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Netflix Frank vs Unworthy Thor

Bloodlusted H2H fight inside a prison yard. Who wins?

Frank.

One of the few times I'll have to go against Thor. I do believe Thor is stronger and definitely has more experience, but Frank just has too many feats, both against fodder and primary fighters. Still will be a close fight though. Giving it to Frank 6/10

Impossible to say. It's based solely on how highly you take Coulson's word that the men Thor beat up were Shields best.

If yes, Frank isn't beating Widow or May level people

If no, sure Frank has a plethora of solid feats.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Impossible to say. It's based solely on how highly you take Coulson's word that the men Thor beat up were Shields best.

If yes, Frank isn't beating Widow or May level people

If no, sure Frank has a plethora of solid feats.

Good point. You've changed my mind. I now no longer know who wins. lol.
Based from what we know of Coulson, I'm pretty sure he doesn't throw around the words "some of my best men" lightly.

Why not people on that level? He showed comparable fighting ability to someone who was able to defeat an immortal mystical uber ninja. To me, Punisher and DD's final fight on episode 11 showed that the two were pretty much equal but, without any further factors, DD's reinforced gloves and armour give him the winning edge.

Problem with the quote from Coulson is it is from a pre-Avengers time. Can we definitively claim that the same level of training of the time would have been adequate to handle some of the more dangerous threats, like Inhumans, Super soldiers etc. they've dealt with since then. You have to take into account that SHIELD has evolved over that time as well, along with its operatives.

Frank with prep and guns held his own with Matt.

Look at the episode "the Cavalry" of AoS vs Frank's battle with the Irish.

May would stomp him out.

And Thor defeated May in H2H? If not, the point is irrelevant. We can't assign random SHIELD agents feats from others just because Coulson said they were his best, back before he even knew about Asgard, the Chitauri etc.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Problem with the quote from Coulson is it is from a pre-Avengers time. Can we definitively claim that the same level of training of the time would have been adequate to handle some of the more dangerous threats, like Inhumans, Super soldiers etc. they've dealt with since then. You have to take into account that SHIELD has evolved over that time as well, along with its operatives.

The time difference between Thor 1, Avengers and AOS isn't that far off. May, Ward and Bobbi would all have been full agents way before Thor 1 even came out. It's not like they were fresh grads from the academy.

So even though the SHIELD academy might have changed training tactics since Avengers, it doesn't really affect Coulson's team that much since they all seem to be experienced agents already.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Impossible to say. It's based solely on how highly you take Coulson's word that the men Thor beat up were Shields best.

If yes, Frank isn't beating Widow or May level people

If no, sure Frank has a plethora of solid feats.

Did Matt hide his skills when him and Fisk met in the prison?

Thor wins, easy. Even depowered He was wrecking people. Keep in mind he's a warrior with thousands of years fighting experience vs a guy that's lived one lifetime (not even). Frank is good, but it's gonna take more than Good to beat a guy as strong as Thor...because Thor is a great fighter too.

Besides, I'm fairly sure that the people behind the MCU had an idea of how formidable they wanted Shield agents to be when Coulson made that statement

Originally posted by FrothByte
The time difference between Thor 1, Avengers and AOS isn't that far off. May, Ward and Bobbi would all have been full agents way before Thor 1 even came out. It's not like they were fresh grads from the academy.

So even though the SHIELD academy might have changed training tactics since Avengers, it doesn't really affect Coulson's team that much since they all seem to be experienced agents already.

Point is, the older that quote gets the less it holds up against actual new screen feats, and you cannot definitively claim that those agents we only see during that one scene are as competent as the current roster on Agents of Shield are shown to be. Not based on a single 5-year-old movie quote.

Also, problem with quotes and reputation is they work for the other side too. We know Nobu was widely renowned among the hidden assassin world of guys like Stick, Elektra etc. as one of the most dangerous guys around. And we know that Stick & Elektra know what they are talking about. And we know that Frank has shown the ability to hold his own in a fight against a guy who can beat Nobu. So if we are going by reputation and comments from characters, guys Frank has been shown comparable to has just as much going for them as the fodder Thor beat. Unless comments only count when Coulson says them.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Point is, the older that quote gets the less it holds up against actual new screen feats, and you cannot definitively claim that those agents we only see during that one scene are as competent as the current roster on Agents of Shield are shown to be. Not based on a single 5-year-old movie quote.

Also, problem with quotes and reputation is they work for the other side too. We know Nobu was widely renowned among the hidden assassin world of guys like Stick, Elektra etc. as one of the most dangerous guys around. And we know that Stick & Elektra know what they are talking about. And we know that Frank has shown the ability to hold his own in a fight against a guy who can beat Nobu. So if we are going by reputation and comments from characters, guys Frank has been shown comparable to has just as much going for them as the fodder Thor beat. Unless comments only count when Coulson says them.

The MCU is a shared universe. We can't simply discount feats from previous movies just because they're "old". And though I don't think the agents Thor beat were necessarily as good as May or Ward, almost all SHIELD agents we've seen have been competent fighters. Even Skye who isn't even a fully trained agent kicks ass. What more agents that Coulson considers some of his best?

And yes, it's perfectly reasonable to use reputation for Daredevil as well and how dangerous Nobu is. Difference is, Daredevil fought Nobu 1 on 1 and had hell of a time beating him. Thor took out those SHIELD agents with impunity. Even if those SHIELD agents were only as good as Agent Triplette for example, that's still an extremely impressive feat.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The MCU is a shared universe. We can't simply discount feats from previous movies just because they're "old". And though I don't think the agents Thor beat were necessarily as good as May or Ward, almost all SHIELD agents we've seen have been competent fighters. Even Skye who isn't even a fully trained agent kicks ass. What more agents that Coulson considers some of his best?

And yes, it's perfectly reasonable to use reputation for Daredevil as well and how dangerous Nobu is. Difference is, Daredevil fought Nobu 1 on 1 and had hell of a time beating him. Thor took out those SHIELD agents with impunity. Even if those SHIELD agents were only as good as Agent Triplette for example, that's still an extremely impressive feat.

Main difference again, and where we differed in the BW/Thor thread, is that I hold actual screen feats above spoken dialogue. Maybe they are as skilled. Keyword is "maybe". Frank actually has screen feats that trump anything any of those agents did, plus the whole rep thing with DD/Nobu. And once Daredevil thought Nobu had killed Elektra, and finally decided to take the kid gloves off for a change, he took Nobu out quite quickly. But I doubt we will agree here, as we didn't last time, even after like 5 pages.

At the end of the day, I think it is very likely that a guy who was described as being notable and elite, even among special forces elite, would more than likely be comparable to some of those guys, just based on pure logic. There isn't really enough evidence either way to suggest that any of them are vastly more skilled (though Thor does have a big XP edge) than the others (and I am talking about Frank, Thor and the fodder, not the main AoS cast). So I am trying to compare their other feats of striking power, damage soak etc. because I think that will provide a better answer.

