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When I say aliens I do not mean any kind of alien life, but beings with intelligence rivaling/surpassing our own.

If you do believe, why? Is it because you just think it is highly probable intelligent life isn't unique to one planet? Is it because of certain sightings and encounters of UFO's you have heard about? Or even perhaps a personal experience with a sighting?

If you don't believe they exist, why? Is it just a lack of solid evidence? Or there are some people who believe the specific properties you need for intelligent life to come about will not ever occur anywhere else in the universe.

Yes.



All but one of the above.

Originally posted by Surtur
When I say aliens I do not mean any kind of alien life, but beings with intelligence rivaling/surpassing our own.

If you do believe, why? Is it because you just think it is highly probable intelligent life isn't unique to one planet? Is it because of certain sightings and encounters of UFO's you have heard about? Or even perhaps a personal experience with a sighting?

If you don't believe they exist, why? Is it just a lack of solid evidence? Or there are some people who believe the specific properties you need for intelligent life to come about will not ever occur anywhere else in the universe.

I think the possibility of intelligent life existing in the universe is far beyond just a 100% probability. It is probably far closer to a 1,000,000,000% probability. What this means is that there are probably millions of forms of intelligent life in our universe, alone. We re so far removed from being alone in the universe that it is ridiculous.


Probably many many species of intelligent life have already come into existence and become extinct.



The idea that humanity is alone in the universe, as the only sapient lifeform, is the height of ignorant arrogance.

What's your preferred answer to the Fermi Paradox then?

^^^Whats yours to the OP? Or you keeping your vote on the DL for now?

I personally have no problem with the Fermi.
It could be as simple as aliens not wanting to contaminate us, since they're observing us, or they're avoiding us.
I mean, with the probes and messages and such we keep sending out, we could be seen as interstellar Jehovah's witnesses, bothering others.

I believe

The galaxy is a big place, could be that any intelligent life that has reached a level of possessing interstellar travel went extinct or possibly lost the ability to travel between stars long before they reached us

I'm one of those people who think it's extremely likely there's alien life somewhere out there in the universe rivaling or even surpassing humanity in sophistication, but that's about it.

Not sure.

As a kid, I was riding in the back seat, my mom at the wheel, and my sister in the passengers seat. It was the dead of night, no one else around. As we approached home they both started shouting about seeing something, just hovering in the sky.

And like an idiot, I was distracted by my music, and missed it completely. I looked, sure, but I couldn't see anything from my vantage point and really had no idea where to look.

I figured they were.messing with me, but years later at a big family get together, the older generation was talking about their various sightings, and I overheard my sister tell a friend she really did see something that looked like a saucer, sitting there for a bit, and then disappearing.

No idea what really happened, I only regret missing it. And to this day, years later, when it's dark out I look to the skies in the hopes of getting another shot at it.

So far, no luck.

The universe is so large that the probability of aliens existing seems (to me) to be almost 100% likely.

Whether they have or will ever visit us is another story. As noted, the universe is a big place.

I do, but I don't really know whether or not they've visited Earth.

Yes they exist, no we haven't met them and nor have they visited earth (at the least, we have no sign of it), but we may meet them in the future.

For me I think they exist and I believe there is a solid chance that some sightings of UFO's have been legit. The government itself when it studied thousands of cases admitted that there was a very small percentage that science couldn't explain.

Though for me I tend to look at the people who would probably be the most credible witness to these kinds of things: a pilot. Especially someone who is in the air force. There have been multiple sightings by experienced pilots going as far back as WW2 at the very least. We also have a bit more recent sightings by pilots, look up the Tehran UFO incident of 1976. These were people flying supersonic jets who were tracking the object, they know what a flying object with an intelligence behind it looks like in terms of how it would move.

The other thing for me is when the government gives us an "explanation" for a sighting that makes no scientific sense. You ever hear of "The Battle of Los Angeles" ? It happened a few months after Pearl Harbor. We pumped a whole lot of anti-aircraft artillery at...some kind of flying object and we failed to bring it down. A couple people actually died because of the chaos of friggin anti-aircraft artillery falling all over the city(their cars crashed and/or were hit by falling shells) and several buildings were damaged, so this wasn't a tiny firefight. At the time most thought it was an advanced Japanese aircraft. The government then said it was just a case of "war nerves" brought on by a weather balloon sighting.

They are telling us that we had weather balloons that could withstand massive barrages of machine guns and anti-aircraft artillery. Or if you look at the Tehran incident I mentioned the explanation someone gave(though to be fair this was not a government official, but someone who wrote a book about debunking UFO's) they said what the pilots saw was really just Jupiter. Despite the fact stars and planets do not show up on the radar in airplanes.

Wow, its great to see so many people here believe.

I think that any race intelligent enough to master space travel will figure out that mass suicide is better than the territorial effort that is continued existence. That's why we never meet them.

So to clarify my answer, I do believe aliens much more intelligent than us existed or exist, and then offed themselves or are about to do it.

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^Whats yours to the OP? Or you keeping your vote on the DL for now?

I personally have no problem with the Fermi.
It could be as simple as aliens not wanting to contaminate us, since they're observing us, or they're avoiding us.
I mean, with the probes and messages and such we keep sending out, we could be seen as interstellar Jehovah's witnesses, bothering others.

I don't know. Obviously I know the argument that there's so many planets in the universe there statistically must be intelligent life, but the problem is that I don't know how likely intelligent life is. If it is such an infinitesimally small likelihood that even the number of planets in the universe pales against it then obviously it wouldn't be a good argument.

