Darth Vader vs. Darth Maul [SABERS ONLY]

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|King Joker|
This fight is a sabers only match. Canon feats and accolades only.

Vader as of Star Wars Rebels.
Maul as of Son of Dathomir.

Emperordmb
I'd side Vader. Given his speed feats and increased mastery of the Force, as well as more time to perfect his technical skill, he should be on a level sufficient enough for him to beat Dawth Mawl.

Kurk
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'd side Vader. Given his speed feats and increased mastery of the Force, as well as more time to perfect his technical skill, he should be on a level sufficient enough for him to beat Dawth Mawl.

cs_zoltan
Rebels Vader loses, RotJ on the other hand would win.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Rebels Vader loses, RotJ on the other hand would win. Hidalgo says Rebels is Vader's prime.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Vader 8/10

Syndicate
Maul.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Syndicate
Maul. Reasons?

Syndicate
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Reasons?

Comparative in all physical aspects and superior in agility due to Vader's hindered mobility. Should balance out. Skill I'd mark about the same or maybe even favoring Vader if this was his RotJ incarnation and included Legends. As it is Vader doesn't have the skill showings to put him above or debatably even on par with Maul. Vader obviously would take the force edge but since that's not accounted for in this battle.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Hidalgo says Rebels is Vader's prime.

Don't really care what he says.

|King Joker|
Seeing as how he's one of the heads of the story group and pretty much one of the arbiters of canon you should. But whatever. wink

Syndicate
I've got to be honest KJ. I'm not much for unsubstantiated statements either.

Emperordmb
Yeah this guy has made several statements before that make absolutely zero sense.

|King Joker|
So you'd rather take a statement from a novel written decades ago and apply it to today's canon, rather than a current statement from one of the heads of the story group/canon? That makes no sense.

Syndicate
Originally posted by |King Joker|
So you'd rather take a statement from a novel written decades ago and apply it to today's canon, rather than a current statement from one of the heads of the story group/canon? That makes no sense.

Why do we have to use unsubstantiated statements at all?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Syndicate
Why do we have to use unsubstantiated statements at all?

Lmfao.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Syndicate
Why do we have to use unsubstantiated statements at all? Since when does a declaration by one of the head story group guys get ignored simply because people don't like it? He's an authority figure on canon, what he says is worth something.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
U are doing well joker

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
Why do we have to use unsubstantiated statements at all?
That's really only a question you can answer for yourself, tbh.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by |King Joker|
what he says is worth something.

And the canon novel authorized by GL isn't?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And the canon novel authorized by GL isn't?

Uhh...

Originally posted by |King Joker|
So you'd rather take a statement from a novel written decades ago and apply it to today's canon, rather than a current statement from one of the heads of the story group/canon? That makes no sense.

Syndicate
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Since when does a declaration by one of the head story group guys get ignored simply because people don't like it? He's an authority figure on canon, what he says is worth something.

For me, personally? Always. Unless its backed up by evidence I ignore it.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's really only a question you can answer for yourself, tbh.

True enough. Which is why I generally don't.

FreshestSlice
I can see that given the irony you and cz are spewing into this thread right now, like:
Originally posted by Syndicate
For me, personally? Always. Unless its backed up by evidence I ignore it.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up pretty amusing stuff.

Syndicate
I guess it's your right to have such an opinion.

Beniboybling
Is it that big a deal? Hidalgo claiming Vader is in his prime could just have been intended to give the general impression that Vader is around the peak of his powers.

On the other hand it's only logical Vader would improve in skill and power over the course of almost a decade.

cs_zoltan
Yeah. In Rebels Vader is struggling to lift an AT-ST, but post ANH he is Crushing an AT-AT.

Rebels is Vader prime my ass.

Beniboybling
thumb up

|King Joker|
He casually lifted both of the AT-ST's stacked on one another after they fell on his ass, wtf?

FreshestSlice
I like how we can judge effort by comic stills now.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how we can judge effort by comic stills now.

