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Round 1: Legends/Canon Kenobi vs. Current Maul

Round 2: Canon versions only


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111265721/4931330-8866316281-ll_be.jpg

vs.

http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,h_380,w_612/t_mp_quality/odtconzzuxlcvqei8in2/the-old-master-is-back-in-the-season-2-finale-of-star-wars-rebels-904984.jpg

Even or slight edge to Maul, IMO.

Kanan stomps.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even or slight edge to Maul, IMO.

Maul's physical abilities don't seem to have atrophied (at least not as much as Kenobi's) and he may still have a Force advantage, so I'm going with him.

Has Maul used the Force offensively in duels, yet?

He ragdolled the Seventh Sister.

Ben wins.

Maul.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul rags.

This Kenobi downplaying shit needs to stop. He gave a far better fight against Vader than even Ahsoka did. At best Maul is on par with Ahsoka.

Kenobi takes it in a good fight.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This Kenobi downplaying shit needs to stop. He gave a far better fight against Vader than even Ahsoka did. At best Maul is on par with Ahsoka.

Kenobi takes it in a good fight.

https://media.giphy.com/media/12OTxgtyHG11QI/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This Kenobi downplaying shit needs to stop. He gave a far better fight against Vader than even Ahsoka did. At best Maul is on par with Ahsoka.

Kenobi takes it in a good fight. Can you explain to me how exactly Kenobi gave a better fight against Vader than Ahsoka, even though their engagement was shorter and Ahsoka actually tagged Vader a couple times?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even or slight edge to Maul, IMO.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Can you explain to me how exactly Kenobi gave a better fight against Vader than Ahsoka, even though their engagement was shorter and Ahsoka actually tagged Vader a couple times?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-11-2015/jWvOPj.gif

It's like saying Qui-Gon did as well as CW Kenobi against Maul, it's just... wrong.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
It's like saying Qui-Gon did as well as CW Kenobi against Maul, it's just... wrong.
Ahsoka had two lightsabers, which is the win button of canon. Obviously she cheated. And still lost.

LOL

Originally posted by Syndicate
Kanan stomps.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Can you explain to me how exactly Kenobi gave a better fight against Vader than Ahsoka, even though their engagement was shorter and Ahsoka actually tagged Vader a couple times?



At no point did Vader ever gain an advantage against Kenobi until Obi-Wan intentionally lets himself die.

Well the only thing that makes sense is that Ben Kenobi got stronger. But...that seems so wrong and against Lucas' vision.

Nah, just because it doesn't say Vader was superior doesn't mean he wasn't. The text even highlights Ben's weakness at the start.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, just because it doesn't say Vader was superior doesn't mean he wasn't. The text even highlights Ben's weakness at the start.

Its not physical weakness though. Its mental weakness. Kind of similar to in the ROTS Novel when Yoda realizes he just doesn't have it in him to defeat the Sith in the traditional manner. That doesn't mean that Yoda magically dropped to a tier below Sidious though.

Mental weakness is physical weakness for Jedi though. Their abilities are heavily impacted by mindset.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mental weakness is physical weakness for Jedi though. Their abilities are heavily impacted by mindset.

Yeah I agree. But that just adds fuel to my argument. After 3 minutes of dueling Vader couldn't find a single opening in Kenobi's form even when the latter wasn't in what we'd call peak condition.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah I agree. But that just adds fuel to my argument. After 3 minutes of dueling Vader couldn't find a single opening in Kenobi's form even when the latter wasn't in what we'd call peak condition. I don't think their fight was three minutes...

On the other hand, Ahsoka actually tagged Vader a couple times and there's a good portion of off-screen fighting, so I'd definitely put that above Ben.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I don't think their fight was three minutes...

On the other hand, Ahsoka actually tagged Vader a couple times and there's a good portion of off-screen fighting, so I'd definitely put that above Ben.

First off Joker, Ahsoka's fight with Vader is MAX 2:30 and that's including a lot of dialogue. And she was on the run the whole fight. Their first tussle was roughly a minute.

sq51w34Hg9I

Ben Kenobi and Vader fight for 3 minutes including a bit of dialogue.

She wasn't on the run. Pushed back doesn't equal to on the run. Sure, Vader had the advantage most of the fight, but Ahsoka never let him penetrate her defenses.

And... We know it's canon and all, but Vader vs. Ben has to be the stupidest even fight in all of SW.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
And... We know it's canon and all, but Vader vs. Ben has to be the stupidest even fight in all of SW.

