Darth Jadus & SoD Maul vs Barsen'thor & Count Dooku

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Sinious
No morals.

Round 1: Force Only
Round 2: All out

Dooku and Thor confront them on Jadus' command deck.

15 meters distance.

Neutral ground.

Who wins?

AncientPower
Jadus is Force MVP, Maul is sabers MVP, team one in both.

hutchy1345
Originally posted by AncientPower
Jadus is Force MVP, Maul is sabers MVP, team one in both.
Yes but most likely maul is the weakest force user and jadus the worst lightsaber wielder

AncientPower
Maul isn't weaker than Dooku in Force, infact I'd say the opposite is true tbh.

I see no reason to believe Jadus is losing to Thor in sabers either.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Jadus is Force MVP, Maul is sabers MVP, team one in both. How is Maul a better duelist than Dooku. erm

hutchy1345
Originally posted by AncientPower
Maul isn't weaker than Dooku in Force, infact I'd say the opposite is true tbh.

I see no reason to believe Jadus is losing to Thor in sabers either.
Dooku is stronger than maul in the force

AncientPower
Playing Kenobi and Jinn like puppets, facing Windu and Secura simultaneously, stomping Savage Opress, showing superiority over Grievous. He is just more consistent than Dooku.

Not to mention being a physical monstrosity.

AncientPower
Originally posted by hutchy1345
Dooku is stronger than maul in the force

Have fun with ILS.

Nephthys
Originally posted by AncientPower
Maul isn't weaker than Dooku in Force, infact I'd say the opposite is true tbh.

I see no reason to believe Jadus is losing to Thor in sabers either.

Thor has better saber feats than Jadus. She has some, for a start.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by AncientPower
Playing Kenobi and Jinn like puppets, facing Windu and Secura simultaneously, stomping Savage Opress, showing superiority over Grievous. He is just more consistent than Dooku.

Not to mention being a physical monstrosity.


Dooku being able to hold off OBI Wan and Anakin and actaully having the upper hand a time or towo is more impressive than than Maul tooling Obi Wan and Jinn, especially when Dooku could do the exact same.

The battle lasted exactly one panel and thus an unspecified amount of time.

Not something Dooku can t replicate stomping savage.

Dooku has also displayed superiority over Grevious, and actaully in SOD comic the two actaully looked on par, with Maul having to result to his force powers like he did in their last battle catching him off guard.

Dooku may have his inconsistencies, but Dooku still has better feats than Maul IMO. Definitly in the force, sabers is closer but I still give Dooku the edge as a deulist.

How many deulist are more physically fit than Dooku. Anakin, Obi Wan, Savage, Vos (Legends), Mace, possibly Ventress. How many has he beaten out of this list? I'm not disagreeing with you, maul is physically better, but Dooku has moved past that weakness.

hutchy1345
Dooku is on par with windu and yoda, maul can't compete with that

Sinious
Who do you think wins then? Only AP shared his verdict.

hutchy1345
Jadus beats barsenthor with superior force power before dooku can outduel maul and then the two sith overwhelm dooku but one of them may die

hutchy1345
Force only could go to team 2 tho

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Playing Kenobi and Jinn like puppetsWell as Sids points out, Dooku had Anakin and Master Kenobi tripping over themselves in TCW.For the briefest amount of time, so much so I'd hardly call it an engagement at all.

Let's be honest, all he did was kick Secura in the face.Granted this is an impressive showing considering he gave Dooku trouble, but that was largerly due to the Count's weaknesses against physically overpowering opponents.Great, but who hasn't? Considering he was given a fight by Pre Viszla, I wouldn't quite say so.

On the other hand? Dooku was capable of contending with Master Yoda, whereas Maul was left in blind awe by Darth Sidious who easily defeated him. Frankly Yoda demonstrated himself to be the better combatant that Palpy in ROTS, so I don't see how Maul is even Dooku's equal, let alone his superior.Granted, but see above, he more than makes up for it with the Force.Originally posted by AncientPower
Maul isn't weaker than Dooku in Force, infact I'd say the opposite is true tbh. Now that's an even bolder claim, considering the writer of SoD flat out states otherwise.

Sinious
@ hutchy

I'm personally siding team 1 too.

