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Force, sabers, all out

Vaylin, Malak, Hmmmm... Vaylin?

ROFLMAO Vaylin rapes him and his entire empire.

In all seriousness Malak stands no chance whatsoever save sabers. He wins sabers but it's actually laughable enough to consider him doing anything in Force & all-out I actually did irl

If we go by Drew's word, that Darth Revan is comparable to TOR Revan, then this would be a good fight.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-598919-drew-karpyshyns-revan-kotor-vs-tor-revelation.html

Yeah but Drew always dodges who is stronger than who questions with statements about how everything matters and about how one character or the other could win on any given day and how it's not clear-cut at all or something.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah but Drew always dodges who is stronger than who questions with statements about how everything matters and about how one character or the other could win on any given day and how it's not clear-cut at all or something.

He's right tho. In almost all cases at least

Not seeing why Malak can't take an all out here when Senya did. Its obvious her Force powers aren't particularly combat effective.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not seeing why Malak can't take an all out here when Senya did. Its obvious her Force powers aren't particularly combat effective.

This, her TK feats don't at all compare to her combat feats.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not seeing why Malak can't take an all out here when Senya did. Its obvious her Force powers aren't particularly combat effective.
So why were protags running away from her in Chapter 3? Your assertion doesn't makes sense.

Vaylin killed numerous individuals with her powers. You can see two examples here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/vaylin-respect-thread/117531/

Senya is no pushover herself. She literally ragdolled the Outlander with her telekinetic powers (though her intent was to prevent a fight between the Outlander and Vaylin).

Originally posted by Tondemonai
He's right tho. In almost all cases at least

He's right in terms of storytelling, but that doesn't exactly help us at all in versus threads.

Mr. Drew doesn't have a problem in defining power level of characters in his works. However, he refrains from answering questions about who is stronger then whom in private communication for reasons he knows best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So why were protags running away from her in Chapter 3? Your assertion doesn't makes sense.

Because not ten minutes before they were dying from carbonite poisoning over a five year period? Which, surprisingly enough, is the reason given in game.

LMFAO @ TK not being combat applicable. True retardation.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This, her TK feats don't at all compare to her combat feats.

Did you forget how to read, Sinious?

Originally posted by Sinious
LMFAO @ TK not being combat applicable. True retardation.

Define irony.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because not ten minutes before they were dying from carbonite poisoning over a five year period? Which, surprisingly enough, is the reason given in game. Essentially.

Yeah Malak doesn't really have any truly impressive Force feats to his name. And saberwise, he's a very capable duelist, enough to give KOTOR Revan a run for his money, but I don't see how he's beating Vaylin all-out.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mr. Drew doesn't have a problem in defining power level of characters in his works. However, he refrains from answering questions about who is stronger then whom in private communication for reasons he knows best.
I suppose it's for the best. Otherwise Ant would email him so many loaded questions lol, and nobody would leave him alone lol.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yeah Malak doesn't really have any truly impressive Force feats to his name. And saberwise, he's a very capable duelist, enough to give KOTOR Revan a run for his money, but I don't see how he's beating Vaylin all-out.
But Senya does? Lulz.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But Senya does? Lulz.

I never said anything about Senya. You don't agree Malak doesn't have impressive feats? Vaylin's raw power is immense, I don't think Malak would be able to cope.

Okay, but going by that logic, Senya shouldn't be able to defeat Vaylin, but that's obviously not true, and given Senya's zero impressive feats, I really don't think it matters as much as you think it does.

Why shouldn't Senya be able to beat her? Instead pf taking it as a negative for Vaylin, why not have it as a positive for Senya? Its basically all we can take as a valid indication of her abilities, which are apparently > Vaylin's.

Senya isn't powerful than Malak is the point.

Says what?

Says Freshest and we all know he's never wrong...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Says what?
Says the fact that Malak has better feats, accolades, and hype in literally all categories? What has Senya done that would put her above Malak in anything?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Says the fact that Malak has better feats, accolades, and hype in literally all categories? What has Senya done that would put her above Malak in anything?

Better feats unamped? What are you talking about? Defeating Vaylin.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Says the fact that Malak has better feats, accolades, and hype in literally all categories? What has Senya done that would put her above Malak in anything?

Defeating Vaylin.

