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Vindican and Malgus as of Return.

Ahsoka as of The Clone Wars, Kanan and Ezra as of Rebels: Season 2.

Battle takes place on Lothal.

Team 1

**** you and your unhealthy obsession with Lothal you Ahsoka loving ****!!!

Team 2 with moderate difficulty.

Team 1 definitely has the advantage with both members individually being stronger than any member of team 2. However, team 2 has the number advantage. I'd give it to team 1 for their members superiority and ability to work together more effectively due to their master/apprentice relationship. Not implying it wouldn't apply to Ezra and Kanan, but with them being far superior to each it won't make much difference.

How is either Vindican or Malgus by that point superior to Ahsoka or debatably even Kanan? Ezra I'll concede but given recent showings he'd be a great addition to either Kanan or Ahsoka and given the relationship between him and Kanan and their experience in combat together I see them likely pairing off. Honestly I contest that Kanan and Ezra as a team could beat either of team 1 and Ahsoka could as well.

Darth Malgus had become of the greatest warriors of the Empire before the events of Hope. He proved his mettle by defeating Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach.

Lord Vindican was considerably better then a Jedi Knight level opponent (e.g. Satele Shan) and held his own against Kao Cen Darach until the latter acquired another Lightsaber and utilized Trakata maneuvers to outduel him.

I thought Satele was a padawan and Kao had the edge over Vindican prior to trakata.

Originally posted by Syndicate
How is either Vindican or Malgus by that point superior to Ahsoka or debatably even Kanan? Ezra I'll concede but given recent showings he'd be a great addition to either Kanan or Ahsoka and given the relationship between him and Kanan and their experience in combat together I see them likely pairing off. Honestly I contest that Kanan and Ezra as a team could beat either of team 1 and Ahsoka could as well.
Darth Malgus had become one of the greatest warriors of the Empire (before) the events of Hope. He justified his hype by defeating Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach . Satele Shan described Darth Malgus as the embodiment of Dark Side of the Force in her memoirs later on.

Lord Vindican was stronger then many Jedi (e.g. he literally manhandled Jedi Knight Satele Shan) and held his own against Darach until the latter acquired another Lightsaber (of his apprentice) and utilized Trakata maneuvers to out-duel him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Malgus had become one of the greatest warriors of the Empire (before) the events of Hope. He proved his mettle by defeating Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach . Satele Shan described Darth Malgus as the embodiment of Dark Side of the Force in her memoirs later on.

Lord Vindican was stronger then many Jedi (e.g. he literally manhandled Jedi Knight Satele Shan) and held his own against Kao Cen Darach until the latter acquired another Lightsaber and utilized Trakata maneuvers to outduel him.

Before the events of the first trailer though? After Darach had already fought a prolonged engagement against both Vindican and Malgus. Which version of Malgus? I'm willing to bet it wasn't Malgus from the first trailer.

"Lord Vindican was stronger then many Jedi"

Is that a statement from a source or from you?

Yep. He was outdueled with Malgus aiding him.

Satele was a Padawan. Wank Kao all you want, their performances against him and their force feats put the Sith well above Kanan and Ezra and perhaps above Ahsoka as well IMO, but Return Satele is nothing special.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Satele was a Padawan. Wank Kao all you want, their performances against him and their force feats put the Sith well above Kanan and Ezra and likely above Ahsoka as well IMO, but Return Satele is nothing special.

Their performance against him make them superior to Ahsoka? How?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Before the events of the first trailer though?
Yes.

Originally posted by Syndicate
"Lord Vindican was stronger then many Jedi"

Is that a statement from a source or from you?
Lord Vindican was a powerful Force-user (a notable Sith Inquisitor). His powers were sufficient to block missiles at point-black range and affect other Force-users (even the likes of Darth Malgus).

Satele Shan was a Jedi Knight during the events of Return and she didn't fared well against Lord Vindican. I am using her as the benchmark to judge Lord Vindican's position in the galaxy at large.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yep. He was outdueled with Malgus aiding him.
Darach had to break the coordination of the duo to achieve a breakthrough.

Darach deflected a powerful burst of Force Lightning from Lord Vindican towards Darth Malgus (with a special maneuver); the Force Lightning knocked Darth Malgus out for a while. During this time, Darach and Lord Vindican had a strictly bout and Darach utilized trakata maneuvers to outduel the Sith Lord.