What if Dooku faces Jadus and Maul faces Thor?

Tondemonai
Team 1. Jadus' Force superiority is too vast for either to get an upper hand with Maul in the mix. All-out I don't see either opponent getting nearly close enough to Jadus to land a blow. He can easily teleport away or force them into a defense against his Force attacks.

Sinious
Change Thor to Nox then.

Tondemonai
Would be much closer. I can see team 2 pulling a solid 4/10 wins. Tbh I'm torn on that matchup. Probably team 1 still, but a slim majority rather than full 8/10 for team 1 when it was 'Thor

hutchy1345
Originally posted by Sinious
@ hutchy

I'm personally siding team 1 too.

What if Dooku faces Jadus and Maul faces Thor?
I think team 1 still gets it, but this match up gives team 2 a much better chance at victory
team 1 6/10 or maybe 7/10
While if dooku faces maul and jadus faces thor i see it being 9/10 for team 1
Adding nox instead of thor definitely changes the outcome
I think it could go either way with a 6/10 victory for team 2
Nox and dooku are too superior to maul in the force, it's just whether one of them can kill maul quick enough to help the other with jadus

AncientPower
@Beni

Difference being Kenobi is a defensive duelist at this time, which is even worse when you consider Makashi butchers Soresu, compared to Maul facing Jinn and Kenobi, both of whom were heavy Ataru users.

We don't see exactly how short it is, but Maul floors Secura and is implied to be capable of beating Mace.

A problem he'll face here given Maul is even stronger than his brother as evidenced by Maul's Lockdown feats.

Yeh well this time there wasn't any bullshit surrounding the fight.

The Pre Viszla fight was Maul putting on a show as Filoni confirmed.

Dooku was not contending with Yoda, two sources claim so, every other says he was way out of his depth entirely. Darth Maul via rage nearly killed Palpatine after days of shitty conditions, well before TPM. Maul stands about as much chance as Dooku against such a level of opponent.

The Revenge of the Sith novel says Yoda never had a chance, compared to a junior book claiming otherwise.

Dooku makes up for it mostly sure, but Maul isn't Opress, infact he pretty easily rivals Anakin in physicals.

I honestly don't see why the argument Dooku is > Maul in anything has any feet to stand on given Maul is implied to be superior in Shadow of Dathomir.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by AncientPower
@Beni

Difference being Kenobi is a defensive duelist at this time, which is even worse when you consider Makashi butchers Soresu, compared to Maul facing Jinn and Kenobi, both of whom were heavy Ataru users.

We don't see exactly how short it is, but Maul floors Secura and is implied to be capable of beating Mace.

A problem he'll face here given Maul is even stronger than his brother as evidenced by Maul's Lockdown feats.

Yeh well this time there wasn't any bullshit surrounding the fight.

The Pre Viszla fight was Maul putting on a show as Filoni confirmed.

Dooku was not contending with Yoda, two sources claim so, every other says he was way out of his depth entirely. Darth Maul via rage nearly killed Palpatine after days of shitty conditions, well before TPM. Maul stands about as much chance as Dooku against such a level of opponent.

The Revenge of the Sith novel says Yoda never had a chance, compared to a junior book claiming otherwise.

Dooku makes up for it mostly sure, but Maul isn't Opress, infact he pretty easily rivals Anakin in physicals.

I honestly don't see why the argument Dooku is > Maul in anything has any feet to stand on given Maul is implied to be superior in Shadow of Dathomir.

Actually, Dooku's implied to be superior in SoD. IIRC Windu assumes Maul to be Dooku's apprentice.

Sinious
Originally posted by hutchy1345
I think team 1 still gets it, but this match up gives team 2 a much better chance at victory
team 1 6/10 or maybe 7/10
While if dooku faces maul and jadus faces thor i see it being 9/10 for team 1
Adding nox instead of thor definitely changes the outcome
I think it could go either way with a 6/10 victory for team 2
Nox and dooku are too superior to maul in the force, it's just whether one of them can kill maul quick enough to help the other with jadus Originally posted by Tondemonai
Would be much closer. I can see team 2 pulling a solid 4/10 wins. Tbh I'm torn on that matchup. Probably team 1 still, but a slim majority rather than full 8/10 for team 1 when it was 'Thor Nox vs Maul is a weird one. I think they're on the same league as combatants, but Nox's force offense speciality might not allow Maul to take advantage of his superiority as a duelist. Team 2 can't take the majority tho.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
@Beni

Difference being Kenobi is a defensive duelist at this time, which is even worse when you consider Makashi butchers Soresu, compared to Maul facing Jinn and Kenobi, both of whom were heavy Ataru users.Makashi butchers Soresu? OK but really, source?

