What happened to the Kaminoans?

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jmoul
I'm not sure if this fits better with the TV series, but oh well. Close enough.

Now, ever since I watched the final season of TCW, I've been wondering about the fate of the Kaminoans who knowingly programmed Order 66 in the minds of the clones. I mean, they were pretty much directly responsible for the Great Jedi Purge, and they did it just because they were paid handsomely.

Anybody have any information on this, or know where I can look to find this out?

queeq
Maybe they started a beach resort.

Zenwolf
Hasn't been explained yet.

queeq
Who cares?

Lord Lucien
The fans, dammit!


Also, whatever happened to Dexter Jettser? He basically precipitated everything by helping Obi-Wan.

And whatever happened to Captain Panaka? Or Watto? Or that one guy?


It matters, for some reason.

jmoul
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The fans, dammit!


Also, whatever happened to Dexter Jettser? He basically precipitated everything by helping Obi-Wan.

And whatever happened to Captain Panaka? Or Watto? Or that one guy?


It matters, for some reason.

The thing is, those characters you mentioned didn't know anything about the true purpose for the clone army.

On the other hand, the Kaminoans who made the the clone army had to have known that they were practically causing a genocide, and this was all because they wanted a big paycheck.

It just seems that there should have been some kind of retribution for what they did.

Jaeh
According to Legends, they got attacked by the Empire.

According to canon, who the hell knows anymore.

queeq
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The fans, dammit!


Also, whatever happened to Dexter Jettser? He basically precipitated everything by helping Obi-Wan.

And whatever happened to Captain Panaka? Or Watto? Or that one guy?


It matters, for some reason.

laughing

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by jmoul
The thing is, those characters you mentioned didn't know anything about the true purpose for the clone army.

On the other hand, the Kaminoans who made the the clone army had to have known that they were practically causing a genocide, and this was all because they wanted a big paycheck.

It just seems that there should have been some kind of retribution for what they did. Yeah, it's almost like the prequels... are really badly written or something...


But that's can't be right...

queeq
Noooo.... impossible. George Lucas wrote those.

jmoul
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, it's almost like the prequels... are really badly written or something...


But that's can't be right...

Three words that will give everybody nightmares: Jar Jar Binks.

Beniboybling
Sheesh are there any topics of discussion on these boards you guys deem worthy?

Sometimes I wonder why you bother coming here. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Anyway I'd actually like to know the answer to this question, my guess is they either became comfortable allies of the Empire or were invaded and had all their toys taken away. Maybe it will get a feature in the comic series or something.

I'd be interested to know to what extent they saw the whole thing coming, the top brass at least seemed aware of the Grand Plan.

queeq
But why do you want to know? It's like asking where the tool went that Luke used to pry the restraining but from R2. The Kaminoans were no more than a tooling creating the clones for the Republic. The Republic transformed into the Empire and ordered the clones as long as they needed them.

They were a mere supplier, not a race that faced extinction or was a major player in the Clone Wars... They were just a tool. So what happened to them is hardly interesting.

Beniboybling
Not seeing why you have to be a "major player" to be interesting, Star Wars would be a lot less interesting if they didn't elaborate on the small stuff, it gives the lore depth.

queeq
Well, yeah... but there must be something to the small stuff. Kaminoans are mere tools... Do you think a hammer is interesting to elaborate on?

Beniboybling
Considering that the Kaminoans are a sentient civilisation, one with an autonomous agenda, and capable of all kinds of cloning operations, I'd say there is a lot more too them than there is to a hammer. And TCW's Order 66 arc proves they have narrative potential.

NewLanceWindu
I agree with Beniboy, there IS more story there that I would like to see explored. Novel or comic will suffice.

Lord Lucien
This is what the EU was for. And the majority of the EU was silly, shoddily pieced together fan fiction/service. If it matters that much to you, go study Legends. As per the new canon, they were just a one-movie plot device to facilitate the awful story. Just like Dexter Jettser, just like Captain Panaka, just like the Imperial officer who said "Hold your fire, there's no lifeforms."

They're neither interesting, nor important characters. They just had a small, simple role to play. They have an expanded existence in the Expanded Universe, so go consult the EU.

queeq
Small and simple role... plus.... nobody seems to know where they are at? So if they are so disjointed from the universe, maybe tales of catching flying whales is about as exciting as it could get.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is what the EU was for. And the majority of the EU was silly, shoddily pieced together fan fiction/service. If it matters that much to you, go study Legends. As per the new canon, they were just a one-movie plot device to facilitate the awful story. Just like Dexter Jettser, just like Captain Panaka, just like the Imperial officer who said "Hold your fire, there's no lifeforms."

They're neither interesting, nor important characters. They just had a small, simple role to play. They have an expanded existence in the Expanded Universe, so go consult the EU. Right I get it, the EU is shit, the Prequels are shit and the new Legends/Canon dichotomy is given you a platform to spew your hate. smileOriginally posted by queeq
Small and simple role... plus.... nobody seems to know where they are at? So if they are so disjointed from the universe, maybe tales of catching flying whales is about as exciting as it could get. Canon is pretty young at this point so I wouldn't say that.

Regardless a story is as good as you can make it, if the Kaminoans start cloning again it could make for some interesting plots.

FreshestSlice
Yeah, I don't see how wondering what happened to an entire planet that created the basis of two movies and a tv show is unfounded myself, either.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right I get it, the EU is shit, the Prequels are shit and the new Legends/Canon dichotomy is given you a platform to spew your hate. smileCanon is pretty young at this point so I wouldn't say that. I don't hate the prequels. I hate Nazis, and rapists. But I don't hate the prequels. Hating films is stupid. Mocking them when they suck balls, though...

