Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Darth Bane and Darth Zannah (DoE) face off against The Emperor's Wrath and Darth Nox (End of Ziost). Fight takes place on flat, neutral terrain.

Bane and Zannah IMO. Either of them are better duelists than either of their opponents, I'd question either of their capabilities to withstand Zannah's sorcery, and Bane's telekinesis and lightning is greater than either of theirs as well.

The idea of Nox and the Wrath not having enough willpower to resist Zannah's illusions is pretty hilarious, especially in a neutral setting. Anyway Nox and the Wrath don't get good until KotFE. Just like TOR.

Should be pretty evenly matched, but I'll side with the Rule of Two.

Good thread

Nox is for sure above Zannah in sorcery and general Force mastery. Nox could beat either individually in Force, however when considering Wrath II vs Bane the latter would fall short in being able to handle Bane's Force advantage. Both can definitely resist Zannah's sorcery, and she's probably the weak link here tbh. I can see Wrath overpowering her in sabers, but again would fall short in defending against her other Force techniques. Nox could down Bane in Force, but sabers she'd fall short. Too close of a call for me atm. I'd like to see some other arguments before making up my mind on it

Team 2

Bane and Zannah wreck.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane and Zannah wreck.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team 2

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Should be pretty evenly matched, but I'll side with the Rule of Two.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane and Zannah IMO. Either of them are better duelists than either of their opponents, I'd question either of their capabilities to withstand Zannah's sorcery, and Bane's telekinesis and lightning is greater than either of theirs as well.

Reasons? Just curious

Loling @ Bane being a better duelist than Wrath

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Reasons? Just curious
I gave the reasons lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I gave the reasons lol

I'm meaning reasons you say that neither of team 2 could handle Zannah's sorcery and are both inferior duelists. What showings, feats, etc. brought you to that conclusion?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I'm meaning reasons you say that neither of team 2 could handle Zannah's sorcery and are both inferior duelists. What showings, feats, etc. brought you to that conclusion?
Zannah's illusions almost overwhelming DOE Bane, who has some of the greatest feats of willpower in the mythos. POD Bane casually shrugged off the telepathy of a man with GM Luke level telepathic feats, and DOE Bane vastly outstrips POD Bane in willpower.

Then as far as dueling goes, POD Bane driving saberstaff Kas'im into a desperate retreat and ROT Bane driving back Raskta, Farfalla, and Johun at the same time, both of which were prior to his peak as an offensive duelist as demonstrated by his fights with Zannah, impress me more in terms of lightsaber combat than either of the TOR team, as does Zannah's ability to escape from under Bane's assault after being on her back.

I don't know about all that nonsense, but Team 1 has more power at that point to make up for any differences.

Lmao at using Orbalisk Banes dueling feats as examples of what DOE Bane can do

Originally posted by Emperordmb
POD Bane casually shrugged off the telepathy of a man with GM Luke level telepathic feats

LAL.
Are you high again?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL.
Are you high again?

Again?

You mean still, I'm sure.

I'm an drug trafficker at my school

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm an drug trafficker at my school

I'm a drunk looser at home-

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL.
Are you high again?
Not at all. It greatly strained Luke to telepathically summon every member of his Jedi Order from across the galaxy, while Kaan was able to do so with all 20,000 Sith Lords in his order and actually exert a mind trick influence through the telepathic contact, even over one of the stronger willed and more powerful members of his order.

y u do dis?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm a drunk looser at home-

An timing hero

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not at all. It greatly strained Luke to telepathically summon every member of his Jedi Order from across the galaxy, while Kaan was able to do so with all 20,000 Sith Lords in his order and actually exert a mind trick influence through the telepathic contact, even over one of the stronger willed and more powerful members of his order.

Mind posting the Luke quote?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Mind posting the Luke quote?

The call had arisen a few hours earlier, in the middle of a StealthX assault that had failed to turn hack the Chiss task force. The summons was coming from the direction of the known galaxy, a sense of beckoning and urgency that was growing more powerful by the hour, calling the Jedi Knights back toward Ossus, demanding they return to the Academy at once.

"We all feel it," Tahiri said. She furrowed her scarred brow, then turned to Tesar and Lowbacca. "At least I think we do."

The Barabel and the Wookiee nodded in agreement. "It iz hard to ignore," Tesar said.

"And we shouldn't try," Jacen replied. "Something bad must be happening for my uncle to summon us all like this. Even Luke Skywalker can't pull on the Force that hard without suffering for it."

...

Luke's entire body felt stiff and sore, his head was aching, and his hands were trembling. He tested his legs and found them a little wobbly.

"I'm fine," he said. His stomach felt as empty as space. "A little hungry, maybe."

"I'll bet." Continuing to hold his arm, Mara turned to leave the meditation pavilion. "Let's get you something to eat ... and some rest."

Luke did not follow her. "I can last another hour." Through the Force, he could feel nearly the entire Jedi order gathered in the lecture hall, waiting to learn why he had summoned them. "We need to do this now."

"Luke, you look like you've been hanging out in wampa caves again," Mara said. "You need to rest."

-Dark Nest III: The Swarm War

Did you guys know that Bane once raped the Bedlam Spirits?

Anyone have a quote for a time when Kaan telepathically communicated with all the Sith throughout the galaxy at once?

And for the feat to be comparable with Luke's they'd need to be spread throughout the galaxy and not just on a single planet.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
"Luke, you look like you've been hanging out in wampa caves again," Mara said. "You need to rest."

Stuff like this is why the EU novels are awful.

"He could sense his Master's summons in the Force, and he could not resist the beckoning much longer. Lord Kaan was calling them all, the entire Brotherhood."-Darkness Shared

The guy is Kaox Krul, and he's got some decent willpower, and Kaan's order has 20,000 Sith Lords.