Now, it seems that the likelihood of some form of life in the universe is extremely high (perhaps even in our solar system), and that of course takes away one big uncertainty making it more likely that there is intelligent life. But still, I don't feel well informed enough to make a guess either way.

I suspect the universe is probably teeming with life, that even our solar system has life "hidden" in extreme, off-Earth biospheres we have yet to penetrate. But like the ocean, you just can't walk up to the shore, scope out a glass of seawater, look, see nothing, then conclude the rest of the ocean is lifeless. The universe is simply too vast for that. But this sort of life is likely primitive or microbial.

Life with intelligence (*cynicism on hold here*) like us, or greater?

If Earth is in any way typical, I'd say such life is extremely rare, if for no other reason than, as we've seen on Earth, higher intelligence isn't exactly necessary for life to thrive.

My version of the Drake equation:
1. Since life began on Earth, I'd read that some 50 billion different species have come and gone (mostly gone).
2. Out of that 50 billion, only one -- 1 -- has risen to extreme technological eminence. So we now have a ratio of pre-intelligent life to intelligent life: 50 billion to 1.
3. The Milky Way is estimated to have about 500 billion stars. If we apply the same ratio on Earth to the whole galaxy, we have 10 stars with at least one planet harboring intelligent life.
4. With a galaxy 100,000 lightyears across, that puts the average distance between intelligent life systems at 10,000 lightyears.
5. 10K LY is far more than enough to keep any radio/EM-broadcasting (or certainly less advanced) civilization seemingly isolated and apparently alone.
6. Those at a "Star Trek" phase of exploration: aliens at that exact level of development, as we imagine (and what are the odds of that), could be out there, or not; could be close by, or not. (Regarding UFOs: I find no compelling evidence that these are alien visitations. If anything, given the *prevalence* of humanoid types, at worst that's a cultural trope; at best, if real, I would sooner go with time travelers from a far future.) In any event, given the distances and energy requirements, I would think interstellar flight via starships would not be as routine as our pop scifi generally portrays.
7. Those that are far more advanced than us (ie, using some other form of communication/transportation) likely aren't detectable by us, and they know better than to interact with a race at our stage of, um, development.)

Conclusion: Yes, I think there is intelligent alien life out there, but it is rare, again if only because intelligence isn't necessary for life to thrive (and indeed, if we end up destroying ourselves, than higher intelligence may be, in the longer term, actually counterproductive to extreme, long-term species survival).


/speculative lecture

"If we apply the same ratio on Earth to the whole galaxy, we have 10 stars with at least one planet harboring intelligent life."

This is completely arbitrary though.....those two numbers have nothing to do with each other.

I'm glad you mentioned the Drake equation though. That is basically what I wanted to say with my last post, the uncertainty of most of the variables in it is what makes me uncomfortable giving a guess at all.

Originally posted by Bardock42
"If we apply the same ratio on Earth to the whole galaxy, we have 10 stars with at least one planet harboring intelligent life."

This is completely arbitrary though...Pretty much any *estimation* of intelligent alien life is going to have arbitrary elements, and my 2-cents worth does seemingly address the Fermi paradox.

EDIT: Huh. Just found this: http://mic.com/articles/132055/scientists-figured-out-where-aliens-might-be-hiding-and-how-we-could-talk-to-them?utm_source=aol&utm_medium=content&utm_campaign=partner#.aqPU2gjEa

Seems a whole party could be going on just outside our galaxy.

Originally posted by Mindship
Pretty much any *estimation* of intelligent alien life is going to have arbitrary elements, and my 2-cents worth does seemingly address the Fermi paradox.

EDIT: Huh. Just found this: http://mic.com/articles/132055/scientists-figured-out-where-aliens-might-be-hiding-and-how-we-could-talk-to-them?utm_source=aol&utm_medium=content&utm_campaign=partner#.aqPU2gjEa

Seems a whole party could be going on just outside our galaxy.

Yeah, I totally agree. My gripe was mostly with using the same ratio of species to intelligent life on earth for the ratio of planets without life to planets with in the universe.

It's fine to use the number, but the explanation doesn't give it any more validity. It would be equally valid to say "My house has four steps at the entrance so I take the ratio of lifeless planets to planets with life as 4 to 1)

I don't think "believe" would be the correct term for my position. I think that, given the diversity of life on this planet and the extremes of environment in which life can exist here, it stands to reason that the conditions necessary to support life are also present elsewhere in the universe besides this planet, so there is a likelihood of life elsewhere as well, whether sentient or otherwise.

I think it's funny to see God as some dude arranging physical laws as if he was changing a radio tunner.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think it's funny to see God as some dude arranging physical laws as if he was changing a radio tunner.
I think it's meant there as a metaphor, perhaps? But yeah, kinda funny.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It would be equally valid to say "My house has four steps at the entrance so I take the ratio of lifeless planets to planets with life as 4 to 1) That, I think, is really going arbitrary. OTOH, as Eddington (or Haldane) might have said, the *Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.* So, there may be some validity to your house steps, or even my 50 billion.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think that any race intelligent enough to master space travel will figure out that mass suicide is better than the territorial effort that is continued existence. That's why we never meet them.

I think any race so advanced would have also master things like happiness and suffering, and would probably be very happy in their continued existence.

One thing I always found curious is some people indeed seem to feel aliens would be more enlightened then humans. That they'd see us and our wars and consider us barbaric. People have suggested they don't like the fact we have nuclear weapons because we just can't be trusted.