That's some dumb as **** circular logic. Defeating Vaylin is only impressive if Vaylin has actual combat feats. She doesn't, especially when next to zero force abilities were used in the single fight we've seen her in. There's also the fact that Senya was absolutely shit on my Heskal moments before he was shit on by the Outlander, and Outlander you're trying to argue is weaker than Vaylin. Unamped Malak is winning wars with his lightsaber skills, defeating a Revan that was still more powerful than anyone in the Jedi Order, and was still commanding other Sith you like to wank like Sion, Nihilus, and Traya, who everyone conveniently likes to forget were still Sith while Malak was around. Senya has absolutely nothing under her belt, and neither does Vaylin that actually makes them good combatants, which was the point being made.

Yeah people need to stop assuming Vaylin's super duper out of combat TK feats translate into overwhelming ability as a combatant.

Considering that Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child, clearly they do not. Malak is more than capable enough as a duelist and a Force user to replicate Senya's showing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's some dumb as **** circular logic. Defeating Vaylin is only impressive if Vaylin has actual combat feats. She doesn't, especially when next to zero force abilities were used in the single fight we've seen her in. There's also the fact that Senya was absolutely shit on my Heskal moments before he was shit on by the Outlander, and Outlander you're trying to argue is weaker than Vaylin. Unamped Malak is winning wars with his lightsaber skills, defeating a Revan that was still more powerful than anyone in the Jedi Order, and was still commanding other Sith you like to wank like Sion, Nihilus, and Traya, who everyone conveniently likes to forget were still Sith while Malak was around. Senya has absolutely nothing under her belt, and neither does Vaylin that actually makes them good combatants, which was the point being made.

Nihilus and Kreia weren't Sith under Revan. 0-o

I'm not entirely sure myself as the RT has been taken down but I believed Vaylin took out a group of zakuul knights with her lightsaber skills alone. Her TK feats are simply better though then anything Malak's demonstrated amped or unamped.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah people need to stop assuming Vaylin's super duper out of combat TK feats translate into overwhelming ability as a combatant.

Considering that Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child, clearly they do not. Malak is more than capable enough as a duelist and a Force user to replicate Senya's showing.

How exactly did Senya defeat her? Through the force or lightsaber combat. I thought it had been with a lightsaber.

She evades her telekinetic attacks and yeah, defeats her through lightsaber combat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8SckbeBw8k&t=1m55s

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nihilus and Kreia weren't Sith under Revan. 0-o

The very first thing Revan did was recruit Kreia and take over Malachor when he returned, kek. Did you even play the game?

And Vaylin can kill Knights who sole purpose in life is to die for her and her brother? Golly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The very first thing Revan did was recruit Kreia and take over Malachor when he returned, kek. Did you even play the game?

And Vaylin can kill Knights who sole purpose in life is to die for her and her brother? Golly.

Oh lol. No I've never played the game. Was Nihilus apart of said Sith Empire at the time?

Are you suggesting the knights an hero'ed for her?

Edit: Nevermind. Apparently you have to make up stuff to actually support your arguments. xD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The very first thing Revan did was recruit Kreia and take over Malachor when he returned, kek. Did you even play the game? What? No. Kreia discovered Malachor V after Revan left for the Unknown Regions a second time, discovered his old Sith academy, and attempted to continue his legacy.

Darth Traya and Revan never met.

EDIT: Nihilus' origins are ambiguous, but he only became what he is under Traya and its implied he was left stranded on Malachor V since the MSG event.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What? No. Kreia discovered Malachor V after Revan left for the Unknown Regions a second time, discovered his old Sith academy, and attempted to continue his legacy.

Darth Traya and Revan never met.

EDIT: Nihilus' origins are ambiguous, but he only became what he is under Traya and its implied he was left stranded on Malachor V since the MSG event.
Mical says Revan went back to Traya after the Mandalorian Wars, while Kreia says Revan came to her to learn how to leave the Jedi, something he wouldn't do while championing the Jedi. Nihilus was feeding on Malachor, and that means students. I highly doubt Revan would let him roam free.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's some dumb as **** circular logic. Defeating Vaylin is only impressive if Vaylin has actual combat feats. She doesn't, especially when next to zero force abilities were used in the single fight we've seen her in. There's also the fact that Senya was absolutely shit on my Heskal moments before he was shit on by the Outlander, and Outlander you're trying to argue is weaker than Vaylin. Unamped Malak is winning wars with his lightsaber skills, defeating a Revan that was still more powerful than anyone in the Jedi Order, and was still commanding other Sith you like to wank like Sion, Nihilus, and Traya, who everyone conveniently likes to forget were still Sith while Malak was around. Senya has absolutely nothing under her belt, and neither does Vaylin that actually makes them good combatants, which was the point being made.