Fact is we have seen Frank's hits hurt a suited up Daredevil, and we know just how tough he is. We have also seen the brutal kind of damage Frank can just shrug off. Hell, just based on overall toughness, I'd argue Frank has Thor beat. Thor took the van hit, and it stunned him somewhat, and then got dropped by a tazer. Frank took the water tower/roof edge spine fall, and was totally fine and kept fighting. He even kept fighting after being tortured, having a hole drilled in his foot, and being shot. And it took multiple tazers, after getting tranq'd in the neck to drop him. I just have a really tough time seeing depowered Thor putting him down.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Thor wins, easy. Even depowered He was wrecking people. Keep in mind he's a warrior with thousands of years fighting experience vs a guy that's lived one lifetime (not even). Frank is good, but it's gonna take more than Good to beat a guy as strong as Thor...because Thor is a great fighter too.

Frank smashed a dozen convicts in H2H and got the better of Daredevil on one occassion and stalemated him in others. Thor goes down after a good fight.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Main difference again, and where we differed in the BW/Thor thread, is that I hold actual screen feats above spoken dialogue. Maybe they are as skilled. Keyword is "maybe". Frank actually has screen feats that trump anything any of those agents did, plus the whole rep thing with DD/Nobu. And once Daredevil thought Nobu had killed Elektra, and finally decided to take the kid gloves off for a change, he took Nobu out quite quickly. But I doubt we will agree here, as we didn't last time, even after like 5 pages.

At the end of the day, I think it is very likely that a guy who was described as being notable and elite, even among special forces elite, would more than likely be comparable to some of those guys, just based on pure logic. There isn't really enough evidence either way to suggest that any of them are vastly more skilled (though Thor does have a big XP edge) than the others (and I am talking about Frank, Thor and the fodder, not the main AoS cast). So I am trying to compare their other feats of striking power, damage soak etc. because I think that will provide a better answer.

Fact is we have seen Frank's hits hurt a suited up Daredevil, and we know just how tough he is. We have also seen the brutal kind of damage Frank can just shrug off. Hell, just based on overall toughness, I'd argue Frank has Thor beat. Thor took the van hit, and it stunned him somewhat, and then got dropped by a tazer. Frank took the water tower/roof edge spine fall, and was totally fine and kept fighting. He even kept fighting after being tortured, having a hole drilled in his foot, and being shot. And it took multiple tazers, after getting tranq'd in the neck to drop him. I just have a really tough time seeing depowered Thor putting him down.

Guess we'll have to just agree to disagree. You're wrong about me though, I put emphasis on feats just as much as you. In this case, I take into consideration all the feats we've seen from every SHIELD agent and then average them out. It's not just Coulson's word, it's considering that pretty much every SHIELD agent we've seen has been a competent fighter, except when fighting vastly superior foes (like Cap).

Also, the way you interpret Thor taking out those SHIELD agents is that those SHIELD agents must not be that skilled for Thor to take them out as easily (at least that's how I understand your stance). To me, it just shows how much more skilled Thor is. So we both consider feats, we just have a different way of looking at it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Guess we'll have to just agree to disagree. You're wrong about me though, I put emphasis on feats just as much as you. In this case, I take into consideration all the feats we've seen from every SHIELD agent and then average them out. It's not just Coulson's word, it's considering that pretty much every SHIELD agent we've seen has been a competent fighter, except when fighting vastly superior foes (like Cap).

Also, the way you interpret Thor taking out those SHIELD agents is that those SHIELD agents must not be that skilled for Thor to take them out as easily (at least that's how I understand your stance). To me, it just shows how much more skilled Thor is. So we both consider feats, we just have a different way of looking at it.

My stance isn't that they are unskilled. I just don't feel that we can label them as skilled as the guys who, for the most part, have extensive actual onscreen feats, expanded upon by different writers, after the quote was made. But I don't believe the guys Thor fought were just useless goons. Hence why I have acknowledged multiple times that it is still a very good H2H showing for Thor.

But for the sake of this thread, Frank having both the onscreen feats, military reputation, and shown comparable skill to other notable characters, is enough evidence to me to argue that his H2H skill level isn't that far behind Thor here. Consider he is fast and skilled enough to match a guy who can casually catch an arrow fired at the back of his head, and hits hard enough to knock him down with a few blows, despite DD wearing armour.

So I am trying to take the other things into account as well. And I think Frank's overall toughness will see him be the last man standing after a long and extremely brutal fight. I am talking a fight that would make the one Thor had with the big black SHIELD agent look like a brief Sunday afternoon stroll.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Frank smashed a dozen convicts in H2H and got the better of Daredevil on one occassion and stalemated him in others. Thor goes down after a good fight. Just because you're a convict doesn't mean you're a good fighter. The fact that they felt they needed to team up on Frank tells you quite the opposite in fact. They were punks and he Punished them for it.


Thor on the other hand took out a squad of Shield's most highly trained fighters. And he did it with relative ease. Sorry, but Thor wins here. Punisher is awesome, but he can't contend with Thor.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Just because you're a convict doesn't mean you're a good fighter. The fact that they felt they needed to team up on Frank tells you quite the opposite in fact. They were punks and he Punished them for it.


Thor on the other hand took out a squad of Shield's most highly trained fighters. And he did it with relative ease. Sorry, but Thor wins here. Punisher is awesome, but he can't contend with Thor.

Lol, they're prisoners, they weren't looking for a fair fight, they were trying to kill him, of course they would gang up on him. Even if they weren't that good the sheer numbers and tight space worked greatly in their advantage.

Frank took it to Daredevil, a guy who beats the hell out of ninja assassins and dozens of bikers in H2H. Thor is good but not that good.

Let's say Thor and Punusher swap places. Thor takes on those prisoners and Punisher takes on the SHIELD agents. How well do you think they do?

I think they both clear, except Thor beats up the prisoners with fewer injuries than what Frank sustained and that Frank clears the SHIELD agents but with more difficulty than Thor did.

Yeah, but what heppens if you put Thor against DD? I don't think depowered Thor can win that.

I look at it this way. I believe Frank can edge the win, but I also believe that he will need more time to recover from the fight. Because this is a guy who was tranq'd, tazered multiple times, then tortured and beaten, had a hole drilled in his foot, then dug a razor blade out of his own arm, took out a bunch of guys and got shot, and could still push past all of that to help DD take out some of the Irish thugs. So I think he can keep going long enough to take Thor down, but he will probably pass out the moment he finds a safe spot. I mean this guy literally refused to die despite getting shot in the head and flatlining for a bit.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, but what heppens if you put Thor against DD? I don't think depowered Thor can win that.

I actually think Thor would have more trouble with Frank than with DD. DD hits too much like a lightweight to properly take out Thor. Frank at least has a lot more oomph in his hits.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I look at it this way. I believe Frank can edge the win, but I also believe that he will need more time to recover from the fight. Because this is a guy who was tranq'd, tazered multiple times, then tortured and beaten, had a hole drilled in his foot, then dug a razor blade out of his own arm, took out a bunch of guys and got shot, and could still push past all of that to help DD take out some of the Irish thugs. So I think he can keep going long enough to take Thor down, but he will probably pass out the moment he finds a safe spot. I mean this guy literally refused to die despite getting shot in the head and flatlining for a bit.

So basically you're saying Frank's ferocity, grit, stubbornness and plain craziness can edge him a wn? Yeah I can agree to that.

It could go either way. Most likely Thor can pull the majority.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So basically you're saying Frank's ferocity, grit, stubbornness and plain craziness can edge him a wn? Yeah I can agree to that.