Fact is Dooku contended at once with two significantly greater combatants than Jinn and Kenobi. No stylistic advantage is implied beyond Dooku's exceptional skill, so we've no reason to believe he the latter would press him at all. Nor is there reason to believe Dooku would anymore pressed 1 v 1 by Padawan Kenobi, when he's destroyed him in AotC.Which is grounds for assuming it was at all substantial? And where?His Lockdown feats are impressive, but we've no reason to assume Savage couldn't do better when he's more physically overpowering in combat than Maul has ever been shown to be.Ventress defeated him fair and square on Dathomir, of course Dooku would hand him his ass.Fair enough.OK but let's look at the facts. Dooku was able to hold out against Yoda for 30 seconds without being defeated, within that time Sidious had Maul (who if anything was amped on rage) on the floor, begging for mercy.

Dooku is stated in the RoTS novel to have "held strong" against Yoda's assault, where Maul is not even able to perceive Palpatine's blades.

It's pretty clear who performed better.

Heck let's not forget Dooku apparently a peer to Windu, who was in turn able to stalemate against Darth Sidious himself, with an amp granted, but technical skill is what's important here.Again, the facts. The RoTS script states that Yoda initially drove Sidious into retreat, and then disarmed him in lightsaber combat.He really doesn't, at least not RoTS Anakin. Nor is he a Djem So stylist. Speed frankly is more important than strength for a Juyo user, and in that Dooku has him beat.Shadow of Dathomir? What is that a limited collector's edition? Again Barlow states Dooku is better, so right back at you.

Nephthys
Jadus isn't beating Thor imo and Dooku beats Maul. Team 2.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
Jadus isn't beating Thor imo I would've never expected this betrayal from you, Neph.

Nephthys
Thor is underrated.

Sinious
So is Jadus, and by you specifically.

He has the raw power and TK to handle Thor's TK, and his knowledge in the force allows him to freaking go incorporeal and teleport around at will.

Jadus' accolades puts him above names like Malgus, Nox etc. I don't see how Barsen'thor compares.

Nephthys
No, I have Jadus extraordinarily high up.

Vivicar had raw power as well, on top of Thor being weakened and worn from fighting. She still defeated him. Thor *might* not be as powerful as Jadus but she's a superior fighter and should be able to take him down or equal him. I mean, she'd do better against Cipher 9 than he did.

Feats > accolades. Malgus and Nox aren't below Jadus.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I have Jadus extraordinarily high up.

Vivicar had raw power as well, on top of Thor being weakened and worn from fighting. She still defeated him. Thor *might* not be as powerful as Jadus but she's a superior fighter and should be able to take him down or equal him. I mean, she'd do better against Cipher 9 than he did.

Feats > accolades. Malgus and Nox aren't below Jadus. Why would Jadus not be able to defeat him though? The only thing Jadus lacks is a fighting scene against another force user where he could properly demonstrate his capabilities. Jadus's accolades are pretty specific and comes from Valkorion (who has a greater understanding of basically everything than any other character in the era) and he really doesn't give out compliments easily. Heck, he looks down upon almost anyone he talks about and even criticizes HoT for lacking "the purity of will to direct" his immense power. Yet he says outright that Jadus is the best Sith his empire ever produced. I doubt he'd say that about someone who is so shitty at combat that they can't defeat someone like Thor who is both less powerful and less knowledgable in the force.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I have Jadus extraordinarily high up.

Vivicar had raw power as well, on top of Thor being weakened and worn from fighting. She still defeated him. Thor *might* not be as powerful as Jadus but she's a superior fighter and should be able to take him down or equal him. I mean, she'd do better against Cipher 9 than he did.