I agree, Kenobi is not allowed to have good feats unless they are circumstantial.

I think Force users' prime is their 40-50 usually, which both their Force skills and physical strength was great. Starting from 60, their Force technique might get better but their body started to get weaker. Dark Sider users could extend their prime by a decade.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And... We know it's canon and all, but Vader vs. Ben has to be the stupidest even fight in all of SW.

Nr7ufR7utEo

She goes in on the offensive, Vader is taken aback at first and is TKed back. From that moment on its Vader's fight. You can tell from her strained expressions and from her back pedalling that she's fighting a losing battle.

And I agree. Vader vs. Ben makes no ****ing sense at all unless Kenobi got more powerful...like far more powerful. In fact, all the OT duels don't really make sense in the context of Vader being this GOD.

Well Stark, remember what Obi-Wan said.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

What is seen on screen, may not be the same as what happened in-universe, were looking at it from a different perspective.

So...Ben Kenobi is prime Kenobi? Oh poor GL. Rolling in his metaphorical grave right now.

@Stark: Their fight starts at 0:32 and continues to about 0:50, then resumes at 1:02 and pauses at 1:08 - resumes at 1:13 - and then they're sort of at a standoff at 1:43 until Ben dies, though granted there was some fencing during that standoff.

So, their entire fight where they were actually dueling and shit was like a minute and a half, maybe? Definitely not three minutes. Ahsoka held out longer in an extremely high-intensity fight, actually landing blows (kick to the head, Force push, slashing his face (circumstantial as it may be) etc) and, whether or not you consider this is up to you - but they were fighting on a Sith Temple which may or may not be a DS Nexus. So, yeah.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So...Ben Kenobi is prime Kenobi? Oh poor GL. Rolling in his metaphorical grave right now.

I think he is more powerful force user than in RotS, but out of practice and old...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I think he is more powerful force user than in RotS, but out of practice and old... I agree with that.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So...Ben Kenobi is prime Kenobi? Oh poor GL. Rolling in his metaphorical grave right now.
RotS-first 10 years Ben Kenobi should be his prime. Then his body starts to get weak while his Force technique is still great.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I think he is more powerful force user than in RotS, but out of practice and old...
His Force skills, maybe, but his physical strength and pace, not likely, Qui Gon Jinn was at the same age in EP I and it greatly affected him in the battle against Maul.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I agree, Kenobi is not allowed to have good feats unless they are circumstantial.

Exactly.


No, in all seriousness. Kenobi was supposed to be old and weak (or at least not as powerful as he was before) and out of practice. His fight against Vader doesn't make sense. Even GL knows it.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Exactly.


No, in all seriousness. Kenobi was supposed to be old and weak (or at least not as powerful as he was before) and out of practice. His fight against Vader doesn't make sense. Even GL knows it.
Vader was holding back because the last battle made him to be too careful.

Originally posted by |King Joker|

So, their entire fight where they were actually dueling and shit was like a minute and a half, maybe? Definitely not three minutes. Ahsoka held out longer in an extremely high-intensity fight, actually landing blows (kick to the head, Force push, slashing his face (circumstantial as it may be) etc) and, whether or not you consider this is up to you - but they were fighting on a Sith Temple which may or may not be a DS Nexus. So, yeah.

2.5 mins. They start fighting 30 secs in. I consider the fencing part of the fight. And Ahsoka gets BFR'ed by Vader within a minute of their fight then her sneak attack which lasts like a second. All in all MAYBE 1.5 mins of fighting before their fight is once again likely interrupted by the blast. The second part isn't really a fight though. The rest is off panel. Either way Vader could not push back Kenobi like he could push Ahsoka back.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Exactly.


No, in all seriousness. Kenobi was supposed to be old and weak (or at least not as powerful as he was before) and out of practice. His fight against Vader doesn't make sense. Even GL knows it.

Keep in mind GL doesn't think the OT duels compare to the PT's 'Prime of the Jedi'. This is intentional, Vader isn't meant to be this God tier swordsman.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

And I agree. Vader vs. Ben makes no ****ing sense at all unless Kenobi got more powerful...like far more powerful. In fact, all the OT duels don't really make sense in the context of Vader being this GOD.








But I'd say other than that one against Ben, his duels against ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke do make more sense. In ESB, we know he wasn't trying to kill him. In ROTJ, we know was psychologically and mentally conflicted (yeah, surprise surprise).