More like his insane willpower to just keep on trucking when he should be lying half dead in a hospital bed.

But I disagree that someone who can casually put their fist through a door, and knock a piece out, punches like a "lightweight". By the later episodes, Daredevil was even dropping the majority of the Hand guys with only a few blows each (and yes he also oneshots some), and they were clearly meant to be portrayed as being above average fodder. And he handled the Yakuza security without much hassle, without his suit, during his one outing with Elektra (even oneshots one or two there). So it isn't all dependent on the reinforced alloy gloves. Then there is his final fight with Punisher that shows he can knock Frank on his ass if he really decides to hit hard, and we see just how far he will go when he thinks Elektra is hurt.

Fact is that it being a Netflix R-rated show, they are going to make the fight scenes more gritty and extensive, and the fodder is going to be tougher (because based on feats, the average fodder in DD is tougher than most other shows). So we have to take that into account, and when we further see DD putting his fist through a door like that, this supports my stance IMO.

The only fight I can recall where he really had to lay into a few fodder to put them down was the long fight against the gang of bikers, but this was all still relatively shortly after having a bullet bounce off his skull, and engaging Frank in a series of extremely brutal scuffles, while still suffering the effects of the bullet to the head. Hell, Frank was flatout unconscious by the time Matt even took on the bikers, so it's a safe bet that DD was battered, exhausted and not at a 100%, so him having a bit of issues at that point is hardly a low showing. He had one or two tough Hand fights, but the guys who gave him a tougher fight came solo, so were likely some of the most skilled, and the one had to sneak attack and poison him in his own house to make it a fight, and still lost. And that was when Matt was still trying to get a handle on them hiding from his senses. Usually the biggest tool in his arsenal, which was suddenly rendered virtually useless.

Because, while a lot of people complained after season one, the vast majority I have spoken to myself thought Matt was far more capable in season 2. You are one of a minority of people I have encountered who had an issue with his striking season 2, and literally the only person I have encountered to call him a "lightweight".

Basically, if you are going to call him a "lightweight", by all means show a lightweight knocking around someone as large and strong as Wilson Fisk, or causing visible pain to someone as tough as Frank. Because, based on how the two have been portrayed, someone who hits like a "lightweight" wouldn't even give them a second's pause.

Frank caves his face in

Punisher wrecks him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
More like his insane willpower to just keep on trucking when he should be lying half dead in a hospital bed.

But I disagree that someone who can casually put their fist through a door, and knock a piece out, punches like a "lightweight". By the later episodes, Daredevil was even dropping the majority of the Hand guys with only a few blows each (and yes he also oneshots some), and they were clearly meant to be portrayed as being above average fodder. And he handled the Yakuza security without much hassle, without his suit, during his one outing with Elektra (even oneshots one or two there). So it isn't all dependent on the reinforced alloy gloves. Then there is his final fight with Punisher that shows he can knock Frank on his ass if he really decides to hit hard, and we see just how far he will go when he thinks Elektra is hurt.

Fact is that it being a Netflix R-rated show, they are going to make the fight scenes more gritty and extensive, and the fodder is going to be tougher (because based on feats, the average fodder in DD is tougher than most other shows). So we have to take that into account, and when we further see DD putting his fist through a door like that, this supports my stance IMO.

The only fight I can recall where he really had to lay into a few fodder to put them down was the long fight against the gang of bikers, but this was all still relatively shortly after having a bullet bounce off his skull, and engaging Frank in a series of extremely brutal scuffles, while still suffering the effects of the bullet to the head. Hell, Frank was flatout unconscious by the time Matt even took on the bikers, so it's a safe bet that DD was battered, exhausted and not at a 100%, so him having a bit of issues at that point is hardly a low showing. He had one or two tough Hand fights, but the guys who gave him a tougher fight came solo, so were likely some of the most skilled, and the one had to sneak attack and poison him in his own house to make it a fight, and still lost. And that was when Matt was still trying to get a handle on them hiding from his senses. Usually the biggest tool in his arsenal, which was suddenly rendered virtually useless.

Because, while a lot of people complained after season one, the vast majority I have spoken to myself thought Matt was far more capable in season 2. You are one of a minority of people I have encountered who had an issue with his striking season 2, and literally the only person I have encountered to call him a "lightweight".

Basically, if you are going to call him a "lightweight", by all means show a lightweight knocking around someone as large and strong as Wilson Fisk, or causing visible pain to someone as tough as Frank. Because, based on how the two have been portrayed, someone who hits like a "lightweight" wouldn't even give them a second's pause.

I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. Just want to address the final fight between DD and Punisher. Remember that at that point, Punisher had a drill through his foot, was tortured and beat up, got into a prison fight where he sustained no small amount of injury, got beat up by the guards, got beat up by Kingpin. Plus he wasn't really that into fighting DD, seemed more out of frustration. You can tell by how easily he gave up. So that last fight is not really a good indication of how he matches up to DD.

A better fight would be their first, in which Punisher almost knocked out DD and could have finished the fight if he didn't walk away.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. Just want to address the final fight between DD and Punisher. Remember that at that point, Punisher had a drill through his foot, was tortured and beat up, got into a prison fight where he sustained no small amount of injury, got beat up by the guards, got beat up by Kingpin. Plus he wasn't really that into fighting DD, seemed more out of frustration. You can tell by how easily he gave up. So that last fight is not really a good indication of how he matches up to DD.

A better fight would be their first, in which Punisher almost knocked out DD and could have finished the fight if he didn't walk away.

A couple of things on that. Frank had already been out of jail for a bit and had been tracking those other guys. And this was after spending a bit of time in the actual hospital, recovering from the Irish torture. You can see how some of the bruising on his face had progressed and healed a bit. And he moved freely and without issues. And Matt had been involved in a bunch of fights as well, including an unexpected encounter where Nobu caught him off guard and gave him a hard beating, and getting shot in the shoulder with a highly poisonous arrow. So if Frank had some wear on him, so did Matt. And Frank was the one to attack Matt, with Matt explicitly stating that he didn't want to fight Frank, yet he still soaked up his blows and knocked him down. So there wasn't much difference in their physical condition or level of motivation.

And he knocked Matt down and visibly stunned him, but Matt was not out. We've seen time and time again that Matt can turn the tables quickly when he looks like he is out for the count, like when he got torn to shreds by Nobu, took a massive beating from Fisk and got slammed through a desk, only to take out the one goon when Fisk turned his back, and escape. So Frank had the advantage there, but only moments later Matt had the edge and Frank was forced to pull a gun, so not really the best example either. To me, the whole point of all their encounters was to show that they are so close in overall ability that the result of one of their fights was basically a coin toss.

Fact is, if you want to consider DD a "lightweight", then we have to assume the a big chunk of the criminals and even Hand ninjas have glass jaws and glass bones for Matt to be able to take them out easily. But not only that, that Fisk, Nobu, Stick and Castle suddenly also develop glass jaws for Matt's hits to affect them like they do. But beyond that, also assume that Karen Page, despite being portrayed as highly intelligent, lives in Hell's Kitchen, and has had hitmen sent after her, chose to have some shitty door that any lightweight could literally tear through. Which stinks to me of heaps of PIS.

