Arcann vs. DOE Bane (Force battle)

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carthage
Fight takes place on neutral ground

Syndicate
Hmmmm. Not sure.

JKBart
Nice thread.
I'll say Arcann 10/10 but I can be swayed for, like, 8/10.

Deronn_solo
Arcann.

S_W_LeGenD
Arcann

Syndicate
Well now that Emperor's shown me the scale of the Rakatan temple Bane collapsed, Bane easily.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Arcann.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
Well now that Emperor's shown me the scale of the Rakatan temple Bane collapsed, Bane easily.
Did he tell you about how the Temple Bane collapsed in the novel isn't even the same size as the one in TOR, and that Revan bombarded for an extended period of time, or hell, even the fact that Bane only blew out the supporting archway? Or did he just show you a picture?

ILS
shh.. shh... needless details

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did he tell you about how the Temple Bane collapsed in the novel isn't even the same size as the one in TOR, and that Revan bombarded for an extended period of time, or hell, even the fact that Bane only blew out the supporting archway? Or did he just show you a picture?

He showed me that Revan put his holocron in the Temple of the Ancients ( the temple in the picture ) and considering the temple Bane collapsed was the one he found the holocron in...

carthage
He was amplified heavily and as Freshest noted it was heavily bombarded.

Bane blasting away blown up rubble really isn't above anything Arcann is capable of

Syndicate
I think you're underrating the feat given the building seems to be dozens of stories high and that the novel states that it shook said temple's foundations and the foundations are apparently miles below ground.

Also that's only conjecture on your part.

carthage
Bane being incapable of replicating anything similar off of a darkside nexus isn't conjecture its fact, and Bane blasting away rubble which has been blown to bits by Revan's ships isn't conjecture either lmao

Syndicate
He's STATED I repeat STATED one more time STATED to be more powerful then at any point before numerous times in RoT and DoE.

They fought within the temple so it can't have been rubble. It might have been weakened by bombardment but it was still strong enough to remain standing.

ILS
Your power determines how much of the Force energy around you that you can draw upon. When on a nexus you have more Force energy to draw on. Bane can be more capable of drawing on the Force all he wants, it doesn't change the fact the nexus gave him a shit-ton of additional power to draw on. Going by your logic, Vader > Mortakin.

Syndicate
What if I am? :P The Ones are shit tier combatants that Ahsoka would rofltstomp. Did you see how she held off BOTH Obi Wan and Anakin simultaneously and then later how Anakin dominated both the Brother and Sister singlehandedly. Lol. Git gud screb.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
Your power determines how much of the Force energy around you that you can draw upon. When on a nexus you have more Force energy to draw on. Bane can be more capable of drawing on the Force all he wants, it doesn't change the fact the nexus gave him a shit-ton of additional power to draw on. Going by your logic, Vader > Mortakin. Post PoD Bane stated he felt power, his own power, he had never known before, so naw.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Syndicate
He's STATED I repeat STATED one more time STATED to be more powerful then at any point before numerous times in RoT and DoE.

They fought within the temple so it can't have been rubble. It might have been weakened by bombardment but it was still strong enough to remain standing.

Can I get the quote?

If he's stated to be more powerful than at any point prior to that moment, it would invalidate arguments saying he can only replicate those feats while on a nexus.

ILS
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Post PoD Bane stated he felt power, his own power, he had never known before, so naw. Quote?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
He showed me that Revan put his holocron in the Temple of the Ancients ( the temple in the picture ) and considering the temple Bane collapsed was the one he found the holocron in...
It's also said to be 20 meters tall. Nowhere near as tall as the one seen in TOR. It's not like the tower was made bigger for the Bane Trilogy, the entire concept was changed. And again, it's not like Bane destroyed the Temple. He broke it's supporting structures.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Can I get the quote?

If he's stated to be more powerful than at any point prior to that moment, it would invalidate arguments saying he can only replicate those feats while on a nexus.