Edit: and yes, the point is that he's summoning them from across the Galaxy to Ruusan I believe.

Interesting. Did not realize he did so. And yes, that was before Ruusan and when he was gathering them.I've read that awful story years ago. Nor did I realize there was 20,000 Sith Lords. No doubt some idiot writer wrote up that not realizing that both the Sith and Jedi Orders were in shambles at this point.

Still though, I'd question that makes him a Luke-tier telepath. But that is a different discussion.

Not all that comparable but that's a nice indication for Odan-Urr's 10,000 Jedi telepathic skype call.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The call had arisen a few hours earlier, in the middle of a StealthX assault that had failed to turn hack the Chiss task force. The summons was coming from the direction of the known galaxy, a sense of beckoning and urgency that was growing more powerful by the hour, calling the Jedi Knights back toward Ossus, demanding they return to the Academy at once.

"We all feel it," Tahiri said. She furrowed her scarred brow, then turned to Tesar and Lowbacca. "At least I think we do."

The Barabel and the Wookiee nodded in agreement. "It iz hard to ignore," Tesar said.

"And we shouldn't try," Jacen replied. "Something bad must be happening for my uncle to summon us all like this. Even Luke Skywalker can't pull on the Force that hard without suffering for it."

...

Luke's entire body felt stiff and sore, his head was aching, and his hands were trembling. He tested his legs and found them a little wobbly.

"I'm fine," he said. His stomach felt as empty as space. "A little hungry, maybe."

"I'll bet." Continuing to hold his arm, Mara turned to leave the meditation pavilion. "Let's get you something to eat ... and some rest."

Luke did not follow her. "I can last another hour." Through the Force, he could feel nearly the entire Jedi order gathered in the lecture hall, waiting to learn why he had summoned them. "We need to do this now."

"Luke, you look like you've been hanging out in wampa caves again," Mara said. "You need to rest."

-Dark Nest III: The Swarm War

Solid shit, but I'm still not sure this would put Kaan on Luke's tier because he matched one telepathic feat. Luke's sheer versatility is astonishing he has : erased memories, implanted memories, drained knowledge, reversing brain washing, made Vader feel intense pain with a teleketic burst, cloaked multiple gigantic ships simultaniously, and power to effectively create an entire illusion of a fleet of ships in the mind of one of the strongest willed characters in the mythos in Jacen Solo is still grounds for me to place Luke firmly above Kaan.

Plus, it can be argued that Luke was at the peak of his power telepathic power during LotF, and noticeably above his ealier Dark Nest trilogy self. Given Jacen showed himself to be more mentally adroit than Luke during that era, yet, Luke toyed with a more powerful Caedus' mutiple times through the entire arc with his telepathic deftness (IIRC)

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Solid shit, but I'm still not sure this would put Kaan on Luke's tier because he matched one telepathic feat. Luke's sheer versatility is astonishing he has : erased memories, implanted memories, drained knowledge, reversing brain washing, made Vader feel intense pain with a teleketic burst, cloaked multiple gigantic ships simultaniously, and power to effectively create an entire illusion of a fleet of ships in the mind of one of the strongest willed characters in the mythos in Jacen Solo is still grounds for me to place Luke firmly above Kaan.

Plus, it can be argued that Luke was at the peak of his power telepathic power during LotF, and noticeably above his ealier Dark Nest trilogy self. Given Jacen showed himself to be more mentally adroit than Luke during that era, yet, Luke toyed with a more powerful Caedus' mutiple times through the entire arc with his telepathic deftness (IIRC)
Fair enough, however this still proves that Kaan's own telepathic feat is rather immense.

Agreed.
You've certainly proved he's one of the most powerful telepaths in the mythos.

I see your logic here. Idk if I'd put either individually above Nox, however, and I'd personally say her Force advantage is large enough to overwhelm either individually, but Wrath isn't enough to tip it in team 2's favor. I'd hold both of team 1 above Wrath. Good thread none the less, but I'd concur that team 1 takes the win. Solid reasoning DMB

Lel, Nox isn't more powerful than Bane or Zannah.

Reasons?

Because their best showings are against vastly weaker opponents, and their casually being tooled by Revan on multiple occasions?

Revan ~ DE Sidious

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Reasons? Just curious
Team 2 have superior members, simple.

Comparing the Emperor's Wrath II and Darth Bane:

The Sith Warrior defeated some immensely powerful opponents to prove his mettle such as Darth Vengean, Sel Makor (entity), Lord Draahg and Darth Baras (augmented by the power of an entity). He was powerful and skilled enough to be chosen by the Emperor for the position of The Emperor's Wrath.

Darth Bane defeated Lord Kas'im (with difficulty) and lost to Darth Zannah. Other then these two, Darth Bane haven't been tested much.

Comparing Darth Nox and Darth Zannah:

Darth Zannah defeated powerful Darth Bane and Darth Nox defeated powerful Darth Thanaton. However, Darth Nox appears to have advantage in the field of Sith Sorcery; he managed to bind several Force ghosts to himself and can draw on their power to counter potent Dark Side powers. Darth Nox is also virtually immortal (the Force ghosts, bind to him, can prevent his demise and/or resurrect him).

Now, following assumptions can influence the outcome:

1. If we assume Darth Nox (with several Force ghosts bind to him), than he easily outguns Darth Zannah.

2. If we assume Darth Nox (without Force ghosts bind to him), he still remains a formidable opponent. He might still be capable of tackling Darth Zannah but I do not rule out the possibility of his defeat either.

Considering (1.); Team 2 wins comfortably

Considering (2.); depends upon who falls first.