But for me I rather think that while biology might differ, there will always be certain traits ingrained in intelligent life. I think you'd always have things like war. I also think it's pretty much guaranteed that if a species can travel vast interstellar distances they most assuredly have weapons of mass destruction on a scale we can't even imagine.

Some sightings have even reported multiple crafts of different origin, with one kind apparently discharging some kind of energy weapon at the other. There was also a strange occurrence over Nuremberg, Germany in 1561:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg

Here is a picture in a paper from the time that was drawn by a witness, I'm not saying this is aliens I don't wtf it is:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Himmelserscheinung_%C3%BCber_N%C3%BCrnberg_vom_14._April_1561.jpg

Originally posted by Surtur
One thing I always found curious is some people indeed seem to feel aliens would be more enlightened then humans. That they'd see us and our wars and consider us barbaric. People have suggested they don't like the fact we have nuclear weapons because we just can't be trusted.

But for me I rather think that while biology might differ, there will always be certain traits ingrained in intelligent life. I think you'd always have things like war. I also think it's pretty much guaranteed that if a species can travel vast interstellar distances they most assuredly have weapons of mass destruction on a scale we can't even imagine.

Pretty much any intelligence is going to grow from a less-intelligent form in a competitive environment. Which means fighting.

Aliens won't necessarily still do war, but they'll know the concept.

I mean, if you look at our history, the levels of violence have varied... but it's also technology based. Small tribes can afford to nigh constantly be in conflict with each other because their fighting is so low-casualty. Big nations with machinegun, even with their larger sizes, are hurt more by wars. And once you have nukes... well, you spend a lot more effort making sure your conflicts don't reach that level.

I do think aliens may be more 'enlightened,' but not from being inherently so, that's probably balderdash. But simply from technology and necessity, much as it is with us.

And even if they're peaceful, they sure as heck will know *how* to throw down. Quite possibly with tools-originally-intended-for-non-weapon-purposes-but-that-make-nukes-look-weak.






More specifically, people have reporting multiple *somethings*, without much concrete data on them.

No, much less intelligent life, if we even are to be considered that ourselves.

Alien sightings on Earth are a joke. Most of the time the people doing the seeing are people who are easily deceived or see what they want to see. So many sightings, the alien ships must not be advance enough to hide from Bobby and Tom. Make you wonder why they come to Earth if they don't want to be seen yet they know humans see them. Not very consistent aliens, we can easily debunk intelligent aliens visiting Earth.

I'm not going to consider aliens as part of the equation that is the universe. There is no evidence for them and no reason to believe they exist.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What's your preferred answer to the Fermi Paradox then?

The is no one answer. It is probably a combination of many different answers:

1. Interstellar travel is not really possible or feasible. This theory, while negative, posits that it is simply not possible to develop technology like FTL travel or worm hole travel.
2. All intelligent life will develop some sort of Prime Directive once they obtain interstellar travel. And the probability of not having a Prime Directive is much lower than having one. This is a version of the Zoo hypothesis and can possibly be contradicted. But this seems like a strong candidate because that's also how humans would treat nascent civilizations if we found them. We may be seen as "stone age" lifeforms to any species capable of reasonably fast interstellar travel. Meaning, we just aren't worthy enough to be contacted by intelligent life, just yet.
3. We have been contacted/visited by multiple species of intelligent life and some of this intelligent life is from the future and some from the past (meaning, we are not restricted by their physical origins: they may have temporal origins, as well). There seems to be a large amount of solid evidence for this and not just in recent history: in human civilization for quite some time.
4. Communications are not in the form of Radio signals (or similar EM communication methods). They use other, undetectable methods for communication.
5. Technological singularities occur very quickly once true AI is born. AI, once it develops, eventually starts to behave the same way no matter which civilization gives birth to it (it could actually be a yet to be discovered natural law of the universe implying that true AI and even intelligent life will always behave in a certain way, if given enough time and if that civilization passes a threshold of intelligence (barring any civilization destroying natural disasters)).
6. As technology advances for a civilization, they don't turn outward, they turn inward into virtualized universes. They can simulate the universe to such a degree as to create almost to very exact duplicate virtual universes in simulations which completely forgoes the need to travel to other locations.

Originally posted by Surtur
For me I think they exist and I believe there is a solid chance that some sightings of UFO's have been legit. The government itself when it studied thousands of cases admitted that there was a very small percentage that science couldn't explain.

This is my theory as well...government cover up, to some extent.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The is no one answer. It is probably a combination of many different answers:

1. Interstellar travel is not really possible or feasible. This theory, while negative, posits that it is simply not possible to develop technology like FTL travel or worm hole travel.
2. All intelligent life will develop some sort of Prime Directive once they obtain interstellar travel. And the probability of not having a Prime Directive is much lower than having one. This is a version of the Zoo hypothesis and can possibly be contradicted. But this seems like a strong candidate because that's also how humans would treat nascent civilizations if we found them. We may be seen as "stone age" lifeforms to any species capable of reasonably fast interstellar travel. Meaning, we just aren't worthy enough to be contacted by intelligent life, just yet.
3. We have been contacted/visited by multiple species of intelligent life and some of this intelligent life is from the future and some from the past (meaning, we are not restricted by their physical origins: they may have temporal origins, as well). There seems to be a large amount of solid evidence for this and not just in recent history: in human civilization for quite some time.
4. Communications are not in the form of Radio signals (or similar EM communication methods). They use other, undetectable methods for communication.
5. Technological singularities occur very quickly once true AI is born. AI, once it develops, eventually starts to behave the same way no matter which civilization gives birth to it (it could actually be a yet to be discovered natural law of the universe implying that true AI and even intelligent life will always behave in a certain way, if given enough time and if that civilization passes a threshold of intelligence (barring any civilization destroying natural disasters)).
6. As technology advances for a civilization, they don't turn outward, they turn inward into virtualized universes. They can simulate the universe to such a degree as to create almost to very exact duplicate virtual universes in simulations which completely forgoes the need to travel to other locations.