Feats > accolades. Malgus and Nox aren't below Jadus. Might? What feats does the Barsenthor have that compare with Jadus?

Not seeing what puts Nox or Malgus up there with him either...

SunRazer
Force-only I could see team 1 winning, but in all-out, Jadus is the weak link with no veritable merit to his lightsaber resume. I'm siding with team 2 for that one.

Lord Stark
How is Maul implied to be superior in Son of Dathomir when Mace Windu who sensed both of them at the same time blatantly tells Palpatine 'we think Dooku is the Sith Master we've been looking for, Maul was his apprentice'.

ILS
They already knew Maul was the apprentice, so...

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ILS
They already knew Maul was the apprentice, so...

No they didn't lol
'But which was destroyed the Master of the Apprentice?'

Beniboybling
Lel.

ILS
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No they didn't lol
'But which was destroyed the Master of the Apprentice?' When was that said?

I figured by SoD they had worked out Maul was the apprentice since he was presumed dead but shit was still going on, the Force was still being clouded.

Syndicate
Change it to Nox and I'll side team 2 for the hell of it.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I've sort of forgotten what makes Nox so much better than 'Thor.

ILS
ghooooossosossosostgtss

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by ILS
When was that said?

I figured by SoD they had worked out Maul was the apprentice since he was presumed dead but shit was still going on, the Force was still being clouded.
By SoD they thought Dooku was the master. No idea what Stark is implying.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nox lolstomped Thanaton, sure, but 'Thor has decidedly better TK feats, (blowing a hole through a massive blast door, throwing an enormous chunk of metal hundreds of yards, blasting through a Rakatan vault door, bashing the First Son against a wall, etc,) and defeating Vivicar/The First Son are as if not more impressive than Nox's showings.

Tondemonai
Originally posted by ILS
When was that said?

Ummmmmm TPM?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
By SoD they thought Dooku was the master. No idea what Stark is implying. Pretty sure the first and last time Dooku is implied to be the Master is in SoD, because he has seemingly taken on Maul - a lesser Sith - as his apprentice.

Don't recall any indication before that that Dooku is the Sith Master, at least not in Canon. If anything, they suspected otherwise, that the Sith Master had infiltrated the upper echelons of the Senate. It was certainly never implied that the death of Count Dooku put an end to the Sith threat.

Regardless this kinda detracts from the point, that Windu believed Maul to be Dooku's disciple, ergo his inferior.

ILS
Master =/= Superior smokin'

SunRazer
It does for Sith smile

Nephthys
Lumiya?

SunRazer
She's more of an accomplice than a downright master.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
It does for Sith smile dat RoT tho

SunRazer
According to RoT, when the apprentice surpasses the master, they're supposed to kill the master. So while a character is a Master of another, they're technically still more powerful.

Beniboybling
I think in pretty much all hierarchies, master > apprentice.

That's just kinda what the terms mean. erm

SunRazer
Right, and by Sith doctrine, a Master has to be more powerful than their apprentice. Otherwise, they're no longer fit to be a Master. There's very few exceptions to that.

ILS
And Dooku was a very old master indeed. It's up in the air how worthy he was to remain in that position.

This is just for shits and gigs though. Windu correctly pointing out that an 80 year old Dooku could be 30-something Darth Maul's Sith mentor is a pretty shallow case for Dooku > Maul in the first place. It would even make sense to me if I didn't know better.

Beniboybling
True, the writer's clear statement that Dooku > Maul and the various feats and accolades that support it definitely make a much stronger case for the Count being superior. thumb up

ILS
The same writer claimed Maul would defeat Dooku for a majority if they were to fight. Sorry to shit in your cereal there, Beni. wink

The_Tempest
ILS has worked wonders with Maul and it pleases me. But Maul definitely ain't > Dooku.

ILS
And it's that mindset that prevents much of the possibly intelligent debate surrounding Maul and Dooku, Tempy-poo. Guys like Beni get so attached to the idea of Dooku > Maul that when faced with the possibility of it not being so, he resorts to desperation tactics like Barlow's contradictory commentary. I'm all for Dooku > Maul if and when the right argument comes along for it.