Why don't you point out what makes Wrath a better duelist or Force user than Bane instead of pointing out the obvious truth that a war waging empire's warrior is going to be featured in more fights than the creator of an order based around secrecy and subterfuge.

^^^

Ranking from birth among the most elite in the Sith Empire, (sith warriors)'s deadly skills and command of the dark of the Force have become legendary. Lightsaber in hand, (Sith warrior) has carved a path of destruction through Republic foes and scheming Sith adversaries alike.
Path of Destruction
Better than Bane confirmed.

Unsurprisingly, I'm sure, none of what Legend posted really indicates the Wrath is comparable to Bane outside of probably physical strength.

Also, none of those trailer feats count imo.

Not until it's against someone in the PT/OT.

Bane's deteriorating physical strength, yep. Wrath is ****ed, lol

Yeah Bane literally has all of that by the end of POD/beginning of ROT
There was an air of menace about him, accentuated by his shaved head, his heavy brow, and the dark intensity of his eyes. This, even more than his forbidding black armor or the sinister hook-handled lightsaber dangling from his belt, marked him as a man of fearsome power: a true champion of the dark side of the Force.
-Darth Bane: Rule of Two
He's also noted as the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries, and as being more potent with the dark side than Lake Nath or the Sith Sorceress who devastated Ambria, and he was weakened by poison for the latter of the two.


And Bane collapsed a temple with one portion of a force wave and would've liquefied someone with the other portion of the force wave. Next!


So Vitiate was keeping that power subdued to a considerable extent, in much the same way his voice was weakened before HOT killed him.


A handful of steps from freedom, one of the men made the fatal mistake of glancing back over his shoulder to see whether their adversary was following. On a whim, Bane sent his lightsaber hurtling toward him with a casual toss. The spinning blade sliced through the air in a tight loop, crossing the expanse of the camp in a fraction of a second before swooping back to be caught in the waiting hand of its Master.

Two of the mercenaries vanished into the forest, crashing through the underbrush. The third-the one who had paused to look back- stood still as stone. A second later his head toppled forward from his shoulders to bounce and roll across the ground, severed from the cauterized stump of his neck by the crimson blade of Bane's thrown lightsaber. As if the fallen head were a signal, the rigid limbs of the decapitated corpse went suddenly limp, and it fell over sideways.
-Darth Bane: Rule of Two


I question the validity of the trailers as legends material in regards to the protag's abilities since we have never seen the wrath use stealth capabilities in combat during his story line.

But even taking this at face value, fooling one no-name Jedi with this power does not prove he can evade the senses of a Sith as powerful as Darth Bane, particularly when Bane as of POD has demonstrated an aptitude for probing for concealed traps with the Force.
later on in ROT, Bane demonstrates the casual ability to dispel such illusions of concealment, but I'm having too much fun using only POD/early ROT feats


Telepathy really won't factor into a fight against Bane, so this is pointless.


Bane drove a saberstaff wielding Kas'im into a desperate retreat, and Kas'im was the greatest duelist in the brotherhood of darkness, mastered all seven forms, then spent decades perfecting every single move and sequence of lightsaber combat (many sequences blended several forms at once). And this Kas'im would've near instantly stomped an earlier incarnation of Bane who soloed a dozen tuk'ata with his lightsaber skills alone while hungry and sleep depraved.


Prior to having training in the Force, Bane caught and completely stopped a punch from a heavily muscled cortosis miner and threw him over his head while exhausted, and he knocked out his leiutenant with a single punch. With a little training in the Force, Bane was knocking one of the more powerful apprentices in the Korriban academy to the ground with the Force of his strikes. Sirak at this point in time physically dominated this incarnation of Bane, staggering him with the Force of his blows while he was toying with him. This is important because after training a lot more, Bane ripped Sirak's saberstaff out of his hands with the force behind one of his blows.

Wrath's strength isn't going to tear through a strength based duelist like Bane.


Nothing there proves that the warrior's armor is lightsaber resistant, as few of the opponents he would come across actually possess lightsabers. Bane has had no trouble at all cutting through completely blaster proof armor like butter as of the very beginning of ROT.

And Bane's own durability is rather formidable, as he survived a ship crash that cut a kilometer long swath through the jungle and reduced his ship to a pile of scrap.


Yep, and Bane was the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries as of POD, was almost unanimously regarded by the brotherhood as its most powerful member, and was driving back the brotherhood's greatest duelist.

And keep in mind, every counter I have made I have done so using only feats from Path of Destruction or the very beginning of Rule of Two which takes place only a few days after Path of Destruction. This is nowhere near Bane's prime. If you want to convince me the Wrath can beat DOE Bane or is even on his level, you're going to have to do better than that.

Bane and Zannah take it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah Bane literally has all of that by the end of POD/beginning of ROT
There was an air of menace about him, accentuated by his shaved head, his heavy brow, and the dark intensity of his eyes. This, even more than his forbidding black armor or the sinister hook-handled lightsaber dangling from his belt, marked him as a man of fearsome power: a true champion of the dark side of the Force.
-Darth Bane: Rule of Two
Noted

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's also noted as the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries, and as being more potent with the dark side than Lake Nath or the Sith Sorceress who devastated Ambria, and he was weakened by poison for the latter of the two.
Noted

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Bane collapsed a temple with one portion of a force wave and would've liquefied someone with the other portion of the force wave. Next!
What do you mean by this?

Darth Bane unleashed a Force-wave that packed sufficient kinetic energy to destroy an ancient building and disintegrate a virtually defenseless being but Lord Kas'im was not virtually defenseless.

