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*Canon Piell

Force sabers all out

Piell

I don't think Kanan can realistically defeat a High Council member, bar someone like Trebor.

Kanan.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Kanan.

Are you serious?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Are you serious?

Well I think it's a good fight and I figure since no one else is going to I might as well debate for the underdog.

Ok then, I'm not sure what Kanan has done that compares with a fully trained Jedi master. Kanan still has trouble with Seventh Sister.

Well let's look at this feat by feat. Starting off with the Force I'd ask you Even's best feat.

Also GI was a former Jedi Knight and Temple Guardsmen who was skilled enough to note Kanan's form and master from exchanging a few blows. As we saw Kanan improved throughout his fights with GI to the point that he defeated him in a focused state. Seventh Sister while debatably not as powerful as GI at the time of his defeat would certainly have grown in skill and power as time passed in Rebels. As we saw in a recent episode Kanan was able to handle SS just fine whilst holding a conversation with Ezra. Ezra got into trouble against FB although that's not too much of a mark against him considering how long he's been training. Kanan dropped his fight against SS to aid him. Other then that he seemed to be managing fine against her. Personally I believe SS is likely superior to GI at this point. As we've seen in numerous other Force Users like Ferus Olin and Galen Marek force users can grow in power very quickly. We also see Ahsoka and Kanan fighting SS, FB and the new Inquisitor in a preview which would imply Kanan at times holds his own against 2 of them at once.

Even Piell doesn't really have many feats in Canon (I'm not sure if he has many in Legends, either), but in terms of accolades, he is revered for his telekinetic powers (Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know) and "excelled in lightsaber combat, seeming to have integrated every possible fighting style" (Tarkin).

Fair enough and while that denotes versatility I would question superiority.

In regards to telekinesis while I'm sure Piell is impressive Kanan's applications have been shown to be some of the best in the mythos from a creative standpoint and his own raw power is impressive. Some examples of this being his ability to use telekinesis whilst falling to push himself against the ground and lessen his acceleration so as to allow himself to land without injury from a great height. Another example was when Ezra was falling into an abyss he reached out with the Force and brought him back to safety. This might seem standard at first glance but Kanan would have had to applied just the right amount of pressure to have caught Ezra without injuring him. He has also shown an impressive ability to retain his balance and employ immovability when he managed to hold onto the Mandalorian fighter while they were high in the air and the fighter was attempting to throw him off. Powerwise he has held up what is described to be a mountain of rubble and has landed a force push on Vader in conjunction with Ezra. Granted Vader wasn't taking the fight seriously but I find it doubtful he wouldn't have had some sort of defenses up.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough and while that denotes versatility I would question superiority.

In regards to telekinesis while I'm sure Piell is impressive Kanan's applications have been shown to be some of the best in the mythos from a creative standpoint and his own raw power is impressive.

Uh, what?

Originally posted by Syndicate
This might seem standard at first glance

Thats because they are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, what?

I don't really know how to respond to this... You do understand I explained my position directly below that right?

You sure did say some things, yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You sure did say some things, yes.

And you have yet to counter them. :P I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Thats because they are.

Except they're not and I go on to explain this in the next sentence. You should really learn to read more carefully Neph dear.

I'm not convinced that it's necessary to counter the argument that someones one of the best in the mythos for performing rudimentary applications when we have people manipulating subatomic particles, disintegrating people or wielding 3 lightsabers etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not convinced that it's necessary to counter the argument that someones one of the best in the mythos for performing rudimentary applications when we have people manipulating subatomic particles or wielding 3 lightsabers etc.

As I said Kanan is using very technical applications of the Force here as he's pushing against the ground with the exact amount of Force nessecary not to injure himself in the blow back but to soften his landing so he doesn't get smashed on impact.

With Ezra he's applying enough Force to catch him but not dislocate his bones meaning he'd also have to know how fast Ezra was falling.

If you can't see why these uses of the force aren't both creative and technical then I don't know what to tell you. You also have yet to counter any of my other points.

But then you can ignore them if you want since Kanan is generally looked down upon on this forum. It would just make me lose a lot of respect for you knowing that you wouldn't even entertain a debate on a character who you believe to be so far below his opponent. It's your choice though.