Nephthys
When I see anything suggesting Maul can replicate Dooku's duel with Yoda I'll be inclined to admit he's on Dooku's level.

ILS
When I see anything suggesting Dooku can replicate Maul's salvo with Sheev at the end of their duel I'll admit Dooku is on his.

But seriously, my general approach to that argument is that while Dooku lasted longer he did less in the given time than Maul with Sheev (kicked that old man's torso), and while Dooku ended his fight out of necessity (his reserves were flagging and Yoda was clearly handling him), Maul's was cut short because he lost a bout of pure strength. I view both as apprentices giving their masters shit before being pointed out as clear inferiors.

Nephthys
Maul was also pissed as **** from having his brother murdered right in front of him for that and all he managed was a kick while Sidious was toying with him. He was in the best condition he could be whereas Dooku had just dueled Anakin and Obi-Wan back to back and had a Force contest with Yoda. It was also directly stated that Sidious "never wavered from his position of superiority" so it's not like that kick was even a big deal in any way.

Dooku was able to keep up with Yoda to an extent and legit duel him whereas Sidious was pissing around with Maul. In the book it's made clear that when Sidious got serious Maul couldn't possibly keep up.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
And it's that mindset that prevents much of the possibly intelligent debate surrounding Maul and Dooku, Tempy-poo. Guys like Beni get so attached to the idea of Dooku > Maul that when faced with the possibility of it not being so, he resorts to desperation tactics like Barlow's contradictory commentary. I'm all for Dooku > Maul if and when the right argument comes along for it. LMAO. Unprovoked mudslinging only paints you as the desperate one Swords. thumb up

Regardless I agree with Neph, the novelisation indicates Sidious ramped up the intensity of his assault over the course of that bout, to the point of which Maul couldn't even perceive him. Dooku on the other hand held out against Yoda going full out from the get go.

ILS
@Neph
That was part of why he was pissed, the other part was that he was replaced by none other than Dooku himself. In fact the latter part is visibly what enrages him. I don't think he'd be any less pissed if he had to fight Dooku himself. Also, Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan "easily" to quote recent material, I'm not sure why he was overly taxed fighting Yoda. Force users don't flag in stamina that easily. Maul wasn't in perfect shape, either, given that his head had a meeting with a wall shortly before fighting Sheev (though I don't use that as an excuse, Maul's been hitting the gym too long for a little concussion to matter). Yoda never wavered from his position of superiority either, it doesn't preclude the idea that the other side is doing a good job in their own right. I'm pretty sure Sheev wasn't planning on being kicked after Maul forced him into leaping over a cut at his legs. As I mentioned to Temp before, Sheev has this look of "I'm getting tired of this shit" a couple of times near the end (before he TKs Maul the first time and before he disarms him, IIRC). Clearly Maul was presenting something of an issue for him. Taking his prior enjoyment of toying with them away.

Sidious wasn't totally pissing around at the end of his fight with Maul (visually he's responding to Maul's own increased vigor), just like Yoda wasn't trying to totally slaughter Dooku. It was always clear Sidious was going to win, but it ended up being sheer strength and TK that ended the fight.

I view the Shadow Conspiracy duel as what would have happened if Sheev was really going all-out. In that one he ramps up his speed beyond Maul's comfortable responding to and disarms him. In the episode he just overpowers him.

ILS
Originally posted by Beniboybling
LMAO. Unprovoked mudslinging only paints you as the desperate one Swords. thumb up

Regardless I agree with Neph, the novelisation indicates Sidious ramped up the intensity of his assault over the course of that bout, to the point of which Maul couldn't even perceive him. Dooku on the other hand held out against Yoda going full out from the get go. Eh, passive aggressive sideline commentary over the course of several threads does you no favours either, Benjamin. Hence why you're responding emotionally now.

Proof Yoda was going "full out"? Most versions of the fight describe him as fighting defensively for the first portion of the duel and then developing an offence later on after deflecting everything Dooku had to offer. Kind of like... what happened with Sidious.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ILS
And it's that mindset that prevents much of the possibly intelligent debate surrounding Maul and Dooku, Tempy-poo. Guys like Beni get so attached to the idea of Dooku > Maul that when faced with the possibility of it not being so, he resorts to desperation tactics like Barlow's contradictory commentary. I'm all for Dooku > Maul if and when the right argument comes along for it.