Lord Kas'im experienced the same kinetic energy that the Rakatan Temple experienced. You understand how the Force-wave manifests?

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane - Path of Destruction

The aforementioned feat is a good indicator of raw power wielded by Darth Bane but it is useless to cite in the same breath. If Darth Bane had mortally wounded Lord Kas'im with his Force-wave, then I could see your point. However, Lord Kas'im became a victim of the circumstances:

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane - Path of Destruction

---

FYI: A powerful Force-user can one-shot (kill) a virtually defenseless being with a mere Force-push. And Force-wave is relatively more potent expression of telekinesis.

---

Collapsing structures (and similar stuff) are a spectacle to behold and worth boasting about in debates but such feats are seldom practical or meaningful in a confrontation against powerful Force-users.

Example 1:

Satele Shan disintegrated a blast door with a touch and proceeded to confront a member of the Dark Council (i.e. Darth Mehkis). We learn (later) that Darth Mehkis was able to avoid arrest.

Example 2:

Two members of the Dark Council (Darths Victun and Qalar) declared a Kaggath to settle their long-term rivalry; they literally ruined the setting (i.e. the original Citadel of Dromund Kaas) with their powers but none of them managed to best the other in the end.

Example 3:

Valkorion (in his most vulnerable condition) was strong enough to collapse a building but such raw power was insufficient to humble Hero of Tython.

---

If Darth Bane couldn't dominate/kill Lord Kas'im with his telekinetic powers, I don't see how he can achieve a breakthrough against the Emperor's Wrath with the same. Fanciful interpretations fail to do justice to your argument.

On the other hand, the Emperor's Wrath could affect another powerhouse (e.g. Lord Draahg) with his telekinetic powers. Based on this meaningful demonstration, I can safely infer that the Emperor's Wrath is strong enough to affect the likes of Darth Bane with his telekinetic powers.

Case closed.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So Vitiate was keeping that power subdued to a considerable extent, in much the same way his voice was weakened before HOT killed him.
Fair enough

Originally posted by Emperordmb
A handful of steps from freedom, one of the men made the fatal mistake of glancing back over his shoulder to see whether their adversary was following. On a whim, Bane sent his lightsaber hurtling toward him with a casual toss. The spinning blade sliced through the air in a tight loop, crossing the expanse of the camp in a fraction of a second before swooping back to be caught in the waiting hand of its Master.

Two of the mercenaries vanished into the forest, crashing through the underbrush. The third-the one who had paused to look back- stood still as stone. A second later his head toppled forward from his shoulders to bounce and roll across the ground, severed from the cauterized stump of his neck by the crimson blade of Bane's thrown lightsaber. As if the fallen head were a signal, the rigid limbs of the decapitated corpse went suddenly limp, and it fell over sideways.
-Darth Bane: Rule of Two
Fair enough

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I question the validity of the trailers as legends material in regards to the protag's abilities since we have never seen the wrath use stealth capabilities in combat during his story line.

But even taking this at face value, fooling one no-name Jedi with this power does not prove he can evade the senses of a Sith as powerful as Darth Bane, particularly when Bane as of POD has demonstrated an aptitude for probing for concealed traps with the Force.
later on in ROT, Bane demonstrates the casual ability to dispel such illusions of concealment, but I'm having too much fun using only POD/early ROT feats
The talents of the Emperor's Wrath have not been canonized so far; therefore, we are left with ambiguities in this case. It isn't wise to dismiss an officially advertised talent of a character, IMO. Revan's example is in front of you; his known talents fully complement his story.

Darth Bane might be very good in evaluating his surroundings, but we are talking about stealth capabilities of an equal and/or superior opponent.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Telepathy really won't factor into a fight against Bane, so this is pointless.
It is useful against Darth Zannah nonetheless, should we go down this route.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane drove a saberstaff wielding Kas'im into a desperate retreat, and Kas'im was the greatest duelist in the brotherhood of darkness, mastered all seven forms, then spent decades perfecting every single move and sequence of lightsaber combat (many sequences blended several forms at once). And this Kas'im would've near instantly stomped an earlier incarnation of Bane who soloed a dozen tuk'ata with his lightsaber skills alone while hungry and sleep depraved.
I am fully aware of the fact that Lord Kas'im was a master swordsman. However, you are describing Darth Bane's opinion about his skills.

Doesn't it makes you wonder that Lord kas'im was supposedly unparalleled in Jedi dueling arts yet Darth Bane was able to stalemate him without considerable experience?

On the other hand, the Emperor's Wrath is officially implied to possess unparalleled dueling skills. The statement is not even era-specific. On top of arguably unparalleled dueling skills, the Emperor's Wrath have considerable experience under his belt.

You really cannot establish Darth Bane's superiority in this area, period.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Prior to having training in the Force, Bane caught and completely stopped a punch from a heavily muscled cortosis miner and threw him over his head while exhausted, and he knocked out his leiutenant with a single punch. With a little training in the Force, Bane was knocking one of the more powerful apprentices in the Korriban academy to the ground with the Force of his strikes. Sirak at this point in time physically dominated this incarnation of Bane, staggering him with the Force of his blows while he was toying with him. This is important because after training a lot more, Bane ripped Sirak's saberstaff out of his hands with the force behind one of his blows.

Wrath's strength isn't going to tear through a strength based duelist like Bane.
It is still a lesser showing then literally launching a Jedi Knight in the air with physical blows.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Nothing there proves that the warrior's armor is lightsaber resistant, as few of the opponents he would come across actually possess lightsabers. Bane has had no trouble at all cutting through completely blaster proof armor like butter as of the very beginning of ROT.
Here:

Thick durasteel armor shields warriors from devastating attacks.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Body armor of the Emperor's Wrath might not be (100%) Lightsaber-resistant but it would be durable enough to withstand some blows and reduce the risk of suffering a serious injury during a confrontation.