Again, which ones do you think are correct?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Again, which ones do you think are correct?

Originally posted by dadudemon
The is no one answer. It is probably a combination of many different answers:

But obviously some of these are contradictory. So I'm not asking what are possible answers to the Fermi Paradox (I knew those already), I am asking which ones you think is the most likely to be the answer.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But obviously some of these are contradictory. So I'm not asking what are possible answers to the Fermi Paradox (I knew those already), I am asking which ones you think is the most likely to be the answer.

I like all of them as being correct answers: even the ones that contradict. Obviously, that's why I listed them. Since there are clearly far more answers out there than just my list, you should have deduced that.

Cool, cool, so you think the contradictory ones are equally likely, that makes sense..

Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
No, much less intelligent life, if we even are to be considered that ourselves.

Alien sightings on Earth are a joke. Most of the time the people doing the seeing are people who are easily deceived or see what they want to see. So many sightings, the alien ships must not be advance enough to hide from Bobby and Tom. Make you wonder why they come to Earth if they don't want to be seen yet they know humans see them. Not very consistent aliens, we can easily debunk intelligent aliens visiting Earth.

I'm not going to consider aliens as part of the equation that is the universe. There is no evidence for them and no reason to believe they exist.

If it was just crazy people with zero credibility who made these sightings you would have a point, but that just isn't the case. Police officers, people who pilot commercial airplanes, military personnel, etc. There have been numerous sightings at military bases, especially ones that contained any kind of nuclear weapons. Sometimes it was random inexperienced soldiers seeing it. Other times it was experienced generals seeing these things. Also keep in mind reporting that kind of stuff in the military can potentially hurt your career. Or heck in any law enforcement agency as well. Actually, it can even hurt the careers of airline pilots if they actually report these things.

Also the fact people have been able to see the UFO's doesn't mean they aren't advanced. It could just mean the beings in the craft weren't concerned about a couple of people seeing them? Especially if they had any idea the way things were on this planet...they would know the people would be dismissed exactly like what you have just done.

So the problem is we have only been able to debunk about 98% of the sightings.

What if there were no planets other than Earth capable of sustaining life? The Earth is in the exact correct spot. Not too far from the Sun, and not too close. Space is sooo frigging vast that all it would take is a slight distance difference than our own from or to a star, and poof no life can exist. Fluke? Oh yeah and I don't believe in aliens unless they come from Earth.

Originally posted by Surtur
If it was just crazy people with zero credibility who made these sightings you would have a point, but that just isn't the case. Police officers, people who pilot commercial airplanes, military personnel, etc. There have been numerous sightings at military bases, especially ones that contained any kind of nuclear weapons. Sometimes it was random inexperienced soldiers seeing it. Other times it was experienced generals seeing these things. Also keep in mind reporting that kind of stuff in the military can potentially hurt your career. Or heck in any law enforcement agency as well. Actually, it can even hurt the careers of airline pilots if they actually report these things.

Also the fact people have been able to see the UFO's doesn't mean they aren't advanced. It could just mean the beings in the craft weren't concerned about a couple of people seeing them? Especially if they had any idea the way things were on this planet...they would know the people would be dismissed exactly like what you have just done.

So the problem is we have only been able to debunk about 98% of the sightings.

People make mistakes and see what they want to see. It doesn't mean we should just accept what they say they saw and take it as fact.

If Aliens knew about society then they would know we can record them and take pictures of them. If they didn't care for this they wouldn't try to hide from us as they seem to always do. If they did care about concealing they exist they're doing a bad job at it with their super advanced technology.

Let's assume that 1.) Aliens do exist 2.) They have advanced technology 3.) They conceal their presence from use.

Given this no human could have seen them or know that they exist. If they do show themselves to some humans they must be doing it as a bad joke then, which I respect and would high five them. But this contradicts premise number 3.

Now let's assume they don't care if we know they exist so 3.) They don't conceal their presence.

In such a case why don't they contact humans? Why isn't there a legitimate piece of evidence to prove they exist. Why is all the proof we have of them amount to the proof of big foot?

It's unreasonable to think aliens exist ( but not improbable ) and much more to think they actually visit Earth on regular basis.

I suggest you put more thought into this belief.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I think any race so advanced would have also master things like happiness and suffering, and would probably be very happy in their continued existence.

Spoken like an species that's not advanced enough

You don't need to "solve" problems with happiness or suffering if everyone is dead, it's the simplest and better solution. The one truly disgusting issue that we have to solve is our fear of Death our stubborness on continued existence.

Originally posted by Bentley
Spoken like an species that's not advanced enough

You don't need to "solve" problems with happiness or suffering if everyone is dead, it's the simplest and better solution. The one truly disgusting issue that we have to solve is our fear of Death our stubborness on continued existence.
Why do you assume they'd go with the simplest solution? And why do you assume they'd have this bizarre death cult mentality? Being alive and happy is better than being dead.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Why do you assume they'd go with the simplest solution?

I assume that they stop self-deceiving themselves after a certain amount of intelligence.


Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And why do you assume they'd have this bizarre death cult mentality?

Death Cults are ignorant in their choices and can be seen as blunt hits towards society. As a race that defines good or bad depending on social responsability, this is obviously frowned upon.

Alien that commit mass suicide would do the informed choice and would be erasing any morality factor regarding their culture because it would cease to exist with them.

Entirely different actions in entirely different contexts.


Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Being alive and happy is better than being dead.

There are many problems in life beyond personal or even cultural happiness, take our relationship with animals as an example. If the aliens get to be happy, should they also make every organic being in their biosphere happy? If they decide against it, they see themselves as some kind of special event and I'd argue, they aren't at all that intelligent; if they are for it, they essentially launch in a sizeable quest that has no ending and it's stupid in its own right. Life makes you stupid because it's full of poor choices.

Getting technology that makes them essentially gods wouldn't be any less childish than the example above. Learning to live with how things are is also a possibility, but so is Learning to die that way.

Originally posted by Bentley
I assume that they stop self-deceiving themselves after a certain amount of intelligence.




Death Cults are ignorant in their choices and can be seen as blunt hits towards society. As a race that defines good or bad depending on social responsability, this is obviously frowned upon.

Alien that commit mass suicide would do the informed choice and would be erasing any morality factor regarding their culture because it would cease to exist with them.

Entirely different actions in entirely different contexts.




There are many problems in life beyond personal or even cultural happiness, take our relationship with animals as an example. If the aliens get to be happy, should they also make every organic being in their biosphere happy? If they decide against it, they see themselves as some kind of special event and I'd argue, they aren't at all that intelligent; if they are for it, they essentially launch in a sizeable quest that has no ending and it's stupid in its own right. Life makes you stupid because it's full of poor choices.

Getting technology that makes them essentially gods wouldn't be any less childish than the example above. Learning to live with how things are is also a possibility, but so is Learning to die that way.

Yes, you assume.

What about members of the race who did not wish to die? What if they did not wish to join the death cult that their civilization has become? What about morality then?

Well, that would be entirely up to the race in question. If they are able to create godlike technology, then perhaps they are pretty special and highly intelligent, no? What you're saying is that they don't agree with your philosophy that makes them dumb. Please.

Again, we are disagreeing in the nature of self-deception. I think that up to a point you can be a technologically advanced race without displaying an overwhelming intelligence, that poses me no trouble or whatsoever. But advanced intelligences are better off dead, and they'd be smart enough to know so. We, being inferior beings like we are, can only speculate which turns us into blind life cultists.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, we are disagreeing in the nature of self-deception. I think that up to a point you can be a technologically advanced race without displaying an overwhelming intelligence, that poses me no trouble or whatsoever. But advanced intelligences are better off dead, and they'd be smart enough to know so. We, being inferior beings like we are, can only speculate which turns us into blind life cultists.
You're making some seriously bold assumptions about what would "advanced intelligences" think.

Originally posted by Surtur
When I say aliens I do not mean any kind of alien life, but beings with intelligence rivaling/surpassing our own.

If you do believe, why? Is it because you just think it is highly probable intelligent life isn't unique to one planet? Is it because of certain sightings and encounters of UFO's you have heard about? Or even perhaps a personal experience with a sighting?

If you don't believe they exist, why? Is it just a lack of solid evidence? Or there are some people who believe the specific properties you need for intelligent life to come about will not ever occur anywhere else in the universe.
I believe in the possibility of existence of alien life-forms in other Earth-like planets that are suitable for life.

However, I doubt the existence of an alien life-form as capable as shown in some Sci-Fi movies.

Earth is billions of years old and it is yet to experience an invasion by some kind of (hypothetical) super-advanced extraterrestrial force, think about it.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
You're making some seriously bold assumptions about what would "advanced intelligences" think.

Yeah well, I can come up with other assumptions that aren't any less bold. The premise about life and death being irrelevant comes from the idea of existence being essentially meaningless. The advanced intelligence could also know life is important, but it would delve from a kind of knowledge that we can only guess as religious/spiritual right now.

Many people assume that intelligence is some sort of generic value that increases the quality of existence as it goes up, like in a videogame, I see it as a tool to solve problems. It can be a terribly ineffective tool if you apply it incorrectly, for example, if your goal is not to commit mass suicide, you might want to ignore smarts and good sense and lie to yourself forever.

Or find God I guess.

Originally posted by Bentley
Yeah well, I can come up with other assumptions that aren't any less bold. The premise about life and death being irrelevant comes from the idea of existence being essentially meaningless. The advanced intelligence could also know life is important, but it would delve from a kind of knowledge that we can only guess as religious/spiritual right now.

Many people assume that intelligence is some sort of generic value that increases the quality of existence as it goes up, like in a videogame, I see it as a tool to solve problems. It can be a terribly ineffective tool if you apply it incorrectly, for example, if your goal is not to commit mass suicide, you might want to ignore smarts and good sense and lie to yourself forever.

Or find God I guess.
Humans are intelligent enough to realize that life is intrinsically meaningless, yet we haven't commit mass-suicide yet. I don't understand why you think that a species more advanced than us would take nihilism to such an extreme. Hell, for all we know, they could find a meaning to life we inferior species haven't even considered.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Humans are intelligent enough to realize that life is intrinsically meaningless, yet we haven't commit mass-suicide yet. I don't understand why you think that a species more advanced than us would take nihilism to such an extreme. Hell, for all we know, they could find a meaning to life we inferior species haven't even considered.

