Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The three ancient sith of Darth Traya, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus (all primes) take on Darth Tyranus (peak sith lord), Darth Vader (peak suit) and Darth Maul (TCW)
Who comes out on top?
Round 1 Sabers only
Round 2 Force only
Round 3 All out

Team 2.
Team 1.
Team 1.

Team 2

Team 1 someone needs to be better than maul so they have a chance at winning

Team 2 I think their saber advantage will be good enough to bring them to victory and they aren't outclassed in the force.

Team 2 solidly for sabers. Force team 1 easily. All-out probably team 1. The Force advantage they have can easily be heavily abused.

Lel, Team 2 in pretty much everything.

Nihilus solo's except in sabers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus solo's except in sabers.

Kek I completely spaced out. Pretty much this

Team 2 probably takes all.

Team 2 easily in sabers, Team 1 easily in Force and all-out.

Team 2 sweeps

Traya and Sion are fodder

Obvious bait is obvious, Traya > Maul & Tyranus.

lel

Yeh, almost as if Traya telekinetically shitstomped groups of powerful Force users with absolute ease. Nihilus is the deal breaker though, not one member of team two can survive his drain.

Sabers only - team 2 slaughterstomps, Vader and Dooku alone would have a shot at soloing this.
Force only - team 1 slaughters. Even if you believe Vader's and Dooku's conventional Drain defenses can work against Nihilus, his magnitude is inhumanly beyond them, and Traya is superior to Dooku or Maul.

All out Nihili carries it for his team.

A group of fodder. Like absolute fodder. Your definition of powerful is retarded.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A group of fodder. Like absolute fodder. Your definition of powerful is retarded.

Four Jedi Council members, one of which has 'extremely potent Force powers', another can fight and escape Darth Sion, another is capable of stunning the Exile and her party, they are nothing like fodder.

Not to mention when she utterly humiliated the Exile's party with ease.

When did you adopt the Carthage line of imbecilic 'feats or fodder'? If you want to PT wank go ahead, but lowballing Kotor characters and insulting the intelligence of anybody who says otherwise, isn't getting you anywhere.

Three Jedi Council members, all of which who are inferior to Revan before the Mandalorian Wars. That one lost to Sion, and even if you use cut content, had her Padawan with her, ran, and got captured by robots you solo. Then was shot and killed by a computer.

Not to mention each one has held a saber less than a year aside from Visas, who was tortured more than anything.

They're fodder, who barely compare to any of the higher ups in anything, who can all lose to the Exile, all at once. An Exile who can't even take on Nyriss. An Exile well below anyone here. It has nothing to do with emulating carthage and a lot more to do that these people were put her simply to die and nothing else. They did nothing impressive except die. so yeah, that's a pretty retarded definition of powerful.

No fodder would be Sith assassins, with your logic the Jedi that f*cked Vader up on Kessel were featless fodder, weaksauce confirmed.

Each had very high tier training before they were trained by the Exile, Mical was supposed to be Surik's padawan but she left to fight in the wars. Brianna was one of the foremost Echani martial artists in the galaxy and after training speedblitzed five Handmaidens in four seconds. Atton was an elite anti-Jedi fighter for Darth Revan in the Civil War and after training was able to beat Sion, Mira was one of the best bounty hunters on Nar Shaadaa.

So them being powerful, which is an accolade they all share, is retarded, but using DS Exile to compare to novel Surik is infallible logic is it? KEK.

Oh and she certainly can take Nyriss on, her defensive skill allowed her to hold her ground against Nyriss' amped speed, which took Scourge down in one strike, and her unprep'd Force barrier was strong enough to absorb the brunt of lightning better than Dooku's. Not to mention the Exile was hindered by Dromund Kaas and Nyriss was most certainly amped.

They aren't fodder, stop lowballing, actually debate for once.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No fodder would be Sith assassins, with your logic the Jedi that f*cked Vader up on Kessel were featless fodder, weaksauce confirmed.

Yep. Your assumption that I'd care that Vader is involved is wrong.

So no training at all here.

She was actually the weakest of the Handmaidens and won because she's Force Sensitive.

Atton was an assassin trained to surprise Jedi and then torture them. Not to mention he never even fought her.

Damn, a bounty hunter? Well that's basically a Mandalorian, which is basically Jesus.

No it is not. Traya flat out calls them children as opposed to Jedi. That's not even Padawan level.

Dark Side Exile is no more powerful than the Light variant given she doesn't actually directly use the Force and killed none of the masters beforehand to grow so powerful, so pretty much.

Must have missed the part where she and Scourge together couldn't take down Nyriss then. It's a few paragraphs down from the scene you're misrepresenting.

Kind of like Malachor. Only weaker.