For example, the body armor of Darth Malgus enabled him to endure some cuts and stabs during confrontations that might have been nearly fatal otherwise:

He must have sensed his danger at the last moment for he slid partially aside. Still, the green line of Master Zallow's blade pierced his armor and his side and elicited a snarl of pain and rage. Before Aryn could follow up, Malgus drove an open hand into the side of her face.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Also, it is foolish to assume that the Emperor's Wrath encountered a few Lightsaber-wielding foes. His lived in a different era under vastly different circumstances than Darth Bane.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Bane's own durability is rather formidable, as he survived a ship crash that cut a kilometer long swath through the jungle and reduced his ship to a pile of scrap.
When did this happen? Also, this could be sheer luck on his part.

People have walked unscathed from terrible accidents in real life.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yep, and Bane was the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries as of POD, was almost unanimously regarded by the brotherhood as its most powerful member, and was driving back the brotherhood's greatest duelist.
There aren't many centuries between the events of SWTOR and Rule of Two. Also, Darth Bane might be the strongest Sith since the demise of reconstitutend ancient Sith Empire but this doesn't implies that he didn't had rivals earlier.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And keep in mind, every counter I have made I have done so using only feats from Path of Destruction or the very beginning of Rule of Two which takes place only a few days after Path of Destruction. This is nowhere near Bane's prime. If you want to convince me the Wrath can beat DOE Bane or is even on his level, you're going to have to do better than that.
Darth Bane's showings on Lehon are amped by the setting, my friend. He would have become more powerful afterwards but his growth in power isn't to a degree that he puts his showings in Lehon to shame.

I expect Darth Bane, at his prime, to have sufficient raw power to collapse a building in a neutral setting and affect a number of powerful Force-users with his powers. But nothing grand from him. He isn't in the league of elites like Revan and Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What do you mean by this?

Darth Bane unleashed a Force-wave that packed sufficient kinetic energy to destroy an ancient building and disintegrate a virtually defenseless being but Lord Kas'im was not virtually defenseless.

Lord Kas'im experienced the same kinetic energy that the Rakatan Temple experienced. You understand how the Force-wave manifests?

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane - Path of Destruction

The aforementioned feat is a good indicator of raw power wielded by Darth Bane but it is useless to cite in the same breath. If Darth Bane had mortally wounded Lord Kas'im with his Force-wave, then I could see your point. However, Lord Kas'im became a victim of the circumstances:

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane - Path of Destruction

---

FYI: A powerful Force-user can one-shot (kill) a virtually defenseless being with a mere Force-push. And Force-wave is relatively more potent expression of telekinesis.

---

Collapsing structures (and similar stuff) are a spectacle to behold and worth boasting about in debates but such feats are seldom practical or meaningful in a confrontation against powerful Force-users.

Example 1:

Satele Shan disintegrated a blast door with a touch and proceeded to confront a member of the Dark Council (i.e. Darth Mehkis). We learn (later) that Darth Mehkis was able to avoid arrest.

Example 2:

Two members of the Dark Council (Darths Victun and Qalar) declared a Kaggath to settle their long-term rivalry; they literally ruined the setting (i.e. the original Citadel of Dromund Kaas) with their powers but none of them managed to best the other in the end.

Example 3:

Valkorion (in his most vulnerable condition) was strong enough to collapse a building but such raw power was insufficient to humble Hero of Tython.

---

If Darth Bane couldn't dominate/kill Lord Kas'im with his telekinetic powers, I don't see how he can achieve a breakthrough against the Emperor's Wrath with the same. Fanciful interpretations fail to do justice to your argument.

On the other hand, the Emperor's Wrath could affect another powerhouse (e.g. Lord Draahg) with his telekinetic powers. Based on this meaningful demonstration, I can safely infer that the Emperor's Wrath is strong enough to affect the likes of Darth Bane with his telekinetic powers.

Case closed.
Yes several powerful Force users can kill an opponent without a force barrier via telekinesis. Literally liquidating them is a completely different matter entirely. And it's extremely likely that Bane was trying to collapse the temple on him rather than kill him directly with telekinesis.

Many people try to argue Kas'im's defenses as proof that Bane's power is inapplicable, but the truth of the matter is that Kas'im just has very good Force defenses.

Collapsing the temple of the ancients is still a feat that surpasses anything the Wrath has ever done with his powers.

And no, the Wrath pushing Draahg is certainly not proof that he can affect Bane with telekinesis because Draahg has literally nothing putting him on Bane's level in Force power (Bane is more potent than Lake Nath), telekinesis (Bane collapsed the temple of the ancients), or Force defenses (Bane shielded himself from atmospheric reentry).

By that logic, Bane can ragdoll Wrath because he could do so to Qordis and Yevra, two Sith Masters. And shit, while we're at it, Githany has shielded herself from the large explosion of a vehicle she was sitting on and Kaan could've crushed her like a bug with the Force, and Kaan knew he would be absolutely no match for Bane in a contest of the Force.

And going into later on feats, Bane as of ROT after losing his orbalisks while too injured to stand could've snapped Zannah's neck in two with the Force if he wished, and Zannah at this point has already shielded herself from a lightning storm which devastated the landscape of Ruusan, snapped two Jedi's necks, and disintegrated her cousin's arm, and is also implied to have power comparable to Lake Nath)

The talents of the Emperor's Wrath have not been canonized so far; therefore, we are left with ambiguities in this case. It isn't wise to dismiss an officially advertised talent of a character, IMO. Revan's example is in front of you; his known talents fully complement his story.

