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Time to lay down the law on whose the strongest Togruta.

Both characters are in their primes, battle takes place in the Petranaki Arena. Who wins?

Ti gets stomped pretty badly

Ahsoka is very strong on lightsaber combat, but her Force skill is not impressive.

Ahsoka bisects her.

At least give Shaak her Legends feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
At least give Shaak her Legends feats. The OP doesn't say that she's restricted to just her canon feats.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The OP doesn't say that she's restricted to just her canon feats.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The OP doesn't say that she's restricted to just her canon feats.

Shaak puts up a fight but still ends up losing. Only chance she has is if its on Felucia.

Shaak stomps.

Ahsoka cuts Ti down.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Shaak stomps. Rea- ah wait its you. Never mind.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Rea- ah wait its you. Never mind.

Ti wins this one. Tano has too many flaws in her technique

1) She's too dependant on having two blades. Deprive her of one and she folds.

2) Her fighting style is more suited to battlefield engagements than duelling. Her "stop-start" method makes her predictable and prevents her from getting offensive momentum.

3) Worst of all. Two words: Reverse grip.

Ti wins handily.

Lmfao

Shaak is from a completely different tier than prime Rebels Ahsoka. Ahsoka stomps.

https://img1.etsystatic.com/014/0/6648634/il_570xN.455070587_abh9.jpg

Pictographs are used to communicate with down and autism victims - are you trying to basically offend these forums? Why do you even commit such an act?

Top Ten Reasons Why You Shouldn't Make Fun of People With Autism

1 - It's not their fault they have autism
2 - It's inhumane and rude
3 - They are intelligent, even if others think otherwise
4 - They're human beings, too
5 - They are very nice people
6 - There have been many amazing autistic people in history

Ahsoka assrapes.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Ahsoka assrapes.

goddamn i would definitely pay to watch it

Originally posted by JKBart
Pictographs are used to communicate with down and autism victims - are you trying to basically offend these forums? Why do you even commit such an act?

Top Ten Reasons Why You Shouldn't Make Fun of People With Autism

1 - It's not their fault they have autism
2 - It's inhumane and rude
3 - They are intelligent, even if others think otherwise
4 - They're human beings, too
5 - They are very nice people
6 - There have been many amazing autistic people in history

Thank you.

So Tano gets put on the defensive and forced to retreat, clearly incapable of matching Vader one on one, and now she's stomping Shaak Ti who was by every margin better than Galen Marek? lol Killermovies.

Why did she an hero then if she was better?

And Galen at the beginning was a noob somewhere within Yuon Par/Kit Fisto/Asajj Ventress/Darth Talon range

Originally posted by AncientPower
So Tano gets put on the defensive and forced to retreat, clearly incapable of matching Vader one on one, and now she's stomping Shaak Ti who was by every margin better than Galen Marek? lol Killermovies.

Shaak wasn't superior to Galen. She was on a light side nexus and Galen had fought through an army of force users and she had an entire world at her command aiding her efforts against him and she still lost even going all out. Get your facts straight.

Originally posted by JKBart
Why did she an hero then if she was better?

And Galen at the beginning was a noob somewhere within Yuon Par/Kit Fisto/Asajj Ventress/Darth Talon range

False. Even at the VERY beginning he was a master of lightsaber combat who could throw around TIE's, kill dozens of soldiers with a force push and buckle walls with a gesture.

She didn't, she nearly sliced his skull in half and tagged him twice, he used instinctive telekinesis to stop the blade and was stunned to notice he'd managed to impale her. He remarks on how lucky and close to death he'd been, she was better than him, quite solidly too.

This was the third quarter of the book, not the beginning. Galen Marek had almost perfected his lightsaber skill training with Vader, already defeated Rahm Kota, killed Kazdan Paratus, telekinetically wrecked hundreds of junk droids, trashed AT-STs and was capable of tearing down Kazdan's temple.

He was nothing like a 'noob', infact there is an implication that he'd already achieved much of his power when Vader impaled him; he just wasn't ready yet.