I'll get right one that when you get your own information in order.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yep. Your assumption that I'd care that Vader is involved is wrong.

So application bias, cool.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So no training at all here.


He was strong enough to be considered for Jedi training in a time when tens of thousands were overwhelming the Order already, yeh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She was actually the weakest of the Handmaidens and won because she's Force Sensitive.

She wasn't weakest, she just couldn't handle her emotions, once she returned she levelled them in a few seconds, these being masters of precognition.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Atton was an assassin trained to surprise Jedi and then torture them. Not to mention he never even fought her.

They killed and tortured Jedi for a living, you claimed they hadn't handled a lightsaber for a year, which is irrelevant given their previous experience.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Damn, a bounty hunter? Well that's basically a Mandalorian, which is basically Jesus.

A bounty hunter capable of taking down a Jedi Master.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No it is not. Traya flat out calls them children as opposed to Jedi. That's not even Padawan level.

Traya ridicules everybody, Bastila on the other hand says Vrook Lamar is one of the most powerful Masters in the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dark Side Exile is no more powerful than the Light variant given she doesn't actually directly use the Force and killed none of the masters beforehand to grow so powerful, so pretty much.

I take it you actually played the game... because Dark Side Exile is far stronger than the Light Side Exile even in the storyline.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Must have missed the part where she and Scourge together couldn't take down Nyriss then. It's a few paragraphs down from the scene you're misrepresenting.

Yes because she was amped and had a huge speed advantage that they conceded to her when they dodged her lightning bolt at the start and she leapt on them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kind of like Malachor. Only weaker.

Pretty much irrelevant.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'll get right one that when you get your own information in order.

I do, you called them complete fodder, which is hilariously wrong. You lowballed instead of debating, simple.

Traya completely stomping two powerful groups of Jedi with absolute ease is better than any comparable Force feat Tyranus or Maul has accomplished before.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So application bias, cool.

That's actually the exact opposite of what that is.


He was also a child. And that's not what training means. Keep on moving that goal post.

Except she's stated to be the weakest...and they don't have actual precognition, and she has actual Force powers. There's really no comparison. The fact that the Exile can solo all of them while barely even being able to feel the Force is hilarious on it's own as well.

Except the entire point was to not actually confront the Jedi.

Citation needed.

The super impressive Jedi Order Revan topped at 20ish and then decimated during two wars.

Uh, no. Only if you actually kill the masters first, and considering you can't solo people already dead, that's not really that possible.

And Scourge wouldn't be because...?

No it pretty much isn't.

You act like you

A) Presented literally anything that puts a single person you brought up into relevancy
and
B) That saying someone is weak is somehow mutually exclusive from talking about them, which is what debating is.

You still have to show why these people are powerful besides saying they are, and including a bunch of misinformation that has next to nothing to do with actual Jedi training. The fact that you think defeating a bunch of neophytes is beyond Dooku's capabilities is pretty lulzy too.

Round 1: Team 2
Round 2: Team 1
Round 3: Team 1

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Team 2 I think their saber advantage will be good enough to bring them to victory and they aren't outclassed in the force.
They cannot do much against Force Drain powers.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A group of fodder. Like absolute fodder. Your definition of powerful is retarded.
Jedi Masters are not fodder by any stretch of imagination. A Jedi becomes a Master only after proving himself worthy for the title (in most cases).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
An Exile well below anyone here.
You sure about this?

She defeated Darth Traya and Darth Sion on separate occasions.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
An Exile who can't even take on Nyriss.
While I don't buy the whole Darth Nyriss (being amped) nonsense, Meetra Surik lost to Darth Nyriss in a setting that was strong in the Dark Side nonetheless.

Why is Traya fodder in this thread yet in all others she one-shots with gigadrain?

And I would think collectively the Jedi Masters are more powerful than any individual Dooku has dominated.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeh, almost as if Traya telekinetically shitstomped groups of powerful Force users with absolute ease. Nihilus is the deal breaker though, not one member of team two can survive his drain.

Dooku and Vader might. Might.

But then they get shitstomped. Also I highly doubt they can take Nihilus AND Traya draining them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why is Traya fodder in this thread yet in all others she one-shots with gigadrain?

And I would think collectively the Jedi Masters are more powerful than any individual Dooku has dominated.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Damn, a bounty hunter? Well that's basically a Mandalorian, which is basically Jesus.

IIRC Mira was a Mandalorian. Or was brought up by them or something.

Tbh looking over the Jedi Masters' feats they have some pretty impressive showings.