Maul is a Dark Sider, the half machine body might even extended his physical strength prime by a decade.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


But I'd say other than that one against Ben, his duels against ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke do make more sense. In ESB, we know he wasn't trying to kill him. In ROTJ, we know was psychologically and mentally conflicted (yeah, surprise surprise).

Yeah that's cool and I get that he got cocky against ESB Luke...but still if it were Dooku he would have just picked Luke up, blasted him with lightning and dragged him back to Coruscant, neg diff. While I know canonically Vader>Dooku, its really hard to view Vader in this light when he fails to apprehend a half trained boy.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
Maul is a Dark Sider, the half machine body might even extended his physical strength prime by a decade.

Maul is shattered and broken cowering in the shadow of Inquisitors (kek) he's not even close to his prime anymore.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah that's cool and I get that he got cocky against ESB Luke...but still if it were Dooku he would have just picked Luke up, blasted him with lightning and dragged him back to Coruscant, neg diff. While I know canonically Vader>Dooku, its really hard to view Vader in this light when he fails to apprehend a half trained boy.

True, Dooku would do that.

I think that's more to do with Vader not truly wanting to turn Luke, doe. This is just my opinion, of course. But I think the whole circumstance makes it rather different than if it were Dooku vs. Luke in ESB.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Maul is shattered and broken cowering in the shadow of Inquisitors (kek) he's not even close to his prime anymore.

Sure he might not be his prime, but his body still aged slower than most of the Jedi
.
I don't think he was afraid of the Inquisitors, but their master behind.

I remember in TOR, Satele Shan also said something about she wasn't suitable for the frontline job like years ago, she was close to 60 in the game.

I'll respond to you later Stark

Is Fightsaber even canon, though? And if it is, isn't it outdated?

It isn't, but that's the same source that says that Ben sucks donkey balls.

And it seems to be outdated with the new Canon since we see what Vader is capable of. But then why hold Ben in the same position he was in Legends, if you don't do it with Vader?

I'm not saying Ben sucks. Canonically, he doesn't. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, is all.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'm not saying Ben sucks. Canonically, he doesn't. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, is all.

Why not? Kenobi was already approaching Windu tier by RotS, and he was only 4 years older than him in ANH. It makes more sense than Ahsoka...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why not? Kenobi was already approaching Windu tier by RotS, and he was only 4 years older than him in ANH. It makes more sense than Ahsoka...

He was owned by Dooku badly.

It doesn't make sense in that Ben was supposed to be a shadow of his former self.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It doesn't make sense in that Ben was supposed to be a shadow of his former self.

And now we got back to where we started. Vader was suppose to be shit too...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why not? Kenobi was already approaching Windu tier by RotS, and he was only 4 years older than him in ANH. It makes more sense than Ahsoka...

Windu tier? Come on now. If Windu and Anakin went in on Dooku he wouldn't have evaded capture so easily on Oba-Diah.

Yeah this Vader wank is kind of obscene and kind of contradictory to George's vision all in the name of making some god tier benchmark for the half baked villain that is Kylo Ren.

Yes Windu tier. If you actually look at their respective feats and not just go lolragdoll then you see.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes Windu tier. If you actually look at their respective feats and not just go lolragdoll then you see.

"You have to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Sidious"

Originally posted by Lord Stark
First off Joker, Ahsoka's fight with Vader is MAX 2:30 and that's including a lot of dialogue. And she was on the run the whole fight. Their first tussle was roughly a minute.

sq51w34Hg9I

Ben Kenobi and Vader fight for 3 minutes including a bit of dialogue. Comparing the duration of Ahsoka and Kenobi's fights is not an accurate way of going about things, because they applied completely different tactics.

Kenobi wields Soresu a form that focus on defense, deflecting your opponents attacks long enough for them to tire while conserving your own energy, altogether extending the duration of any one lightsaber duel.

Ahsoka on the other hand wields an Ataru/Djem So hybrid, she wasn't deflecting Vader's attacks and taking him head on, that's going to burn up a lot of stamina and shorten the duration of the fight considerably.

Now lets consider for a moment that Kenobi used his Ataru form in this fight? Do you really think he'd have lasted as long? No. He's not as fast or as strong as Ahsoka is.

Kenobi used some Ataru too.

**** off he did, they were barely shuffling their feet. haermm

Tbh...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Comparing the duration of Ahsoka and Kenobi's fights is not an accurate way of going about things, because they applied completely different tactics.