So I rather choose to take it into the context of it being an R-rated Netflix show, where they have more opportunity to have extensive, violent action scenes they choose to take advantage of, and interpret the showings to be that some fodder is simply tougher on occasion than others. Because we know that not all humans are equal in all areas. Some can just take a hit better than others, and not all movie/tv fodder are equal across the board.

But hey, you are completely entitled to your opinion and your interpretation on things. I am not the show writer and can't claim anything as concrete fact, so all I can do is interpret things to the best of my ability. I just very strongly disagree, and I think that you will find a lot of others do also.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Frank smashed a dozen convicts in H2H and got the better of Daredevil on one occassion and stalemated him in others. Thor goes down after a good fight.

Convicts that took on Punisher Vs Shield Agents that took on a depowered Thor. I wonder who will make that Vs Thread

Originally posted by Igniz
Convicts that took on Punisher Vs Shield Agents that took on a depowered Thor. I wonder who will make that Vs Thread

The better question is Daredevil vs SHIELD agents. I wonder who would win that.

Daredevil

Originally posted by Psychotron
The better question is Daredevil vs SHIELD agents. I wonder who would win that.

Daredevil

True about DD. But those Shield Agents would put up a better fight than a bunch of Convicts. I mean after all, Shield Agents are trained to takedown Untrained Convicts

I seriously want to see some kind of Defenders/AoS crossover at some point, but I guess it would be kind of hard to do. Depending on which way it goes, they'd either have to ramp up the violence for the Agents, or tone it down for the Netflix people. I don't expect Thor or IM or Hulk etc. to ever pitch up, but I would love to see some of the SHIELD guys kick ass side by side with Daredevil, Luke Cage etc.

Originally posted by Igniz
True about DD. But those Shield Agents would put up a better fight than a bunch of Convicts. I mean after all, Shield Agents are trained to takedown Untrained Convicts

Okay, but the convicts weren't Frank's only feat. He fought DD several times, and got the better of him once or twice. Thor's going down.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Okay, but the convicts weren't Frank's only feat. He fought DD several times, and got the better of him once or twice. Thor's going down.

I don't think its that easy to say Punisher will beat depowered Thor based on because Frank took on DD several times. I would probably say depowered Thor might repeat what Frank did in his fight with Daredevil. Especially Agent Phil Coulson worded out that depowered Thor treated his highly trained Shield Agents like minimum waged mall cops.

aj4iN-0pu4M

Frank beats the shit out of Thor. One statement from Coulson and somehow Thor is able to beat someone who actually manhandled Daredevil in straight up fight?

GTFO

Originally posted by Igniz
I don't think its that easy to say Punisher will beat depowered Thor based on because Frank took on DD several times. I would probably say depowered Thor might repeat what Frank did in his fight with Daredevil. Especially Agent Phil Coulson worded out that depowered Thor treated his highly trained Shield Agents like minimum waged mall cops.

aj4iN-0pu4M

No way, DP Thor doesn't have the feats to take on Daredevil in H2H.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Frank beats the shit out of Thor. One statement from Coulson and somehow Thor is able to beat someone who actually manhandled Daredevil in straight up fight?

GTFO Frank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight. He then won every subsequent fight against Frank.

Thor is bigger, stronger, and has thousands of years fighting experience. Unless you give Frank some weapons he's not winning this.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Frank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight. He then won every subsequent fight against Frank.

I counted it as even myself.

Frank got the leg up during their first scuffle. 1 for Frank

Daredevil then got the edge a bit later, forcing Frank to pull a gun. 1 for Matt

Then I give them watertower fight to Frank because, despite Matt sneak attacking him, Frank got the last hit in through that window and them taking the fall, before the concussion started kicking in again for Matt. So I'd say Frank came out looking better there.

That rooftop fight is kind of vague, because both were massively beat up and exhausted, and there were a bunch of elements and distractions, like that thug, the bikers, the gun Frank had, the chain etc. so that one kind of went back and forth the whole time, with things being interrupted by the bikers. So hard to claim a winner there IMO.

And in the last fight, when both were in relatively ok shape, Matt seemed to have the edge again, making it 2 for Matt as well.

Like I mentioned before, to me it seemed that the writers wanted them to look close enough in fighting ability that any encounter could go either way.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Then I give them watertower fight to Frank because, despite Matt sneak attacking him, Frank got the last hit in through that window and them taking the fall, before the concussion started kicking in again for Matt. So I'd say Frank came out looking better there.
Nope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk. Daredevil got up and was smiling. He was going to whoop Frank's ass. The only reason he didn't was because his senses started flipping out again. Then, every fight after DD won. DD won the following rooftop fight, and he had an unloaded gun taped to one hand. He then carried Frank to the elevator after whooping his ass.


Make no mistake, the one and only fight that Frank looked better in any way was their first encounter. And that's only because DD had beat him down to the ground and Frank resorted to guns.

Yeah, except Frank had DD down on the grown helpless before he left him, giving DD a second chance to attack, which is when DD got a bullet to the head for his trouble.

Frank and DD are peers in H2H, maybe a very slight edge to DD. Frank takes Thor with some difficulty.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk. Daredevil got up and was smiling. He was going to whoop Frank's ass. The only reason he didn't was because his senses started flipping out again.

I rechecked, and yeah, Frank was bloody and limping, and Matt was smiling before his senses started f****** about again, but Matt didn't exactly get up too quickly there himself after they dropped through that window, and spat out a mouthful of blood before adopting the previously mentioned smile. Guess it is more of a draw then, as both were still on their feet when DD's senses faded out.

And I still think that rooftop fight had too much going on. Matt initially dropped Frank after Frank shot the thug, but then left him to go check on the guy, then tried to stop Frank again, only to have Punisher beat him back with his gun long enough to get a shot off, before Matt choked him with the chain and KO'd him against the wall. But both were heavily distracted at multiple points during that encounter.

DD might look a bit more skilled at first glance, due to his fighting style, but Frank was every bit as effective IMO. They just went about things in a different way. For example, where DD is likely to use some elaborate takedown, or some hard spinning kick or something, Frank is more likely to bullrush someone, or headbutt them unconscious. Two very different approaches, but both equally effective.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Frank Didn't manhandle Daredevil; Daredevil was caught by surprise the first fight.
WTF are you talking about? DD flat out ambushed Frank, landed more shots on him and then Frank flattened him in just three punches.

It was Frank who was suckershotted.

No, he didn't. Frank floored him again and was winning until he was shot by a sniper and fell nearly 50 feet by an ambush from DD again.

Frank was flat out manhandling him again there.

BS. Frank caves his head in.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Frank takes Thor with some difficulty. Nope. Not even close.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Frank was F***ed up at the end of the second fight; could barely walk.

Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.

Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.

Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying. No, I watched the show. Daredevil was better. He flat out punked Punisher in their last fight too. So much so that he threw a hissy fit.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
No, I watched the show. Daredevil was better. He flat out punked Punisher in their last fight too. So much so that he threw a hissy fit.
He really wasn't. The fight at the boat was too brief and inconclusive.

Here is rundown of every fight they had with video links.