Darth Bane might be very good in evaluating his surroundings, but we are talking about stealth capabilities of an equal and/or superior opponent.
1. He has never demonstrated this stealth against an opponent even nearing Bane's level or his own.
2. If we're counting the trailer as legit he's only used this ability once and just about never makes use of this ability in combat.
3. The trailer shouldn't be taken as legit because various segments of the trailers and progressions contradict each other. In the trailers and progressions, the protags are shown as varying species and varying specializations. This power, if it can even be counted at all, is only attributed to the marauder class, and we don't know if the Wrath is a marauder or juggernaut. Could very well be either one.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am fully aware of the fact that Lord Kas'im was a master swordsman. However, you are describing Darth Bane's opinion about his skills.

Doesn't it makes you wonder that Lord kas'im was supposedly unparalleled in Jedi dueling arts yet Darth Bane was able to stalemate him without considerable experience?
Kas'im mastering the Forms of lightsaber combat and spending decades perfecting every move and sequence is not opinion it's fact. And Bane sabersoloing a dozen Tuk'ata at a point in time at which Kas'im would've slaughtered him is also fact. And Kas'im being viewed as the greatest duelist in the Sith Order is corroborated by multiple opinions, so it's hardly invalid.

And you are arguing Bane defeating Kas'im isn't that impressive because Kas'im wasn't good enough to not be beat by Bane. You do realize the inherently flawed circular logic you are trying to push right? And so what if Bane is relatively inexperienced by that point in time, the dude's a prodigy, already has master swordsmen level feats before massive improvement, is comparable in power to the concentrated dark side energies of lake nath, and is the most powerful dark lord in centuries, and has attained massive amounts of knowledge from the holocron of the great Revan you've been wanking at every chance you got in your post.

And the fact that you're basing this off of Bane's inexperience is laughably ironic considering the fact that the protags do crap like slay the beast of marka ragnos (wrath) or defeat Khem Val and Skotia (Nox) extremely soon after beginning their training. You do realize that by this logic none of Wrath or Nox's opponents are too impressive since they defeat them without much experience... right?

This entire point you are making about why defeating Kas'im isn't as impressive as I am arguing is based around circular logic (which is always inherently wrong) and the belief that a lack of experience puts an insurmountable limit on how powerful one can be (which is an argument that really can't be used by someone championing a TOR protagonist).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On the other hand, the Emperor's Wrath is officially implied to possess unparalleled dueling skills. The statement is not even era-specific. On top of arguably unparalleled dueling skills, the Emperor's Wrath have considerable experience under his belt.
Officially implied? Not officially implied!
Could you provide the quote? And unless the quote says in history, then I highly doubt a quote from a TOR source can be applied to all of galactic history.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You really cannot establish Darth Bane's superiority in this area, period.
Except I can given that Kas'im is a better duelist than anyone the Wrath has demonstrated superiority over, and Bane did so waaay pre-prime. And if you can name a better duelist the Wrath has defeated I'll be willing to listen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is still a lesser showing then literally launching a Jedi Knight in the air with physical blows.
Arguable considering we have no knowledge of the Jedi Knight's own physical strength. But if you want to obsess over physicality, name a speed feat for the Wrath comparable to Bane moving faster than a room of near-Sith Masters can even see.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here:

Thick durasteel armor shields warriors from devastating attacks.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Body armor of the Emperor's Wrath might not be (100%) Lightsaber-resistant but it would be durable enough to withstand some blows and reduce the risk of suffering a serious injury during a confrontation.

For example, the body armor of Darth Malgus enabled him to endure some cuts and stabs during confrontations that might have been nearly fatal otherwise:

He must have sensed his danger at the last moment for he slid partially aside. Still, the green line of Master Zallow's blade pierced his armor and his side and elicited a snarl of pain and rage. Before Aryn could follow up, Malgus drove an open hand into the side of her face.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived
This is assuming the Wrath's armor is as good as Malgus's first of all, and secondly, POD Bane wears armor as well, ROT Bane wears Orbalisk armor, and DOE Bane can, while drugged, instantly throw up a cocoon of energy around his body that can repel lightsaber strikes. This really won't be an issue for him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, it is foolish to assume that the Emperor's Wrath encountered a few Lightsaber-wielding foes. His lived in a different era under vastly different circumstances than Darth Bane.
Few relative to the much much larger number of non-lightsaber wielding foes he must have encountered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When did this happen? Also, this could be sheer luck on his part.

People have walked unscathed from terrible accidents in real life.
When he crash landed on Dxun, and it wasn't sheer luck considering he was being repeatedly thrown around and slammed against the walls of the cockpit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There aren't many centuries between the events of SWTOR and Rule of Two. Also, Darth Bane might be the strongest Sith since the demise of reconstitutend ancient Sith Empire but this doesn't implies that he didn't had rivals earlier.
You're saying the Wrath's position among the Sith puts him above Bane when Bane is the most powerful Sith of his time and centuries prior. The Wrath's position hardly proves his superiority here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Bane's showings on Lehon are amped by the setting, my friend. He would have become more powerful afterwards but his growth in power isn't to a degree that he puts his showings in Lehon to shame.

I expect Darth Bane, at his prime, to have sufficient raw power to collapse a building in a neutral setting and affect a number of powerful Force-users with his powers.
Except his growth in power kinda does tbh. Even as of the very beginning of ROT when he had two orbalisks affixed to his body, he could draw on them for more power than he had ever known before, which includes when he was on Lehon. With an additional decade's worth of experience, study of Freedon Nadd's knowledge, further study of Darth Revan's knowledge, and his body being almost completely covered in orbalisks, at the tail end of his orbalisk infestation Bane would've been substantially more powerful than he was at the very beginning with only two orbalisks. Bane as of the end of the tail end of his orbalisk infestation would benefit from the powerful force augmentation that comes from such power and the immense physical augmentation stemming from the orbalisk fluids being metabolized in Bane's bloodstream, yet Bane as of DOE has Force augmentation outstripping both of those things combined, attesting to the fact that DOE Bane is even more powerful in the Force than he was at the end of his orbalisk infestation.