Afterwards, Darth Malgus came back and overwhelmed Darach through his sheer raw power.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Satele was a Padawan. Wank Kao all you want, their performances against him and their force feats put the Sith well above Kanan and Ezra and likely above Ahsoka as well IMO, but Return Satele is nothing special.
Satele Shan was a Jedi Knight as of Return.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Their performance against him make them superior to Ahsoka? How?
Well Malgus overpowered the guy after Kao was struck down, leaping through an exploding engine part without injury too I might add, and Vindican held his own decently enough though was clearly inferior, and blocked a missile with his barrier. I did edit my post to say perhaps however, so I'm not entirely sure, given Vindican's inferiority to Kao and the uncertainty of whether or not Malgus's victory is the normal level he operates on at this point in time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.


Darach had to break the coordination of the duo to achieve a breakthrough.

Darach deflected a powerful burst of Force Lightning from Lord Vindican towards Darth Malgus (with a special maneuver); the Force Lightning knocked Darth Malgus out for a while. During this time, Darach and Lord Vindican had a strictly bout and Darach utilized trakata maneuvers to outduel the Sith Lord.

Afterwards, Darth Malgus came back and overwhelmed Darach through his sheer raw power.


Satele Shan was a Jedi Knight as of Hope.

Proof?

The lightning only affected Malgus because he wasn't expecting for it to be deflected back at him by the Jedi they were fighting. If he'd had time to raise a shield or block it with his blade he could have defended himself from it. There's nothing to suggest the lightning was out of the ordinary. The shielding feat is pretty good granted but I don't see why a Jedi master would be unable to replicate such a feat.

By Hope yes but that's the second trailer and in the first trailer she was not yet a Jedi Knight.

Yes and he did so. Even together they could not overcome him until he was tired out considerably.

Yes, you're correct in that Vindican was outmaneuvered and defeated.

He's referring to the Satele in the first trailer.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well Malgus overpowered the guy after Kao was struck down, leaping through an exploding engine part without injury too I might add, and Vindican held his own decently enough though was clearly inferior, and blocked a missile with his barrier. I did edit my post to say perhaps however, so I'm not entirely sure, given Vindican's inferiority to Kao and the uncertainty of whether or not Malgus's victory is the normal level he operates on at this point in time.

Not questioning the guys durability. I agree it's insane. You have to realize though that Kao was already drained from having to fight off both of them for the last few minutes.

I would say that Malgus's victory isn't the normal level at which he operates as it was the moment where he literally surpassed his master. Aside from that though as I mentioned Kao was tired out while Malgus young and with a deeper connection to the Force still had energy to spare. Kao knowing this sought to put him down by pelting him with large objects but as you said Malgus was able to get through it.

Satele was a knight as of hope, but that doesn't mean shit in regards to Return Satele who was a padawan when she and Kao faced this duo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Satele Shan was a Jedi Knight as of Hope. But we're not talking about Hope Shan...?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Satele was a knight as of hope, but that doesn't mean shit in regards to Return Satele who was a padawan when she and Kao faced this duo.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
But we're not talking about Hope Shan...?
Sorry, I mean't Return. Corrected this mistake above.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry, I mean't Return. Corrected this mistake above.

I don't believe she was a knight in Returned either.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I don't believe she was a knight in Returned either.
Why? Because she failed to hold her own against the likes of Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican during this time?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Proof?
Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Syndicate
The lightning only affected Malgus because he wasn't expecting for it to be deflected back at him by the Jedi they were fighting. If he'd had time to raise a shield or block it with his blade he could have defended himself from it. There's nothing to suggest the lightning was out of the ordinary. The shielding feat is pretty good granted but I don't see why a Jedi master would be unable to replicate such a feat.
Perhaps. But this development reveals the intensity of the Force Lightning nonetheless.

Lord Vindican's Force Lightning is officially stated to be powerful and intense; this is expected from a Sith Inquisitor.

Originally posted by Syndicate
By Hope yes but that's the second trailer and in the first trailer she was not yet a Jedi Knight.
By Return.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes and he did so. Even together they could not overcome him until he was tired out considerably.
This is speculation.

Nothing implies that Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach was tired.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes, you're correct in that Vindican was outmaneuvered and defeated.
Yes, but this was far from easy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why? Because he failed to hold her own against the likes of Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican during this time?

Not necessarily but she still called Kao "master." Granted Anakin did this with Obi Wan too but it would make sense if she appeared as an apprentice, then a knight and then later in the novels as Grand Master as it would relate to her progression as a Jedi. Also I believe it makes note of her still being an apprentice in the first trailer. I'll try to find the quote.

If I'm unable to find it though I'm curious as to why you think she's a knight?

