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End of series humans, vs Freeza saga Freeza. Starts at form one.

Who wins?

If the answer is humans, they get to fight the next form up, until either they lose ot Freeza is defeated (Limit to Freeza saga.)

If we're talking strictly Z and not including anything from Super or the movies, I actually could see the humans at the very least making it up to his Final Form.

Tien proved himself in the Cell saga by being able to hold off Imperfect Cell with the Tri Beam(albeit not really injure him), that weapon allows him to hit above his weight class, and we know how much he trains so by EOS I imagine him being pretty potent here.

Krillin has been stated to be the strongest human so that alone seals how useful he is here, and his Destructo Disc would definitely be useful, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Frieza lopped in half once more with this EOS guy on the team.

Yamcha.......well.....if you allow me to use filler feats from the anime I can make a case for Yamcha, if not uh.....I mean...he trained for the Android Saga and got stronger and uh...his Wolf Fang Fist is pretty sick...and he was a desert bandit once...so..

It has been stated multiple times that Krillin is the most powerful human/earthling:
http://i.imgur.com/odxa6uP.jpg
*This fact was also confirmed as recently as BoG.


That said, Krillin>Tien>Yamcha. This is important because during the Namek saga, Krillin's highest canon PL was 75,000.

So for Krillin's PL to match base form Freeza, it would've had to increase by ~7x by the end of the saga. To match 2nd form Freeza, his PL would've had to increase by ~15x. To match 3rd form Freeza, his PL would've had to increase by ~30x. To match 4th form Freeza(100%), his PL would've had to increase by ~1,600x.

Krillin isn't a Saiyan; he's human--humans obviously do not receive zenkais and whatnot. Thus, power increases of that magnitude are, frankly, insurmountable. That said, if(that's a big 'IF') Krillin became > 2nd form Freeza by the end of Z, his PL almost certainly never approached the likes of 3rd form Freeza-- 4th form Freeza is completely out of the question. This is important because in DBZ, the number of fighters is inconsequential if they are significantly weaker than their opponent. So if Tien and Yamcha are weaker than Krillin(which they are), then they don't add much at all to this battle.

But as mentioned above: the Tri-Beam and Destructo Disk are the only abilities that *might* be haxx enough to aid the humans. However, Freeza already knows what the Destructo Disks are capable of, so I can only assume he'd just casually dodge them, and/or blast them away.

The Tri-Beam, on the other hand, is questionable for a few reasons:
Yes, it pushed Semi-Perfect Cell down against his will a few times. However, it caused Cell absolutely NO physical damage whatsoever. It being successful also assumes that Freeza will just stand in one place while Tien takes a considerable amount of time to charge/fire it... Which seems unlikely in a forum battle. This also assumes the Tri-Beam can beat Freeza's durability even IF it magically ends up striking him... Which seems equally as unlikely to me.

Remember, Freeza is BY FAR the most durable character in the mythos. He survived a planet-busting explosion at ground zero while he was powerless AND chopped in half, ffs. Aside from that, each individual 'chunk' of him was still alive after Trunks' slash-attack(as shown in RoF.) Point being: the Tri-Beam pushing Cell down a few times is not indicative of it being able to significantly/fatally harm Freeza's higher forms, imo. Some here might disagree, but I'd welcome definitive proof to the contrary.

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tl;dr: I believe the team can beat Freeza's base and 2nd form(albeit narrowly.) They might(again, that's a big 'MIGHT') also be able to defeat 3rd form Freeza IF the stars inextricably aligned, and all of their haxxed attacks were successfully delivered... But that is one hell of a longshot as far as I'm concerned. On average, I believe 3rd form Freeza would stomp them.

And as I said above: 4th form Freeza is so far beyond the humans that it's really not even fair to allow him to use that transformation here, imo.

Good points, and I agree their pl is nowhere near his higher forms.

But one huge advantage they have over Freeza, is his inability to sense ki. That's akin to being in a game where everyone else is using a wall hack but you.

I'm thinking the tactic Piccolo and Krillin tried to execute on Nappa might serve, as it WOULD have worked if not for Gohan. Say, an ambush Kikoho or solar flare, into the Destructor Disk.

Of course, cutting him in half probably won't do it... He might be able to fight as half a body. But take off his head....

Krillin has decent aim with the thing, all he needs is a distraction.

Freeza's inability to sense ki might help the team beat his base and 2nd forms. However, it certainly isn't a game changer against his 3rd form, imo--nevermind his 4th...