Kenobi wields Soresu a form that focus on defense, deflecting your opponents attacks long enough for them to tire while conserving your own energy, altogether extending the duration of any one lightsaber duel.

Ahsoka on the other hand wields an Ataru/Djem So hybrid, she wasn't deflecting Vader's attacks and taking him head on, that's going to burn up a lot of stamina and shorten the duration of the fight considerably.

Now lets consider for a moment that Kenobi used his Ataru form in this fight? Do you really think he'd have lasted as long? No. He's not as fast or as strong as Ahsoka is.

Incorrect. It says in the script Vader takes a defensive form where as Kenobi is the aggressor. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/haermm.gif

Which was far to stayed to be something like Ataru, and demonstrated none of the stylistic traits of Djem So. I imagine he was using Shien or something. Certainly nothing energy-intensive.

And large portions of the fight remain Kenobi merely deflecting Vader's rather stayed assault. So I'd say my point stands.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Windu tier? Come on now. If Windu and Anakin went in on Dooku he wouldn't have evaded capture so easily on Oba-Diah.

Yeah this Vader wank is kind of obscene and kind of contradictory to George's vision all in the name of making some god tier benchmark for the half baked villain that is Kylo Ren.

I think Kylo has the potential to be a very good villain tbh.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I think Kylo has the potential to be a very good villain tbh.

By half baked I was mostly referring to his power level. But they are hyping Vader right now solely to advance Kylo's characterization.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which was far to stayed to be something like Ataru, and demonstrated none of the stylistic traits of Djem So. I imagine he was using Shien or something. Certainly nothing energy-intensive.

And large portions of the fight remain Kenobi merely deflecting Vader's rather stayed assault. So I'd say my point stands.

>Says Kenobi wasn't ragdolled in ANH because it's an old movie
>Says Kenobi didn't use Ataru because he was grounded in the movie


http://i.imgur.com/wW1dH66.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
By half baked I was mostly referring to his power level. But they are hyping Vader right now solely to advance Kylo's characterization.

Yeah, but I think it's good. I support the notion of Vader being a largely powerful Sith Lord. Imo it's better than GL's original intention, and it just makes one of the most iconic villain figures of all time all the more iconic.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
>Says Kenobi wasn't ragdolled in ANH because it's an old movie
>Says Kenobi didn't use Ataru because he was grounded in the movie


http://i.imgur.com/wW1dH66.gif Lel, Kenobi didn't use Ataru cause he was old, which was evidently what Lucas was attempting to potray.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lel, Kenobi didn't use Ataru cause he was old, which was evidently what Lucas was attempting to potray.

Yeah, just like Qui-Gon and Yoda didn't use Ataru...oh wait.

Ataru wasn't a thing when ANH came out.

And to be fair Yoda had the force reserves to augment himself to be capable of such acrobatics and Qui Gon dialed his version of Ataru back to the point where there wasn't much if any acrobatics involved.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yeah, but I think it's good. I support the notion of Vader being a largely powerful Sith Lord. Imo it's better than GL's original intention, and it just makes one of the most iconic villain figures of all time all the more iconic.

I disagree. This notion that a villain needs to be ridiculously powerful to be iconic is what got us into the disgusting mess of the EU with Nihilus and Starkiller, and the abomination that used to be SWTOR.

Vader is such an iconic villain because he is at his core a broken being, both physically and emotionally and a shadow of his former self...imo both physically and emotionally is way cooler than some hyped up Force God that became uber powerful with the loss of his limbs and the very reason he turned to the DS in the first place.

Holy shit yes.

Vader should be relatively pathetic. All the "OMG Vader is the coolest and most powerfulest" is a lot of fanboy wank that misses the point.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I disagree. This notion that a villain needs to be ridiculously powerful to be iconic is what got us into the disgusting mess of the EU with Nihilus and Starkiller, and the abomination that used to be SWTOR.

Vader is such an iconic villain because he is at his core a broken being, both physically and emotionally and a shadow of his former self...imo both physically and emotionally is way cooler than some hyped up Force God that became uber powerful with the loss of his limbs and the very reason he turned to the DS in the first place.

Galen's not a villain.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I disagree. This notion that a villain needs to be ridiculously powerful to be iconic is what got us into the disgusting mess of the EU with Nihilus and Starkiller, and the abomination that used to be SWTOR.