Kavar is casually Force stunning several soldiers at once with a gesture, knocking the Exile on her ass and incapacitating 5 soldiers with a Force wave. Vrook was able to temporarily incapacitate the Exile and her party with a Force push, straight up trap the Exile in stasis, and Zez-Kai Ell is casually launching Hanharr over several dozen if not a hundred meters with a push.

And of course collectively they were capable of severing the Exile from the Force, so yeah not seeing how they are fodder at all.

Yep, stormtrooper tier fodder confirmed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why is Traya fodder in this thread yet in all others she one-shots with gigadrain?

And I would think collectively the Jedi Masters are more powerful than any individual Dooku has dominated.
Traya isn't fodder; she killed fodder. You can act like Kavar is the best thing every all you want, Beni, but TKing him isn't something outside of the capabilties of anyone here.
Originally posted by Nephthys

IIRC Mira was a Mandalorian. Or was brought up by them or something.
Yeah. A Mandalorian slave. Which does not make you a Jedi killer by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Jedi Masters are not fodder by any stretch of imagination. A Jedi becomes a Master only after proving himself worthy for the title (in most cases).

Completely ignoring the several people title "Jedi Master" that are slain on a daily basis and in swarms in the OR era, NJO, TCW, and Legacy, sure.

Yes, I'm absolutely certain that defeating Traya and Sion is something pretty much everyone on Team 2 can do here being superior combatants.

And she would have lost in a neutral setting because she was generally more powerful than her.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Traya isn't fodder; she killed fodder. You can act like Kavar is the best thing every all you want, Beni, but TKing him isn't something outside of the capabilties of anyone here.And you can make all the baseless claims you like but that doesn't make them any less false.

But yeah lets also ignore the fact that Kreia oneshotted him and two other equally powerful masters.

Kavar isn't more powerful than Obi-Wan and Anakin, the hell are you talking about? And she didn't even one shot them, she TK'd them and used some drain that was supposed to be unable to be defended against.

Huh? When did Dooku dominate Anakin?

And? Traya doesn't have use of her Force drain powers here or something? Lel.

No she quite likely wouldn't have lost, Nyriss had nothing but amplified speed going for her. The Dark Temple and the Citadel are stated to be nexuses of the Dark Side that can be drawn from, at long distances.

Nyriss couldn't kill Surik through Surik's barrier, despite Surik not being able to connect to the Force and find enlightenment, as stated in the novel, which clearly indicates an inability to draw from Force valor and properly apply Force defense.

Nyriss took an immediate offensive advantage over them when they had to dodge her lightning, she took Scourge down in a single lunge then she focused on Surik, whom was capable of holding her ground defensively until she was physically driven to her knee by Nyriss.

Not to mention Surik had been physically and mentally exhausted before even arriving on Kaas, she suffered severely on Nathema before spending four straight days relying on Force sustenance without food, water or sleep. Only then did she arrive on Kaas where again she had no chance at revitalisation and couldn't connect to the Light Side of the Force.

Meetra survived a single bolt of Nyriss' lightning, sure. But it's also stated in the novel that her FLS was going to kill them both.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Huh? When did Dooku dominate Anakin?

In pretty much every encounter until RotS?

She does, but given she's up against far superior opponents, I doubt she'll be able to use it in time.

Team 2 pretty solidly throughout.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Meetra survived a single bolt of Nyriss' lightning, sure. But it's also stated in the novel that her FLS was going to kill them both.

Scourge thinks he was powerless, just like the rest of the fight. Nyriss intends to incinerate her enemies with more power than she can control. Hence getting obliterated by the rebounded power herself.

Though it's beyond my point, really.

Dooku > Kreia, Vader > Nihilus Maul >>>>> Sion

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Round 1: Team 2
Round 2: Team 1
Round 3: Team 1


They cannot do much against Force Drain powers.


Jedi Masters are not fodder by any stretch of imagination. A Jedi becomes a Master only after proving himself worthy for the title (in most cases).


You sure about this?

She defeated Darth Traya and Darth Sion on separate occasions.


While I don't buy the whole Darth Nyriss (being amped) nonsense, Meetra Surik lost to Darth Nyriss in a setting that was strong in the Dark Side nonetheless.


While I see Nihlus as possibly the greatest Sith to use drain or one of them, Vader and Tyranus are extremely powerful people, and I'm not completely sure but can you or someone explain to me Darth Vader's teachings by Qel Droma on how to resist Force Drain? I know he has that, but Dooku I think would just have to rely on his sheer power to get through which I think is possible to overpower his opponent, but I'm not 100% sure.

It's not like they're going to kill people more powerful than themselves with it anyway. But even if they could, at least two of these three can stop it.

Team 2
Team 1
Team 1

Maul dies to the drain. Leaving it 3 v 2. And while Vader and Dooku are more powerful than Kreia or Sion I'm unsure if they will be capable of handling both. And then there is Nihilus himself who should be able to beat either in a battle.