Sure. Let me ask Emp.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's also said to be 20 meters tall. Nowhere near as tall as the one seen in TOR. It's not like the tower was made bigger for the Bane Trilogy, the entire concept was changed. And again, it's not like Bane destroyed the Temple. He broke it's supporting structures.

Is it? I'd agree that the novel trumps gameplay cutscenes. Can I get the quote?

FreshestSlice

Deronn_solo
^^ 10/10 sexy post, would bang again.

Syndicate
That's all fine but it's not saying that Bane only collapsed the archway and the rest was up to gravity. It simply says the arch way collapsed first. Also the feat itself would be overrated if it was attempted to be applied to PoD Bane but it's not. It's attempted to be applied to DoE Bane who is stated to be more powerful about 2 times removed due to statements.

FreshestSlice
To the first bit, common sense, get some. Archway fell, then a second later the roof fell. Archways are supporting structures. That is the entire point of an arch. Like literally the only thing it does. As to the second, what?

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Syndicate
Sure. Let me ask Emp.

Kthx

S_W_LeGenD
Darth Bane's grand showing on Lehon is nothing to sneeze at. However, we shall keep in mind that that Temple was not in its prime state. Moreover, the environment was also ideal for Darth Bane.

For comparison:

Arcann's sister (Vaylin) literally tore a structure of similar size apart and hurled its huge chunks towards another building as if they were nothing. The setting was also neutral.

I believe that Arcann is on par with Vaylin, if not better.

FreshestSlice
No she didn't, and no he isn't. Vaylin's more powerful than Arcann, Arcann's just a better combatant.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No she didn't, and no he isn't.
Yes, she did:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111138626/4908050-sl1a.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111138626/4908053-structure8.jpg

That structure is (was) huge.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vaylin's more powerful than Arcann, Arcann's just a better combatant.
Vaylin might have greater potential but Arcann have superior command of the Force at the moment.

Vaylin might surpass her brother at some point but this remains to be seen.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
To the first bit, common sense, get some. Archway fell, then a second later the roof fell. Archways are supporting structures. That is the entire point of an arch. Like literally the only thing it does. As to the second, what?

A buildings support is not only made up of the archway. Unless Bane's TK substantially weakened the structure it shouldn't have totally collapsed just because the archway did.

He's stated to be more powerful then he'd ever been before in RoT and then again in DoE thus he's more powerful then the incarnation that accomplished that feat two times over.

carthage
pretty irrelevant to the fact there is no evidence he could replicate that feat

Syndicate
I guess that's where we disagree. I believe straight out statements even if the feats don't exist to back it up.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
Quote? "Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back. Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. The hallucinations that had plagued his wounded mind ever since the detonation of the thought bomb vanished, instantly and utterly annihilated by his newfound power. He was stronger now than he ever had been, and he knew the visions of the dead Sith would haunt him no more."

And this is before the Orbalisks even fully develop, DoE Bane being even more powerful than Orbalisk Bane at his peak.

So frankly the Lehon feat is a low end showing, lel.Originally posted by carthage
pretty irrelevant to the fact there is no evidence he could replicate that feat Lmao, Bane being more powerful than he ever was before, including on Lehon, is evidence he can replicate that feat.

Sinious
People should just put Bane where he belongs and not on par with either Yoda or Ventress.

Beniboybling
Some people are just too salty, so that will never happen.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
*snip*.
Again, LeGenD, she only ripped up the plating. That is not ripping up an entire building. Second, that was never said, ever. No one said Arcann had greater command of the Force than Vaylin, and no evidence actually supports that. Hell, Lana flat out contradicts this when you first meet her.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
A buildings support is not only made up of the archway. Unless Bane's TK substantially weakened the structure it shouldn't have totally collapsed just because the archway did.

Uh, yeah it would, because if it lost a major supporting structure, what's left wouldn't be able to hold up the weight of the entire building because it wasn't built to support it.