Ti > Marek in his prime as a dark sider before his redemption, which makes her easily one of the strongest on the Jedi High Council. Her performance against Marek is more impressive than Tano's decisive loss against Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So Tano gets put on the defensive and forced to retreat, clearly incapable of matching Vader one on one, and now she's stomping Shaak Ti who was by every margin better than Galen Marek? lol Killermovies.

Shaak Ti was in a desperate battle and died to pre-Prime Galen Marek, struggles with a Single Magnaguard, and runs like a coward from Knighfall Anakin. Ahsoka tough evenly with Maul and gave Vader a decent fight prior and after the destruction of the Malachor temple. Ti wouldn't and can't replicate those feats, the Inquisitors would probably kill her

Originally posted by Syndicate
Shaak wasn't superior to Galen. She was on a light side nexus and Galen had fought through an army of force users and she had an entire world at her command aiding her efforts against him and she still lost even going all out. Get your facts straight.

Lol, how many times must it be proven that the only reason Felucia isn't a living dark side planet is because of Shaak Ti's presence, her command of the planet stopped its corruption. Without her it went straight back to the dark side; she can't amp herself off of her own light side presence.

The irony being even the Inquisitors have comparable skill feats to Shaak Ti lmfao

Originally posted by AncientPower
She didn't, she nearly sliced his skull in half and tagged him twice, he used instinctive telekinesis to stop the blade and was stunned to notice he'd managed to impale her. He remarks on how lucky and close to death he'd been, she was better than him, quite solidly too.

This was the third quarter of the book, not the beginning. Galen Marek had almost perfected his lightsaber skill training with Vader, already defeated Rahm Kota, killed Kazdan Paratus, telekinetically wrecked hundreds of junk droids, trashed AT-STs and was capable of tearing down Kazdan's temple.

He was nothing like a 'noob', infact there is an implication that he'd already achieved much of his power when Vader impaled him; he just wasn't ready yet.

Ti > Marek in his prime as a dark sider before his redemption, which makes her easily one of the strongest on the Jedi High Council. Her performance against Marek is more impressive than Tano's decisive loss against Vader.

She had to put everything she had into offense because she was growing desperate and that offensive failed. She's incapable of pressuring Galen to that point without leaving herself catastrophically open as she did. Granted she was capable of pressing him in lightsaber combat.

This was not the third quarter. It wasn't even half. He defeats her on page 85 of a 360 page novel.

Also he never fought ATAT's that we ( the readers ) are aware of before that point.

Of course Marek wasn't a noob.

Ti < Marek at the time they fought. Btw Marek was still a darksider for some time after Shaak's defeat and goes on to accomplish far more impressive feats. That we can agree on, Shaak's performance is more impressive then Ahsoka's.

Originally posted by carthage
Shaak Ti was in a desperate battle and died to pre-Prime Galen Marek, struggles with a Single Magnaguard, and runs like a coward from Knighfall Anakin. Ahsoka tough evenly with Maul and gave Vader a decent fight prior and after the destruction of the Malachor temple. Ti wouldn't and can't replicate those feats, the Inquisitors would probably kill her

She had him on the ropes the entirety of the battle in the novel and ragdolls him in the comic with kinetite, she was better. Even in the game Marek struggles to beat her Tutaminis with his Force lightning.

She single-handedly held off and destroyed dozens, she didn't 'struggle- eith one magnaguard, she was wrecking them. Misrepresenting feats as usual Carthage?

She ran from the temple after starting the evacuation, because it isn't as if seeking a fight with Vader and the 501st legion would be suicide or anything.

But i'm not about to argue with a troll whose sole purpose is lowballing characters to get reactions out of others.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol, how many times must it be proven that the only reason Felucia isn't a living dark side planet is because of Shaak Ti's presence, her command of the planet stopped its corruption. Without her it went straight back to the dark side; she can't amp herself off of her own light side presence.

It needs to be proven once. Which it hasn't been.