Humans have deduced life is intrinsically meaningless, but we are still basically running on instinct. We reproduce because we produce hormones to mate and we embrace it because it's real and being organic and impulsive aren't bad things. But that isn't reason nor intelligence.

In the other hand couples that are considered to be better at decision making mate less. Human intelligence tends to forego of life. You're right in pointing out that there could be inhuman smarts, but we can only go from what we know, that's the only sensible way to approach the question -otherwise we'd be writting fiction-.

Again, intelligence is just a form of decision making, a simple tool. If a race was to depend on it's use much more than we do, terrible things* might as well happen because that's not a balanced environment.

*- Well, nothing is terrible on and by itself, but that was just dramatic effect.

i've been anal probed by aliens.
don't treat this as a joke. the aliens dressed up like my uncle and raped me

Originally posted by Raisen
i've been anal probed by aliens.
don't treat this as a joke. the aliens dressed up like my uncle and raped me

Tell the police, that way your uncle may sue the alien for impersonating him.

Originally posted by Bentley
Tell the police, that way your uncle may sue the alien for impersonating him.

so i tell the police that an alien raped me while dressed like my uncle? you seem like an expert in this matter so please guide a novice throught

Originally posted by Raisen
so i tell the police that an alien raped me while dressed like my uncle? you seem like an expert in this matter so please guide a novice throught

I'm actually relatively uninformed on US law when it comes to how this kind of thing is filled. If you think it's too tall of a story to tell the police, then you should ask a good friend for advice he might help you spin it in a better way.

maybe i should just go to my uncle's house and discuss this over some wine like he mentioned

Originally posted by Bentley
Humans have deduced life is intrinsically meaningless, but we are still basically running on instinct. We reproduce because we produce hormones to mate and we embrace it because it's real and being organic and impulsive aren't bad things. But that isn't reason nor intelligence.

In the other hand couples that are considered to be better at decision making mate less. Human intelligence tends to forego of life. You're right in pointing out that there could be inhuman smarts, but we can only go from what we know, that's the only sensible way to approach the question -otherwise we'd be writting fiction-.

Again, intelligence is just a form of decision making, a simple tool. If a race was to depend on it's use much more than we do, terrible things* might as well happen because that's not a balanced environment.

*- Well, nothing is terrible on and by itself, but that was just dramatic effect.

Who's to say that an advanced alien species wouldn't have instincts? In fact, an advanced enough civilization could very well actually manipulate and "edit" things like instincts and hormones. They could be organic and impulsive while also being highly intelligent.

While it's true that more educated and intelligent people tend to have fewer children, it doesn't mean that they don't value life.

It seems to me like you think that an advanced intelligence would have to be some kinda of an unfeeling, emotionless machine that would inevitably have to embrace nihilism.

Originally posted by Raisen
i've been anal probed by aliens.
don't treat this as a joke. the aliens dressed up like my uncle and raped me
Funny thing... my uncle once raped me in the ass while dressed up as an alien.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Who's to say that an advanced alien species wouldn't have instincts? In fact, an advanced enough civilization could very well actually manipulate and "edit" things like instincts and hormones. They could be organic and impulsive while also being highly intelligent.

Well, then you could argue that their decision making is poorer because it's impulsive. Then we'd be assuming they are intelligent enough not to be the most intelligent they can be. Which is sort of where we are since we lie to ourselves terribly.


Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
While it's true that more educated and intelligent people tend to have fewer children, it doesn't mean that they don't value life.

It does tell us that reasonable decision making departs from instict.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
It seems to me like you think that an advanced intelligence would have to be some kinda of an unfeeling, emotionless machine that would inevitably have to embrace nihilism.

Yes, that is because the idea of mass suicide as the end of a race's lifetime came to me from discussing with a poster who was a big promoter of humans becoming essentially AI. By becoming AI they are already commiting mass suicide, so I don't think the AI would have much of a motivation to continue its existence indefinitively. Up to a point, machine intelligence and organic beings are very different things.

However, suicide is something that happen very often with humans compared with less intelligent animals because we are conscious of our actions. It's a part of the life equation despite the many efforts our society makes to hide it as a shameful thing. The more open and intelligent we become, the better option suicide seems to be. At some point we will allow people to kill themselves freely.

Just by looking at us right now I can tell death plays a big part in our desire for eternity, so if we continue to play god with technology it's very likely to be one of our ends. Then again, we could stray from that path given the right conditioning, but as we stand I remain sceptic.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Funny thing... my uncle once raped me in the ass while dressed up as an alien.

i did find that funny. interesting

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, then you could argue that their decision making is poorer because it's impulsive. Then we'd be assuming they are intelligent enough not to be the most intelligent they can be. Which is sort of where we are since we lie to ourselves terribly.




It does tell us that reasonable decision making departs from instict.



Yes, that is because the idea of mass suicide as the end of a race's lifetime came to me from discussing with a poster who was a big promoter of humans becoming essentially AI. By becoming AI they are already commiting mass suicide, so I don't think the AI would have much of a motivation to continue its existence indefinitively. Up to a point, machine intelligence and organic beings are very different things.

However, suicide is something that happen very often with humans compared with less intelligent animals because we are conscious of our actions. It's a part of the life equation despite the many efforts our society makes to hide it as a shameful thing. The more open and intelligent we become, the better option suicide seems to be. At some point we will allow people to kill themselves freely.