Those are things any half-trained Jedi could pull off.

Not hurting yourself and others with TK isn't exactly some epic display of mastery. It's more like basic competency.

I'll respond to you later I guess, Syn.

Also, I think pushing against the ground with the Force to prevent yourself from splattering should be a pretty basic ability for all Jedi, so they don't, you know, fall to their deaths on missions.

Yeah that's something TCW S1 Ahsoka did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those are things any half-trained Jedi could pull off.

Not hurting yourself and others with TK isn't exactly some epic display of mastery.

Eh? I don't really see a half trained Jedi being able to manipulate the Force in such a controlled way. I don't think you're realizing that you can't just use the Force to do whatever you want. You can't just think of catching someone and do it. You would have to manipulate the air currents around them or catch the object itself with a delicate enough grip not to shatter it ( if an inanimate object ) or injure it ( if it's a living being ).

Given Vader was unable to catch Luke when he chose to let himself fall I'd imagine its pretty difficult to catch a moving and living target without injuring it. Not saying Vader would be incapable of such a feat but its obvious he was unable to do so after a long drawn out fight where he'd been injured.

Unless you want to mark that one down to PIS.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I'll respond to you later I guess, Syn.

Also, I think pushing against the ground with the Force to prevent yourself from splattering should be a pretty basic ability for all Jedi, so they don't, you know, fall to their deaths on missions.

I don't believe we've actually never seen that ( though correct me if I'm wrong ). All Force jumps used in the past have simply been the strengthening of their leg muscles so that they can accomplish the jump and land without hurting themselves. Kanan actually pushed against the ground to decelerate himself and lessen the impact.

Here's a video that sort of shows what I believe Jedi to be doing when accomplishing force jumps and other acrobatics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5EvmcGizQ

Gon is using Nen instead of the Force but you get the picture. He's empowering certain parts of his body to tank the kinetic energy. I believe Jedi do much the same when accomplish their acrobatics.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah that's something TCW S1 Ahsoka did.

Force jumps or actively using TK to decelerate from great heights? There's a difference mate.

Kek, no there isn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kek, no there isn't.

Proof it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Force jumps or actively using TK to decelerate from great heights? There's a difference mate. Yes, she's done exactly what Kanan has done on Geonosis.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Yes, she's done exactly what Kanan has done on Geonosis.

Scene? If so I'd be impressed.

You shouldn't be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You shouldn't be.

Given the physics behind it I wouldn't be able to help it. :P

Originally posted by Syndicate
Scene? If so I'd be impressed. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4925020-14fdac7916b6d8ad0899e0de4db7a42f.gif

Deleted.

No she didn't. She pauses in mid-air.

Are you blind?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4925020-14fdac7916b6d8ad0899e0de4db7a42f.gif

Fair enough. The impressiveness of the feat simply extends to Anakin and Ahsoka as well.

You guys are fast. :P I thought the pause was the gif freezing. My apologies.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Are you blind?
Look at who it is.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4925020-14fdac7916b6d8ad0899e0de4db7a42f.gif

She and Anakin did a waaaaay bigger jump once, like at least a km. Can't recall which episode though.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Look at who it is.

Lol. Vicious. Can't even make one mistake.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
She and Anakin did a waaaaay bigger jump once, like at least a km. Can't recall which episode though.

Fair enough though we weren't really discussing the distance but the applications of TK in slowing a fall.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
She and Anakin did a waaaaay bigger jump once, like at least a km. Can't recall which episode though. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4936886-0879341311-fa030.gif

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4936886-0879341311-fa030.gif

They don't seem to be using TK in this one though it doesn't really matter considering you showed they were able to do it in another episode. However yes their jumps are indeed impressive. :P I'm sure it would be a factor if they were to fight Kanan but considering the fight is between Kanan and Evan Piell...

watch?v=x5s-iJkt7zo

Originally posted by Syndicate
Lol. Vicious. Can't even make one mistake.
You'll be stronger for it. Joker was once as weak as you are now.

wut

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You'll be stronger for it. Joker was once as weak as you are now.