"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance." - The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by carthage
Shaak Ti was in a desperate battle and died to pre-Prime Galen Marek, struggles with a Single Magnaguard, and runs like a coward from Knighfall Anakin. Ahsoka tough evenly with Maul and gave Vader a decent fight prior and after the destruction of the Malachor temple. Ti wouldn't and can't replicate those feats, the Inquisitors would probably kill her

To be fair she struggled with a single magnaguard pre prime and she goes on to face dozens not long after. Also doing as well as she did against Galen by that point is extremely impressive. Btw we don't know the circumstances in which she fled from the temple. Given she had an apprentice ( Maris Brood ) with her on Felucia she likely left to protect her.

An atrophied Maul. Ti could definitely replicate those feats. Fodder Inquisitors would pose no challenge to her.

Originally posted by carthage
The irony being even the Inquisitors have comparable skill feats to Shaak Ti lmfao

Not true at all.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So Tano gets put on the defensive and forced to retreat, clearly incapable of matching Vader one on one, and now she's stomping Shaak Ti who was by every margin better than Galen Marek? lol Killermovies. Are you disputing Ahsoka's victory against Ti, or just advocating Ti doesn't get stomped by her?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Are you disputing Ahsoka's victory against Ti, or just advocating Ti doesn't get stomped by her?

Ngl kind of wondering the same.

Can't be assed to deal with a 10k character limit. Come at me Beni:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8879923#post8879923

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol, how many times must it be proven that the only reason Felucia isn't a living dark side planet is because of Shaak Ti's presence, her command of the planet stopped its corruption. Without her it went straight back to the dark side; she can't amp herself off of her own light side presence. Shaak Ti's presence tipped the balance of the Force on Felucia, affecting a powerful light side vergence on a planet strong in the Force. Shaak Ti could easily have saturated herself with that wellspring, just the native Felucians did. On the other hand, its a fact that the planet was stifling Marek's own use of the dark side, by his own omission.

---------------------------------------------

My opinion on this fight is that it wouldn't be any means a stomp, Shaak Ti is a highly intelligent duelist and one of the greatest swordsmasters in the Order. However in contending with Maul as an equal and holding her own against Darth Vader, Ahsoka has demonstrated at least the same if not a superior level of skill.

I'm inclined to give this to Ahsoka on the basis she has demonstrated a higher level of stamina. Ti has great ability in this regard, but she was exhausted by the Battle of Hypori and her fight against the Magnaguards, both of which resulted in her being more or less destroyed by General Grievous. I also think it can be inferred her brief bout with Marek left her powers rapidly depleted as well, despite having the planet to draw upon, hence the final desperate assault.

Ahsoka on the other hand engaged in a lengthy engagement with Darth Vader (in which she was not overpowered), almost as long as Shaak Ti's fight with the Magnaguards, taking head on strength significantly greater than the meteoric strikes of RotS Anakin - before being subjected to an over a hundred feet or so fall. And still came back with enough fighting force to break Vader's guard to tag him, and keep fighting after that.

And in a contest between two Ataru masters whoever tires first dies essentially.

@Sel, lame, just after I post here.

I'll retool my argument and repost there :maybe:

I mean, please do. I personally can't wait to see you argue why a three minute battle with Vader shows more stamina than fighting for over 24 hours mercilessly against a droid army mmm

Confirmed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Shaak Ti's presence tipped the balance of the Force on Felucia, affecting a powerful light side vergence on a planet strong in the Force. Shaak Ti could easily have saturated herself with that wellspring, just the native Felucians did. On the other hand, its a fact that the planet was stifling Marek's own use of the dark side, by his own omission.

---------------------------------------------

My opinion on this fight is that it wouldn't be any means a stomp, Shaak Ti is a highly intelligent duelist and one of the greatest swordsmasters in the Order. However in contending with Maul as an equal and holding her own against Darth Vader, Ahsoka has demonstrated at least the same if not a superior level of skill.

I'm inclined to give this to Ahsoka on the basis she has demonstrated a higher level of stamina. Ti has great ability in this regard, but she was exhausted by the Battle of Hypori and her fight against the Magnaguards, both of which resulted in her being more or less destroyed by General Grievous. I also think it can be inferred her brief bout with Marek left her powers rapidly depleted as well, despite having the planet to draw upon, hence the final desperate assault.