Vader is such an iconic villain because he is at his core a broken being, both physically and emotionally and a shadow of his former self...imo both physically and emotionally is way cooler than some hyped up Force God that became uber powerful with the loss of his limbs and the very reason he turned to the DS in the first place. I disagree, Vader being having the exterior of a uber-powerful Force god just makes his fragile interior all the more fascinating when exposed.

Yep.

Originally posted by Syndicate
And to be fair Yoda had the force reserves to augment himself to be capable of such acrobatics and Qui Gon dialed his version of Ataru back to the point where there wasn't much if any acrobatics involved. And Qui-Gon was intended to come across as a lot less physically frail than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Galen's not a villain.

He starts as a villain.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I disagree, Vader being having the exterior of a uber-powerful Force god just makes his fragile interior all the more fascinating when exposed.

No it doesn't. "All who gain power, fear to lose it"

It's brilliantly ironic that Anakin's fear of losing his power (and with it the way to save Padme) leaves him weaker than he was before his fall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Holy shit yes.

Vader should be relatively pathetic. All the "OMG Vader is the coolest and most powerfulest" is a lot of fanboy wank that misses the point.

A rather strange sentiment coming from the guy who's dedicated most of his days to passionately championing the likes of Vitiate and Bane and Nihilus.

The only time you profess any interest at all in villains being portrayed as weak or pathetic or ineffective is when they come from the movie-era lol.

Why is that, I wonder? mmm

The irony is especially thick with regards to Bane. This is a guy whose entire purpose is to be a visionary that creates an order whose each successive member is better than he is. But authorial intent and creative design go out the friggin' window on that note.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it doesn't. "All who gain power, fear to lose it"

It's brilliantly ironic that Anakin's fear of losing his power (and with it the way to save Padme) leaves him weaker than he was before his fall. Huh? Anakin wasn't afraid of losing his power, he was angry and acted rashly because he felt he wasn't powerful enough.

On the contrary, what's brilliantly ironic is that Vader got want he wanted. Power. But lost everything important in the process.

"When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master."

"Only a master of evil, Darth."Originally posted by The_Tempest
The irony is especially thick with regards to Bane. This is a guy whose entire purpose is to be a visionary that creates an order whose each successive member is better than he is. But authorial intent and creative design go out the friggin' window on that note. lmao

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Huh? Anakin wasn't afraid of losing his power, he was angry and acted rashly because he felt he wasn't powerful enough.

On the contrary, what's brilliantly ironic is that Vader got want he wanted. Power. But lost everything important in the process.

"When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master."

"Only a master of evil, Darth."lmao

Anakin wasn't afraid of losing his power? Bruh are you serious. He was afraid at the losing opportunity to gain power so much he betrayed the Jedi Order.

Anakin is constantly afraid of not being strong enough. That very simply correlates to him fearing losing his power, he fears losing the position of basically being able to decide who dies.

I think Vader losing his power, his wife, and his children (from his perspective) makes it far more interesting. When he learns Luke is alive not only does he regain his children, but he through Luke also has the possibility of gaining power greater than any Jedi as he always hoped for.

Vader also never gained the power to manipulate the midi-chlorians, or became more powerful than any Jedi so him being more powerful than ROTS Anakin literally contributes nothing to the story except fanboys like you and I fapping to him trouncing EU characters.

When it comes down to it it makes way more sense for Vader (as GL said) to become like Maul and Dooku, apprentices who for various reasons can never surpass Sidious. A weakened placeholder.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A rather strange sentiment coming from the guy who's dedicated most of his days to passionately championing the likes of Vitiate and Bane and Nihilus.

The only time you profess any interest at all in villains being portrayed as weak or pathetic or ineffective is when they come from the movie-era lol.

The only one of those I'm actually "interested" in (bow chika wow wow) is Nihilus. I enjoyed Vitiate when he was at his most pathetic and petulant and his portrayal in KotFE made him a great villain only by making him relatively vulnerable. When it was just "Vitiate Mo Powah" he was pretty shitty.

Also no, Tarro Blood is a great villain and he's a complete prick and loser. Skavak is another decent villain who's largely ineffective. Sion is pretty pathetic as well and is good. A large part of Kreia's charm is in how bitter and insane she is.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anakin wasn't afraid of losing his power? Bruh are you serious. He was afraid at the losing opportunity to gain power so much he betrayed the Jedi Order.

Anakin is constantly afraid of not being strong enough. That very simply correlates to him fearing losing his power, he fears losing the position of basically being able to decide who dies.