So I'd say the Triumvirate takes all out in a hard fought battle

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In pretty much every encounter until RotS?Name one example, that didn't have extenuating circumstances. As duelists, yes. In the Force that's only the case for Vader. Maul is not as powerful as Traya and Dooku's only conceivable advantage over her is TK, and even then its not at all considerable, whereas Traya has a wider range of more potent abilities, and may be more powerful overall.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I see Nihlus as possibly the greatest Sith to use drain or one of them, Vader and Tyranus are extremely powerful people, and I'm not completely sure but can you or someone explain to me Darth Vader's teachings by Qel Droma on how to resist Force Drain? I know he has that, but Dooku I think would just have to rely on his sheer power to get through which I think is possible to overpower his opponent, but I'm not 100% sure. You just said Dooku can survive Nihilus' drain and defeat him with his superior raw power.

I just wanted to make sure you know you said that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Completely ignoring the several people title "Jedi Master" that are slain on a daily basis and in swarms in the OR era, NJO, TCW, and Legacy, sure.
Kindly provide some examples.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes, I'm absolutely certain that defeating Traya and Sion is something pretty much everyone on Team 2 can do here being superior combatants.
I don't rule out this possibility but it isn't a given.

Darth Traya have formidable Force abilities and her Force Drain powers (in particular) are a game-changer for her against many adversaries.

Darth Sion can continue to resurrect himself and exhaust his adversary in a duel in a setting strong in the Dark Side. The only way to stop him is to convince him to let go and not many can override his will. He may not fare as well in a neutral setting but his immortality remains a problem in this contest nonetheless.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And she would have lost in a neutral setting because she was generally more powerful than her.
My point is that loosing to Darth Nyriss isn't a negative for Meetra Surik or makes her mediocre in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Sinious
You just said Dooku can survive Nihilus' drain and defeat him with his superior raw power.

I just wanted to make sure you know you said that.

I believe it's possible, to make it more clear, but not completely sure.

No ****ing way is Dooku overpowering Nihilus.

And Ulics technique involves replenishing your force reserves as they're drained. Theres no telling that it would work with the Gigadrain which is stated to sever the target of the force and then drain it. Or that they could replenish themselves at a good enough rate to match Nihilus' drain. IIRC in the game you could get drained by the reaper faster than Anakin could keep up with and die.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Obvious bait is obvious, Traya > Maul & Tyranus.

Def not Tyranus. He had access to the same holocron that taught Anakin to resist the Dark Reaper.

Team 2 wins. Vader has the knowledge to resist the Dark Reapers and has raw force power roughly on the level of Nihilus. Maul can likely break Sion.

I do agree that Nihilus outguns Tyranus though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why is Traya fodder in this thread yet in all others she one-shots with gigadrain?

And I would think collectively the Jedi Masters are more powerful than any individual Dooku has dominated.

This thread has Vader and Dooku.
Dooku was wanked to death on these forums for a long time.
Now Vader is being wanked like crazy.
After the Vader hype dies down, this forum will start worshipping Kylo Ren (perhaps this has already begun).

While there are exceptions, putting most characters from other eras against the current deities of this board will cause those characters to be lowballed and considered fodder.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Def not Tyranus. He had access to the same holocron that taught Anakin to resist the Dark Reaper.
Darth Traya have superior Force abilities.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Team 2 wins. Vader has the knowledge to resist the Dark Reapers and has raw force power roughly on the level of Nihilus. Maul can likely break Sion.
No.

Anakin Skywalker could resist Force Drain powers to a certain extent but not indefinitely.

FYI: If you get too close to the Dark Reaper, you perish regardless of your abilities.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I see Nihlus as possibly the greatest Sith to use drain or one of them, Vader and Tyranus are extremely powerful people, and I'm not completely sure but can you or someone explain to me Darth Vader's teachings by Qel Droma on how to resist Force Drain? I know he has that, but Dooku I think would just have to rely on his sheer power to get through which I think is possible to overpower his opponent, but I'm not 100% sure.
Darth Nihilus consumed an entire world including hundreds of Jedi.

While Count Dooku and Darth Vader are powerful Force-users, they don't stand a chance against most potent expressions of Force Drain.

Yes, Ulic Qel-Droma taught Anakin Skywalker the ability to resist Force Drain powers but this talent have limitations.

Skywalker could resist the effects of Dark Reaper from a certain distance but could not get close to it.

Raw power alone would not save Count Dooku and Darth Vader from eventual demise.

Any proof that Ulic's technique is good enough to resist Nihilus? It's limitations as pointed out by Legend seem to be proof that it'd be inadequate.