You didn't know?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by |King Joker|
He casually lifted both of the AT-ST's stacked on one another after they fell on his ass, wtf? Casually wouldn't be how I'd describe it.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how we can judge effort by comic stills now. Not really relevant.

|King Joker|
Well he did do it with one hand. It's not like we can see his facial expressions to judge exactly how much effort he put in but if it was very strenuous I think the animation would have reflected that instead of making him seem so nonchalant.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really relevant.
It's actually completely relevant to the statement you agreed with.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Well he did do it with one hand. It's not like we can see his facial expressions to judge exactly how much effort he put in but if it was very strenuous I think the animation would have reflected that instead of making him seem so nonchalant. Brah it took him over ten seconds to lift the things, that is not casual.

And while we can't glean anything from his facial expressions, his crouched stance suggests effort I feel.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's actually completely relevant to the statement you agreed with. Again not really, what's important is the fact that Vader was able to prevent an AT-AT from flattening him (whereas he failed to the fall of two AT-DPs), then proceeded to lift and crush it.

Irrespective of whether that was done with strain (though we can certainly rule out maximum effort as that would have been made explicit) it still strongly implies a far lesser feat would be accomplished with ease. Yet it was not.

This all being besides the point that improvement over a near decade period is simply common sense.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again not really, what's important is the fact that Vader was able to prevent an AT-AT from flattening him (whereas he failed to the fall of two AT-DPs), then proceeded to lift and crush it.

Except you don't know how long it took him to lift it, or how much effort, and you fail to acknowledge that Vader was knocked down at the time and somehow not crushed by much heavier than him AT-STs. erm

Right, because lifting up two heavy walkers in seconds while on your ass and on fire is a "lesser feat" than beginning to crush an AT-AT.

Not really. There are plenty of factors post ANH that could lead to Vader being less able to use his power if not grow desire to get to know that son he thought was dead.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Brah it took him over ten seconds to lift the things, that is not casual.

And while we can't glean anything from his facial expressions, his crouched stance suggests effort I feel. How? Kanan and Ezra shoved him to the ground, so he had to lift the AT-STs starting from a position literally on his ass and then progress to a crouching position, then standing position. And he had them lifted only a few seconds after they fell on him, it took him ten seconds to stand upright, but like, come on, they were literally just on top of him and he had to start lifting them while on his back.

FreshestSlice
Doesn't matter. He began to crush an AT-AT after an undetermined amount of time with an undetermined amount of effort, so it's not really that impressive.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except you don't know how long it took him to lift it, or how much effortAppealing to ambiguity is nice and all, but it doesn't work when you actually make an effort to intepret the scene. Let me help you:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4380317-0082750926-43734.png

Now we know Vader stopped its foot almost instantly otherwise it would have crushed him, and in the first panel the AT-AT is already showing signs of being crushed, so there's no reason to infer a time lapse. Then Han & Leia have a ten second conversation and in the next panel its off the ground. So he gripped and began crushing it almost instantly, and lifted it off the ground within several seconds. Not hard.Because that's not what's important. What's important is that he failed to stop them collapsing on him, whereas he succeeded in stopping the greater downward force of an AT-AT's foot trying to squash him.How is being on his ass relevant? Did he throw out his back? A little woozy perhaps?

There is no reason to believe Vader's reclining position would have had any detriment on his ability to use the Force. On top of that we see him raise his hand to deflect the AT-DPs, so clearly he was able to sufficiently recover.

On the other hand an AT-AT is many hundreds of tonnes heavier than two AT-APs, and he Force gripped, crushed and lifted it. So yes of course its a lesser feat, no matter how you try and phrase it lol, and I'm fascinated to know of what basis you've decided them equivalent.Of course, because making baseless (an pretty dumb) assumptions is preferable to taking Hidalgo not quite so literally.

But yes, I'm sure this is exactly what he was implying, and what he wanted to the fans to infer. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Beniboybling
Originally posted by |King Joker|
How? Kanan and Ezra shoved him to the ground, so he had to lift the AT-STs starting from a position literally on his ass and then progress to a crouching position, then standing position. And he had them lifted only a few seconds after they fell on him, it took him ten seconds to stand upright, but like, come on, they were literally just on top of him and he had to start lifting them while on his back. The fact that you are now making excuses for Vader proves it wasn't done casually tbh.