I think Vader losing his power, his wife, and his children (from his perspective) makes it far more interesting. When he learns Luke is alive not only does he regain his children, but he through Luke also has the possibility of gaining power greater than any Jedi as he always hoped for.

Vader also never gained the power to manipulate the midi-chlorians, or became more powerful than any Jedi so him being more powerful than ROTS Anakin literally contributes nothing to the story except fanboys like you and I fapping to him trouncing EU characters.

When it comes down to it it makes way more sense for Vader (as GL said) to become like Maul and Dooku, apprentices who for various reasons can never surpass Sidious. A weakened placeholder. How can he afraid of something power he doesn't have, that doesn't make sense in the least.

But OK, you can have that opinion if you want.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only one of those I'm actually "interested" in (bow chika wow wow) is Nihilus. I enjoyed Vitiate when he was at his most pathetic and petulant and his portrayal in KotFE made him a great villain only by making him relatively vulnerable. When it was just "Vitiate Mo Powah" he was pretty shitty.

Also no, Tarro Blood is a great villain and he's a complete prick and loser. Skavak is another decent villain who's largely ineffective. Sion is pretty pathetic as well and is good. A large part of Kreia's charm is in how bitter and insane she is.

I don't believe you tbh. I've known you for far too long. And you dodged the Bane part.

Just admit it that you the movie-era bad guys to be weak so it makes SWTOR look better.

Dewit.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Maul's physical abilities don't seem to have atrophied (at least not as much as Kenobi's) and he may still have a Force advantage, so I'm going with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't believe you tbh. I've known you for far too long. And you dodged the Bane part.

Just admit it that you the movie-era bad guys to be weak so it makes SWTOR look better.

Dewit.

You don't "believe" my objectively true examples? Interesting. I've been consistent about my disinterest in Vitiates character

I don't bite bait, I lay it. Try harder fool.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Maul's physical abilities don't seem to have atrophied (at least not as much as Kenobi's) and he may still have a Force advantage, so I'm going with him.


Dunno, he did get physically tossed aside by Kanan.

Momentum tho.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Momentum tho.


Embarrassing tho.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Yeah this Vader wank is kind of obscene and kind of contradictory to George's vision all in the name of making some god tier benchmark for the half baked villain that is Kylo Ren.


Don't think it has anything to do with Kylo Ren tbh.

More to do with Disney knowing what they have with Vader. An Iconic villain for all time. They want to big him up and not degrade him at all.


Unlike Maul who they don't seem to mind embarrassing.


Edit-


Also Filoni claims it was Lucas's instructions never to diminish Vader at all, and that he's basically unstoppable:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2016/03/31/star-wars-rebels-dave-filoni-on-ahsokas-fate-mauls-return-and-much-more?abthid=56fcaf8c231d3c2d1300003c


"We’ll have to see. You never know, you never know. The nerd-tacular obsession with Vader vs. Maul. It’s hard to say – I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him."

Funny since it was GL's idea for Galen to beat him in TFU.

That's why Galen is cancer

Gotta love that only certain characters are allowed to do things...

TFU is cancer though, bro.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Funny since it was GL's idea for Galen to beat him in TFU.


Considering GL never actually viewed TFU as Canon...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Considering GL never actually viewed TFU as Canon...

He didn't view anything as canon beside the movies. Your point is?

Besides, GL was more involved in TFU than virtually any other EU material.

His point is: Who gives a shit about TFU; it doesn't matter now, but Rebels does?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He didn't view anything as canon beside the movies. Your point is?

The Clone Wars as well.

Anyway, the notion that a villain can't be physically powerful and personally pathetic doesn't make much sense. Effective villains are formidable, either in terms of strength or intellect or both.

Vader is The Heavy of the OT. He's clearly supposed to be extremely formidable. Neph's examples don't work. Vitiate's petulance didn't make him physically weaker, neither did Kreia's bitterness.

Vader can and should be a self loathing emotional fvckup and still be a guy who kicks tons and tons of ass.

And Lucas contradicted himself with more young boys, even older men, cyborgs who were more than half droid fighting at a higher level than in the OT.

It's stunt technology and CGI.

I just wish Lucas left instructions not to embarrass Maul by anyone under Kenobi level

I mean I understand giving Kenobi that heroic victory over the Maul bros, which had a lot to do his courage, and his unwillingness to give up, plus him being a legendary Jedi e.t.c.