Frieza is famous for using his speed. They'll probably get blitzed as soon as the bell rung.

^ Agreed.

He's likely to either blitz them right from the onset, or explode them via TK.

Quick question regarding strongest human.

(Even though non canon now) Wasn't Uub technically a human? If so then he would be the strongest human.

Yes, Oob was/is technically human. However, he was also Pure Boo reincarnated, thus was born with a potential that vastly exceeded what any 'normal' human could ever dream of. So I think it's very unfair to compare him to the regular ol' humans in DBZ, but that's just me. /shrug

Krillin is the strongest human who doesn't have an asterisk next to his name.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Quick question regarding strongest human.

(Even though non canon now) Wasn't Uub technically a human? If so then he would be the strongest human. What?

Uub was canon in DBZ?

He's retconned now?

Wtf??

Krillin's disc was able to slice right through 2nd form frieza and out run him for a bit. I don't think they'll get blitzed.

They may not get blitzed by 1st or 2nd form but 3rd and 4th form are much faster.

By the end of the series so are the human's. They had no problem keeping up with the cell fights and tien even blocked a buu blast.

If Tien lands a Kikoho, he'd do some nasty damage. He'd kill Frieza with a barrage like he did against Cell.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
By the end of the series so are the human's. They had no problem keeping up with the cell fights and tien even blocked a buu blast. The ability to see an opponent's movements doesn't mean much in the way of their own power/speed, though. During the Namek saga, for instance, Vegeta was able to see Goku's movements(after his 100G training), but his power/speed were still vastly inferior. There are other examples, but I'm sure you get my point.

The humans might be able to see 3rd or 4th form Freeza's movements, but there's no way they'd react fast enough to counter them. Perception and reaction are two completely different things.

Originally posted by Damborgson
If Tien lands a Kikoho, he'd do some nasty damage. He'd kill Frieza with a barrage like he did against Cell. Even if we assume Tien could successfully deliver a Kikoho w/o Freeza dodging it(which is unlikely), I'm still not convinced it would kill him. Like I mentioned earlier: the ability to push Semi-Perfect Cell down(but cause him no physical harm at all) isn't necessarily indicative of the Kikoho killing a being with Freeza's durability, imo... I'm talking primarily about 4th form Freeza, remember. /shrug

He could dodge it sure, but considering the amount of attacks he ate before just because he knew they couldn't hurt him, I wouldn't be surprised if he just grinned at it then realized it's much more powerful then he first thought.

It didn't damage cell no, but it did scuff him. And the force it would take to slam 2nd form cell would do a number on Freeza.

Now, if Freeza's sole intention is to kill them, KI beams through the chest for all.

Plus if the humans aren't idiots, krillen could just toss a bunch of discs down tien's hole after they get frieza in there

People voting for the team seem to be basing their argument around Frieza not trying to kill them right away. In a forum fight, Frieza has no reason not to go for the kill from jump.

Frieza fighting seriously in his first form would kill everyone here nigh instantly with Death Beams. Game over man. Game over

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Plus if the humans aren't idiots, krillen could just toss a bunch of discs down tien's hole after they get frieza in there If you're assuming the humans aren't fighting like idiots, then you must assume the same for Freeza.

That said, they really shouldn't stand a chance against Freeza's higher forms.

I'm just going off of Frieza's personality, he doesn't fight like an idiot he's just over confident...which are one and the same sometimes.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm just going off of Frieza's personality, he doesn't fight like an idiot he's just over confident...which are one and the same sometimes.

He also goes right for the kill several times. Like when he gored Krillin, blasted Dende or when Goku first showed up and Frieza fired at him. And iirc he on shotted King Vegeta too.

The only reason Frieza wanted to fight was either against the Z-Fighters(whom pissed him off and he wanted to suffer) or against Nail(whom had information he wanted so he was basically resigned to beating it out of him). Other than that Frieza is not one to drag it out. He usually kills quickly

Both krillen and dende were surprise attacks. Characters weaker than the human team have landed blows on frieza.

Originally posted by juggerman
He also goes right for the kill several times. Like when he gored Krillin, blasted Dende or when Goku first showed up and Frieza fired at him. And iirc he on shotted King Vegeta too.

The only reason Frieza wanted to fight was either against the Z-Fighters(whom pissed him off and he wanted to suffer) or against Nail(whom had information he wanted so he was basically resigned to beating it out of him). Other than that Frieza is not one to drag it out. He usually kills quickly

I mean that's great but he's got a lot of showings where he doesn't.