Senya was ambushed by Heskal, it amounts to jackshit. And why would I argue the Outlander is weaker than Vaylin when I don't believe that to be true.

Malak also has no particularly notable combat feats, so trying to play that card is weak. Vaylin's feats shit on Malaks in fact. And Malak never won wars with his lightsaber skill, thats a lie.

Also Malak never bossed around the Triumvirate, n00b.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering that Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child, clearly they do not.

That was all 3 of her children, not just Vaylin. Also was that before Valkorion sealed Vaylins power?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Mical says Revan went back to Traya after the Mandalorian Wars, while Kreia says Revan came to her to learn how to leave the Jedi, something he wouldn't do while championing the Jedi. Nihilus was feeding on Malachor, and that means students. I highly doubt Revan would let him roam free.

So all of this is based on your own assumptions.

10/10 fanfic.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Mical says Revan went back to Traya after the Mandalorian Wars, while Kreia says Revan came to her to learn how to leave the Jedi, something he wouldn't do while championing the Jedi.Not true, he said he went back to Kreia/Arren Kae, Mical didn't even know who Darth Traya was.

Revan wasn't championing the Jedi during the war, he abandoned the Order, created his own sect, began dabbling in the dark side, then corrupted them all to the Sith during the Battle of Malachor V. Mical is referring to the moment before the initial schism, where he decides to defy the Council.Or other survivors. Regardless fact remains he only achieves his true potential under Traya.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not true, he said he went back to Kreia/Arren Kae, Mical didn't even know who Darth Traya was.

You serious? Traya and Kreia are the same person, so while Revan may have not met Darh Traya, he did met Kreia, which is what I said anyway.

Given how the TOR novel plays out, with no one being Sith before meeting Vitiate, that's no longer true. And he said after his return from the Unknown Regions. that would be after he met Vitiate.

True, he's still incredibly powerful, which is what matters when discussing why he would even bother letting Malak continue to exist.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You serious? Traya and Kreia are the same person, so while Revan may have not met Darh Traya, he did met Kreia, which is what I said anyway.Yes. They may be the same person but they are distinctly different personas that occupy different time periods. Mical does not know who Darth Traya is, he doesn't even know who Kreia is, he, in his conversation with the Exile is speaking of Arren Kae who the player is led to infer is Kreia before she left the Jedi Order. With her Sith persona adopted, Kreia never met Revan.

And what you said is that Darth Traya served under Revan's Sith Empire, this is not true.Not really. The TOR novel and surrounding content actually makes it clear that Revan was had almost completely embraced the dark side by the time he faced Vitiate:

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

We don't have to use the term Sith, but Revan and his followers were not Jedi.
No. He and Kreia herself said Revan came to her after he'd learned "everything he could" from the others masters. No mention of the Unknown Regions is made, at all.OK, but maybe he like never joined Revan's Sith, and Revan never knew of him, since that's nowhere stated.

So Benni's the actually knowledgable person on this forum? Huh. Whodathunk.

gtfo http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

And it's Beni. *****.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
gtfo http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

And it's Beni. *****.

Got a problem?

Yes. an hero

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did you forget how to read, Sinious? That together with what Beni said led me to believe their argument is that her TK isn't gonna help her in combat. Isn't that what they're saying?



In any case, Vaylin was fighting her mother, and we know she already isn't balanced and in control of her powers as well as a random force user (I think she is quite similar to Anakin in this sense though not as talented but also not as distracted). So, it really isn't surprising to see her underperform against her mother.