Bane was the most powerful Sith in an era that came after the fall of Kun's brotherhood/Vitiate's EMPIRE which produced no one notable as a Sith lord. Its hardly as good as an accoladed as its wanked to be.

It's two millennia...

In a sort of "canonical" sense (I'm fully aware TOR is Legends), when considering powers and feats, you take into account both advanced classes. For example, Nox (in a "canonical" sense) wields a saberstaff and is an amazing saber duelist with training in the arts of the Sith Assassin while still retaining the skills and mastery of a Sith Sorcerer. In the case of Wrath II, we assume that the Wrath wields two lightsabers and utilizes small personal shield generators and heavy protective armor while retaining mastery of the forms known by both advanced classes.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
In a sort of "canonical" sense (I'm fully aware TOR is Legends), when considering powers and feats, you take into account both advanced classes. For example, Nox (in a "canonical" sense) wields a saberstaff and is an amazing saber duelist with training in the arts of the Sith Assassin while still retaining the skills and mastery of a Sith Sorcerer. In the case of Wrath II, we assume that the Wrath wields two lightsabers and utilizes small personal shield generators and heavy protective armor while retaining mastery of the forms known by both advanced classes.
I do find it hard to believe Wrath knows ****ing stealth when he never uses it at all in the game. Not in cutscenes, and not even as an ability you can use.

Actually, the Marauder class has the cloak. I'll have to check for the exact name but the Marauder has it.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Actually, the Marauder class has the cloak. I'll have to check for the exact name but the Marauder has it.
Really?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Really?

Force Camoglage

Yeah, Wrath has stealth.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes several powerful Force users can kill an opponent without a force barrier via telekinesis. Literally liquidating them is a completely different matter entirely. And it's extremely likely that Bane was trying to collapse the temple on him rather than kill him directly with telekinesis.
It doesn't matters if a Force power is capable of breaking bones or liquidating flesh of a virtually defenseless being, its effectiveness against a powerful Force-user matters in the end.

For the sake of argument, consider this; Darth Plagueis unleashed a Force-wave on some assassins, nearly atomizing them with it. However, do you think that the same power would nearly atomize Darth Bane?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Many people try to argue Kas'im's defenses as proof that Bane's power is inapplicable, but the truth of the matter is that Kas'im just has very good Force defenses.
Lord Kas'im wasn't renowned for his power or command of the Dark Side, but for his dueling skills. However, I perceive him as an above-average Force-user of the mythos. Credit where due.

My point of contention is that Lord Kas'im proved that a powerful Force-user would be capable of withstanding telekinetic powers of Darth Bane. I believe that the Emperor's Wrath is better then Lord Kas'im.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Collapsing the temple of the ancients is still a feat that surpasses anything the Wrath has ever done with his powers.
We are talking about a character whose capabilities are largely ambiguous and open to interpretation. Even the gender of this character is unknown at the moment. Based on the hype-factor, I expect the Sith Warrior to be among the standouts and capable of spectacular showings. Lesser Force-users have wrecked large structures with their powers FYI.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And no, the Wrath pushing Draahg is certainly not proof that he can affect Bane with telekinesis because Draahg has literally nothing putting him on Bane's level in Force power (Bane is more potent than Lake Nath), telekinesis (Bane collapsed the temple of the ancients), or Force defenses (Bane shielded himself from atmospheric reentry).
You need to broaden your judgment criteria and knowledge. You need to understand the importance of power-scaling and hype factor.

I am not sure about what to make of Lake Nath based point, it is meaningless.

Just like many TOR era characters, Lord Draahg is largely unknown in the context of abilities and talents. However, even limited information and showings imply that he was among the most powerful Sith; powerful and talented enough to be perceived as an asset by members of the Dark Council and challenge them in combat situations.

We can compare Lord Draahg and Darth Bane in three areas: Force Drain powers, strength and ability to multi-task during combat situations. In all areas, Lord Draahg have relatively superior showings. See below.

Lord Draahg utterly dominated Darth Vowrawn with his powers and would have eventually disintegrated him:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4496152-3501974219-vqo5w.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4496159-7030469460-vn2pY.gif

"In minutes, the great Darth Vowrawn will disintegrate." (Lord Draahg)

Do keep in mind that Lord Draahg fought two Sith Lords (i.e. the Sith Warrior and Darth Vowrawn) simultaneously, trapping the latter in a web of Death Field while fending off attacks of the Sith Warrior. Even though the Sith Warrior prevailed in the end, Lord Draahg was doing more work. Lord Draahg's overconfidence proved to be his undoing however.

Granted that Darth Vowrawn was past his prime during this time but he was still an above-average Sith. And a Sith Lord, powerful enough to utterly disintegrate Darth Vowrawn with sheer command of the Dark Side while (simultaneously) fending off the attacks of another, would not be less then an elite.

Keep in mind that Death Field (and similar manifestations) are one of the most difficult and taxing techniques to perform during combat situations. When Darth Bane conjured a manifestation of Death Field to defeat some cultists in a confrontation, he managed to sustain it by drawing on the power of a nearby nexus and feeding on the life-force of the victims. Darth Bane could not sustain this Force power on his own.