Just by looking at us right now I can tell death plays a big part in our desire for eternity, so if we continue to play god with technology it's very likely to be one of our ends. Then again, we could stray from that path given the right conditioning, but as we stand I remain sceptic.
So you'd think less of them for not fully embracing cold, machine-like nihilistic logic and actually choosing to be happy? You know, there are people who fully recognize that life has no intrinsic meaning, but still remain happy.

Yeah, it sure does sometimes. Doesn't mean it's unreasonable to be happy.

Well, I believe that a sufficiently advanced AI could feel identical or very similar emotions and motivations to biological intelligences. So there's probably not a whole lot of difference there. The vast majority of people commit suicide due to psychological disturbances, not because they came to the conclusion that it's the best option through some sort of a philosophy. In fact, I think it's very telling that we can contemplate the meaninglessness of life without not only not immediately deciding to kill ourselves, but actually remaining happy.

What can I say: most of us are just not very comfortable with death.

In all fairness and as I said before, contemplating individual extinction to the erasement of an entire race certainly works at very different levels.

I think that most human happiness implies having reasonable expectations regarding our own finality, which is why I said that trying to expand ourselves to eternity is likely to be troublesome in our current mindset.

We don't actually need many things to achieve happiness, so as a society, a huge intelligence leap since unnecessary to reach such a goal. Which meets my idea of more intelligent not being "better", smarts being a limited procedure for task based stimuli.

Originally posted by Bentley
In all fairness and as I said before, contemplating individual extinction to the erasement of an entire race certainly works at very different levels.

I think that most human happiness implies having reasonable expectations regarding our own finality, which is why I said that trying to expand ourselves to eternity is likely to be troublesome in our current mindset.

We don't actually need many things to achieve happiness, so as a society, a huge intelligence leap since unnecessary to reach such a goal. Which meets my idea of more intelligent not being "better", smarts being a limited procedure for task based stimuli.
An entire race is composed of individuals and at least a vast majority of those individuals would have to agree to go extinct. I'm not sure what would happen to those who would disagree.

It could very well be troublesome, but as we become more advanced I believe we'll be able to take our evolution and biology into our own hands. I think that should eliminate at least some of the troubles.

True, but becoming more intelligent can definitely help us overcome involuntary suffering. At least a good deal of it.

By the way, this is a pretty nifty short film that you may find interesting: http://putlocker.is/watch-world-of-tomorrow-online-free-putlocker.html

There could be a time in which individuals that want to live are considered mentally ill.

I agree that we could still be a bit more intelligent and potentially happy, so far it has worked out.

I'll check the film after work, thanks!

I'm not saying I believe this, but some ufologists have argued that our own technology is evidence of contact with aliens. They argue that after the Roswell crash(which was in 1947) we experienced an unprecedented technological boom and a little over 2 decades later had a man on the moon.

I guess the implication being something crashed at Roswell and we reverse engineered some of the wreckage we found.

I admit I have always found Roswell odd. Merely because it was the military that first told us they had a UFO, but then they went back and said it was just a weather balloon. Prior to this incident the government was actual somewhat open with people about these kinds of things. But then Roswell is when they adopted the policy to just deny.

EDIT: If you want to read some really wacky stuff then read the "Blue Planet Project". It was a book with an anonymous author who apparently worked for the US government and it's basically all about aliens and how we deal with them and interact what them and what their goals are. It apparently lists over 100 different species that we know of. It also talks about how cover ups operated, etc. Here is a PDF link:

http://www.whale.to/b/BluePlanetProject.pdf

Oh and yep, there is stuff about psionic powers in there lol. It's amusing, though if the stuff in that book was actually true it's pretty horrifying.

So yep some of the aliens feed on human blood in order to survive. But no, not vampire style. Apparently they soak in some kind of bath with human blood and other fluids and absorb the nutrients.

Originally posted by Surtur
So yep some of the aliens feed on human blood in order to survive. But no, not vampire style. Apparently they soak in some kind of bath with human blood and other fluids and absorb the nutrients.
Sounds nuttier than candy bar shit, but it sure is entertaining.

I was watching an episode of "Unsealed alien files" and there was this woman on there who is apparently a medium and she is in contact with a race known as "Arcturians" that are like our ancestors or something. They quite literally do an interview with her when she is "possessed" by one of these things.

Originally posted by Bentley
There could be a time in which individuals that want to live are considered mentally ill.

I agree that we could still be a bit more intelligent and potentially happy, so far it has worked out.

I'll check the film after work, thanks!
Now that would be a scary time indeed. Though I think that such an advanced civilization would respect a person's right to live or die.

I don't think that intelligence necessarily has to lead to unhappiness.

Originally posted by Surtur
I was watching an episode of "Unsealed alien files" and there was this woman on there who is apparently a medium and she is in contact with a race known as "Arcturians" that are like our ancestors or something. They quite literally do an interview with her when she is "possessed" by one of these things.
Now I'd like to see that.

The tv series is on Netflix if you have it.

I'm watching an episode of Ancient Aliens right now about nazi's that apparently found a downed UFO and used it to create time travel technology.

So we apparently have at least 7 weapons meant to fight aliens, only 2 of which are known. The "Joshua" weapon which is a low frequency pulse sound generating weapon and something called "Excalibur" which is a missile meant for destroying underground alien bases. It can drill through 1,000 meters of hard soil apparently.

It's good to know we are all in such good hands.

That sounds like a doozy. Too bad I don't have Netflix.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Now that would be a scary time indeed. Though I think that such an advanced civilization would respect a person's right to live or die.

I suppose, though it'd be irresponsible if admittedly "crazy" people are left behind with high tech devices to do what they want. But in this scenario we are really speculation about a whole lot of sociopolitics.