Ahsoka on the other hand engaged in a lengthy engagement with Darth Vader (in which she was not overpowered), almost as long as Shaak Ti's fight with the Magnaguards, taking head on strength significantly greater than the meteoric strikes of RotS Anakin - before being subjected to an over a hundred feet or so fall. And still came back with enough fighting force to break Vader's guard to tag him, and keep fighting after that.

And in a contest between two Ataru masters whoever tires first dies essentially.

Going to be addressing each section here and I'm going to be trying to do so without bias.

Thank you Beni, thank you for actually acknowledging what I've been trying to tell people for weeks, months and some even years.

You mean Marek? Honestly from a lightsaber standpoint I don't know. While Marek is highly skilled by that point he's not on TFU Vader's level ( that comes at the end of the novel ) and Vader in legends isn't in his prime by that point ( that's by RotJ ). Canon Vader apparently is Vader's prime so if it ends up that canon Vader is as skilled as his legends counterpart ( which honestly it's looking like that's the case ) then it's pretty hard to call.

This is where I disagree. We don't know how long her fight with Marek went on for but given the description of it and how many comic scans were dedicated to it it seemed to have gone on for a decently long period. While she has shown to tire out after around 10 minutes of attempting to get the Chancellor to safety and fighting off magnaguards I don't think Ahsoka would fair any better. I agree that she knew Marek could keep fighting longer then her and that's why she attempted her desperate offensive. But Marek has more stamina then almost anyone given his youth and force reserves.

Wait. Significantly greater then Anakin's strikes? While I agree his cybernetics should bring him to around par with Anakin's augmented strength what makes you think Vader's strength would be superior let alone far greater? I also have to say that I think facing dozens of magnaguards would exhaust someone just as much as facing Vader. Also 100 foot falls are nothing for force users. We've seen Ahsoka fall possibly greater distances and soften her landing with the Force. Also I think you and I can agree that she managed to cut off a part of Vader's mask because his full attention was not on her.

To be fair Shaak has also mastered Makashi.

Ahsoka wins.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Ahsoka wins.

Why?

Originally posted by Selenial
Can't be assed to deal with a 10k character limit. Come at me Beni:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8879923#post8879923 http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1738398/jack-nicholson-stare-o.gif

Originally posted by Syndicate
Why?

I doubt she'd be able to contend with Vader the way Ahsoka did tbh.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I doubt she'd be able to contend with Vader the way Ahsoka did tbh.

Why?

Because she's not even Maul/Kenobi/Ventress level in my book.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Because she's not even Maul/Kenobi/Ventress level in my book.

Why?

Bicuz fvck u

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough.

Glad I convinced you.

Shaak Ti couldn't dream of doing as well against Vader as Ahsoka did. Hell, she'd get stomped by Maul.

Either way.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You mean Marek? Honestly from a lightsaber standpoint I don't know. While Marek is highly skilled by that point he's not on TFU Vader's level ( that comes at the end of the novel ) and Vader in legends isn't in his prime by that point ( that's by RotJ ). Canon Vader apparently is Vader's prime so if it ends up that canon Vader is as skilled as his legends counterpart ( which honestly it's looking like that's the case ) then it's pretty hard to call.Erm, did I say Marek?Meh, if you say so.Most of it was just running and jumping, which for a Jedi wouldn't be very taxing. She was only in combat for a few minutes of that.True.Because he grew more powerful? Well that's the point, Shaak Ti was exhausted whereas Ahsoka had plenty of fight left in her.She didn't cushion the fall though, when it cuts back she's sprawled on the ground.I'm not denying it was circumstantial, but its hardly anything anyone could have accomplished.That is true, but if her duel against Marek is any indication, she favors an energy intensive style.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Erm, did I say Marek?Meh, if you say so.Most of it was just running and jumping, which for a Jedi wouldn't be very taxing. She was only in combat for a few minutes of that.True.Because he grew more powerful? Well that's the point, Shaak Ti was exhausted whereas Ahsoka had plenty of fight left in her.She didn't cushion the fall though, when it cuts back she's sprawled on the ground.I'm not denying it was circumstantial, but its hardly anything anyone could have accomplished.That is true, but if her duel against Marek is any indication, she favors an energy intensive style.