Any proof that the Sith's drain are good enough to kill people more powerful than themselves? Or that they'd get the chance to use it in a combat scenario against opponents stronger than themselves?

Yeah the strongest people that have ever been instadrained are the councilors in KOTOR II

Don't let the fact that they're only seen dying really fool you. They're top-tiers all of them.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I believe it's possible, to make it more clear, but not completely sure. Originally posted by Nephthys
No ****ing way is Dooku overpowering Nihilus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Any proof that the Sith's drain are good enough to kill people more powerful than themselves? Or that they'd get the chance to use it in a combat scenario against opponents stronger than themselves?

Lol @ any of these guys being more powerful than Nihilus.

Plus you know, he drained a hundred Jedi + a planet of force sensitives. If you think Vader, Maul and Dooku are collectively more potent than that, maybe we can continue this line of reasoning. But like, you'd be pretty ****in' wrong.

But ok, it's stated to be unblockable. Done. Wham, bam, than you mam.

And all Nihilus needs to do is use the technique, like just raise his hand if that. It's not like he's combusts in the presence of people stronger than him.

You dirty doggy

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus you know, he drained a hundred Jedi + a planet of force sensitives. If you think Vader, Maul and Dooku are collectively more potent than that, maybe we can continue this line of reasoning. But like, you'd be pretty ****in' wrong.

It's has nothing to do with collective potency. Because they're all individuals.

In the face of an AoE attack, a few strong individuals fare better than any number of weak individuals. Yoda would fare better in the face of Vitiate's FLS than 20 lesser Jedi, even though they collectively should possess far more force power than he does. Even if a thousand of those feeb Andeddu cultists stepped into Bane's Death Field, they would all have died; I doubt even you'd suggest that Luke would so easily drop dead if he alone were caught in it's radius. The same principle applies here.

Also, according to Bane's entry in the Book of Sith, Drain is incredibly difficult to apply in a combat situation. God, Bane. Don't you just hate him?

Right, except you wouldn't use an AOE attack against a single opponent, you'd concentrate the energy into a focused attack. For arguments sake, Yoda wouldn't necessarily fare better than those 20 Jedi if Vitiate compressed the power that he would have otherwise spread out over a wide area with less power per target, into a single blast of lightning. Nihilus didn't blast a planet when he attacked Traya or the Exile, he only attacked them and not anyone else with a single, focused attack.

Collective potency still matters for an AOE attack. You need to put out enough power to defeat a certain amount of people at the same time. Collectively. To defeat 20 Jedi at once, you need to put out enough power to overwhelm the force defenses of 20 Jedi at once. It'd use the same amount of power as an attack that overwhelmed the defenses of an opponent with power equal to all 20 Jedi together. QED mother****er.

Good thing Nihilus doesn't actually use drain then. Remember that? That didn't stop being a thing that was true, despite our pet name for the technique. And we've seen Nihilus and Traya use it easily in combat situations. Derp.

*Drops two pennies in the thread*

Maul and Dooku go down to Nihilus and Traya's initial drainage and the short aftermath. Vader loses to all three.

Impossible. Life draining powers are fueled by the energies of the consumed; in a sense, Nihilus can kill planets because planets possess a planet-sized supply of life. The idea that Nihilus would even attempt to use enough power to consume a planet so that he could gain the life force of one Jedi is absurd; he'd be putting far more in than he was taking out.

As for your second point; it's irrelevant. Ultimately, if twenty Jedi were actually combined into a single being, it wouldn't matter in the slightest how focused Valkorion's powers may or may not be; he stands no chance. Take a good look at Dorsk 81 at the time of his death; he essentially became the "collective" power of several Jedi and threw a fleet out of orbit, his body destroying itself under the strain. Or maybe it would be more down your alley to refer to Bane and the Brotherhood's similar ritual in PoD, which allowed Bane to effortlessly destroy an massive forest with lightning? You're overestimating the difference in power between relative Force users; even Anakin at his full potential, a being which would be greater than the Father, would only have been twice as powerful as Sidious. Killing a hundred Jedi and killing a being who has the collective power of a hundred Jedi aren't even close to being the same thing.



Curiously, every time was against opponents that weren't even powerful enough to get near them.

In the only possible exception to this rule, Nihilus happened to have brought Sion with him. Odd.

You must have just forgotten or not seen the hidden panel where all the Force sensitive not only tried to fight back, but also combined their powers into one being. It's okay though, it's pretty easy to miss.

Aw shit.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Impossible. Life draining powers are fueled by the energies of the consumed; in a sense, Nihilus can kill planets because planets possess a planet-sized supply of life. The idea that Nihilus would even attempt to use enough power to consume a planet so that he could gain the life force of one Jedi is absurd; he'd be putting far more in than he was taking out.