Hey, I'll sing your praises all day long. Your personal crusade with Maul is one of the most impressive ones I've seen, here and elsewhere. I've long believed he deserves to be considered among the big leagues and you've pretty much singlehandedly affirmed that.

But I find Dooku to be the greater apprentice, by however slim a margin. In addition to all the accolades and feats he has to his name, I highly doubt that Sheev would have passed on Maul if he actually thought Maul was a better disciple than the good Count.

As far as Maul's ability to challenge Sidious is concerned, though, I thought we were all in agreement that Maul's not really a viable threat to Sheev in one on one combat. Per the 40th issue of the new Fact Files:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Mandalore%20Fact%20File_zpsrkmdeu5b.png

JKBart
I don't think even ILS ever supported the notion of Maul having any smallest contest with Palpatine 1v1.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by JKBart
I don't think even ILS ever supported the notion of Maul having any smallest contest with Palpatine 1v1.

His recent posts in this very thread do indicate that he believes Maul to be something of a challenge, which defies what we know of the duel.

ILS
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hey, I'll sing your praises all day long. Your personal crusade with Maul is one of the most impressive ones I've seen, here and elsewhere. I've long believed he deserves to be considered among the big leagues and you've pretty much singlehandedly affirmed that.Appreciated. cool

It was pretty clear Maul wasn't interested in being Sheev's apprentice again, though. Hence why Sidious acknowledged him as a "rival", due to the military foothold and Sith apprentice he had acquired. If Sheev was so sure Dooku was better, why not have Dooku deal with Maul personally the way he allows him to take on the Chosen One and his master simultaneously?
We are in agreement there. As for the quote, it's actually true. He did defeat Maul easily. It wasn't difficult to rip his saber from his hand and throw him around like a wet cloth. I merely dispute that he had to put in some legwork to get to that point.

http://i.imgur.com/nmo3wbl.png

One is not amused. And again, just before Sheev TK-KO'd Maul the first time, when Maul and Savage pulled some cool synergy move that forced Sheev into a cartwheel.

http://i.imgur.com/1kDVpTl.png

I think he always had victory in the bag, his far superior Force mastery saw to that, but his facial expression betrays a hint of .. contempt? Effort? Who knows. My point is I don't think Dooku's showing against Yoda is necessarily better. Different in function, maybe, but not better.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
Eh, passive aggressive sideline commentary over the course of several threads does you no favours either, Benjamin. Hence why you're responding emotionally now.I learn from the best. smile First of all I'm not arguing that Dooku had any kind of advantage over Yoda. But at no point in the fight, in any source that I am aware of, is Dooku's described as so overwhelmed by Yoda's assault as to be incapable of perceiving him.

If that were the case it stands to reason that within the 30 seconds it took to defeat Maul, Yoda would have overpowered Dooku, yet the Count escaped without being disarmed or injured.

But to answer your question, yes Yoda initially deflects Dooku's own attack with little difficulty, but then he hits back with an assault that seems no less full out than Sidious, which Dooku withstands:

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

And as far as strength is concerned, Dooku vs Yoda ends in a bladelock as well:

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.

Yet unlike Palpatine, Yoda is unable to overpower his opponent.

Obviously the fights are not identical, but in general Dooku handles Yoda a lot better, which seems a much stronger case than, well whatever the argument actually is for Maul being above him.

Lets not ignore Palpatine's telekinetic domination of Maul either. I'm not about to claim that its necessarily outside Yoda's ability to do the same to Dooku, but various statements do indicate they were far more evenly matched:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ILS
It was pretty clear Maul wasn't interested in being Sheev's apprentice again, though. Hence why Sidious acknowledged him as a "rival", due to the military foothold and Sith apprentice he had acquired.

Maul was deemed a rival precisely because he wasn't Sheev's apprentice any longer. Prior to "The Lawless," Maul never intrudes upon his former Master's design and deliberately avoids him. When he senses Sidious's arrival, Maul is terrified.

Obviously I don't think Maul was interested in being "genuinely" loyal to Sheev, but then neither was Dooku. I do think that when Maul dropped to one knee and pledged his allegiance to Sheev, it was a genuine effort to avoid the asskicking that was about to commence.