Moreover, I don't recall Darth Bane being able to contend with two powerful foes and multi-task on the same level as Lord Draahg managed to.

In addition to the above, Lord Draahg tolerated injuries that would have felled a lesser Sith; multiple Lightsaber stabs/cuts and 3rd degree burns. In each case, Lord Draahg was battle-capable. Only one method stopped him; severing his head from his body. You think that Darth Bane have comparable tolerance?

As far as telekinesis is concerned, I don't think that Lord Draahg would be lacking in this area by virtue of his considerable raw power.

Ponder over following revelations for a moment:

As the chosen apprentice of both Baras and Vengean, he possesses a breadth of knowledge and a depth of power few others can claim. (Taken from SWTOR)

-

"Baras held back when training you, but he taught me everything. And Darth Vengean showed me dark side secrets even Baras doesn't know." (Lord Draahg)

-

"Apologies, my lord. The attack was sudden. Unknown assailant, very powerful. Way out of our league, my lord. Lucky we got out of there in on piece." (Lieutenant Pierce)

-

Lord Draahg isn't inferior to the likes of Darth Bane and even the Sith Warror. Lord Draahg and the Sith Warrior were (more or less) equals or in the same TIER.

In the nutshell, the Sith Warrior affecting Lord Draahg with his powers, is sufficient to infer the same in the case of Darth Bane. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
By that logic, Bane can ragdoll Wrath because he could do so to Qordis and Yevra, two Sith Masters. And shit, while we're at it, Githany has shielded herself from the large explosion of a vehicle she was sitting on and Kaan could've crushed her like a bug with the Force, and Kaan knew he would be absolutely no match for Bane in a contest of the Force.
Don't get me started on the quality of Brotherhood Sith.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And going into later on feats, Bane as of ROT after losing his orbalisks while too injured to stand could've snapped Zannah's neck in two with the Force if he wished, and Zannah at this point has already shielded herself from a lightning storm which devastated the landscape of Ruusan, snapped two Jedi's necks, and disintegrated her cousin's arm, and is also implied to have power comparable to Lake Nath)
Context?

Darth Zannah wasn't strong enough to challenge Darth Bane till the end.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. He has never demonstrated this stealth against an opponent even nearing Bane's level or his own.
I acknowledge the ambiguity factor in this matter but you don't expect a champion of the Dark Side to threaten Darth Bane with this talent?

Darth Bane doesn't have infallible senses. Under the right circumstances, any Force-user can be back-stabbed.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
2. If we're counting the trailer as legit he's only used this ability once and just about never makes use of this ability in combat.
We don't know how the Sith Warrior fought in general or what methods he used to defeat each notable opponent. However, as the Sith Warrior, he is expected to be excellent in the matters of combat and not shy away from a challenge.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
This is assuming the Wrath's armor is as good as Malgus's first of all, and secondly, POD Bane wears armor as well, ROT Bane wears Orbalisk armor, and DOE Bane can, while drugged, instantly throw up a cocoon of energy around his body that can repel lightsaber strikes. This really won't be an issue for him.
As the Emperor's Wrath, you don't think that he would have access to resources not available to others? Apply common sense, my friend.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Few relative to the much much larger number of non-lightsaber wielding foes he must have encountered.
This is the norm. However, the Emperor's Wrath is much more battle-tested then Darth Bane.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When he crash landed on Dxun, and it wasn't sheer luck considering he was being repeatedly thrown around and slammed against the walls of the cockpit.
Aryn Leener survived a 50 km fall from the atmosphere to the surface of the planet, protecting her companion from harm in the process. She suffered minor injuries.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You're saying the Wrath's position among the Sith puts him above Bane when Bane is the most powerful Sith of his time and centuries prior. The Wrath's position hardly proves his superiority here.
Covered above.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except his growth in power kinda does tbh. Even as of the very beginning of ROT when he had two orbalisks affixed to his body, he could draw on them for more power than he had ever known before, which includes when he was on Lehon. With an additional decade's worth of experience, study of Freedon Nadd's knowledge, further study of Darth Revan's knowledge, and his body being almost completely covered in orbalisks, at the tail end of his orbalisk infestation Bane would've been substantially more powerful than he was at the very beginning with only two orbalisks. Bane as of the end of the tail end of his orbalisk infestation would benefit from the powerful force augmentation that comes from such power and the immense physical augmentation stemming from the orbalisk fluids being metabolized in Bane's bloodstream, yet Bane as of DOE has Force augmentation outstripping both of those things combined, attesting to the fact that DOE Bane is even more powerful in the Force than he was at the end of his orbalisk infestation.
This is the revelation:

In addition to his miraculous healing abilities, he felt stronger than he ever had. His senses were keener, his reflexes quicker.

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Darth Bane peaked in power and capabilities with orbalisks (exceeding his raw power on Lehon) but began to decline during the events of Dynasty of Evil. The orbalisks offered certain advantages but they were killing Darth Bane.

More:

They healed him, made him physically stronger, and protected him against all manner of weapons. Now he began to question that belief. While it was true that he could channel his power through the creatures for a temporary increase in his abilities, over the long term they might actually be weakening him. They were constantly feeding on the dark side energies that flowed through his veins. Was it possible that, after a decade of infestation, his ability to draw upon the Force had been subtly diminished?

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Nothing implies substantial growth in power in these revelations irrespective of the number of orbalisks attached to the Sith Lord.

This is what I said earlier:

"I expect Darth Bane, at his prime, to have sufficient raw power to collapse a building in a neutral setting and affect a number of powerful Force-users with his powers. But nothing grand from him. He isn't in the league of elites like Revan and Yoda."

My assessment is accurate.

Do pay attention to my assessment of Lord Draahg however.