Ah, thought you were still talking about Shaak Ti and got your names mixed up. My bad.

Most of what Ahoka did against Vader was just running and jumping the fact is she's trying to escape with and protect the chancellor while having to deal with Jedi knight level opponents throughout.

Then his original self? He grew far more powerful then the former shell of himself he was after Mustafar not necessarily more then he was Anakin.

She was defeated by Vader as evidenced by his exit from the temple. Shaak Ti was defeated by Grievous after her fight with the magnaguards. Ergo they were both tired out by their respective opponents before being defeated. Granted we don't know how long Vader and Ashoka's fight went on for after the cut away.

Fair enough. It's true that Ahsoka has impressive durability.

True enough though it's definitely a feat a CM level character could replicate.

Since she was his superior in that duel it only makes sense that she would have been the offensive.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1738398/jack-nicholson-stare-o.gif

Yo Joker you got a Swtor subscription? Beni's pussying out because he doesn't think Ahsoka can beat TFU Shaak mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
Yo Joker you got a Swtor subscription? Beni's pussying out because he doesn't think Ahsoka can beat TFU Shaak mmm I don't. Does it cost money or something lol?

Yasss.

Might have to CaV someone then mmm

Jokers on CV

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Jokers on CV

mmm

I'm down if you are, Joker.

Kek, Sel slaughterhousing Beni on Swtor.

Link dat shit. :3

Links on the last page. Dudes too chicken to fight back.

Lmao. Cute.

Sorry, did you say something? All I heard was "BWAAAAARK BWARK BWARKBWARK BWAAAAARK!"

Lmao

Originally posted by Selenial
mmm

I'm down if you are, Joker. CV is incredibly shitty on my computer, honestly, which is why I rarely go on there. I could do it on KMC if you want, but you know, it's KMC so eh...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry, did you say something? All I heard was "BWAAAAARK BWARK BWARKBWARK BWAAAAARK!" I didn't say anything, Neph. I typed.

If your hearing chickens in your head you might want to get that looked into.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Most of what Ahoka did against Vader was just running and jumping the fact is she's trying to escape with and protect the chancellor while having to deal with Jedi knight level opponents throughout.No, most of what Ahsoka did was deflecting and countering his attacks.It's not a matter of debate, he's stated to be more powerful in Lords of the Sith.Huh? BFR'ed =/= defeated. And it lasted 50 seconds after the cut away, 1:40 in total.Perhaps, but the point is it demonstrates she wasn't tired after fight with Vader, Ti was to the point Grievous legit one-shotted.Point is she was clearly wielding primarily Ataru. But granted, Ti has other options.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
. And it lasted 50 seconds after the cut away, 1:40 in total.Perhaps, but the point is it demonstrates she wasn't tired after fight with Vader, Ti was to the point Grievous legit one-shotted.

mmm

Sorry but this is kind of a bullshit argument. She got electrocuted by a staff that completely disabled the council member Eeth Koth like 8 times, force sprinted faster than Palpatine's escape vessel which travelled at speeds eclipsing one hundred miles an hour after fighting a dozen Knight-Level opponents... That's not even including the previous chase scenes in the Battle of Coruscant. It's no surprise that a character portrayed as a match for the greatest of Jedi could beat her in that state...

And that's far more endurance and stamina than barely fending off Vader for two minutes

Which unlike Koth she used tutanimis to absorb.

Not sure how you reached the conclusion she sprinted that fast.

Barely? Lol, she fended him off quite effectively, and then fell at least a hundred feet. And considering a weaker offense left Dooku exhausted in a shorter amount of time, its really not.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which unlike Koth she used tutanimis to absorb.

Not sure how you reached the conclusion she sprinted that fast.