After Kao's death, Dar'Nala, another Jedi master, stepped in to complete Satele's training LMFAO

No ****ing way Return Satele is a Knight

Originally posted by Syndicate
Not necessarily but she still called Kao "master."
So?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Granted Anakin did this with Obi Wan too but it would make sense if she appeared as an apprentice, then a knight and then later in the novels as Grand Master as it would relate to her progression as a Jedi. Also I believe it makes note of her still being an apprentice in the first trailer. I'll try to find the quote.

If I'm unable to find it though I'm curious as to why you think she's a knight?
Satele Shan was the Jedi Knight and Darth Malgus was the Sith Lord as of Return.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
After Kao's death, Dar'Nala, another Jedi master, stepped in to complete Satele's training LMFAO

No ****ing way Return Satele is a Knight

Does she have any skill feats?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia


Perhaps. But this development reveals the intensity of the Force Lightning nonetheless.

Lord Vindican's Force Lightning is officially stated to be powerful and intense; this is expected from a Sith Inquisitor.


By Return.


This is speculation.

Nothing implies that Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach was tired.


Yes, but this was far from easy.

Fair enough.

To be perfectly honest I don't see why Kanan or Ahsoka would be unable to block or defend against it.

Proof?

Except him breathing heavily after he defeated Vindican and having just fought both of them off simultaneously? Sure...

I'm not saying it was but it doesn't change the fact that he was defeated by Kao who was a superior opponent who had knowledge of all the forms. Kanan in turn defeated the Grand Inquisitor who was knowledgeable in all form of lightsaber combat to the point he could tell who had trained Kanan simply by observing him fight. I'd say from a dueling sense they're pretty comparable.

Return Satele is a Padawan whose only impressive feat/accolade is wielding a saberstaff, but Kanan already dealt with and defeated a more skilled saberstaff wielder and Ahsoka>Kanan, so beating Satele is completely irrelevant to every Jedi here but Ezra.

I do agree the TOR team wins since one can at least hold off Ahsoka while the other takes care of Kanan and Ezra, but making out Return Satele to be anything special is laughable.

Going to bed now. Don't want to leave you waiting for a response.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
After Kao's death, Dar'Nala, another Jedi master, stepped in to complete Satele's training LMFAO

No ****ing way Return Satele is a Knight
A Jedi never stops learning.

Anakin Skywalker continued to seek training and advice from Obi-Wan Kenobi after Knighthood and was even granted an apprentice of his own by Yoda for further learning.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A Jedi never stops learning.

Oh come on. This and claiming Darach wasn't tired is just being stubborn.

I noticed that everyone neglected to note this but Kao Cen Darach was the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. On the note of Satele as of Return, it's stated in the SWTOR Encyclopedia that he trained Satele aboard the Korriban station to a "full Jedi Knight." Beating the Jedi Battlemaster (even when worn) is better than anything I can recall from TCW. Battling Grievous for a short duration is good, and surviving a few short encounters (usually with help) with Ventress is good too, but I definitely wouldn't say it's on par with killing the Jedi Battlemaster.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I noticed that everyone neglected to note this but Kao Cen Darach was the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. On the note of Satele as of Return, it's stated in the SWTOR Encyclopedia that he trained Satele aboard the Korriban station to a "full Jedi Knight." Beating the Jedi Battlemaster (even when worn) is better than anything I can recall from TCW. Battling Grievous for a short duration is good, and surviving a few short encounters (usually with help) with Ventress is good too, but I definitely wouldn't say it's on par with killing the Jedi Battlemaster.

Fair enough. I'd like the quote for Satele being a knight.

For the rest I'll get to it tomorrow.

Yeah I want the full quote as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So?


Satele Shan was the Jedi Knight and Darth Malgus was the Sith Lord as of Return.

I explain that below.

Also that's fine. I would ask for evidence but it seems Tond is already on it.

Alright that's fair. She was trained to knighthood non traditionally but trained to knighthood she was.

Would you like to split off the debate between Depa and Vindican and Kanan/Ezra and Malgus?

Kek at team 2 standing any chance against Vindican alone. Vindican solos, he was one of the best Inquisitors and Inquisitors-Assassins were stated to be inspired by some of the best figures in Star Wars history (Maul perhaps)? So basically Vindican has to be comparable to theme as one of the best in the class that was inspired by these people.

Vindican solos. With Malgus it's a stomp.

Originally posted by JKBart
Kek at team 2 standing any chance against Vindican alone. Vindican solos, he was one of the best Inquisitors and Inquisitors-Assassins were stated to be inspired by some of the best figures in Star Wars history (Maul perhaps)? So basically Vindican has to be comparable to theme as one of the best in the class that was inspired by these people.

Vindican solos. With Malgus it's a stomp.

Stop your trolling plox.