And don't ignore the point that, despite the Kaminoans pivotal role in the trilogy's story, there's not much to them. And pivotal doesn't equate to worthwhile---if it did, then yeah, Dexter Jettser would be worthwhile. The only interesting thing about them is that they made the clones. Once that mystery was solved, wrap it up, call it a day for Kamino. Given that there's an entire galaxy to explore in the new canon, we don't need to keep revisiting the same places and things all the time. The Kaminoans are cloners, they made the clones. That's it. The Ewoks are bears, they're adorable savages, that's it. We don't need follow up material on the Ewoks. Or Kamino.

If under Disney they're gonna expand the galaxy anew, let's see some new worlds and races with new stories.

Beniboybling
Been mocking them for over a decade now, getting a bit old. smile

And I addressed that point in my response to queeq, there is a lot more too them than there is to Dexter Jettser, who is like one guy, we are taking an entire civilisation who played an infinitely more pivotal role than he did, and are the only known cloners currently in Canon.

I can understand why you'd rather see new material, but the problem I find with fashioning a new world/species etc. for a story and then casting it aside when it's serve its purpose (which is too often done) , is that said addition to canon remains shallow and forgettable.

You talk of Ewok's being of no interest, and yet if Tatooine had never been revisited after it served it's story purposes, it would never have become interesting. Because who cares about Jawas and Tusken Raiders?

Likewise nobody would've have cared about Dantooine or Sullust, who were nothing but throwaway names in the Original Trilogy, if they hadn't been expanded upon. It gives them continuity and it gives them depth, and if the plethora of seemingly minor plot points in the Star Wars universe had never been revisited we'd be dealing with a very superficial galaxy.

Heck let's look at some more relevant examples, like half the new planets that appeared in TFA, bar Jakku I can't even remember their names can you? But who cares right? They served their narrative purpose, I'm happy to forget about them.

And frankly it goes to show that writing off anything as trivial, simple and uninteresting is to have a lack of imagination. Even Dexter Jettser could be made into a compelling character if say, he turns out to be a retired bounty hunter with a history of four armed badassery.

(Which btw is a story I would read. thumb up )

Zenwolf
Beni, Dexter being a former 4 armed bounty hunter, could totally get into that. But yeah, I agree. The expansion of the SWU in Legends, made it all the more interesting, rather then just throwing stuff away as for the most part, you could find info and stuff on just about everything.

Sure there were a few things not explained, but you pretty much had everything else. So I hope the new canon does the same.

jmoul
It's not only that Kamino was a highly advanced civilization of cloners, when they programmed Order 66 into the clones, they had to have known what they were doing. Otherwise, they'd have been unable to make the programming in the clones. If that's the case, they knew that they were paving the way for the eradication of the galaxy's peace keepers, but they went with lining their wallets.

FreshestSlice
That implies there was something inherently wrong with Order 66, which isn't true.

Lord Lucien
Uh-oh, we're getting into block posts now, this doesn't look promising. Imma split it up a bit.

EDIT: I type how I speak, which is why this is so long. I don't speak in quotation blocks though, so bear with me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Been mocking them for over a decade now, getting a bit old. smile And yet we keep doing it. Their awfulness has some staying power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I addressed that point in my response to queeq, there is a lot more too them than there is to Dexter Jettser, who is like one guy, we are taking an entire civilisation who played an infinitely more pivotal role than he did, and are the only known cloners currently in Canon. Again, pivotal, but not much else. Dex was pivotal.

The Kaminoans are one-shot plot devices. There's a mystery at first about finding them, but that's a Sith mystery, and it gets solved (kinda). Once they're found, they're open books. "We're cloners, we made clones for the Republic at the behest of the Jedi. Hello there Jedi, come look at your army. Here's the bounty hunter training them, here's where he lives. Go take your army. Bye."

It's not like the Kaminoans are shown to be a small part of a larger world. Like say, a back alley criminal ring. A secret society. A cult of techno-fascists. They're not obscure or secretive, which makes their role straight forward and easily used up. Dex says they keep to themselves, but once Obi-Wan find them, they're open books. Welcome to our world, we make clones, here's your clones, here's who hired us. No mystery. No enigma. Nothing tantalizingly obscure or hidden. Just flat out, nothing-more-or-less plot device. Not a second of their screen time suggested that there is anything more to them than what is presented. Which is a failing on the film's part. And I can't stand to see the new canon do as the old did and waste time and effort in the EU making up for the PTs lack of substance.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
I can understand why you'd rather see new material, but the problem I find with fashioning a new world/species etc. for a story and then casting it aside when it's serve its purpose (which is too often done) , is that said addition to canon remains shallow and forgettable. If you start off shallow and forgettable, you're already doing something wrong.

I'm not in favour of just casting something aside. Don't misread me. I'm in favour of letting simple, one-off, plot devices that didn't have any depth or character or personality in the first place, stay where they are. I'm totally cool with Kamino getting a blurb in an encyclopedia, or being a map setting like in Battlefront 2 (which also expanded upon its position under the Empire, fortuitously). Small, little mini stuff like that is fine. It hand-holds the character/world/item into a larger universe (the Star Wars franchise as a whole) without wasting too much time and effort bringing substance and weight to something that never had it (and, strictly in Kamino's sense for AotC, never really needed it). I want the stuff that felt like it really meant something--to the main characters, to the audience (emotionally, not 10-year old "aw so cool"y)--to get the expansion treatment.