True, but every blow Frank landed seemed to be more damaging. In the first part of the first fight, Frank shrugs off everything DD hits him with, then lands three blows of his own and leaves DD face down in a heap coughing up blood for a solid ten seconds. If Frank had pressed the advantage instead of just walking off, DD would have been in big trouble. This is also in spite of DD opening the fight with a surprise attack.
Quote
The first fight had Frank on his back a couple of times and Matt admitted he had been careless.
In the second part of that first fight (again, after Frank had willingly surrendered a position of great advantage), DD does floor Frank. But we don't know what would have happened if Castle had continued to fight h2h instead of opting to end it immediately with his gun. Matt's admission of carelessness was in regards to not sensing that Castle was packing the firearm rather than the h2h section.
DD definitely lands more hits and comes across as more skilled in h2h in that first fight overall, but to me they come across as in the same ballpark at least. Of the two, Frank is the one who does the most damage and would have had a huge advantage if he had pressed it rather than walking away.
Here's the fight for anyone who hasn't seen it incidentally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0aa8Zz0rwk
Quote
In the second fight, Matt was suffering form an inner-ear problem and was on the verge of beating Frank until he went deaf.
There was no indication that his periods of deafness had any effect on the fight until the very end.
I actually think this fight portrays them very much as peers. Again, Matt opens up with a big surprise attack, which knocks Frank off a fairly sizeable fall. He then opens up with the billy club and lands several big shots with that thing (which was more than capable of a one-shot KO against normal guys throughout the season). Frank then disarms Matt and lands some shots of his own. When the police start opening fire, Frank again seems to have a momentary advantage, with DD down, disarmed and Castle standing over him with DD's own weapon.
They continue to fight fairly evenly as the police snipers fire at them. Even after Castle gets shot, there doesn't seem to be much to separate them IMHO. After the fall through the window, Matt seems in better shape - but then, he is wearing full on body armour and he hadn't just been shot by a police sniper! It's also worth pointing out that Matt's body armour was pretty effective at deflecting shots to the head (see the fight with Fisk in season 1), whereas Castle was taking billy club shots to the dome with no protection at all.
I really don't see much in that fight that suggests a bigger gap than there is between Widow and Hawkeye.
Again, here is the fight for anyone wishing to refresh their memory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgHUGLNnKo
Quote
The third fight had Daredevil knocking him out clean
There's nothing clean about that knock out.
Fight starts with DD dump tackling Punisher and pistol whipping him into a pulp while Castle is more concerned with shooting Grotto and makes no attempt to defend himself.
Second part of the fight starts with DD sucker attacking Castle with a chain to the back. Despite that disadvantage, Castle fights his way back up and knocks DD flat on his back with the butt of his gun. Once again, Frank walks away here from a hugely advantageous position. Matt is flat on his back and may even briefly be out cold. He stays down for well over half a minute of the episode, although this time involves a scene cut so may not be representative. Either way, he's down long enough for Castle to walk away and line up a shot.
Third and final part of the fight starts with DD using a wrench to club Frank over the back of the head while his attention is elsewhere (he loves a sucker shot does our Matt!). He then immediately follows up with a chain attack, presses the advantage and uses the chain to choke Castle out.
None of that screams "clean" win to me at all. The second part of the fight is probably the closest they get to a proper stand-up exchange, and it's Frank who comes out looking better.
Of course, both are in shitty shape before this fight even starts, so that has to be remembered.
Again, here's the scene (including the awesome Ennis dialogue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ
Quote
and their fourth fight ended with Frank giving up.
DD definitely looks better here, no excuses. But the fight was hardly conclusive, and it's unclear how much of Frank's surrender was just down to him suckering DD to set up the shove off the boat a few seconds later.
I can't actually find this scene on youtube, which possibly reflects the fact that it was more of a brief scuffle than a real fight.
Quote
I thought it was pretty clear Daredevil was more skilled. Hawkeye and Widow were more comparable in terms of skill. It seemed like it could have gone the other way just as easily.
In terms of pure fighting technique, sure, DD definitely seems more skilled. But a breakdown of the fights above highlights that Frank wilingly surrendered hugely advantageous positions in two of the three main fights, and seemed to fight very evenly in the second one despite Matt starting with a big sucker shot, using a weapon (not to mention armour), and Frank being shot by a sniper during the fight.
Overall, I think Frank's showings vs DD are more impressive than Hawkeye's vs Widow. Maybe a rematch in Civil War will change that.
Quote
Aside from all that, while we don't know the ins and outs, going by Widow's description of how they met, Hawkeye tracked her down when she was an enemy of SHIELD and had the opportunity to kill her and didn't.
Well I agree that Hawkeye would be a massive favourite in the third scenario here, which seems to be the closest equivalent to the description of that encounter.[/quote

Here is the rundown of every fight they had.



For every 5-6 hits DD landed, Frank seemed to only land one.

True, but every blow Frank landed seemed to be more damaging. In the first part of the first fight, Frank shrugs off everything DD hits him with, then lands three blows of his own and leaves DD face down in a heap coughing up blood for a solid ten seconds. If Frank had pressed the advantage instead of just walking off, DD would have been in big trouble. This is also in spite of DD opening the fight with a surprise attack.



In the second part of that first fight (again, after Frank had willingly surrendered a position of great advantage), DD does floor Frank. But we don't know what would have happened if Castle had continued to fight h2h instead of opting to end it immediately with his gun. Matt's admission of carelessness was in regards to not sensing that Castle was packing the firearm rather than the h2h section.

DD definitely lands more hits and comes across as more skilled in h2h in that first fight overall, but to me they come across as in the same ballpark at least. Of the two, Frank is the one who does the most damage and would have had a huge advantage if he had pressed it rather than walking away.

Here's the fight for anyone who hasn't seen it incidentally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0aa8Zz0rwk



There was no indication that his periods of deafness had any effect on the fight until the very end.

I actually think this fight portrays them very much as peers. Again, Matt opens up with a big surprise attack, which knocks Frank off a fairly sizeable fall. He then opens up with the billy club and lands several big shots with that thing (which was more than capable of a one-shot KO against normal guys throughout the season). Frank then disarms Matt and lands some shots of his own. When the police start opening fire, Frank again seems to have a momentary advantage, with DD down, disarmed and Castle standing over him with DD's own weapon.

They continue to fight fairly evenly as the police snipers fire at them. Even after Castle gets shot, there doesn't seem to be much to separate them IMHO. After the fall through the window, Matt seems in better shape - but then, he is wearing full on body armour and he hadn't just been shot by a police sniper! It's also worth pointing out that Matt's body armour was pretty effective at deflecting shots to the head (see the fight with Fisk in season 1), whereas Castle was taking billy club shots to the dome with no protection at all.

I really don't see much in that fight that suggests a bigger gap than there is between Widow and Hawkeye.

Again, here is the fight for anyone wishing to refresh their memory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgHUGLNnKo



There's nothing clean about that knock out.

Fight starts with DD dump tackling Punisher and pistol whipping him into a pulp while Castle is more concerned with shooting Grotto and makes no attempt to defend himself.

Second part of the fight starts with DD sucker attacking Castle with a chain to the back. Despite that disadvantage, Castle fights his way back up and knocks DD flat on his back with the butt of his gun. Once again, Frank walks away here from a hugely advantageous position. Matt is flat on his back and may even briefly be out cold. He stays down for well over half a minute of the episode, although this time involves a scene cut so may not be representative. Either way, he's down long enough for Castle to walk away and line up a shot.

