors (meaning, it costs money to change their designation).

And, looking under or over the stalls? That doesn't fly in any restroom.

How in the world could unisex bathrooms screw over anybody?

At least, any one designation. I can see all types of friction over it, from paranoids on the "Evil pervert men in women's room" camp being uncomfortable, to "evil men having "other" at their mercy in mens room" getting riled up over it..

Lets be 100% transparent and call this what it is: people want to protect transgenders from deviant men, and any paranoia over transgenders in the women's room is that they're deviant men gaming the system.

That's the basic logic behind any resistance to unisex bathrooms, in a nutshell. (And believe me, a man is as likely as anyone to follow that logic, so don't only blame women or PC's..)