Like, I am NOT in favour of Slave I getting that treatment, no matter how cool it looked or how important it was for Boba Fett to drive it around advancing the plot. Or the Millennium Falcon. I know these are objects, not people, but they're far more memorable than the Kaminoans.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You talk of Ewok's being of no interest, and yet if Tatooine had never been revisited after it served it's story purposes, it would never have become interesting. Because who cares about Jawas and Tusken Raiders? Not me. I am f*cking sick of Tatooine. It was in 5 of the OT/PT films. It's very first appearance it gets described by Luke as the farthest place from the bright centre of the universe. It's backwater. It's poor. It's do-nothing. It's worthless. But it just. Keeps. Showing. Up. Because everybody knows it from the films, it gets to show up in 100 different games and novels and comics. Tatooine, and Jawas, and Tusken Raiders overstayed their welcome long ago. And Tatooine had alot more going on (film-wise) than Kamino


As for Ewoks... again, an encyclopedia entry is fine. I don't need to find out what became of the little bears who shot arrows at Stormtroopers. They won. They celebrated. They feasted on the dead of their fallen enemy. Case closed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Likewise nobody would've have cared about Dantooine or Sullust, who were nothing but throwaway names in the Original Trilogy, if they hadn't been expanded upon. It gives them continuity and it gives them depth, and if the plethora of seemingly minor plot points in the Star Wars universe had never been revisited we'd be dealing with a very superficial galaxy. Which is fine. These places were neither seen, described, explored, or made significant in any other way in the films besides being mentioned. They had no on-screen role to play whatsoever aside from having syllables. That leaves plenty of room for aggressive expansion.

Kamino, as I just went on about at length, served it's full purpose. It's potential was fully realized (sad, I know). There's nothing left to explore. Like I said, blurbs. Or one-off references. Giving very little for something that was very little.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Heck let's look at some more relevant examples, like half the new planets that appeared in TFA, bar Jakku I can't even remember their names can you? But who cares right? They served their narrative purpose, I'm happy to forget about them. So barring Jakku... the world Maz Kanata is on? We get to see her little outpost. It hosts beings from all over the galaxy and is run by a 1000 year old sage. That's some mystery there. Some story-telling potential. These seedy people have secrets, and allegiances, and emotions, and agendas. There's been established a variety, and character, and substance.

This is all stuff to explore and expand, stuff Kamino lacked. It's not worthy of expansion.

So barring Jakku... which hopefully won't be the new Tatooine and wind up inexplicably tied to every hero and villain and faction EVAH... barring it, and Maz Kanata's place, and the world Luke is on which will surely be expanded in the next film... barring them... is there even any other in TFA?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And frankly it goes to show that writing off anything as trivial, simple and uninteresting is to have a lack of imagination. Even Dexter Jettser could be made into a compelling character if say, he turns out to be a retired bounty hunter with a history of four armed badassery.

(Which btw is a story I would read. thumb up ) No, it's to have a standard for the film your watching and a level of discernment that lets you sift through the contrived crap until you find some gems.

That said, Dexter Jettster has a lot more going for him than the Kaminoans. I know I denigrated for comparisons sake, but at least that CGI monstrosity was portrayed as having a character and personality, with a potentially interesting sounding past that gives him knowledge and sagacity and use. There's a story there waiting to be told. AotC gave us that at least. Dex is worthy of an EU story. Kamino isn't.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't hate the prequels. I hate Nazis, and rapists. But I don't hate the prequels. Hating films is stupid. Mocking them when they suck balls, though...

And don't ignore the point that, despite the Kaminoans pivotal role in the trilogy's story, there's not much to them. And pivotal doesn't equate to worthwhile---if it did, then yeah, Dexter Jettser would be worthwhile. The only interesting thing about them is that they made the clones. Once that mystery was solved, wrap it up, call it a day for Kamino. Given that there's an entire galaxy to explore in the new canon, we don't need to keep revisiting the same places and things all the time. The Kaminoans are cloners, they made the clones. That's it. The Ewoks are bears, they're adorable savages, that's it. We don't need follow up material on the Ewoks. Or Kamino.

If under Disney they're gonna expand the galaxy anew, let's see some new worlds and races with new stories.

Disagreed. We spend a considerable amount of film time on Tatooine and its far less interesting than Kamino.

queeq
I dunno. I didn't see much character to these Kaminoans. They seemed almost devoid of emotion, living in sterile harmony with themselves.

Tatooine (I agree with Lucien, way overused) has much more: struggle to survive on a barren desert planet, various races competing, a backwater hide out for pirates, young people trying to find some adventure (by flying T-16's, bulls eyeing womprats and a desire to leave this backwater planet)... And that's just what I gleaned from ANH... Again: much more than we get from Kamino.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Kaminoans are one-shot plot devices. There's a mystery at first about finding them, but that's a Sith mystery, and it gets solved (kinda). Once they're found, they're open books. "We're cloners, we made clones for the Republic at the behest of the Jedi. Hello there Jedi, come look at your army. Here's the bounty hunter training them, here's where he lives. Go take your army. Bye."

It's not like the Kaminoans are shown to be a small part of a larger world. Like say, a back alley criminal ring. A secret society. A cult of techno-fascists. They're not obscure or secretive, which makes their role straight forward and easily used up. Dex says they keep to themselves, but once Obi-Wan find them, they're open books. Welcome to our world, we make clones, here's your clones, here's who hired us. No mystery. No enigma. Nothing tantalizingly obscure or hidden. Just flat out, nothing-more-or-less plot device. Not a second of their screen time suggested that there is anything more to them than what is presented. Which is a failing on the film's part. And I can't stand to see the new canon do as the old did and waste time and effort in the EU making up for the PTs lack of substance.It's funny because a cult of techno fascists is kind of exactly what they are...