She actually ripped off things from her environment to throw at her mother in a similar way to her best TK feat. In fact, her mother jumped back and gave her enough time to deploy TK. However, it was in a much smaller scale but its not like she actually failed to show the mastery of overwhelming another force user's force defenses with her TK. And given it's quite a personal moment for both sides, I hardly think that fight fully represents Vaylin's capabilities in combat. And Vaylin's TK feats aren't really as sophisticated as moving blackholes or manipulating midi-chlorains so not seeing how she'd have trouble ripping shit off with TK in combat given the opportunity. If she failed to do as well as she did when she tore down that huge building, it's most likely caused by an emotional state of mind she was in, instead of some magical reason that doesn't allow her to lift the simple material around her with TK. This of course is just my interpretation of the fight, but I think it makes more sense than any other interpretation I saw in this thread.

I agree with Beni. Malak is indeed capable of replicating that feat. If Vaylin performed as poorly, Malak would defeat her. Unfortunately, he doesn't look like Senya that much. Also, If "Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child", than how does Senya defeating grown up Vaylin with no morals make sense to you? Vaylin isn't retarded lol.

With that said, Malak is indeed more balanced, and the superior duelist. Imo, that's not enough for him to survive against her raw power.

Originally posted by Sinious
That together with what Beni said led me to believe their argument is that her TK isn't gonna help her in combat. Isn't that what they're saying?

No, he thinks she has lackluster combat feats.


She was absolutely trying to kill her, and was not hindered in anyway. She definitely states as much from that point on as well.

It isn't stated that she was hindered, that's why I said it is my interpretation, and explained the reason behind it.

Vaylin is crazy, and from that point on, only talks about how much she wants to kill her mother, is what's stated. There's no reason to think she was hindered at all.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vaylin is crazy, and from that point on, only talks about how much she wants to kill her mother, is what's stated. There's no reason to think she was hindered at all.

Azula was crazy too. Look at how hindered she was in her fight with Zuko.

Did you just use Avatar as a source for a Star Wars debate?

Her mother beat her lol of course she'll say shit like "I'm going to kill her". Like you said, she is crazy, and crazy people tend to react more emotionally and imbalanced towards personal matters.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yeah Malak doesn't really have any truly impressive Force feats to his name. And saberwise, he's a very capable duelist, enough to give KOTOR Revan a run for his money, but I don't see how he's beating Vaylin all-out.

Nah man, he has truly impressive Force feats that can rival or surpass Bane or Maul. If you want I can give you a run through them.

Originally posted by Sinious
Her mother beat her lol of course she'll say shit like "I'm going to kill her". Like you said, she is crazy, and crazy people tend to react more emotionally and imbalanced towards personal matters.
Except she's always hated her mother. She thinks she's the one that convinced Valkorion to go father of the year on her head and that Senya wants to keep her prisoner. She really doesn't like that, it turns out, so she feels Senya is a jailer who also abandoned her. Which makes her angry. Which makes her want to kill.

And if you seriously can't understand the difference between being angry at family and being angry at a stranger, I'm not surprised that you disagree with my interpretation. The latter is a much less complex situation that can simply fuel one's power, and the other can leave the imbalanced, well even more imbalanced.

I'm not saying Vaylin would always perform at her best where she can use her raw power to its fullest and defeat anyone who doesn't have her TK feats, but to think that her fight against Senya is her usual performance is silly imo.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
she already left the Order after Revan betrayed the RepublicAccording to Mical.

Kreia herself said that she was blamed for Revan leaving the Order (as well as other students) and exiled after him.

Regardless its besides the point, whether she had left or not this happened prior to her discovery of Malachor and her fall to the dark side, and prior to Revan's fall as well.I don't even know what you are talking about tbh but here are the facts, prior to leaving the Order and joining the Mandalorian Wars Revan sought Kreia's advice, before she fell and adopted the moniker of Traya, and after that they never ever met ever again, and she certainly was never a member of his Sith Empire. End of discussion.OK. If you want to put Revan above Kreia that's cool, but her being his Sith underling is not a valid reason.See above.No they were acting as protectors of the Republic and the larger galaxy, they didn't give a frak about the Jedi.