Wrong. In DoE Bane needed to maintain his death field with power and said that it would have exhausted him quickly. God, Bane. Don't you just hate him? And it's stupid to think that an attacks effectiveness is reliant on its victim. Nihilus needed to build up to consuming planets as he grew in power and ability and thus the scope of his technique grew. He couldn't just eat a planet "because planets possess a planet-sized supply of life." The legions of Sith Assassins who know the technique and can't eat planets is proof of that.

(the correct answer is that the attack isn't really reliant on power, which is why your theory of "moar powa = defense" is wrong don't tell anyone shhh)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As for your second point; it's irrelevant.

AKA I'm right but you're being petulant.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ultimately, if twenty Jedi were actually combined into a single being, it wouldn't matter in the slightest how focused Valkorion's powers may or may not be; he stands no chance. Take a good look at Dorsk 81 at the time of his death; he essentially became the "collective" power of several Jedi and threw a fleet out of orbit, his body destroying itself under the strain. Or maybe it would be more down your alley to refer to Bane and the Brotherhood's similar ritual in PoD, which allowed Bane to effortlessly destroy an massive forest with lightning? You're overestimating the difference in power between relative Force users; even Anakin at his full potential, a being which would be greater than the Father, would only have been twice as powerful as Sidious. Killing a hundred Jedi and killing a being who has the collective power of a hundred Jedi aren't even close to being the same thing.

It was just an example. Yours, actually.

Fact is, Nihilus killed 100 Jedi at once. They're the ones who stood no chance. So either you an accept that they had no defense so power is irrelevant or you can accept that Nihilus >>> 100 Jedi.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Curiously, every time was against opponents that weren't even powerful enough to get near them.

In the only possible exception to this rule, Nihilus happened to have brought Sion with him. Odd.

They never got the chance, the technique is too fast. The Masters were clearly combat ready, Kreia just one-shot them instantly.

Instead of trying to be cute and vague, maybe you should actually take the time to type out an argument explaining exactly how you think it matters or how a powerful opponent would subvert the attack. This isn't TOR, its not a channeled or charged ability you can interrupt with a kick to the nuts. They use the attack at will and you die. So please, enlighten us.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You must have just forgotten or not seen the hidden panel where all the Force sensitive not only tried to fight back, but also combined their powers into one being. It's okay though, it's pretty easy to miss.

Unseen, Unheard does show the populace of Katarr reacting to the visible attack. Also Jedi have this thing called precognition that lets them react to and respond to attacks they wouldn't otherwise see coming.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrong. In DoE Bane needed to maintain his death field with power and said that it would have exhausted him quickly.

Thank you for bringing up this example.

The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims.

--Dynasty of Evil



That's exactly what makes drain a unique power.



I don't see how this affects my point at all. The thing that made drain so dangerous to begin with is that anyone could use it to eventually become a danger to all life, at a cost. Nihilus wasn't really particularly special before he started eating things, for instance.



I would have liked to see Nihilus try and confront those 100 Jedi head on, lel.



Yeah, it was certainly an intense combat situation as they sat there for five minutes getting ragdolled and lectured.



It's not about subversion. It's about the attack being too weak to kill someone with greater force reserves than a weakling, especially considering two of them handled the goddamn Dark Reaper with their magic trick.



Visible? It's kind of irrelevant either way, but do you really think that Nihilus spawns black clouds when he fights? That's the death of Katarr as told by a blind woman who only viewed the world through the Force. The naked eye would likely be unable to see it.

Either way, his point remains undiminished; the Jedi never had the chance to do anything to Nihilus as they were thousands of miles away from him. Nor did they merge and become a force god to take the death field on.

LeGenD, you didn't credit me for the Dark Reaper discovery, just kidding.

If you need any more of a reason why Nihilus-grade gigadrain is not the same as drain:

In the KOTOR 2 cut content despite Meetra being fully capable of voiding Nihilus' drain, she is incapable of blocking Sion's regular drain which one shots her, he very nearly kills Surik with it; so much so that not even Kreia and the rest of the party can sense her in the Force anymore. T3-M4 has to turn up and perform healing on Surik to wake her up again.

Meetra blocks Nihilus' drain because she is his polar opposite as a wound in the Force, but she cannot resist normal drain, nor can Nihilus' drain be resisted by anybody else but Surik.

Nihilus arguably solos.

So we are using non-canon (to the old EU) content as evidence now?

Welp, time to break out those Infinities comics again. And, interesting to note, Chewbacca is Big Foot.

Cut content doesn't even agree with her because if we're using game mechanics as canon, Nihilus uses drain the entire fight and it works.