Lol, other than every main character in saga he doesn't usually drag it out. Gohan, Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta were all tortured by Frieza at one point or another. Regardless of reason, he's a sadist and enjoys a nice round of torture. If some die as a result, that doesn't necessarily mean it's his intention just a result of the damage.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Both krillen and dende were surprise attacks. Characters weaker than the human team have landed blows on frieza.

Both were killing blows. Those shots against Goku were intended to be killing blows too. Again Frieza normally doesn't want to sully himself in an actual fight. That why he has henchmen do everything for him even tho he is right there and could easily do it himself. The only time he gets his hands dirty is when he has too or when he wants the opponent to suffer. No reason to hold a grudge against this human team. No reason to make it last


Originally posted by Damborgson
I mean that's great but he's got a lot of showings where he doesn't.

Lol, other than every main character in saga he doesn't usually drag it out. Gohan, Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta were all tortured by Frieza at one point or another. Regardless of reason, he's a sadist and enjoys a nice round of torture. If some die as a result, that doesn't necessarily mean it's his intention just a result of the damage.

Showings against people that have spent days/weeks undermining his plans and pissing him off. And of course, who were much stronger than the human team

Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku are all much more powerful than the humans. Frieza wasn't one shotting these guys because they were close to his power. And again, the Z Fighters spent days and weeks getting Frieza's blood pressure up and they took away his chance at immortality. To act as if he would react the same way in the instance of 3 much weaker guys who didn't royally piss him off as he would against the guys that worked him up so much that he wanted them to suffer is laughable. Frieza has no reason to hate the humans so much and therefore no reason to drag it out and make them suffer. He'd end it quickly and there's nothing they could do about it

Gohwn wasn't stronger when he was a kid.

Krillin at the time couldn't do what Gohan did to form 2 Freeza. And he did better then anyone against form 3 Freeza.

^Exactly

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Gohwn wasn't stronger when he was a kid. Krillin's highest recorded PL during the Namek saga=75,000. Gohan's highest recorded PL during the Namek saga="200,000/?".

The reason they inserted a question mark alongside Gohan's PL rating is because the guide also specifically notes that his PL could increase well beyond 200k in accordance with his rage--a he fact demonstrated against 3rd form Freeza(whose PL was, in all likelihood, over 2,000,000.)

Any way you cut it, Gohan>>>Krillin.

Powerlevels were only ever meant to show how ineffective the bad guys were at measuring stuff. Gero says yamcha is roughly how strong he calculated goku to be not factoring in super saiyan. Yamcha is the weskest human. So krillen and tien have to be stronger than basr goku when he landed on namek. Which is stronger than recoome who was stronger than gohan. To paraphrase "powerlevels are bullsh**

You've got it wrong.

Gero and #19 initially believed Yamcha was Goku, because Yamcha's energy reading at the time was right around what Goku's was during the Saiyan saga. Remember, the Saiyan saga is when Gero's 'intel' on the Z-Fighters ceased--he didn't follow them off-planet. That's why the Androids also believed said energy "exceeded all known human parameters"(even though the readings came from a human):
http://i.imgur.com/odAMUqc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rvCDcMJ.jpg

It wasn't until they physically saw Yamcha that they realized he was not Goku:
http://i.imgur.com/qrUWpVc.jpg


Anywho, even if we factor in the 4x kaio ken multiplier he briefly used against Vegeta, Goku's highest recorded PL during the Saiyan saga=32,000. IOW, Android-era Yamcha had a PL right around the 30k mark.

So gero assumes goku does zero training or improvrment for three years? He still knew about the gravity machine briefs made.

Gero had essentially become a computer. Hard data is what he based his assessments on, not guesstimations.

Plus, we were told that his intel on the Z Fighters stopped at the Saiyan saga. That's why their massive increases in power shocked the hell out of him.

he stopped following them but i'm pretty sure he tracked goku's growth rate. science is all predictions and guesstimations

The androids certainly would have been overkill with Saiyan Saga power levels.

Which makes you wonder what he was thinking with Cell. Way, way more power then he believed necessary, plus uncontrollable.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
he stopped following them but i'm pretty sure he tracked goku's growth rate. science is all predictions and guesstimations

He didn't track Goku after the Saiyan Saga at all. You're really just making things up now.