Originally posted by ILS
If Sheev was so sure Dooku was better, why not have Dooku deal with Maul personally the way he allows him to take on the Chosen One and his master simultaneously?

Because he's actively interested in Anakin as a replacement and is testing each of them against the other. He's not actively interested in Maul at all as an apprentice.

Originally posted by ILS
We are in agreement there. As for the quote, it's actually true. He did defeat Maul easily. It wasn't difficult to rip his saber from his hand and throw him around like a wet cloth. I merely dispute that he had to put in some legwork to get to that point.

http://i.imgur.com/nmo3wbl.png

One is not amused. And again, just before Sheev TK-KO'd Maul the first time, when Maul and Savage pulled some cool synergy move that forced Sheev into a cartwheel.

http://i.imgur.com/1kDVpTl.png

I think he always had victory in the bag, his far superior Force mastery saw to that, but his facial expression betrays a hint of .. contempt? Effort? Who knows. My point is I don't think Dooku's showing against Yoda is necessarily better. Different in function, maybe, but not better.

I agree that Sheev was irritated when Maul landed that kick. I don't think he was bothered by anything else prior to that point. And I most certainly don't consider Maul's performance against Sheev to be better than Dooku's against Yoda. Maul was ultimately disarmed and beaten like a tattered ragdoll. Obviously Dooku wasn't going to win against Yoda, but his duel didn't end that way.

ILS
@Beni

And Maul held strong against Sidious' strikes, as well. As for the blade-lock quote, nothing there indicates Yoda was "unable" to overpower Dooku. He was slowing pressing Dooku's saber back, which is when Dooku runs. It's my belief that if Yoda held little compassion for Dooku and was as brutal and sadistic as Sidious, he would have broken his guard and made a telekinetic plaything of him just as Sidious did Maul. But he didn't, because that's not how Yoda operates.

Running with the idea that Yoda and Sidious are peers, and Dooku can bladelock Yoda without being "overpowered" while Sidious can easily overpower Maul, do explain to me why Maul can deflect strikes from Savage Opress one-handed that have sent Dooku flying through the air? I'm aware you're also a supporter of Savage who doesn't dismiss these accomplishments of his.

In other words, Yoda clearly wasn't in as much of a brutal hurry as Palpatine to end the fight. He deflected everything that was thrown at him in the Force and physically, easily, slowly wore Dooku down and then congratulated in him on a good effort. Sidious afforded Maul none of the same courtesy, which is why I find the comparison to be faulty. And yeno, Maul at least kicked dat old man's torso.

As for the final two quotes, it wouldn't be the first time supplementary sources which attempt to summarize a fight are somewhat inaccurate. The primary source material, the movies/cartoons, hold the actual truth. Otherwise I'd cite The Dark Side Sourcebook claiming Maul "nearly" defeated Sidious as a totally worn-out and injured teenager.

JKBart
windu beats both

ILS
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maul was deemed a rival precisely because he wasn't Sheev's apprentice any longer. Prior to "The Lawless," Maul never intrudes upon his former Master's design and deliberately avoids him. When he senses Sidious's arrival, Maul is terrified.
He avoided Sidious because he didn't yet have the resources to tackle him. He avoided the Jedi in the same way.
You realize I'm not disagreeing right? Dooku was playing along with being Sidious' apprentice with the intention of killing him. That doesn't imply superiority over Maul because, as we know, Maul was out of the picture before Dooku was being considered as a replacement- Sidious never planned to lose Maul.

And yes, Maul bent the knee to avoid having his ass kicked. Not seeing the relevance this has pertaining to Dooku. Dooku willingly kept his knee bent up until his death by Sheev's new apprentice and had never at any point even mounted an attempt to overthrow him.
So what's your argument? That Dooku is better than Maul because Sidious took him on as a placeholder while he presumed Maul dead, and continued to keep him as a placeholder when Maul returned with the intention of decapitating his old master? I'm not seeing the logic. Both Dooku and Maul were irrelevant when Anakin was introduced. The only difference is only one of them was interested in serving Palpatine.
His duel didn't end that way because Dooku was fighting Yoda - a Jedi who still held a lot of emotional attachment to Dooku - opposed to Maul fighting Sidious, Star Wars' greatest sadist. Dooku himself shits his pants at the notion of a Dark-Sided Yoda in Dark Rendezvous IIRC, and for good reason. To interpret Yoda and Sidious' duels with their apprentices in as black and white a manner as "Dooku lasted longer, Maul got beaten up, Dooku's better" is to openly disregard what makes the four of them tick as characters.