They stopped being real Jedi the moment Revan found the first Star Map on Dantooine, as Malak states, there was no going back after that. And the SWTORE states they explored ancient Sith teaching during the Mandalorian Wars, as do multiple other sources, which have not been retconned, so again no.No, he didn't. Look it up.What? You realise the Revan novel takes place after Revan left the Jedi, fell to the dark side, trashed the Jedi, got redeemed, and rejoined the Order again? Right?Like I said, if Nihilus was left stranded on Malachor, don't see why others wouldn't have been.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because not ten minutes before they were dying from carbonite poisoning over a five year period? Which, surprisingly enough, is the reason given in game.
Lana Beniko came out of carbonite as well?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Okay, but going by that logic, Senya shouldn't be able to defeat Vaylin, but that's obviously not true, and given Senya's zero impressive feats, I really don't think it matters as much as you think it does.
You are wrong:

http://i.imgur.com/K9tpWVE.gif

Senya is very powerful.

Originally posted by Sinious
In any case, Vaylin was fighting her mother, and we know she already isn't balanced and in control of her powers as well as a random force user (I think she is quite similar to Anakin in this sense though not as talented but also not as distracted). So, it really isn't surprising to see her underperform against her mother.

She actually ripped off things from her environment to throw at her mother in a similar way to her best TK feat. In fact, her mother jumped back and gave her enough time to deploy TK. However, it was in a much smaller scale but its not like she actually failed to show the mastery of overwhelming another force user's force defenses with her TK. And given it's quite a personal moment for both sides, I hardly think that fight fully represents Vaylin's capabilities in combat. And Vaylin's TK feats aren't really as sophisticated as moving blackholes or manipulating midi-chlorains so not seeing how she'd have trouble ripping shit off with TK in combat given the opportunity. If she failed to do as well as she did when she tore down that huge building, it's most likely caused by an emotional state of mind she was in, instead of some magical reason that doesn't allow her to lift the simple material around her with TK. This of course is just my interpretation of the fight, but I think it makes more sense than any other interpretation I saw in this thread.

I agree with Beni. Malak is indeed capable of replicating that feat. If Vaylin performed as poorly, Malak would defeat her. Unfortunately, he doesn't look like Senya that much. Also, If "Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child", than how does Senya defeating grown up Vaylin with no morals make sense to you? Vaylin isn't retarded lol.

With that said, Malak is indeed more balanced, and the superior duelist. Imo, that's not enough for him to survive against her raw power.
My thoughts exactly.

ANALOGY: Anakin Skywalker didn't achieve a breakthrough against Obi-Wan Kenobi in a confrontation on Mustafar but he killed Count Dooku earlier. So should we disregard Anakin's accomplishments because he failed in one duel?

It is foolish to underestimate Vaylin for not achieving a breakthrough in a confrontation against her mother. This fight was different for her then others.

However, Vaylin did remark (later-on) that she will not spare her mother next time, should they meet again. This remark implies that she was mentally conflicted during her confrontation with her mother.

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

http://i.imgur.com/K9tpWVE.gif

She is really powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My thoughts exactly.

ANALOGY: Anakin Skywalker didn't achieve a breakthrough against Obi-Wan Kenobi in a confrontation on Mustafar but he killed Count Dooku earlier. So should we disregard Anakin's accomplishments because he failed in one duel?

It is foolish to underestimate Vaylin for not achieving a breakthrough in a confrontation against her mother. This fight was different for her then others.

However, Vaylin did remark (later-on) that she will not spare her mother next time, should they meet again. This remark implies that she was mentally conflicted during her confrontation with her mother.

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

http://i.imgur.com/K9tpWVE.gif

She is really powerful.

@ Legend,

Yeah, I think if Senya and Vaylin fight again any time soon, Senya probably won't survive that confrontation this time.

It's clear that Vaylin was more mentally unstable during this fight than others. Not only that, but her comment about not sparing Senya next time implies that she was not aiming to kill her. On top of that, Senya later comments that Vaylin told her that Arcann killed Thexan, which devastated her. Vaylin clearly did this to get a rise out of her mum. This fight wasn't one that Vaylin intended to end with either one dead. If it were, with her previous showings, she'd have ended it much sooner. She's also depicted as having two lightsabers in the cover image on the loading screen for KotFE. We've only ever seen her use one, so it can easily be inferred that she performs best when utilizing a second lightsaber in combat.

The only person clearly uncommitted in this fight is Senya. Assuming that Vaylin was not on her A-game but Senya was is silly.

Not implying she was

Good, then you'll understand if they were both going all out, the fight would have ended the same.