That is not what that means. That's like arguing that Sidious must be thousands of times over more powerful than Bane, which is ridiculous to say the least. erm

Emperordmb
The archway was 20 meters up on the exterior of the temple, it wasn't supporting its entire weight or structure lol

FreshestSlice
No, it's not. The entire structure was 20 meters, not just one archway.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/fe/Unkwld_temple.jpg


Hell the idea that the entire temple collapsed instead of that part of the entry way like it's described in the novel is retarded too, but I digress.

Beniboybling
Yah the novel clearly states the entire structure is 20 meters in height, either SWTOR is a retcon, or his fleet blew several dozen meters off of it.

Emperordmb
And then twice it says the entrance is 20 meters up, which doesn't go all the way to the top of the temple.

FreshestSlice
When does it say that once, let alone twice?

Emperordmb
I'm on my phone, but I can get you the quotes when I get home in 7 or 8 hours.

Beniboybling
OK I looked it up myself, seems there is at least one passage in that vein:

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below.

Nice to see Drew is so incompetent he contradicts himself within the space of a few chapters.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hmm. This is a very close fight, honestly.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK I looked it up myself, seems there is at least one passage in that vein:

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below.

Nice to see Drew is so incompetent he contradicts himself within the space of a few chapters.
Pretty sure they're on a higher floor and that they can see the entrance and staircase twenty meters below. As you can see in the picture, very little of the tower is actually that tall, even in TOR.

Beniboybling
Nah, they are right in front of the entrance, Bane jumps down the staircase immediately after.

JKBart
http://i.imgur.com/NKWLSPI.png

FreshestSlice
Well that's stupid because right before it says the stair case takes up most of the wall, though that doesn't match any description of the temple I've seen, and even in TOR it doesn't have a 20 meter tall staircase, lel.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by JKBart
http://i.imgur.com/NKWLSPI.png Accurate depiction of Lehon temple. smile

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
SWTOR is a retcon.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Uh, yeah it would, because if it lost a major supporting structure, what's left wouldn't be able to hold up the weight of the entire building because it wasn't built to support it.

That is not what that means. That's like arguing that Sidious must be thousands of times over more powerful than Bane, which is ridiculous to say the least. erm

Refer to DMB. I'm not one for architecture explanations.

In what way? His RoT incarnation is superior to the Bane that collapsed the temple and his DoE incarnation is superior to said RoT incarnation.

Emperordmb
Architecture explanation: an archway 20 meters up on the exterior of the temple is not holding all of its weight or structural integrity.

FreshestSlice
That doesn't make someone "two times removed more powerful," nor does that make up for the fact that those incarnations of him aren't superior to Arcann in anwyay. It doesn't make up for him to be, aside from Maul or Dooku(which I still doubt) the weakest Banite Sith, at any point in his life. Him being "more powerful than the guy that needed to gather power over an extended period of time to break a wall," is cool. Doesn't really change anything.

NewGuy01
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/fe/Unkwld_temple.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080604205953

^The walkway is almost as tall as the base wall of the structure. Based on it's almost pyramid-like design, it makes sense that destroying that arch and outer wall could cause the upper levels to cave in.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That doesn't make someone "two times removed more powerful," nor does that make up for the fact that those incarnations of him aren't superior to Arcann in anwyay. It doesn't make up for him to be, aside from Maul or Dooku(which I still doubt) the weakest Banite Sith, at any point in his life. Him being "more powerful than the guy that needed to gather power over an extended period of time to break a wall," is cool. Doesn't really change anything.

*Shrug* Guess I could have phrased it better. Sorry it wasn't to your liking.

Arcann's best supposed feat is keeping himself from dying to Vitiate's lightning and overwhelming either the HoT or Darth Nox. I'm still iffy on the overwhelming protagonists feat as it's unspecified which character he actually overwhelms. I don't hold to the line of thinking that it means he could overwhelm both. To collapse a temple. It does because collapsing a 20 meter temple is around or on par with overwhelming the HoT ( until it's specified I'll assume he overwhelmed the lightside protag ) and having decades to become more powerful and being stated as more powerful in both RoT and DoE seems to suggest that he is superior in the force.