"Casual" would be blowing them off himself or lifting them off himself instantly, with no delay between crouching and standing. And is what I would expect from someone who can grip, lift and crush a far heavier object within a similar if not shorter span of time.

Also it took him several seconds just to start lifting them, in which Kanan & Ezra assumed him dead. erm

cs_zoltan
What's that Hidalgo quote anyway? I've never seen it.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Rebels Vader loses, RotJ on the other hand would win.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What's that Hidalgo quote anyway? I've never seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkd0MKEm2I&t=2m11s

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkd0MKEm2I&t=2m11s

lmao. Literally the sentence before: We are very careful to try to write him as George wrote him.

GL wrote that his prime is RotJ.

|King Joker|
In 1983.

Col. Valerian
If he's a canon authority and he says Vader is in his prime then he is, simple as that. As much as I don't like it, either. We should start getting feats that make us go damn, that's phucking impressive quite soon, or Hidalgo will become an idiot in my book.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
If he's a canon authority and he says Vader is in his prime then he is, simple as that. thumb up Originally posted by Col. Valerian
We should start getting feats that make us go damn, that's phucking impressive quite soon, or Hidalgo will become an idiot in my book. Are you familiar with Vader's feats in Lords of the Sith?

cs_zoltan
A canon authority also said that Vader is more skilled than Sidious, so reported for making a mismatch.

Syndicate
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
A canon authority also said that Vader is more skilled than Sidious, so reported for making a mismatch.

Lol. +1

FreshestSlice
Good.

Trocity
And we've already seen Sidious crap on Maul so the outcome here is quite clear.

|King Joker|
You're right, silly me. Vader stomps. But now Ahsoka is at the upper echelon of fighters. smile

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by |King Joker|
You're right, silly me. Vader stomps. But now Ahsoka is at the upper echelon of fighters. smile

So is Ben Kenobi wink

FreshestSlice
Nope. That's after his prime.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
If he's a canon authority and he says Vader is in his prime then he is, simple as that. As much as I don't like it, either. We should start getting feats that make us go damn, that's phucking impressive quite soon, or Hidalgo will become an idiot in my book. Vader's best showings are in the Darth Vader comics, particularly Vader Down, and despite having knowledge of his son there is zero indication he has become emotionally compromised.

Honestly its an off-hand comment by Hidalgo trying to give the impression that Rebels Vader isn't hindered in anyway, not a definitive statement. But if if his heart did grow three sizes upon discovering he had a son, Vader's prime would still logically be ANH, not Rebels.

I'm going to wait until this is confirmed by an in-universe source before putting any stock in it.

EmperorSidious2
Vader

Deronn_solo
Either way.

|King Joker|
What are Vader's best feats in the comics?

Deronn_solo
Didn't he beat a cyborg thatt, allegedly] held superiority over General Grievous?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by |King Joker|
What are Vader's best feats in the comics? Force gripping and crushing an AT-AT, Force choking someone through nothing but a radio transmission, from orbit, destroying Y-wings by launching boulders at them, emerging from the explosion of the largest weapons factory in the galaxy unscathed, defeated an army of a thousand rebels, without incurring injury, etc?

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by |King Joker|
thumb up Are you familiar with Vader's feats in Lords of the Sith?

No, but I want to become familiar. Post?

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Force gripping and crushing an AT-AT, Force choking someone through nothing but a radio transmission, from orbit, destroying Y-wings by launching boulders at them, emerging from the explosion of the largest weapons factory in the galaxy unscathed, defeated an army of a thousand rebels, without incurring injury, etc? Thanks for answering my question??

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
No, but I want to become familiar. Post? I can't post anything right now cuz school but I think someone like carthage or ares can give you a run-down on Vader's feats in LotS.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Thanks for answering my question??

You're welcome?

McP
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And the canon novel authorized by GL isn't?

Lucas alread confirmed, that Ben is just an old man, Vader is crippled half-droid half-man, and that PT (including TPM) have superior duelists in their prime.

Hard to tell if that quote isn't out-dated or still is a canon. Anyway, that quote from ROTJ is possibly out-dated and retconed by Lucas' own statement.

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