Originally posted by cdtm
The androids certainly would have been overkill with Saiyan Saga power levels.

Which makes you wonder what he was thinking with Cell. Way, way more power then he believed necessary, plus uncontrollable.

Gero knew Goku would get stronger than he was against Vegeta but he had no idea how much. He created the androids to eclipse not only Goku's known PL but to hopefully dwarf any potential gains as well. He couldn't know what Goku would eventually become so he erred on the side of caution

Gero didn't create Cell; his computer did. And that was 20 some odd years afterwards. I'm guessing it had a lot to do with the Z-Fighters being much stronger than anticipated or just because he wanted to create the ultimate being. Plus I'm sure Cell was supposed to be controllable; Gero's creations just like to act up

Originally posted by juggerman
He didn't track Goku after the Saiyan Saga at all. You're really just making things up now.



Gero knew Goku would get stronger than he was against Vegeta but he had no idea how much. He created the androids to eclipse not only Goku's known PL but to hopefully dwarf any potential gains as well. He couldn't know what Goku would eventually become so he erred on the side of caution

Dude, seriously? I'm not saying he tracked goku in space. I'm saying he tracked goku from his fight against tien to piccolo to raditz to vegeta and assumed if he followed that patern of growth guessed how strong he would be three years later.
You apparently agree with that, yes?

Originally posted by juggerman
Gero knew Goku would get stronger than he was against Vegeta but he had no idea how much. He created the androids to eclipse not only Goku's known PL but to hopefully dwarf any potential gains as well. He couldn't know what Goku would eventually become so he erred on the side of caution. Gero invented the infinite energy reactors, and stuck them inside #16, #17, and #18. The power they had was just a corollary...a side effect...of said tech. However, that power also made the Androids uncontrollable, which is why Gero initially deactivated them and made #19 a far more controllable/docile power-absorbing model.

Originally posted by juggerman
Gero didn't create Cell; his computer did. And that was 20 some odd years afterwards. I'm guessing it had a lot to do with the Z-Fighters being much stronger than anticipated or just because he wanted to create the ultimate being. Plus I'm sure Cell was supposed to be controllable; Gero's creations just like to act up Gero's computer is what created Cell--and it was a fully automated/independent/self-sufficient system that Gero wasn't directly controlling/monitoring.

And unlike the Androids, Cell's data was actually backed with knowledge of beings like Freeza, as well as SSJ transformations... He was still being created when the Z Fighters returned from Namek, so Gero's bug-drones were able to gather cells from the likes of Freeza and Trunks and add them to Cell's collective 'gene-pool'.

But yeah, Gero initially had no idea that Saiyans could transform, and subsequently boost their power(s) by a factor of 50x... That ability is what shocked the hell out of him, and forced him to activate #17 and #18 in a last ditch effort.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Dude, seriously? I'm not saying he tracked goku in space. I'm saying he tracked goku from his fight against tien to piccolo to raditz to vegeta and assumed if he followed that patern of growth guessed how strong he would be three years later.
You apparently agree with that, yes?

I misunderstood what you said. My bad.

And yes he did guess but Goku didn't follow the same rate. Goku's power grew well beyond anything Gero could have predicted while he was away

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
he stopped following them but i'm pretty sure he tracked goku's growth rate. science is all predictions and guesstimations

You're talking out the booty hole with no known facts. We know which Goku he stopped his reading at, him trying to guess what Goku power level was after that is up for you to prove. What does this mean since we have KNOWN facts, Power levels are relevant.

Originally posted by juggerman
I misunderstood what you said. My bad.

And yes he did guess but Goku didn't follow the same rate. Goku's power grew well beyond anything Gero could have predicted while he was away

Where have you been? I wonder why you stopped posting in Dragonball threads.

Originally posted by carver9
Where have you been? I wonder why you stopped posting in Dragonball threads.



Pretty sure this is a DB thread

Originally posted by juggerman
Pretty sure this is a DB thread

It is but I guess it took a bit to get back on your ft from something you seen DBZ wise that you couldn't handle.

Originally posted by carver9
It is but I guess it took a bit to get back on your ft from something you seen DBZ wise that you couldn't handle.





Nope. Just haven't seen DBS yet. Besides a fight between Piccolo and one of Frieza's kin. It wasn't subtitled so I didn't get any story, just Piccolo holding the SBC for like a year and not even landing it.

But I responded to your baiting in the "Who's more durable thread". Surprised you missed it