Except none of you have actually addressed any of my points except KJ. You yourself have only briefly posted to deny my evidence without offering any counter evidence and to nitpick a small error I fixed literally seconds later. :P Think what you want though. I don't hold so tightly to a forum reputation especially on KMC.

I have no interest in Kanan, or talking to you about Kanan, so I wouldn't adress any points you made anyway.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
wut
Before you were weak. Now, you are slightly less weak. Your progress is impressive, but you'll never be truly strong until you cast Ahsoka aside.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I have no interest in Kanan, or talking to you about Kanan, so I wouldn't adress any points you made anyway.

Before you were weak. Now, you are slightly less weak. Your progress is impressive, but you'll never be truly strong until you cast Ahsoka aside.

Then I'd ask you to not make pointless unsupported statements that add nothing to the conversation.

Alright I'm off to defend Galen on CV and eat lunch. I'll respond to any stuff later this afternoon.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Then I'd ask you to not make pointless unsupported statements that add nothing to the conversation.
Maybe I should rephrase to: I'm not interested in yet another pointless conversation with someone who talks nonsense half the time, but would actually like to see what everyone else has to say. I can make as many pointless, but on topic, statements as I want.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maybe I should rephrase to: I'm not interested in yet another pointless conversation with someone who talks nonsense half the time, but would actually like to see what everyone else has to say. I can make as many pointless, but on topic, statements as I want.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear the first time around.

I'd ask you to not make pointless unsupported statements that add nothing to the conversation.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough and while that denotes versatility I would question superiority.

In regards to telekinesis while I'm sure Piell is impressive Kanan's applications have been shown to be some of the best in the mythos from a creative standpoint and his own raw power is impressive. Some examples of this being his ability to use telekinesis whilst falling to push himself against the ground and lessen his acceleration so as to allow himself to land without injury from a great height. Another example was when Ezra was falling into an abyss he reached out with the Force and brought him back to safety. This might seem standard at first glance but Kanan would have had to applied just the right amount of pressure to have caught Ezra without injuring him. He has also shown an impressive ability to retain his balance and employ immovability when he managed to hold onto the Mandalorian fighter while they were high in the air and the fighter was attempting to throw him off. Powerwise he has held up what is described to be a mountain of rubble and has landed a force push on Vader in conjunction with Ezra. Granted Vader wasn't taking the fight seriously but I find it doubtful he wouldn't have had some sort of defenses up. If he "excelled" in lightsaber combat, I'm guessing he has a natural aptitude for it and is pretty impressive in his own right. He has a lot of knowledge to draw from and has "integrated every possible fighting style" in combat. Granted, Kanan has defended against the G.I. who has a vast knowledge of lightsaber combat, but I question the Inquisitor's standing relative to High Council Masters like Even.

I'm also impressed with Kanan's Force usage, but frankly those are pretty basic abilities. You can discuss physics all day (I won't, it's Star Wars, are we really going to bring in physics? Gross.) but it's really just obvious the abilities Kanan has displayed should be basic knowledge for all Jedi, if they want to survive every day scenarios. Also, can you quote me Kanan holding up "a mountain of rubble"? And if I recall correctly, Vader was looking up at the AT-ST explosion when Kanan & Ezra Force pushed him, and Kanan exploited his lapse of concentration. It happens a lot in canon.

As I said, Even doesn't have many feats to draw from (I did just remember in "The Citadel" when Even destroyed four SBDs with a single Force push) but I think his accolades and standing within the Order should put him ahead of Kanan.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Apparently I didn't make myself clear the first time around.

I'd ask you to not make pointless unsupported statements that add nothing to the conversation.
(a pointless unsupported statement(whatever that means) that adds nothing to the conversation)

Originally posted by |King Joker|
If he "excelled" in lightsaber combat, I'm guessing he has a natural aptitude for it and is pretty impressive in his own right. He has a lot of knowledge to draw from and has "integrated every possible fighting style" in combat. Granted, Kanan has defended against the G.I. who has a vast knowledge of lightsaber combat, but I question the Inquisitor's standing relative to High Council Masters like Even.