Barely? Lol, she fended him off quite effectively, and then fell at least a hundred feet. And considering a weaker offense left Dooku exhausted in a shorter amount of time, its really not.
Using Tutaminis is still using force reserves, and since it was such a high amount of energy it would be a high amount of force required. For a force used, reserves and stamina are precisely the same thing.

Because she had to catch up with it before Grievous got there. She was delayed significantly by the Magnaguards and still arrived only shortly after Greivous had dispatched her Jedi companions...

She didn't defend against his blows head on as some have before her. She deflected them in the style of a Makashi duelist to not take the brunt of his strike, specifically because she could not deal with his strength head on. Ergo she wasn't going to tire as quickly as others who would face Vader, and could be classified as barely fending off his strikes.

Yes but it would have left her less exhausted than if she'd failed to mitigate the attack

OK, that's fair. Though I have qualms regarding taking that at face value.

Huh? Ahsoka wields an Ataru/Djem So hybrid, what you are reading into the fight it baseless conjecture.

Regardless you realise Dooku used Makashi to deflect Anakin's attacks? He wasn't even able to take Anakin head on. Its an added bonus for Ahsoka that she did.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes but it would have left her less exhausted than if she'd failed to mitigate the attack

OK, that's fair. Though I have qualms regarding taking that at face value.

Huh? Ahsoka wields an Ataru/Djem So hybrid, what you are reading into the fight it baseless conjecture.

Regardless you realise Dooku used Makashi to deflect Anakin's attacks? He wasn't even able to take Anakin head on. Its an added bonus for Ahsoka that she did.

Irrelevant, but thanks I guess?

Has her form been confirmed since rebels? Besides, it's not conjecture, it's simple fact that she was not meeting his attacks head on for the majority of the fight, instead deflecting the momentum away from her.

And why are you comparing Zonakin to Vader The Anakin that fought Dooku on the invisible hand would take Vader as well...

Legends sources state she wields Ataru and Djem So. I'm assuming that's remains the case considering obvious stylistic pointers in Rebels and elsewhere.

And she wasn't, and I don't know how you managed to infer that.

Because Zonakin isn't really a thing, Dooku was getting exhausted before that and LotS states he's stronger than ever before.

That's not being in the zone. That's flowery language for focused. The book is full of that shit. Did Dooku go "into the zone" when he became "the axis for the galaxy?"

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's not being in the zone. That's flowery language for focused. The book is full of that shit. Did Dooku go "into the zone" when he became "the axis for the galaxy?"

Are you retarded? Anakin overwhelmed Dooku in 10 seconds after the little 'you have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them' speech.

Even Yoda was incapable of that in AOTCs and Dark Rendezvous.

So either we accept Anakin as the best duelist in the mythos or accept that was a high end outlier feat.

I personally think that Anakin being>Yoda and Sidious is a ridiculous notion. His other feats suggest that Anakin regularly is roughly on par with Dooku and Windu, in the zone he's god tier.

Dooku doesn't have a massive wellspring of untapped potential to draw on and a history of what happens when he taps into it.

Zonakin is a thing I'm afraid

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you retarded? Anakin overwhelmed Dooku in 10 seconds after the little 'you have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them' speech.

Even Yoda was incapable of that in AOTCs and Dark Rendezvous.

So either we accept Anakin as the best duelist in the mythos or accept that was a high end outlier feat.

I personally think that Anakin being>Yoda and Sidious is a ridiculous notion. His other feats suggest that Anakin regularly is roughly on par with Dooku and Windu, in the zone he's god tier.
Or we accept Anakin is a literal demi-god like the plot keeps telling us and move on with life. We could do that too.

Yeah, that's why he pwned Obi-wan.

Oh wait.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or we accept Anakin is a literal demi-god like the plot keeps telling us and move on with life. We could do that too.

A demi-god that who can't tap in his power at a whim. Anakin can't just focus and demolish Dooku-level opponents like they're Kit Fist vs. Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, that's why he pwned Obi-wan.