If a race had the option of staying alive pretty much indefinitively I think several anti-life measures would be taken to keep the material world more or less stable. It might be sterilization, it might be murder by lotery or people get to choose when they die, in which case, that society wants several people do desire death.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I don't think that intelligence necessarily has to lead to unhappiness.

Neither do I, but I think happiness assumes you're at peace with death, if Superior intelligences help entities to get happier, it probably includes among its elements a better acceptance of death.

Originally posted by Surtur
When I say aliens I do not mean any kind of alien life, but beings with intelligence rivaling/surpassing our own.

If you do believe, why? Is it because you just think it is highly probable intelligent life isn't unique to one planet? Is it because of certain sightings and encounters of UFO's you have heard about? Or even perhaps a personal experience with a sighting?

If you don't believe they exist, why? Is it just a lack of solid evidence? Or there are some people who believe the specific properties you need for intelligent life to come about will not ever occur anywhere else in the universe.

I believe in aliens more then I used too after being on KMC. There are some strange looking people here.

Originally posted by Bentley
I suppose, though it'd be irresponsible if admittedly "crazy" people are left behind with high tech devices to do what they want. But in this scenario we are really speculation about a whole lot of sociopolitics.

If a race had the option of staying alive pretty much indefinitively I think several anti-life measures would be taken to keep the material world more or less stable. It might be sterilization, it might be murder by lotery or people get to choose when they die, in which case, that society wants several people do desire death.



Neither do I, but I think happiness assumes you're at peace with death, if Superior intelligences help entities to get happier, it probably includes among its elements a better acceptance of death.
I don't know whether a race that decided to commit mass-suicide would care what is done with the tech they'd leave behind. It indeed is just a whole lot of speculation.

Indeed, but I speculate that such a race would naturally have extremely low birth rates making anti-overpopulation measure mostly unnecessary(especially if the race in question was colonizing other planets).

I completely agree that being at peace with death has a very positive effect on one's happiness.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Indeed, but I speculate that such a race would naturally have extremely low birth rates making anti-overpopulation measure mostly unnecessary(especially if the race in question was colonizing other planets).

Admitting low birth rates does present us with an analog situation of that of educated couples nowadays that are uninterested in having kids. I think the more control we have over the environment, the more we have to rationalize life itself and thus, death. Anyways, that just based in our historical decisions.

Originally posted by Bentley
Admitting low birth rates does present us with an analog situation of that of educated couples nowadays that are uninterested in having kids. I think the more control we have over the environment, the more we have to rationalize life itself and thus, death. Anyways, that just based in our historical decisions.
Yes. This is why I think that eventually we will have to take not only our biological, but also our civilizational evolution into our own hands.

I think it only makes sense, it might sound conflicting to our current biological paradigma, but times and civilizations change I bet it engineering will come naturally when it happens.

I also don't think it's such a "slippery slope" doomed future as other people make it to be.

Here is something strange, not so much for the sighting but for what happened afterwards. It was a sighting known as the "Phoenix Lights". A lot of people witnessed what they thought at the time were crafts of unknown origin..not from this world. This happened in 1997.

Not long after the sighting the governor of Arizona called a press conference announcing they had caught those responsible. Then at the press conference they had a dude dressed in an alien suit come out and basically they all just laughed. Kind of dickish to ridicule some of the people in your state, but okay to each their own. Then the government comes out with the explanation that what people saw were flares from aircrafts.

It all seems to apparently check out, but then several years later the former governor of Arizona says he thinks the UFO sighting was genuine and that it wasn't the first time he'd seen something like it. He was in the airforce and as a pilot said what he saw wasn't like any craft from this planet. He said he did the press conference in an attempt to dismiss the situation so people would not panic.

Lol I saw that press conference when I was kid. It scared me shitless until the gov took the mask off.

I probably would of been pissed if I was a witness and then the governor just dismissed it all like that. I would of felt somewhat betrayed.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think it only makes sense, it might sound conflicting to our current biological paradigma, but times and civilizations change I bet it engineering will come naturally when it happens.

I also don't think it's such a "slippery slope" doomed future as other people make it to be.
Yeah, seeing especially how our biology and even sociology simply cannot keep up with advancements in technology and lifestyle.

Yes I do. Never seen one, but I've had some supernatural things happen, and I'm sure God is real.

Originally posted by Stoic
What if there were no planets other than Earth capable of sustaining life? The Earth is in the exact correct spot. Not too far from the Sun, and not too close. Space is sooo frigging vast that all it would take is a slight distance difference than our own from or to a star, and poof no life can exist. Fluke? Oh yeah and I don't believe in aliens unless they come from Earth.

I don't believe aliens exist, but not based on the reasons you listed. If I believed in aliens, my rebuttal would be why can't life develop anywhere in the universe? Who is to say that the habitable zone we thrive in is absolutely necessary for any alien race to thrive in? For all we know, some distant frozen planet, 50 AU from its parent star may provide the necessary conditions for life to develop. You can't assume the conditions that allowed abiogenesis to occur on Earth must be the uniform law for all life throughout the cosmos.

If I believed in aliens, I'd argue that way. However, I believe God only made angels and humans as the intelligent beings of the universe. Mock me if you must.

The universe is so vast it is hard to believe only 1 planet in all of the universe would have the proper conditions for intelligent life to come about. I'm not saying it doesn't take rare conditions, but I don't think it is so rare it would only ever happen once.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/blog/2016/take-a-peek-into-our-x-files.html