Team two sweeps. Vader's too strong.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD, you didn't credit me for the Dark Reaper discovery, just kidding.
I wasn't aware. Thanks for pointing out.

You have played this game?

Originally posted by AncientPower
If you need any more of a reason why Nihilus-grade gigadrain is not the same as drain:

In the KOTOR 2 cut content despite Meetra being fully capable of voiding Nihilus' drain, she is incapable of blocking Sion's regular drain which one shots her, he very nearly kills Surik with it; so much so that not even Kreia and the rest of the party can sense her in the Force anymore. T3-M4 has to turn up and perform healing on Surik to wake her up again.

Meetra blocks Nihilus' drain because she is his polar opposite as a wound in the Force, but she cannot resist normal drain, nor can Nihilus' drain be resisted by anybody else but Surik.

Nihilus arguably solos.
Interesting revelation.

Darth Nihilus's Force Drain powers are not unique; they were pioneered by ancient Sith centuries ago. Nathema experiment is a noteworthy example.

However, point of contention is about options to counter Force Drain powers. Force-users have pioneered conventional and/or unconventional methods to counter Force Drain powers but their effectiveness vary.

1. Ulic Qel-Droma revealed a conventional technique to counter Force Drain powers but its effectiveness is limited.

2. Valkorion's (Sith Sorcery) experiments established a fact that condition enables an individual to endure some Force Drain powers. Look no further than the example of Hands.

3. condition is an effective barrier against some Force Drain powers as apparent from the example of Meetra Surik.

4. Revan demonstrated that it is possible to endure some Force Drain powers in the presence of others by counter-draining them.

5. Valkorion (himself) is a testament to the fact that is the most effective method to endure/counter Force Drain powers.

However, it is unrealistic for any corporeal being to endure Katarr, Nathema and Ziost-like events.

---

Nonetheless, Force Drain powers are extremely difficult to counter/endure.

As far as this confrontation is concerned, Darth Vader and Count Dooku have knowledge of Qel-Droma's technique but it won't benefit them much in this contest. Darth Maul is a non-factor.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Team two sweeps. Vader's too strong.
Wrong.

Darth Nihilus is too strong and dangerous.

So much headcanon you could take out the moon.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Cut content doesn't even agree with her because if we're using game mechanics as canon, Nihilus uses drain the entire fight and it works.

She is drained in a cutscene on the droid planet by Sion, which IIRC also appears in the script. Nothing to do with game mechanics, like at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wrong.

Darth Nihilus is too strong and dangerous.

Yeah, sure. That's nice, dear. Vader still dominates.

Kek rip Deronn

Lel@DC dying with the cancer the opposing opinion in this thread has.
Originally posted by AncientPower
She is drained in a cutscene on the droid planet by Sion, which IIRC also appears in the script. Nothing to do with game mechanics, like at all.
It is because those other sources of drain you used to show how different it was are all in gameplay. Lore-wise, it's supposed to be the same drain Nihilus uses, and even if it wasn't, the Exile doesn't have anything to drain anyway, so it working is still gameplay mechanics.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lel@DC dying with the cancer the opposing opinion in this thread has.
And for that reason, I think it's time for this thread to go through a little chemo with yours truly.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, according to Bane's entry in the Book of Sith, Drain is incredibly difficult to apply in a combat situation. God, Bane. Don't you just hate him? Huh? I thought it was generally accepted that Nihilus' drain is different from standard techniques.

Because it is, Bane isn't a wound in the Force. And all Nihilus attacks have been instantaneous.

By that logic I'm not sure we can assume Ulic's technique against the Dark Reaper would be equally effective against Nihilus.

This is why I hate when people use Nihilus in a debate.

Can he drain?

Yes: He wins.
No: He loses.

Most interesting debate evur.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

Why would Bane need to be a wound in the Force to use Nihilus' drain when complete randoms can use it too once going to Malachor?

Because Bane has never been to Malachor?

Regardless, wounds in the Force passively drain the Force power from around them. Simply being in Nihilus presence was enough to have your powers sapped and his entire ship was a practical death field.

Its both logical and evident that is significantly amplified his ability to drain the Force from others, in comparison to someone not of that nature.

Wut. All Traya says you need to learn it is to be drained, and considering that's how Sith think you learn everything, I'm not sure why Bane wouldn't have been drained at some point in his training. I mean I don't think it's the same thing, but honestly the reasoning you're using is kind of off.

As to the rest, that really doesn't matter. That would just explain how he's able to drain others well, it's not a measure of how well within itself.