Third and final part of the fight starts with DD using a wrench to club Frank over the back of the head while his attention is elsewhere (he loves a sucker shot does our Matt!). He then immediately follows up with a chain attack, presses the advantage and uses the chain to choke Castle out.

None of that screams "clean" win to me at all. The second part of the fight is probably the closest they get to a proper stand-up exchange, and it's Frank who comes out looking better.

Of course, both are in shitty shape before this fight even starts, so that has to be remembered.

Again, here's the scene (including the awesome Ennis dialogue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ



DD definitely looks better here, no excuses. But the fight was hardly conclusive, and it's unclear how much of Frank's surrender was just down to him suckering DD to set up the shove off the boat a few seconds later.

I can't actually find this scene on youtube, which possibly reflects the fact that it was more of a brief scuffle than a real fight.



In terms of pure fighting technique, sure, DD definitely seems more skilled. But a breakdown of the fights above highlights that Frank wilingly surrendered hugely advantageous positions in two of the three main fights, and seemed to fight very evenly in the second one despite Matt starting with a big sucker shot, using a weapon (not to mention armour), and Frank being shot by a sniper during the fight.

Overall, I think Frank's showings vs DD are more impressive than Hawkeye's vs Widow. Maybe a rematch in Civil War will change that.



Well I agree that Hawkeye would be a massive favourite in the third scenario here, which seems to be the closest equivalent to the description of that encounter.


Cheers.

Wall of text much? Regardless, Thor wins.

I love John Bernthal's Punisher, but he ain't winning a straight up H2H fight with no weapons.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Wall of text much? Regardless, Thor wins.

I love John Bernthal's Punisher, but he ain't winning a straight up H2H fight with no weapons.

I'm giving a full rundown of each fight as you seem to live in Bizarro world.

BS, Daredevil would smoke Thor in seconds. Thor doesn't has any chance to win this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm giving a full rundown of each fight as you seem to live in Bizarro world.

BS, Daredevil would smoke Thor in seconds. Thor doesn't has any chance to win this. I don't need a rundown from you. I watched the show myself, thanks. Thor is a warrior with thousands of years of training. He displayed this by easily taking down Shield's most trained agents without any weapons of his own. He's bigger, stronger and a more experienced fighter than Frank is.

Could Frank win? Yes, if you give him weapons I could see him winning some. But other than that? Nope.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because he was shot by a sniper. Not because Matt beat him.

Did you watch some Bizarro version of Daredevil? Because this is just flat out lying. Didn't DD handily win their fight on the boat? Like flat out beat the shit out of him a force him to stay down?

The first fight was a tie. Yes, Frank handily won round one. Then DD came back and beat him in round two forcing him to pull a gun.

The second battle was a tie since neither won before Matts senses kicked in. DD looked better, but Frank got shot in the arm, so this one was also a tie.

Their third fight went to DD. You keep saying sucker shot, but Castle was aware of DDs presence. It's his own idiot fault he didn't defend, not Murdocks. Plus, Murdock was the one at a disadvantage, not Castle. The dudes fists were duct taped to a chain and pistol. This gimps the hell out of his normal fighting style.

DD has 2/4 fights, and the other 2 were ties.

Thor is way bigger, and stronger, Hemsworth is 6'3 or 6'4 probably 230lbs, Berthal is probably 5'10 and 175lbs max. Frank is obviously way more brutal, but I dunno, a size disadvantage like that is tough to overcome.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I don't need a rundown from you. I watched the show myself, thanks. Thor is a warrior with thousands of years of training. He displayed this by easily taking down Shield's most trained agents without any weapons of his own. He's bigger, stronger and a more experienced fighter than Frank is.

Could Frank win? Yes, if you give him weapons I could see him winning some. But other than that? Nope.
You're like a broken clock now.

"Thor is this and this and that. I love punisher but he loses. "

That's not how it works. Go watch the show again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You're like a broken clock now.

"Thor is this and this and that. I love punisher but he loses. "

That's not how it works. Go watch the show again. I don't need to watch the show again.

Look, just because you're a major butthurt Superman fanboy; it's okay man. Just cause Batfleck absolutely trashed Superman doesn't mean that you have to come here and take out all your frustration on Thor. He wins, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Didn't DD handily win their fight on the boat? Like flat out beat the shit out of him a force him to stay down?


No, it was a feint from Frank to push Matt out of the boat.

Because Matt again attacked him from behind.

Huh? Frank again had Matt down at one point before he was shot. How's that a tie?

Matt started with a chain to the back of his head and started wailing on him. Frank soaked it all and flattened Matt again who was down for enough time to Frank to set up his gun and then Matt again cheapshotted him with a wrench to the back of his head and choked him out by the chain. Which wouldn't be possible if he hadn't had a chain.

And he wasn't gimped. He fought like 20 thugs right after that.

Frank wasn't there to fight Matt. If it was, he could've killed him several times.

Not sure where you get that.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I don't need to watch the show again.

Look, just because you're a major butthurt Superman fanboy; it's okay man. Just cause Batfleck absolutely trashed Superman doesn't mean that you have to come here and take out all your frustration on Thor. He wins, plain and simple.
Wut?

What kind of troll logic is that?

The sheer fact that people argue so strongly for both DD and Punisher suggests to me that they were pretty equal, so much so that multiple people viewing the same fights had differing opinions.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The sheer fact that people argue so strongly for both DD and Punisher suggests to me that they were pretty equal, so much so that multiple people viewing the same fights had differing opinions.

Indeed. They were quite obviously peers, with slight advantages over each other in certain categories.

And the fight scenes were so amazing. It's the best comic book adaptation EVER IMO. Nothing even comes close.

Frank's scenes were good, some of Matt's and all of Elektra's have too much hollywood fluff.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Indeed. They were quite obviously peers, with slight advantages over each other in certain categories.

Yeah, they are slightly different beasts, but both highly effective, and seemingly virtually an equal match for each other. Frank is more like a brutal, military Krav Maga guy, where as Matt is more like an acrobatic ninja.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And the fight scenes were so amazing. It's the best comic book adaptation EVER IMO. Nothing even comes close.

Yeah, one of the big things I love about this show is that they really put an effort into creating some spectacular fight scenes. In fact, one of my favourite ones was when Matt fought those bikers, with the chain and gun stuck to his hands, just because of how they shot it, with the camera following him as he takes out one after the other. I also loved the Punisher/gang prison fight, just because of the straight-up brutality.

Also, Elektra was the worst thing of season 2 IMO. My first reaction when she was stabbed in the final episode was, "Good, I hope she stays dead for at least one season. Give us Bullseye and more Fisk instead."

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wut?

What kind of troll logic is that? Call it like I see it.

Regardless, Thor ftw.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The sheer fact that people argue so strongly for both DD and Punisher suggests to me that they were pretty equal, so much so that multiple people viewing the same fights had differing opinions. Don't get me wrong, Punisher did well. But it was pretty clear at the end, When DD knew what to expect from Frank he made the fight look pretty sad. At the end, Daredevil was clearly above Frank in H2H.