Nor am I seeing why one must be "mysterious" to be interesting. There is no mystery behind Darth Vader once you've seen the main films, and yet he's still a compelling character worthy of expansion in comics, novels, future films etc.

I personally, found them to be quite compelling, as a cold, superior and calculating cult of indeed techno fascists who I'd imagine are capable of much more than creating Jango Fett babies.

And Kamino is one of my favourite planets from the movies as far as the aesthetic is concerned. And as I said, I feel TCW's Order 66 arc demonstrates they have narrative potential, even if only as a backdrop and support characters.

So yes, I would very much like to know what they are up too.Not really, fact is flat characters and objects exist. Like Darth Maul, Boba Fett, the countless unnamed Jedi who appeared in the Prequels, or indeed the Slave I. That doesn't mean they can't be compelling, or have the potential to acquire depth through expanded storytelling.Minor plot points are never going to be emotionally meaningful to the audience or the characters, they are not supposed to be. "Aw so cool" again is about as far as Darth Maul or Boba Fett ever got, and yet upon being expanded on they acquired that depth.

Story makes characters and settings meaningful. And I see no reason why X can't aquire weight through story simply because it didn't have it in its first appearance.Admittedly Tatooine's lack of importance doesn't justify its reoccurence, but it still made for a lot of good stories.And if they had been Wookiees instead?

Heck we saw the Wookiee planet in PT, no need to revisit that uninteresting planet right? Next please.As does one appearance, in one movie, you can't possibly believe that's enough to do justice to a world.Its really not.Fact is though we don't know anything about this planet, or the people on it, so it has no depth, it is shallow. And indeed forgettable, since neither you nor me can remember its name. And if its never expanded upon, I will forget about it, that doesn't mean it was a bad plot point, or has no narrative potential.
Yeah that planet we saw for 5 seconds before it got blew up.

queeq
We don't know much about Kamino either. Only that there's water and a clone factory.

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Disagreed. We spend a considerable amount of film time on Tatooine and its far less interesting than Kamino.

confused

The cantina scene is one of the best scenes in the entire saga.

Certainly more interesting than anything on Kamino (or anything in AotC).

Sith Master X
Beniboybling....that entire last post....cool I couldn't have summed any of that up better if I tried.

Refreshing to see honestly.

Also, I loved Kamino too. Atmosphere and design alone, it was probably my favorite part of AOTC. At least we got something different here instead of a Tatooine rip off, death star rip off, Hoth rip off etc.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's funny because a cult of techno fascists is kind of exactly what they are... How? Don't get me wrong, I genuinely don't care "what they are", but I don't see how they fit that term.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor am I seeing why one must be "mysterious" to be interesting. There is no mystery behind Darth Vader once you've seen the main films, and yet he's still a compelling character worthy of expansion in comics, novels, future films etc. You don't have to be mysterious, I used that description as an example given Kamino is introduced via mystery. If that mystery had been expanded on or dug deeper (concomitant with good screenwriting/dialogue etc. etc.) then Kamino as a setting and scene could have been worthy of further exploration or use in other films or media. My point was that Kamino was set-up as a mystery, solved, then discarded by the very films themselves. Mystery dart--mystery planet--planet found--clones discovered--assassin found--assassin followed--clones used--war begins.

Established as a mystery, mystery solved, provides the eponymous clones for the clone wars, and nothing else about them is set up or established or hinted at. This is what I mean by having no substance or depth. One-dimensional plot devices unworthy of anything more than future sound bites or blurbs. Let the creative efforts and juices of the writers and producers go to something new and/or worthwhile, not a now 13-year old, one-dimensional, sterile, CGI backdrop of a plot device.



I'll refer back to this summary a few times whenever a tautology looms.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I personally, found them to be quite compelling, as a cold, superior and calculating cult of indeed techno fascists who I'd imagine are capable of much more than creating Jango Fett babies. I'm not gonna rewatch the scene again to double check, but didn't the lead cloner comment that the Fett clones were their "finest creation"? That's kind of a meh, narrative/story-wise. I don't care to see their doubtless compelling journey to becoming Clone Masters ("sequence sequence gotta sequence 'em all!"wink and I'm even less interested to know what fantastic role they played under the Empire. They obviously had nothing to do with the OT and weren't mentioned much beyond Battlefront 2, so the old canon already has nothing for them. And unless you want an ass-pulled contrivance that inserts them into something important long after the fact (for example, see IG-88's retarded story about his controlling the Second Death Star) --and I hope you don't want that-- then anything created for them is going to be largely ignored or written purely for the sake of having something to appeal to the minority of fans who care enough about whatever backstory or lore they can get their hands on to pay for whatever media it's stuffed in to.

And I'm arguing that that if that's going to happen, keep it for the illustrated encyclopedias, or a blurb in a comic, or the glossary of terms in a video-game's menu, or anywhere that the rest of the producers of the main franchise (namely, the films) can safely ignore the shit out of it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Kamino is one of my favourite planets from the movies as far as the aesthetic is concerned. And as I said, I feel TCW's Order 66 arc demonstrates they have narrative potential, even if only as a backdrop and support characters. I'll give you that: go nuts with whatever on the TV shows. Those are Lucas' babies and I'm hoping once Rebels runs out of fumes they'll retire that style for good. Took me months to slog through 5 seasons of TCW, I couldn't stand most of it. By-the-numbers kids television for the Family channel. Team Rocket blasting off again crap. Stick Kamino there, I'm cool with that. I just hope the new movie universe they're making forgets about its content.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So yes, I would very much like to know what they are up too.Not really, fact is flat characters and objects exist. Like Darth Maul, Boba Fett, the countless unnamed Jedi who appeared in the Prequels, or indeed the Slave I. That doesn't mean they can't be compelling, or have the potential to acquire depth through expanded storytelling.