I agree with Beni, honestly. Vaylin clearly wants to kill her mother, where as Senya clearly wants to blame everyone but her children for their problems. It's obvious who was going all out and who wasn't.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

http://i.imgur.com/K9tpWVE.gif

She is really powerful.
The Outlander also really wasn't paying attention to her.

Yeah that gid doesn't show anything tbh. Outlander wasn't even looking at her, and certainly didn't even attempt to block the push.

Seems like the same off guard tooling we see befall Senya herself at the hands of Heskal.

Only worse because there's no time to react and the Outlander isn't looking.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did you just use Avatar as a source for a Star Wars debate?

I used an example of emotionally hindered characters having problems in battle, yes.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Assuming that Vaylin was not on her A-game but Senya was is silly. You can see that I said it is an emotional fight for both sides. But, since we know Vaylin has insane raw power, but can't always properly command it cause she only recently gained access to it, her performance can vary more than someone like Malak. Considering how she is psychologically hindered like permanently, and displayed great application of TK earlier in the game, I think looking at that one fight and placing her this low (like "Senya is featless and Vaylin is below her so she can't even defeat Malak" low) is also silly.

It's a much better conclusion to make than, "We don't have enough evidence one way or the other, so I'm going to make the opposite conclusion which has none at all."

Damn, you're right. I totally made up the fact that Vaylin didn't have access to her insane power until recently, and that she managed to use that power in other occasions.

Originally posted by Sinious
You can see that I said it is an emotional fight for both sides. But, since we know Vaylin has insane raw power, but can't always properly command it cause she only recently gained access to it, her performance can vary more than someone like Malak. Considering how she is psychologically hindered like permanently, and displayed great application of TK earlier in the game, I think looking at that one fight and placing her this low (like "Senya is featless and Vaylin is below her so she can't even defeat Malak" low) is also silly. But really on what grounds? Your assuming that, in general, the telekinetic ability of a Force user outside of a combat situation should be equal or comparable to their telekinetic ability within one.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

Alternatively, manipulating massive objects in the heat of battle isn't a good move because they tend to be unwieldy, slow and awkward. Doesn't mean they can't harness similar levels of power.

Also Vader did throw that large platform at Marek in TFU2.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But really on what grounds? Your assuming that, in general, the telekinetic ability of a Force user outside of a combat situation should be equal or comparable to their telekinetic ability within one.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

Well Vader collapses a tree thats several hundred meters tall when fighting the Dark Woman I believe while Galen has TK'ed thousands of droids whilst in combat, cleared an entire platform of an army, collapsed the supports of an orbital superstructure and powered a cannon that pierced through a Star Destroyer while there was still stormtroopers around. Yoda's best TK feats come during one of the most chaotic battles of the Clone Wars, the Battle of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But really on what grounds? Your assuming that, in general, the telekinetic ability of a Force user outside of a combat situation should be equal or comparable to their telekinetic ability within one.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

So you're suggesting that Vader's much respected (by everyone including yourself I'm sure) TK feats are not even comparable to what he is capable of in combat. Got it.

Your logic is that Senya is featless and Vaylin lost to her. Therefore, anyone who has feats can defeat Vaylin. And you're shameless enough to talk about common sense, Beni.

Lmao, 2/10 response.

concession accepted.

I like how Beni never ever mentioned this amazing revelation of his before. I never would've thought non combat TK feats weren't applicable (I mean they're not even comparable after all) in combat.

Also, writing 3 essays in one weekend tbh.

Not sure in what sense your being sarcastic, seeing that this is indeed common sense that has been brought up before.

Like Kyp Durron's black hole feat not being combat applicable.

Anyway I am busy myself, so I don't have time to respond to half sense making salty rebuttals.

Probably not the best idea to use as an example pretty much the only Kyp feat anyone ever brings up in his threads for why he wins, kek.

Well if Sin wants to lump himself in with that crowd that's cool, sensible people tend not to agree though.

Moving a blackhole is a much more specific case and is hard to gauge tbh. You can see that I've already said (in earlier pages) Vaylin isn't superior to anyone in the force who doesn't have her TK feats. If this was someone like Dooku fighting Vayling for example, I'd side them despite Vaylin's superior showings in this area. Malak on the other hand has almost nothing going for him, and your main argument is indeed Senya = featless > Vaylin.

OK, lol

Glad we all agree that Malak is getting ragdolled.