Oh wait.
Yeah, after starving himself, not sleeping, and being conflicted. And he was still winning until the very end. You should understand that kind of thing, since that sums up about every war you've ever had with France.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
A demi-god that who can't tap in his power at a whim. Anakin can't just focus and demolish Dooku-level opponents like they're Kit Fist vs. Sidious.
Sure he can. He's been doing well against Dooku for years at his point, and constantly increasing in strength. It's nowhere near as outlandish as you're making it seem.

@Sel, that first excerpt is from when Dooku undermined Anakin's abilities by playing on his fear, before that Dooku is being exhausted by his assault:

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

So its hardly surprising what when he properly taps into the dark side, Dooku is utterly outmatched.

Regardless its irrelevant to the point, Dooku was being exhausted by Anakin well before he called upon his rage. And Vader is stronger than that.

Concerning Ahsoka vs Vader, I'm only seeing a 10 second portion of the fight where she does as you described. For the remainder of what we see she meets his attacks head on. For example:

https://j.gifs.com/wp76r1.gif

And considering that again she is an Ataru/Djem So stylist first and foremost, it stands to reason that was what she was doing for the majority of the half we didn't see.

Not that deflecting his attacks wouldn't have been considerably taxing in itself, it was for Dooku.

In the short term it was, yes, but again that was a focussed Anakin fighting to save Kenobi. As soon as Dooku taunts Anakin, he's incredibly easy to deal with. Conflicted feelings seem to weaken him, yet not once have you acknowledged the fact Vader was obviously incredibly conflicted while facing Ahsoka.

How was Vader incredibly conflicted when facing Ahsoka?

He wasn't, more at 6.

Honestly, the only person he was really close to that he wanted to kill was Obi-Wan, and aside from embarrassing him, he also kind of made him a mega-cripple and left him to burn alive, so that's kind of understandable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He wasn't, more at 6. Can't wait.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah, after starving himself, not sleeping, and being conflicted. And he was still winning until the very end. You should understand that kind of thing, since that sums up about every war you've ever had with France.

But it was like a day, lol. I'm sure a Jedi of Anakin's caliber wasn't impacted by 1 day of no food and sleep.

That quote is quite explicitly explaining his internal conflict though, and how unrefined he may be while fighting her. He was in the exact same mental state while fighting Kenobi, and look how that turned out for him.

Hell, even in the expanded universe he faced that exact problem. Vader's main power spike in the original EU came after he finally confronted the ghost of Padme, and finally accepted what he had become. It brought him to new heights of power, why should it be different this time?

Originally posted by Nephthys
But it was like a day, lol. I'm sure a Jedi of Anakin's caliber wasn't impacted by 1 day of no food and sleep.
Wut? It was like a week.

Nothing in Filoni's quote implies Vader was heavily conflicted when fighting Ahsoka. There was no part in him that was saying "No, I shouldn't do this", he was completely ready to kill Ahsoka and would not have hesitated to do so. I believe in the RotS novel, it goes on about how Anakin couldn't even sense Kenobi and was "between worlds" or some shit. I mean, the mother****er was crying minutes before he confronted Kenobi and just choked out his wife; a completely unstable lunatic. Vader in Rebels is in his prime and solidified in the dark side, and isn't an emotional wreck. Pretty clear differences I'd say.

I was going to say much the same.

He's also learned how to properly command his emotions in service of his power according to LotS:Therefore any pain, hatred or anger Ahsoka caused him would have only fueled his power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, most of what Ahsoka did was deflecting and countering his attacks.It's not a matter of debate, he's stated to be more powerful in Lords of the Sith.Huh? BFR'ed =/= defeated. And it lasted 50 seconds after the cut away, 1:40 in total.Perhaps, but the point is it demonstrates she wasn't tired after fight with Vader, Ti was to the point Grievous legit one-shotted.Point is she was clearly wielding primarily Ataru. But granted, Ti has other options.

... You know I meant to say Shaak Ti.

Quote?