Minor plot points are never going to be emotionally meaningful to the audience or the characters, they are not supposed to be. "Aw so cool" again is about as far as Darth Maul or Boba Fett ever got, and yet upon being expanded on they acquired that depth. The weird thing about the PT is that it made for otherwise good EU (at least the novels). The characters were so dead and soulless and undeveloped on-screen that there was literally everywhere to go with them in print. The exact opposite was true for the OT.

And I'll say it, and I always feel I'm in the minority for it: Darth Maul is cool looking. He's not interesting. Boba Fett is cool looking. He's not interesting. As soon as they gave the old college try to Fett and Maul... ugh. Maul got The Clone Wars... f*ck was that bad. And Fett got turned in to a Kiwi clone child with an irritating role in the worst prequel. Point is, not every cool looking character or place or concept NEEDS expansion, or explanation, or an origin story. Some things can stay mysterious, or cool looking, or underplayed. It can help make them timeless.


Kamino certainly is none of that, though. See summary paragraph up above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Admittedly Tatooine's lack of importance doesn't justify its reoccurence, but it still made for a lot of good stories. Good stories, yes (sometimes), but unnecessary. It didn't NEED to be Tatooine, it was just picked for audience recognition. And probably also ease of creation--it's alot simpler to recycle or reuse prior material on a place already created than it is to create a whole new place. The same holds true with characters. Ever read the Young Jedi Knight series? It was horrendously guilty of that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And if they had been Wookiees instead?

Heck we saw the Wookiee planet in PT, no need to revisit that uninteresting planet right? Next please. Well we already had seen and visited Kashyyyk as early as 1978 with the Star Wars Holiday Special. And it appeared a bunch more times in games, novels, and comics prior to Revenge of the Sith. So moot point.

But had that been it's very first appearance? Yeah, next please. Aside from simply establishing it has Chewbacca's homeworld and showing us more Wookiees, all the films gave to us was its existence and setting as a battle. Then it ended. That's not interesting. That doesn't make me ask "What else?" Hell, NOT seeing the planet (or other Wookiees) makes me more curious about it than what they actually showed us. It's why I'm also against a young Yoda origins movie, where we see his whole race living together in peace and harmony until some early Sith no doubt kills everyone except Yoda and his childhood friend Yaddle. Seriously, $10 it'll fall somewhat along those lines.


"Less is more."
"Brevity is the soul of wit."


We don't need to see and be shown and be told EVERYTHING. Leave something to the imagination. To bring it full circle--Kamino left nothing to the imagination. Blew its whole wad in like two scenes. See summary paragraph up above for further details.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As does one appearance, in one movie, you can't possibly believe that's enough to do justice to a world.

Its really not. See above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fact is though we don't know anything about this planet, or the people on it, so it has no depth, it is shallow. And indeed forgettable, since neither you nor me can remember its name. And if its never expanded upon, I will forget about it, that doesn't mean it was a bad plot point, or has no narrative potential. You're right. I don't give two f*cks about the planet itself. I care about its colourful cast of denizens who frequent Maz Kanata's bar. They look interesting and cool and mysterious--but that doesn't mean I must have or demand all their backstories or fates. Leave some tantalizing mystery. Or dole out some easter eggs or tidbits at a time, that'd be fun. But the planet? Don't care. See above posts about "Less is more".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah that planet we saw for 5 seconds before it got blew up. Ah. The Hosnian system. New Republic capital, supported the Resistance. Got blowed up. S'all I need from it.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Disagreed. We spend a considerable amount of film time on Tatooine and its far less interesting than Kamino. Luke finding his home destroyed, the Jedi Mind Trick scene, the entire Cantina scene, the blasting out of Mos Eisley, the entire act in Jabba's palace and sail barge... any one of these alone is head and shoulders more interesting, more entertaining, more memorable, more emotionally impacting, and more worth revisiting than all the Kamino scenes put together.

Jaeh
...I get why fans would want to learn about Kamino: for the reason that is was in the story. I get why it's also kind of a "just for setting and not for expansion" sort of place- just so the clones will have some sort of random backstory. If you look at only canon, then it's a throwaway world.

But see I thought that was why (before EU) legends exist(s)ed, to expand on the throwaway random crap in the stories. To expand upon ideas. People do it all the time in fanfics and crap, so the interest makes sense.

I don't understand what's there to discuss about the existence of it. It's a throwaway world, but the one glimpse in it is interesting. Canon didn't explore it cos throwaway. EU did because questions like this were asked by fans.

Seriously though, as I said before, Kamino has a backstory etc. Regarding how the Empire supposedly crushed the rebellion that cropped up there. I think it's from SW BF. It's legends now.

Canon offers no explanation so far, unless Rebels suddenly explores it.

queeq
Explanation bites...

And just because something is in the movie, doesn't make it interesting to explore further. Like the poodoo JarJar steps in. That was in the story, you want to learn more about it? You won;'t learn much more that that it's poodoo, just there's nothing else to learn about Kamino.

On other words: What Lucien said.