But to a Blind Kanan, and with Ahsoka just saying "Ah Blind Kanan will easily take him, it's all cool.. I can go now..." I can't stand whoever made that decision (probably Filoni inspired by Rey beating Ren).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Lucas contradicted himself with more young boys, even older men, cyborgs who were more than half droid fighting at a higher level than in the OT.

It's stunt technology and CGI.

Lucas was seduced by the voice of Saru...err Christopher Lee and was like 'I gotta get that in Star Wars!'. That's what really happened.

Yeah you're right, but his initial intention was still there that the PT was supposed to be the golden age of dueling way above the OT duelists.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anyway, the notion that a villain can't be physically powerful and personally pathetic doesn't make much sense. Effective villains are formidable, either in terms of strength or intellect or both.

Vader is The Heavy of the OT. He's clearly supposed to be extremely formidable. Neph's examples don't work. Vitiate's petulance didn't make him physically weaker, neither did Kreia's bitterness.

Vader can and should be a self loathing emotional fvckup and still be a guy who kicks tons and tons of ass.

I never said that this couldn't be the case, just that it doesn't match up with how I feel Vader should be represented as. I tire of the Vader worship, he's not a character we should think of as a badass. He remains formidable compared to the shattered remains of the galaxy, but not necessarily outside of that context. Also villains don't need to be either. Like I said, Tarro Blood was a more effective villain than Vitiate was despite being neither strong nor smart (and like a classic disney villain, vaguely effeminate). He was just a jackass who used people. And I ****ing hated him. He was such an absolute prick.

And a key part of the OT was the reveal that his role as The Heavy was a cover for how pathetic and broken he was. Vitiate's petulance came about when he proved weaker than he estimated and faceplanted. It made him feel actually human instead of a comicbook supervillain.

Except that Vader's being a pathetic shell of a man is represented by the fact that he literally is a cripple who got physically mangled and became a shadow of what he could have been.

This discussion is so saucy.

Doesn't matter. Vader's secured his place as second only to Sidious, if that. Get over it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Doesn't matter. Vader's secured his place as second only to Sidious, if that. Get over it.

KEK

Maul's been downgraded. Everyone knows this, Neph.

You just indicated that Vader > Sidious is a possibility, fool.

His best canon feat is defeating Maul and Savage at once.
But Maul is shit that Kanan can beat, and Savage is even worse because Maul can defeat him.
Therefore Sidious' feats are below Vader's.

Stop acting like you don't see the pottery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that this couldn't be the case, just that it doesn't match up with how I feel Vader should be represented as. I tire of the Vader worship, he's not a character we should think of as a badass. He remains formidable compared to the shattered remains of the galaxy, but not necessarily outside of that context. Also villains don't need to be either. Like I said, Tarro Blood was a more effective villain than Vitiate was despite being neither strong nor smart (and like a classic disney villain, vaguely effeminate). He was just a jackass who used people. And I ****ing hated him. He was such an absolute prick.

And a key part of the OT was the reveal that his role as The Heavy was a cover for how pathetic and broken he was. Vitiate's petulance came about when he proved weaker than he estimated and faceplanted. It made him feel actually human instead of a comicbook supervillain.

Except that Vader's being a pathetic shell of a man is represented by the fact that he literally is a cripple who got physically mangled and became a shadow of what he could have been.

Right, but what you feel is driven by your enormous bias to elevate older, less important eras and characters that no one cares about and who never amount to anything in the grand scheme of things. Your fixation with Bane is proof of that and you know it, which is why you refuse to address it. And why the examples you cite are so shallow: Kreia's bitterness didn't make him less formidable, nor did Vitiate's petulance. Your interest in such frailty only relates to movie characters.

From a narrative perspective, Vader serves the story quite well as an extraordinary badass who also happens to be a locus of self loathing and emotional distress. You just want him, and consequently his peers, to be weaker so it makes SWTOR/Bane look better.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

He "indicated" that a long time ago, Neph. Get with the program.

@Temp, tbh that was my reading as well.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
His best canon feat is defeating Maul and Savage at once.
But Maul is shit that Kanan can beat, and Savage is even worse because Maul can defeat him.
Therefore Sidious' feats are below Vader's.

Stop acting like you don't see the pottery.