Well, given everything that has been said (taking both the more extreme and neutral opinions together), I think a fair conclusion to make is that depowered Thor, Frank and Matt appear to be pretty equal overall, and that any match between 2 of the 3 of them would be tough to call.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, given everything that has been said (taking both the more extreme and neutral opinions together), I think a fair conclusion to make is that depowered Thor, Frank and Matt appear to be pretty equal overall, and that any match between 2 of the 3 of them would be tough to call.

Yup. Best call yet.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Not even close.

Feel free to provide Thor feats that equal or surpass Frank taking it to Daredevil, because beating nameless SHIELD agents ain't it.

Um, they were Coulsen's top trained agents. Do you know what Navy SEALS are?

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it was a feint from Frank to push Matt out of the boat.

Because Matt again attacked him from behind.

Huh? Frank again had Matt down at one point before he was shot. How's that a tie?

Matt started with a chain to the back of his head and started wailing on him. Frank soaked it all and flattened Matt again who was down for enough time to Frank to set up his gun and then Matt again cheapshotted him with a wrench to the back of his head and choked him out by the chain. Which wouldn't be possible if he hadn't had a chain.

And he wasn't gimped. He fought like 20 thugs right after that.

Frank wasn't there to fight Matt. If it was, he could've killed him several times.

Not sure where you get that. It was not a feint. Punisher pushed him off after they were already done fighting, and lost before the thugs showed up which was why he pushed him off (because the ship was going to blow). He was in no way trying to trick him. He just beat him down.

Like you said, Matts hits didn't do much. All it did was get Punishers attention and then they fought on equal terms, after which Matt beat him down.

Twenty thugs he could have taken out much easier if he had his normal armored fists and batons. This IS a gimp to his fighting style.

Honestly, it looks like you are trying you best to swing it in Castle favor despite him never actually having flat out won a fight (unlike DD). Everyone else agrees, they are almost on equal terms with DD edging out a bit. Punisher is definitely not the greater of the two.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Um, they were Coulsen's top trained agents. Do you know what Navy SEALS are?

That doesn't mean anything. IRL Navy SEALS who have tried their luck in pro MMA haven't done very well. They're not as good as pure H2H fighters.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Guys who definitely can't take ninja assassins in H2H when outnumbered 4-5 to 1. Your point? Punisher never took on ninja assasins. Also, the breadth and knowledge of the Armed Forces Elite trained units vastly outmatches that of Ninjas. You're obviously not really clear on the kind of training they have to go through.

Anyway, point is, all we have to go on is Thor easily taking down Shield's most highly trained agents whilst being unarmed. Punisher never takes down highly skilled combatants at ANY point during DD season 2 while he's unarmed. Every time Punisher won a fight he used a weapon of some kind. Same applies here.

I mentioned this previously, but the easiest way to do this is simply swap Thor's and Punisher's places. Imagine Thor being in the prison taking out those prisoners. Does he take them out more easily than Frank did?

Imagine Frank trying to infiltrate the SHIELD base. Does he take out the SHIELD agents as easily (or more) as Thor does?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, given everything that has been said (taking both the more extreme and neutral opinions together), I think a fair conclusion to make is that depowered Thor, Frank and Matt appear to be pretty equal overall, and that any match between 2 of the 3 of them would be tough to call.

This

Also dont know if its been mentioned but after Thor beat down "Some of Coulsons best" . Coulson even interrogated Thor trying to find out where he got his training from. Meaning He was impressed and knew that he was highly trained in combat.


Hard to pick a winner.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
It was not a feint. Punisher pushed him off after they were already done fighting, and lost before the thugs showed up which was why he pushed him off (because the ship was going to blow). He was in no way trying to trick him. He just beat him down.


Yes, it was. Frank willingly gave up the fight.

He took far worse attacks in the previous fights and never gave up.

Haha, no. What are you talking about?

Proof of this? It also helped him in choking Frank out. So no, it wasn't a gimp.

He won his very first fight with Daredevil even after Matt ambushed him. WTF are you talking about?

Daredevil is more skilled than Frank but Frank is flat out stronger. It evens out in the end.

Thor doesn't has a prayer of winning here though.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Your point? Punisher never took on ninja assasins. Also, the breadth and knowledge of the Armed Forces Elite trained units vastly outmatches that of Ninjas. You're obviously not really clear on the kind of training they have to go through.

Anyway, point is, all we have to go on is Thor easily taking down Shield's most highly trained agents whilst being unarmed. Punisher never takes down highly skilled combatants at ANY point during DD season 2 while he's unarmed. Every time Punisher won a fight he used a weapon of some kind. Same applies here.

Taking out Daredevil in h2h alone shits on anything Thor did. Beating random shield agents one after one isn't as impressive as you're making out to be.

Ward beat like a dozen shield agents alone. At once.

Thor wins

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it was. Frank willingly gave up the fight.

He took far worse attacks in the previous fights and never gave up.

Haha, no. What are you talking about?

Proof of this? It also helped him in choking Frank out. So no, it wasn't a gimp.

He won his very first fight with Daredevil even after Matt ambushed him. WTF are you talking about?

Daredevil is more skilled than Frank but Frank is flat out stronger. It evens out in the end.

Thor doesn't has a prayer of winning here though. So in other words, your going to cover your ears and scream at the top of your lungs. A+ debating there champ

Ignore facts all you want, but DD>Punisher and Thor>Punisher

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Your point? Punisher never took on ninja assasins. Also, the breadth and knowledge of the Armed Forces Elite trained units vastly outmatches that of Ninjas. You're obviously not really clear on the kind of training they have to go through.

Anyway, point is, all we have to go on is Thor easily taking down Shield's most highly trained agents whilst being unarmed. Punisher never takes down highly skilled combatants at ANY point during DD season 2 while he's unarmed. Every time Punisher won a fight he used a weapon of some kind. Same applies here.

He took on Daredevil who was a ninja basically. And Daredevil was beating multiple ninjas in H2H. You're the one who's unclear on the military. H2H is just one small part of their training, even the elite like the SEALS are mediocre fighters when compared to pro fighters.

Punisher took down Daredevil in their first encounter and no, I'm not talking about when he shot him. Before that he had Daredevil helpless on the ground, but chose to walk away.

Originally posted by Psychotron
He took on Daredevil who was a ninja basically. And Daredevil was beating multiple ninjas in H2H. You're the one who's unclear on the military. H2H is just one small part of their training, even the elite like the SEALS are mediocre fighters when compared to pro fighters.

Punisher took down Daredevil in their first encounter and no, I'm not talking about when he shot him. Before that he had Daredevil helpless on the ground, but chose to walk away. I'm not unclear of the military genius, I was in the Armed forces for 5 years. Also, you can be a great fighter but 90% of REAL fights end on the ground. Fact. Navy seals/Green Berets/ Marine Recons etc are all trained to be killers. They are great at h2h fighting but more importantly, know above all else, how to survive at any cost.


He punched Daredevil and walked off. That would have hardly been the end of it btw. We've seen DD take MUCH worse and turn the tables on tons of occasions. Also, it was made clear that at the end when DD knew what Frank's fighting style was; he trashed him. DD embarrassed Punisher in their last fight. All Punisher could do was get mad and throw a fit.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
I'm not unclear of the military genius, I was in the Armed forces for 5 years. Also, you can be a great fighter but 90% of REAL fights end on the ground. Fact. Navy seals/Green Berets/ Marine Recons etc are all trained to be killers. They are great at h2h fighting but more importantly, know above all else, how to survive at any cost.