Lord Lucien
I used to be that guy who got really into the entire franchise around when I first registered here, and would peruse Wookieepedia articles for the sheer joy of learning more about the universe they created. Like I said above, the PT gave to the EU a LOT of material to expand on and play with, so that was a big reason why I used to defend the PT. But after getting older, and appreciating the trivial, more kid-oriented products less and less (like the Clone Wars or Rebels, or some of the games), and appreciating the emotional, character-driven weight of stories more and more, my criteria shifted.


I'm not against wanting to know more about the in-universe backstories and expansions-- that's part of the fun for a lot of people. I just prefer that when that expansion gets created, it's done with a sense of, uh... priority. Throwing money and creative efforts behind something like Kamino is, to me, something that's pretty low on the list, for all the reasons I said yesterday. In the scheme of things, it's something that can wait. In the meantime, there's still the Legends storyline to follow.

queeq
There is... and to be discussed in the thread formerly known as EU.

And I agree with Lucien on this. There is nothing on Kamino that strikes me as interesting. IT's a planet run by very sterile, harmonious creatures. There doesn't seem to be the slightest form of conflict there. Or reason to believe there is one. Even the clones, though massive in numbers, look very docile and controlled.
In other words: pretty pictures don't make interesting storytelling material.

relentless1
this guy lord lucian just thinks he's king shit eh? if you don't like the prequels why do you come to the prequel page just to talk shit? As it happens several elements of that trilogy were done very well and the backstory and lore to those three films eclipses that of the OT, most were hooked to the OT by the story of the Jedi and the Force and the PT gave us that.

I figure you don't have anybody to talk to in real life so you come on here and act high and mighty about star wars to get your jollies. If you don't like these movies then cool, thats your thing. Don't come on here and act superior to those that do...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by relentless1
this guy lord lucian just thinks he's king shit eh? if you don't like the prequels why do you come to the prequel page just to talk shit? As it happens several elements of that trilogy were done very well and the backstory and lore to those three films eclipses that of the OT, most were hooked to the OT by the story of the Jedi and the Force and the PT gave us that.

I figure you don't have anybody to talk to in real life so you come on here and act high and mighty about star wars to get your jollies. If you don't like these movies then cool, thats your thing. Don't come on here and act superior to those that do... A.) Cuz this is the prequel forum, it's not reserved for adoration--it's also for criticism.

B.) No elements were done very well. Or well. Or even okay. Except the music. Disagree? Give me your reasons.

C.) Your lack of self-awareness is kinda cute. Watch this: "If you like these movies then cool, that's your thing. Don't come here and act superior to those that don't..."

D.) U mad, bro? Don't like people ripping into things you like? Learn to take your fandom's criticism like a grown-up and actually counter someone's argument with an argument of your own. If you can't defend the things you think are so great, then take a step back, reassess why you like them, and try again later. I promise I'll respond if you learn to argue like a civilized adult, instead of an entitled brat.

relentless1
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A.) Cuz this is the prequel forum, it's not reserved for adoration--it's also for criticism.

B.) No elements were done very well. Or well. Or even okay. Except the music. Disagree? Give me your reasons.

C.) Your lack of self-awareness is kinda cute. Watch this: "If you like these movies then cool, that's your thing. Don't come here and act superior to those that don't..."

D.) U mad, bro? Don't like people ripping into things you like? Learn to take your fandom's criticism like a grown-up and actually counter someone's argument with an argument of your own. If you can't defend the things you think are so great, then take a step back, reassess why you like them, and try again later. I promise I'll respond if you learn to argue like a civilized adult, instead of an entitled brat.

lol says the guy who comes here to hate...youre not even a real star wars fan... you can't acknowledge the flaw within your precious OT and you deny yourself the good things about the PT because you are a petulant child who didn't get what he wanted out of them so you hate continuously to the point that nobody cares...you don't like the prequels, I think everybody here knows that. You are like that annoying guy that butts into a conversation where nobody wanted you in the first place.

- The Emperors rise to power, specifically Ian McDiarmids acting was gold

- The lightsaber battles were head and shoulders above the slow plodding pace we got in the originals

- The Jedi in their prime was great, we had waited for years to see the Knights of the Old Republic ever since old Ben told us about the Jedi in ANH

- The beautiful worlds that were on display for us; from Utapau to Naboo the prequels expanded the visual scope of the Star Wars universe much more than the OT ever did

- Ewan MacGregor as Obi Wan was sublime. he's the one I think of whenever I thin of Obi Wan Kenobi now, not old man Guieness who didn't even like the movie he was in.

- Natalie Portman is definitely easy on the eyes and she was quite the cutie in that all white outfit in ATOC

- Darth Maul, even though he was criminally underused he was a great character all the same.

theres a lot wrong with the Prequels too for sure, but I can't stand people like you who just blindly hate on things. Grow up and maybe try to have a civilized discussion instead of barging into threads and looking down on things you clearly have no appreciation for.

queeq
Originally posted by relentless1
lol says the guy who comes here to hate...youre not even a real star wars fan...

You don't determine who's a fan or not. Or how fans should behave. So stop that nonsense.

Originally posted by relentless1

- The Emperors rise to power, specifically Ian McDiarmids acting was gold

Agreed.

Originally posted by relentless1
- The lightsaber battles were head and shoulders above the slow plodding pace we got in the originals

To me they were just eye candy. Emotionless battles that often didn't make any sense or it was unclear what it was about. And in case of the OB1-Anakin fight: over the top ridiculous and overlong.