Then I stand by my earlier statement:

KEK.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, but what you feel is driven by your enormous bias to elevate older, less important eras and characters that no one cares about and who never amount to anything in the grand scheme of things. Your fixation with Bane is proof of that and you know it, which is why you refuse to address it. And why the examples you cite are so shallow: Kreia's bitterness didn't make him less formidable, nor did Vitiate's petulance. Your interest in such frailty only relates to movie characters.

From a narrative perspective, Vader serves the story quite well as an extraordinary badass who also happens to be a locus of self loathing and emotional distress. You just want him, and consequently his peers, to be weaker so it makes SWTOR/Bane look better.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

I think it's more likely that your bias is leading to a hostile reading of anything I say. You're not even responding to anything I say anymore, you're just ad homininum'ingimum'ing me. And I don't have a fixation on Bane. I haven't even read the last book. It's mostly that I was defending my opinion about him that caused me to talk about him alot. My reluctance to get into that topic right now, might possibly have to do with the dozen threads a week designed solely to mock me for said opinions and the widespread harassment I've received from members, including yourself, in the past on the subject. MAAAAAYBEEE~

Also Kreia ain't a man, baby. And I was responding to the "pathetic" portion of your statement when I brought her and Vitiate up. Maybe you should try keeping in mind the things you say in the future.

I disagree. I feel it hurts the narrative when it starts treating Vader as some ultimate badass. I'd prefer it if he were treated as the pathetic bastard he was instead of media constantly glorifying him. Kylo Ren seems like a character not many people have gotten yet.

There's no need to be upset, my son. It's just pretty obvious what your agenda is here. Besides, no one is mocking you about Bane here. It's a legitimate point that you won't address.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Then I stand by my earlier statement:

KEK.

Prove it wrong, Neph.

I got to make an Austin Powers reference. I'm not upset, I'm just naturally this sarcastic.

I've given my thoughts on Bane and a reason why I'm not interested in discussing it in any particular detail. End of, imo.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Prove it wrong, Neph.

"Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith ever." - some source

KEK x2 combo!

"Vader is the strongest Sith and Jedi."-deez nutz

I don't recognise Deez Nutz in an official capacity. I didn't vote for him/her/them?.

Doesn't matter. Deez Nutz is your sovereign ruler, and you'll respect his/her/their? authority.

Says the guy from the colonies. >:[

Deez Nut's is the Queen's king/queen/ruler.

Ben at this moment. It might change though.

Ben held his own against perhaps one of the strongest suited-Vader incarnation. It was stated somewhere, that Vader is in his prime during "Rebels". In his duel with Ahsoka he really hates her and want her to be death (especially after she refuses his offer). Filoni confirmed that in one of his intervievs. But Vader's hatred for Kenobi is on another level. And that hate might made him even stronger the he normally is.

And - despite his age and being out of practice - Kenobi is still a master. He retained most of his skill. His knowledge and awareness might be even superior. He's pshycically rusted and weaker though.
A few days ago, I was nearly sure, that his superior knowledge and awareness made him harder to be catched off-guard. I'm not sure at this moment though.
Why? It's because of Vader. Once again, that guy disappointed me. He's powerful, hateful, he has a lot of agner withing him. His TK skills and overall command of the Force is great. But somehow, he's unable to use it as competently as Sidious or Dooku. Or even Kao Cen Darach. He's basing on brute strenght in nearly every fight. He Force pushed Ahoska once, but she found an opening in his Force-guard as well. He was winning that fight, but I would say that she gave him more trobule then she should.
In compression to him, Sidious, Darach, Dooku were a true artists of using the Force and sword combined.
That leads me to conclusion, that Vader - despite his skill and power in the Force - is, after Mustafar, far more clumsy and inferior fighter. I doubt that he would beat Dooku or Mace or even SoD Maul. And him being suggested - by some shit-source - as the best red blade user is laguhtable.

At this point, I believe that Force-guard depended more on awareness/concentration/balance. Dooku was able to catch Kenobi off-guard because he outmanuvered him in a duel short before and thrown him off-balance. Maul was able to catch Kenobi two times - at first time Kenobi had to split his attention between Maul and Savage, and second time Kenobi could be injured and seemed to be exhausted.
Even Maul was able to find an opening in Sidious' defense when he lowered his guard and gave most of his attention into a lightning's attack.

Maul on the other hand, at this moment seems to be broken and a bit rusty. His determination is as strong as ever though. He still can be superior to Kenobi and closer to Vader, but not in his current state. At this point, he's more like Ahsoka's level (which isn't as impressive like it seems).