Col. Valerian
I'm still waiting for dat quote, Syn.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Given the Hero's accolades and his/her accomplishments, I'm not confident that the Lehon feat is on par with throwing him/her around consistently.

Beniboybling
It depends on whether the Outlander was at full fighting strength tbh.

Also note that Arcann was only able to ragdoll the Outlander after knocking him on his ass and later presumably wearing him down.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not only do I question the validity of the notion that the Outlander wasn't at full strength at that point in time, but even not being at full strength relative to the events directly preceding KOTFE, I doubt he/she'd be inferior to the hero right after Act 3, which is when most of his/her best feats occur.

We can't pretend that Arcann ragdoll The Outlander around before the fight started, either.

FreshestSlice
If the Outlander didn't need more power to defeat Arcann, Valkorion wouldn't be giving it to them in Chapter XII.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up yeah. As for this fight, I feel that Bane has the more destructive offensive force ability, but Arcann's defense is also extremely staunch.

FreshestSlice
Kas'im defended against the most impressive thing Bane has ever or ever will do. Arcann definitely takes this.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It probably is the most impressive TK feat (non orby) bane ever did or would do, but it's not necessarily the most impressive he is capable of doing. Which is why this is a debate.

FreshestSlice
We see what a more powerful Bane can do and its not even comparable. Even if they were, none compare to tanking Valkorion, and it's implied that Arcann's unique way of using the Force allows him to constantly grow stronger over any fight with him. Bane doesn't really have a chance in Force only.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Wait, when is that implied? Sounds interesting.

FreshestSlice
"Jedi approach the Force as a companion, and Sith try to enslave it. Arcann and his kind... negotiate. They bargain with the Force in exchange for its power. The more they offer in sacrifice, the greater their reward--and they'll pay any price. That's what makes them strong."

So you know, basically the tagline for this expansion makes sense now. "A man can have anything if he's willing to sacrifice everything."

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kas'im defended against the most impressive thing Bane has ever or ever will do. Arcann definitely takes this.

That was only a portion of the wave though. A small part.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'm still waiting for dat quote, Syn.

Emp has it. I'll post it when he gets back to me.

Emperordmb
I thought someone else already posted it last page.

Syndicate
Ah you're right Emp. Here you go Col.

"Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back. Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. The hallucinations that had plagued his wounded mind ever since the detonation of the thought bomb vanished, instantly and utterly annihilated by his newfound power. He was stronger now than he ever had been, and he knew the visions of the dead Sith would haunt him no more."

FreshestSlice
Beni said it was his own power, and in that quote it's flat out saying he's drawing on the orbalisks.

Syndicate
Fair enough. Emp do you have the DoE quote?

ILS
ayy lmao

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough. Emp do you have the DoE quote?
It's not as much a quote as it is considerably superior physical augmentation that would mark an increase in Force power.

JKBart
people don't think the universe be like it is
but it do

Emperordmb
that was beautiful JKBart... truly beautiful.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Jedi approach the Force as a companion, and Sith try to enslave it. Arcann and his kind... negotiate. They bargain with the Force in exchange for its power. The more they offer in sacrifice, the greater their reward--and they'll pay any price. That's what makes them strong."

So you know, basically the tagline for this expansion makes sense now. "A man can have anything if he's willing to sacrifice everything."

That didn't really help him against GGkorion, did it?

FreshestSlice
Kek, why would it? Valkorion doesn't use the Force like the Sith or the Jedi either, besides being a metric-shit ton more powerful. Besides, the Outlander's supposed to be getting a boost soon, but even then they have to learn how to use the Force differently to defeat Arcann. Unfortunately, the way the'll be doing it is one of the few things BioWare didn't put in this patch.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nah, Valkorion's still clearly a Sith Lord with sith ideologies. Accept the fact that Arcann isn't TOAA tier potential

FreshestSlice
As soon as you finally an hero like Bart commanded.

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