Originally posted by relentless1
- The Jedi in their prime was great, we had waited for years to see the Knights of the Old Republic ever since old Ben told us about the Jedi in ANH


This I don't get. All I see is a bunch of boring old men sitting around talking talking talking and not seeing what's going on under their very roof. How's that 'in their prime'?

And if you see how easily Palpy wiped out three Jedi nodding off during the arrest of a Sith Lord... I think they were far beyond their prime.

Originally posted by relentless1

- The beautiful worlds that were on display for us; from Utapau to Naboo the prequels expanded the visual scope of the Star Wars universe much more than the OT ever did

Sterile, CGI worlds where we run into the same people all the time.

Originally posted by relentless1

- Ewan MacGregor as Obi Wan was sublime. he's the one I think of whenever I thin of Obi Wan Kenobi now, not old man Guieness who didn't even like the movie he was in.

- Natalie Portman is definitely easy on the eyes and she was quite the cutie in that all white outfit in ATOC



McGregor did great work with mediocre material.

Natalie looks nice but she kinda boring. And she breaks character. It makes no sense at all why she of all people would fall in love with Anakin.

Originally posted by relentless1

- Darth Maul, even though he was criminally underused he was a great character all the same.

He didn't have much character. He looks cool, but he's just an attack dog. Nothing more, nothing less.

relentless1
at least you have a reasonable outlook and can discuss the films intelligently rather than spew blanket hate.

Personally I would have had the main story in AOTC be ep 1 so that the Clone Wars could be explored over two movies instead of a little bit of one.

Lord Lucien
Out of curiosity, when you read my posts, are you reading it in like a... an angry, impatient voice? Like someone foaming with vitriol? That might explain why you keep using the word "hate". Would help if I told you to read my posts in a smooth, calm, southern drawl?


Originally posted by relentless1
lol says the guy who comes here to hate...youre not even a real star wars fan... So to "be a real Star Wars fan" you have to unconditionally love everything? Criticism and dislike can't be tolerated, only adoration? I've spent far too many posts on this site over the last 10+ years to be told I'm not a fan of the franchise.

Originally posted by relentless1
you can't acknowledge the flaw within your precious OT I have no clue why you said this or what even prompted it in the first place.

Originally posted by relentless1
and you deny yourself the good things about the PT Since when? I've said a few times now in the recent threads that I enjoy the music. I have the RotS soundtrack on my iPod and not a single track from the OT.


But... I actually can't think of anything else in the PT I would call "good". Can't deny myself something if it doesn't exist.


Originally posted by relentless1
because you are a petulant child who didn't get what he wanted out of them so you hate continuously to the point that nobody cares...you don't like the prequels, I think everybody here knows that. You are like that annoying guy that butts into a conversation where nobody wanted you in the first place. Pot to the kettle, sir.



Originally posted by relentless1
- The Emperors rise to power, specifically Ian McDiarmids acting was goldExplain why. I'm not denying your emotional response to it, I just want to hear your explanation.

Originally posted by relentless1
- The lightsaber battles were head and shoulders above the slow plodding pace we got in the originalsThey were certainly faster and prettier, but that doesn't make them more meaningful. Which is what I care about.

Originally posted by relentless1
- The Jedi in their prime was great, we had waited for years to see the Knights of the Old Republic ever since old Ben told us about the Jedi in ANHWhat was so great about them? Aside from their fancier swordplay and tightly choreographed stunts, what was so great? All I saw was a bunch of monotoned guys in robes either sitting down alot, walking somewhere, getting manipulated with absurd amounts of ease, allowing evil to continuously win the day, making foolish decisions, ignore their own advice, and generally being very boring or annoyingly ineffective.


But their swordfights were really something else.

Originally posted by relentless1
- The beautiful worlds that were on display for us; from Utapau to Naboo the prequels expanded the visual scope of the Star Wars universe much more than the OT ever didBeautifully rendered, yes. The computer animators did a fine job. It's a shame their work was overshadowed by the general awfulness of everything else--including the creatively-average setpieces/greenpiece backgrounds the characters actually walked in front of. For something so "beautiful" it looked strikingly fake.

Originally posted by relentless1
- Ewan MacGregor as Obi Wan was sublime. he's the one I think of whenever I thin of Obi Wan Kenobi now, not old man Guieness who didn't even like the movie he was in. You seem to have a fixation on people needing to like the things they talk about or are involved in.

Anyways, Ewan McGregor was very poorly utilized. He's a wonderful actor, but even he couldn't save the Obi-Wan character from the awful script or direction he was given.

Originally posted by relentless1
- Natalie Portman is definitely easy on the eyes and she was quite the cutie in that all white outfit in ATOCAgreed, but what else? No words on her character? Her personality? Or are you describing the Padme portrayal for what it really was: eye candy. Badly written, badly directed, badly acted (not that I fault Portman herself). Just something to look at. What a shame.

Originally posted by relentless1
- Darth Maul, even though he was criminally underused he was a great character all the same. Really? What about his character did you like so much? Now don't tell me about his costume, or his physical appearance, or his lightsaber. Tell me about his character. Regale me with the richness of the scope of the Maul character.