JKBart
Originally posted by JKBart
windu beats both

The_Tempest

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Who wins the fight, temp? smile

JKBart
Maul and Dooku are incomparable to Jadus and Barsen'thor, so whoever wins between these two wins it for the team. I honestly can't decide.

Jadus is somewhat comparable to Malgus in terms of Force power (so Yoda/Caedus level somewhere), but his actual combat ability is completely unknown and impossible to judge. They should be somewhat relatable to his Force power, even if the disparty is as large as in the case of, for instance, Kyp Durron, but we don't know. On the other hand, Barsen'thor isn't as impressive with the Force, but is definitely more solid combatant.

Probably would side with Barsen'thor on that account, and if he can defeat Jadus, Maul is meaningless.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
And Maul held strong against Sidious' strikes, as well.Not in Shadow Conspiracy, which makes it explicit that Maul could not handle Palpatine's offensive speed and ferocity:

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

Granted in TCW manages to get in a hit, but I don't see this as giving justification to ignoring the novelisation, when the extent to which he handled his attacks on screen is ultimately down to the viewer's subjective interpretation.Unable? No. Unable to do so as quickly as Sidious was? Definitely. Considering his advantage is explicitly slight, and Dooku was able to divert his attention and his grip to collapsing a structure on Kenobi and Anakin, without Yoda stopping/disarming him.

Maul was hardly in any kind of position to do that against Palpy.Your beliefs are all well and good, but they are assumptions if not substantiated with evidence. No Yoda is not as brutal and sadistic as Sidious, but it's a leap in logic to assume that this prevented him from applying the full extent of his power.

As far as Yoda's compassion is concerned I'd reference Dark Rendezvous:

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Granted Yoda here likely lacks the same lethal intent, but it demonstrates that he has enough self-mastery to prevent his emotions from unbalancing him. In fact, a compassionate application of the Force that doesn't compromise on strength is a key tenet of Jedi lightsaber combat and general offense.

Yoda is also more than capable of disarming Dooku without maiming him, and frankly incapacitating him with the Force without excessive violence or malice.

On the other hand, I concur with Temp, Sidious was not applying lethal force either.I'm sure you know the answer to that question, Dooku is at stylistic disadvantage against strong style opponents, nor does he possess Maul's natural, and therefore easily accessible, physical strength.On the contrary, Yoda should absolutely be assumed to have been in a hurry to defeat Dooku. Considering the consequences of allowing him to escape include plunging the entire galaxy into war. The fact that Kenobi and Anakin were lying their maimed and without medical attention would be something of a motivator as well.

Worse that we should assume Yoda was prolonging the fight because what, he was enjoying himself? Or was he was completely ignorant of the magnitude of the task before him? We shouldn't assume anything casual about this fight at all.

I'd also note that according to The Jedi Path, Ataru is a form geared towards ending a fight quickly with "short but devastating bursts" designed to rip through your opponents defense, so this notion that he was "slowly wearing him down" is what's not how Yoda operates.

Indeed to re-quote the text:

"With a sudden burst of sheer power. Master Yoda flew forward Dooku held strong, though or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

It's evident that Yoda was attempting to overwhelming him quickly with the aforementioned strategy, and if Dooku's defense hadn't been sufficient, it would have ended then and there. Like it did with Maul in Shadow Conspiracy.

And the apparent courtesies he extended aside, note that Yoda was screaming something fierce the entire time. He was in fully serious, shit-panting mode as far as I'm concerned.Key word here being "somewhat", I'm not suggesting you take these statements seriously. But as the quote you raised indicates Sidious was pressed by Maul's vicious assault in TPM (which he was), these indicate Yoda was not so superior to Dooku that he could dominate him, as you have assumed.

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