No, that's stupid. Firstly, you don't need to be drained. The Exile and Nihilus weren't. You just can't be taught it, which regular drain obviously can be. Secondly, when would Bane have been drained? The most advanced thing he was taught on Korriban was Lightning. He definitely wasn't taught so advanced and dangerous a technique like Nihilus', which btw Traya and the Exile went to great lengths to extinguish all knowledge of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, that's stupid. Firstly, you don't need to be drained. The Exile and Nihilus weren't.
They constantly drain everything around them by being wounds, including themselves. Also, everyone else isn't a wound, so that really doesn't matter. Nice splitting hair though.

Okay, it can't be taught, but half the Sith in galaxy currently know it? They were being shipped to Malachor specifically to be taught it by feeling it first hand. And Kreia went to great lengths to extinguish something her assassins are still using? M'kay. I mean, "You can't use ___ without experiencing ___," is Sith 101, Plagues says the same thing about Lightning in the novel. There's also the fact Bane found Revan's holocron, and I somehow doubt Revan wouldn't know about the Drain he was training assassins to use. That would be dumb. Exceedingly.

Nihilus' nature matters because it gives him an intrinsic advantage that Bane doesn't have. Which makes his experience circumstantial and non-applicable.

On the other hand never has Nihilus has used Force drain on individuals and even on a planet seemingly instantaneously, so why is its combat effectiveness even a question?

Its entirely baseless to assume Nihilus will have difficulty here, and Bane's experiences proving nothing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
even on a planet seemingly instantaneously,

Derp, where.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They constantly drain everything around them by being wounds, including themselves. Also, everyone else isn't a wound, so that really doesn't matter. Nice splitting hair though.

The Exile first used the technique on herself, genius. That's how she became a wound in the first place. She didn't learn it from a holocron, she did it by instinct. Pretty sure Nihilus is the same.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Okay, it can't be taught, but half the Sith in galaxy currently know it? They were being shipped to Malachor specifically to be taught it by feeling it first hand. And Kreia went to great lengths to extinguish something her assassins are still using? M'kay. I mean, "You can't use ___ without experiencing ___," is Sith 101, Plagues says the same thing about Lightning in the novel. There's also the fact Bane found Revan's holocron, and I somehow doubt Revan wouldn't know about the Drain he was training assassins to use. That would be dumb. Exceedingly.

Right, they weren't taught it from a teacher or anything, they learned it from Malachor. It's not a standard technique. Malachor was made into a crucible to create beings like the Exile. And Kreia engineered the situation where the Exile would wipe out all practitioners of the technique. She wasn't even in charge of the assassins until the end of the game, at which point she'd already put their destruction into motion.

Plagueis is full of shit, Bane didn't need Githany to zap him to eclipse her in it's use nigh-instantly. We know Kreia is telling the truth because otherwise there'd be no need for Malachor.

It doesn't matter if the technique was in Revan's holocron. It can't be taught. Revan could describe the technique all he wants but Bane still wouldn't be capable of learning it.

Also it goes without saying that no-one else has ever shown the effects that Nihilus' drain causes, like dramatic increases in power, mental dominance hunger, addiction etc etc as a result of standard force drain. Cuz no-one else outside of Kotor II uses that technique.

It depends really on to what extent does Anakin's knowledge on the Dark Reaper could be applied to stop Nihilus's drain. If it's comparable, then Team 2 wins sabers and all-out.

However, if Anakin's knowledge cannot be applied against Nihilus and Traya, Team 1 wins all-out.

What's for sure is that Team 1 takes the Force battle and Team 2 takes the sabers duel. The combined power of Traya and Nihilus is too much for Dooku and Vader and there's no way in hell Team 2 would lose sabers against the Triumvirate.

Either Dooku or Vader can solo Traya and Sion

Not sure why people are so easy to give the victory to Nihilus, when any combination of the Sith Maul/Dooku or Maul/Vader stomp him

Because Dooku and Maul would get oneshotted? Dooku can't even handle Talzin's drain lel.

Prove that Traya can oneshot them?

Talzin is far more powerful than Traya, i,e powerful enough to go head to head with Sidious while weakened. Talzin draining Dooku isn't proof Traya can

Traya's drain is more powerful.

I was referring to Nihilus, only Vader can feasibly stand against him.

Although I would say Dooku's complete helplessness against Talzin's drain indicates he has no defense against it.

Nihilus's drain is just pretty much overpowering everyone unless Vader learned some way to defend against it.

Originally posted by carthage
Prove that Traya can oneshot them?

Talzin is far more powerful than Traya, i,e powerful enough to go head to head with Sidious while weakened. Talzin draining Dooku isn't proof Traya can
Mother Talzin might have more raw power then Darth Traya but the latter seems to be relatively more proficient in the use of Force Drain powers.