No, he punched Daredevil and walked off. That would have hardly been the end of it btw. We've seen DD take MUCH worse and turn the tables on tons of occasions. Also, it was made clear that at the end when DD knew what Frank's fighting style was; he trashed him. DD embarrassed Punisher in their last fight. All Punisher could do was get mad and throw a fit.

Then why do Navy SEALS who go pro end up as mediocre fighters? Soldiers are trained killers, this is true, but they're not 100% focused on H2H, that's just one part of their training, unlike professional fighters, or ficitonal ninjas.

No, it really would have been the end of it. Punisher could have curb stomped him if he wanted, he could have shot him, he could have given him a wedgy if he wanted to. The Punisher was pretty badly injured and emotionally distraught (more so than usual) in their last fight. In their first two fights they were peers, DP Thor can't say the same just because of one feat.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Then why do Navy SEALS who go pro end up as mediocre fighters? Soldiers are trained killers, this is true, but they're not 100% focused on H2H, that's just one part of their training, unlike professional fighters, or ficitonal ninjas.

No, it really would have been the end of it. Punisher could have curb stomped him if he wanted, he could have shot him, he could have given him a wedgy if he wanted to. The Punisher was pretty badly injured and emotionally distraught (more so than usual) in their last fight. In their first two fights they were peers, DP Thor can't say the same just because of one feat. Rhonda rousey was in the military and became one of the best female MMA fighters ever.

Name the supposed Seals that have gone pro. I'm not saying that every Seal is going to just waltz into an mma ring and win a fight. But a Seal in the open vs an mma fighter is going to win 100% of the time.


Also, I hear alot of coulda woulda soulda from you without any proof to back it up. The ONLY Facts we have are what actually happened. In their last fight, it was made clear that DD>Punisher in h2h. You have nothing to stand on after that. Nothing.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Rhonda rousey was in the military and became one of the best female MMA fighters ever.

Name the supposed Seals that have gone pro. I'm not saying that every Seal is going to just waltz into an mma ring and win a fight. But a Seal in the open vs an mma fighter is going to win 100% of the time.


Also, I hear alot of coulda woulda soulda from you without any proof to back it up. The ONLY Facts we have are what actually happened. In their last fight, it was made clear that DD>Punisher in h2h. You have nothing to stand on after that. Nothing.

Why not just say Thor wins and be over it

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Rhonda rousey was in the military and became one of the best female MMA fighters ever.

Name the supposed Seals that have gone pro. I'm not saying that every Seal is going to just waltz into an mma ring and win a fight. But a Seal in the open vs an mma fighter is going to win 100% of the time.


Also, I hear alot of coulda woulda soulda from you without any proof to back it up. The ONLY Facts we have are what actually happened. In their last fight, it was made clear that DD>Punisher in h2h. You have nothing to stand on after that. Nothing.

Lol, Rhonda is one of the absolutely worst fighters ever. She only held her title because the women's division is trash. She was flattened when she fought a competent striker.

Eh, I remember reading about one but I forgot the name. Regardless, there are plenty of fighers with Army/Navy backgrounds. It's really only logical that a guy trains for nothing but H2H is gonna be better than a guy trains for H2H + a bunch of other shit.

The fact is that Punisher got the drop on DD twice in their first encounter, and stalemated him in their second encounter. Even if he did lose the third fight, which I deny, they're still peers.

So who do you think wins? I was basing this off the movie Punisher. Now that there is another one, I will have to wait to see the new guy in action.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Lol, Rhonda is one of the absolutely worst fighters ever. She only held her title because the women's division is trash. She was flattened when she fought a competent striker.

Eh, I remember reading about one but I forgot the name. Regardless, there are plenty of fighers with Army/Navy backgrounds. It's really only logical that a guy trains for nothing but H2H is gonna be better than a guy trains for H2H + a bunch of other shit.

The fact is that Punisher got the drop on DD twice in their first encounter, and stalemated him in their second encounter. Even if he did lose the third fight, which I deny, they're still peers. No, she got beat because she's an idiot who greatly overestimated her skill and underestimated her opponent. I was just using her fame and winning percentage as a fact to shove in your face.

OH, Great proof there. Glad "all these" Seals that go pro are somone you read about. I guess I'll take your word for it right? I've seen SEALS doing their fight training. It's intense. Far more professional that alot of the stuff the shit ninjas in DD pulled.

And Punisher is not peers with DD in H2H. It was proven in their final encounter. DD embarrassed Punisher. Then he tried to help Punisher off the ground and Punisher threw a fit. Again, it was made clear. DD had had enough and learned Punishers' fighting style.

Unarmed, DD>> Punisher.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
No, she got beat because she's an idiot who greatly overestimated her skill and underestimated her opponent. I was just using her fame and winning percentage as a fact to shove in your face.

OH, Great proof there. Glad "all these" Seals that go pro are somone you read about. I guess I'll take your word for it right? I've seen SEALS doing their fight training. It's intense. Far more professional that alot of the stuff the shit ninjas in DD pulled.

And Punisher is not peers with DD in H2H. It was proven in their final encounter. DD embarrassed Punisher. Then he tried to help Punisher off the ground and Punisher threw a fit. Again, it was made clear. DD had had enough and learned Punishers' fighting style.

Unarmed, DD>> Punisher.

So in other words she was trash.

I'll look for them tomorrow. I'll see if I can find anything.

So Punisher wins one, stalemates him the second time, and loses one (ignoring context, of course) and that somehow means DD is >> Punisher? Great math.

Originally posted by Psychotron
So in other words she was trash.

I'll look for them tomorrow. I'll see if I can find anything.

So Punisher wins one, stalemates him the second time, and loses one (ignoring context, of course) and that somehow means DD is >> Punisher? Great math. No, it was build up. DD didn't know what to expect from Punisher in their first fight. It's the only fight he legit won because of that. DD would have won the second fight but the events of Punisher shooting him point blank in the face from the first fight brought his senses back into overload. Punisher could barely walk and Daredevil was fine until his senses went nuts.

Third fight DD had a pistol taped to his hand and still beat Punisher. And their final fight DD embarrassed Punisher.

So, that's 2 wins for DD
1 win for Punisher
and a draw.

That's the math; DD wins.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
No, it was build up. DD didn't know what to expect from Punisher in their first fight. It's the only fight he legit won because of that. DD would have won the second fight but the events of Punisher shooting him point blank in the face from the first fight brought his senses back into overload. Punisher could barely walk and Daredevil was fine until his senses went nuts.

Third fight DD had a pistol taped to his hand and still beat Punisher. And their final fight DD embarrassed Punisher.

So, that's 2 wins for DD
1 win for Punisher
and a draw.

That's the math; DD wins.

First of all, Punisher didn't know DD's style either, so it's completely fair.

Second you can't honestly consider the third episode fight. Punisher wasn't even trying to fight him there, he was more interested in stirring shit up with the bikers.

Third, the Punisher was focused the guy who he thought was Blacksmith, and wasn't really trying to fight DD.

Finally, even if it was 2-1 and one draw would still make them peers with perhaps an edge to DD.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Finally, even if it was 2-1 and one draw would still make them peers with perhaps an edge to DD. Yah, I'm okay with this.