I'm also impressed with Kanan's Force usage, but frankly those are pretty basic abilities. You can discuss physics all day (I won't, it's Star Wars, are we really going to bring in physics? Gross.) but it's really just obvious the abilities Kanan has displayed should be basic knowledge for all Jedi, if they want to survive every day scenarios. Also, can you quote me Kanan holding up "a mountain of rubble"? And if I recall correctly, Vader was looking up at the AT-ST explosion when Kanan & Ezra Force pushed him, and Kanan exploited his lapse of concentration. It happens a lot in canon.

As I said, Even doesn't have many feats to draw from (I did just remember in "The Citadel" when Even destroyed four SBDs with a single Force push) but I think his accolades and standing within the Order should put him ahead of Kanan.

True enough and I would say that it's likely sabers to sabers Even is superior though of course Kanan did improve against the GI in every encounter and the same should apply to his fights with the other Inquisitors.

Personally I take the physics into account though I'd understand if you didn't want to.

I can. Give me a moment. I freely admit Vader's full attention was not focused on them but I don't believe he would have lowered his force shields completely without good reason even against opponents that were not on his level.

Probably but like I said I want to defend Kanan here since he's the underdog.

"A mountain of rubble" is a hyperbolic description.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well let's look at this feat by feat. Starting off with the Force I'd ask you Even's best feat.

Also GI was a former Jedi Knight and Temple Guardsmen who was skilled enough to note Kanan's form and master from exchanging a few blows. As we saw Kanan improved throughout his fights with GI to the point that he defeated him in a focused state. Seventh Sister while debatably not as powerful as GI at the time of his defeat would certainly have grown in skill and power as time passed in Rebels. As we saw in a recent episode Kanan was able to handle SS just fine whilst holding a conversation with Ezra. Ezra got into trouble against FB although that's not too much of a mark against him considering how long he's been training. Kanan dropped his fight against SS to aid him. Other then that he seemed to be managing fine against her. Personally I believe SS is likely superior to GI at this point. As we've seen in numerous other Force Users like Ferus Olin and Galen Marek force users can grow in power very quickly. We also see Ahsoka and Kanan fighting SS, FB and the new Inquisitor in a preview which would imply Kanan at times holds his own against 2 of them at once.

Seeing as Piellhas very little in amount of feats, I don't think I can really respomd to this like I normally would. The fight with the GI, was not something proving Kanan was greater than him. He still has trouble with the SS. I'm not seeing that the inquisitors increase in power. Once you send them out into the field, there are done with therir training. They don't get more unless under special circumstances, just look at FB and how bad he is. So while I see your point, it still doesn't answer to how any of them here are on level with a fully trained and very well experienced Jedi Master. That simple fact makes Kanan a half trained, not significantly powerful in the force, not really experienced, who only got his win moment with the GI, by it being run by Disney, not seeing him beat any Jedi Master.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A mountain of rubble" is a hyperbolic description.

Considering the context of the novel was the mining of a moon made of thorilite and the fact that several levels collapsed bringing down the weight of all the levels above that one I'd say its pretty accurate. I'll try to find the exact quote for you.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Seeing as Piellhas very little in amount of feats, I don't think I can really respomd to this like I normally would. The fight with the GI, was not something proving Kanan was greater than him. He still has trouble with the SS. I'm not seeing that the inquisitors increase in power. Once you send them out into the field, there are done with therir training. They don't get more unless under special circumstances, just look at FB and how bad he is. So while I see your point, it still doesn't answer to how any of them here are on level with a fully trained and very well experienced Jedi Master. That simple fact makes Kanan a half trained, not significantly powerful in the force, not really experienced, who only got his win moment with the GI, by it being run by Disney, not seeing him beat any Jedi Master.

So basically you're response is "Evan's a master Jedi, Kanan never completed his training. Regardless of feats this should make Evan Kanan's superior." Correct?

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A mountain of rubble" is a hyperbolic description.

--unless it's on top of Malgus. Then it's a real mountain.

I'm pretty sure I've never actually said that and I have a 20 page argument with Legend to prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice


Before you were weak. Now, you are slightly less weak. lol

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Before you were weak. Now, you are slightly less weak. Your progress is impressive, but you'll never be truly strong until you cast Ahsoka aside.