Originally posted by relentless1
theres a lot wrong with the Prequels too for sure, but I can't stand people like you who just blindly hate on things. Grow up and maybe try to have a civilized discussion instead of barging into threads and looking down on things you clearly have no appreciation for. Here, watch this:


there's a few things right with the Prequels too for sure, but I can't stand people like you who just blindly love on things. Grow up and maybe try to have a civilized discussion instead of barging into threads and looking up to things you clearly have an appreciation for



Kind of sounds silly, doesn't it? The redundancy of that last part makes no sense, and your misunderstanding of what it means to go into something "blindly" is probably your weakest selling point (honestly, try looking in the mirror with that one)---given my history here of criticizing the prequels over the years, you would have had to have literally not read what I was actually saying to accuse me of "blindly hating on things." On the contrary, my metaphorical eyes have been well and truly open and scanning every step of the way. But you go ahead and spout whatever imaginative indictment you can think of, because... I understand. I understand that you just want me to love what you love. You need me--and everyone else--to like the things you like. Because if we didn't, if we criticize, or--in your words--hate (it's a strong word, too strong for a fictional franchise, IMO, but I get that it's for emphasis)--the things that you like... why, that's just the same as attacking you yourself. You're just defending yourself, and I understand that. You are, after all, defined by your fandoms.


Was that civilized enough for you, sir? Oh, wait, that was my word to describe you. Good attempt at turning it around though, I almost didn't catch it.

queeq
Is this crazy feud still happening?

Lord Lucien
Yup. It's been going on for decades.

queeq
Okay... carry on. wink

relentless1
yaya, its great to have your own opinion and all, but you go out of your way to seem as if youre some higher educated fan of star wars and anybody with the opinion in favour of the PT is beneath you. Just look at your comments in the best star wars film discussion. Your opinions dripping with a holier than thou attitude acting as if your way is the only way to see it. ESB was OK, but in my opinion and clearly a few others it isn't the best of the series. Bottom line is you have a right to your opinion sure, but youd come across a lot better if you weren't a smarmy dick about it.

queeq
Look, relentless... if you start accusing people of an attitude you don't like, better make sure you don't do the same thing.

"some higher educated fan of Star Wars"? "Holier than thou attitude"?

Look at act you wrote:

Originally posted by relentless1
lol says the guy who comes here to hate...youre not even a real star wars fan...


So better pipe down the allegations. If you can't take a debate, just ignore what Lucien says.

relentless1
well its true isn't it? the films are meant to be a whole story...if you don't like part of the story then how can you really be a fan of said story??

queeq
The was the OT first. And millions, like me and Lucien, fell in love with that. And we're great fans of that.

Then the PT came... and that was kinda meh... Does that mean by your logic, that we suddenly start disliking the OT?

Like Lucien said, does being a fan mean you have to switch off your brain and love everything this business franchise feeds you?

It's like with people. You can love someone and yet, not like EVERYTHING about them. Does that mean you don't love them?

Your line of thinking is faulty. And then there is your own 'holier than thou' attitude while accusing others of that attitude. Sorry, dude, your contribution to this debate is a tad below par.

relentless1
everybody inclined to like what they want but its a bit tiring seeing somebody lord it over everyone else they think their opinion is the right one and he's kinda smarmy about it too, as if youre some sort of retard for liking the PT; just rubs me the wrong way is all.

queeq
Well, here's the thing. You do that too. You certainly attack Lucien for not agreeing with you.

Face it, dude, that's what we do here. We discuss things. Agreeing about everything is not our goal.

All I care about is that it's done in a civilised way.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by relentless1
yaya, its great to have your own opinion and all, but you go out of your way to seem as if youre some higher educated fan of star wars and anybody with the opinion in favour of the PT is beneath you. Just look at your comments in the best star wars film discussion. Your opinions dripping with a holier than thou attitude acting as if your way is the only way to see it. ESB was OK, but in my opinion and clearly a few others it isn't the best of the series. Bottom line is you have a right to your opinion sure, but youd come across a lot better if you weren't a smarmy dick about it. If that's what you're reading in my posts, that's on you. I'm not implying any sort of superiority on my part. I certainly have a different opinion than some others, and I'll go out of my way to explain and defend that position (at length, as I'm sure you've noticed), but don't mistake that for arrogance or elitism. That's the problem with an entirely written argument online; the other person can read emotion or attitude where you've intended none at all. You're inferring something that isn't there. Even worse, you're letting that be the driving force behind your own responses.


If you're hearing (reading) an attitude in my (entirely text-based) voice, then leave open the possibility that you're interpreting it incorrectly. More importantly, don't let your feelings toward someone else blind your approach to the content of what they're saying. Separate the (inferred) emotion and the substance itself. You'll come to conclusions and resolutions alot quicker and smoother that way.

relentless1
Maybe it's just that pic of Underwood that influenced me wink

queeq
He has that effect on people. Just don't get near any subway trains in the near future.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by queeq
He has that effect on people. Just don't get near any subway trains in the near future. https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/frank-underwood-gif.gif

queeq
laughing out loud

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If that's what you're reading in my posts, that's on you. I'm not implying any sort of superiority on my part. I certainly have a different opinion than some others, and I'll go out of my way to explain and defend that position (at length, as I'm sure you've noticed), but don't mistake that for arrogance or elitism. That's the problem with an entirely written argument online; the other person can read emotion or attitude where you've intended none at all. You're inferring something that isn't there. Even worse, you're letting that be the driving force behind your own responses.


If you're hearing (reading) an attitude in my (entirely text-based) voice, then leave open the possibility that you're interpreting it incorrectly. More importantly, don't let your feelings toward someone else blind your approach to the content of what they're saying. Separate the (inferred) emotion and the substance itself. You'll come to conclusions and resolutions alot quicker and smoother that way.

In all honesty, Lucien, you do come across like that, and you can't always blame others. It would be appreciated if you moderated your tone.

Lord Lucien
Fair enough. Intentions never matter, presentation is all that counts.

queeq
Spoken like a true Underwood.

Lord Lucien
Welcome to the internet.

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