BFR'ed? Vader walked out of the temple, she didn't. She was obviously defeated. Also we don't know how much of that time was Vader limping to the exit. She could have been defeated within 30 seconds and the rest of the time was Vader either standing over her dead body or him walking out of the temple. Given how deep they were inside the temple it wouldn't surprised me if it took 2 minutes to get out of their moving as slowly as Vader was.

I don't think it demonstrated she wasn't tired. I think it demonstrated that she had enough energy to cut off a part of his mask while he was distracted. Though you're correct in that Shaak was more tired after her fight with the magnaguards then Ahsoka was after her fight with Vader. The thing is though I personally don't know if fighting off Vader for the amount of time Ahsoka did and fighting off dozens of magnaguards for the amount of time Shaak did are comparable in terms of energy use. I'd have to think on that tbh though I assume your stances is that they're comparable and likely on the same level given Ahsoka's use of Ataru?

Yep.

Admittedly Freshest has a point. If Anakin isn't going to be conflicted after just having choked out his wife who he thinks brought his best friend to kill him I don't know when he would be.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Quote?VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.Oh, you're referring to that. But no, we don't know that. The temple explodes like 10 seconds after they start fighting, a blast that could easily have killed her.

She certainly wasn't one shotted, as we see Ahsoka holding Vader off as the temple collapses.Tired is the wrong word, I mean exhausted. I'm inclined to believe that Vader is more formidable an opponent than even dozens of maganguards, he certainly would have destroyed them with little difficulty. But Shaak Ti fought somewhat longer.

But lets not ignore the Battle of Hypori, that left Shaak Ti exhausted as well.

My belief is Ahsoka has more stamina that Shaak Ti. And I'm inclined to give her a small skill advantage considering she's fighting evenly with Maul.

Fighting Rebels Maul shouldn't really count as a good thing after that Kanan stomp.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.Oh, you're referring to that. But no, we don't know that. The temple explodes like 10 seconds after they start fighting, a blast that could easily have killed her.

She certainly wasn't one shotted, as we see Ahsoka holding Vader off as the temple collapses.Tired is the wrong word, I mean exhausted. I'm inclined to believe that Vader is more formidable an opponent than even dozens of maganguards, he certainly would have destroyed them with little difficulty. But Shaak Ti fought somewhat longer.

But lets not ignore the Battle of Hypori, that left Shaak Ti exhausted as well.

My belief is Ahsoka has more stamina that Shaak Ti. And I'm inclined to give her a small skill advantage considering she's fighting evenly with Maul.

... You win this round.

Yeah. We were talking about Shaak being defeated by Grievous after her fight with the magnaguards and then Ahsoka's performance against Vader after she was BFR'ed.

Fair enough. Shaak was in a worse state then Ahsoka after her fight with the magnaguards then Ahsoka was after her fight with Vader.

We don't know long Shaak was fighting for on Hypori before that point though. Honestly given all the events Shaak wen through leading up to that point I just don't know if I believe that to be the case. If there is a stamina advantage either way I can't imagine it being large enough to have an impact on the fight.

In regards to skill I'd disagree. Pressuring Marek by Felucia is better then matching an atrophied Maul. Holding her own against Vader is a better skill feat imo and is more comparable to Shaak's. Granted there were circumstances that allowed Shaak to accomplish this.

Originally posted by Syndicate
... You win this round.Precisely.Perhaps, but in a close contest the smallest of margins could make a considerable difference.Maul wasn't atrophied to any significant degree my friend, and while Shaak Ti's performance was impressive, accounting for the effect the nexus would have had on both of them, it hardly seems outside Ahsoka's paygrade.

Nor does Ti really have any comparable showings besides that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Fighting Rebels Maul shouldn't really count as a good thing after that Kanan stomp. Keep trying Neph. Keep trying.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Precisely.Perhaps, but in a close contest the smallest of margins could make a considerable difference.Maul wasn't atrophied to any significant degree my friend, and while Shaak Ti's performance was impressive, accounting for the effect the nexus would have had on both of them, it hardly seems outside Ahsoka's paygrade.

Nor does Ti really have any comparable showings besides that.

*Shrug* I'll have to think about which feat I find more impressive from a stamina standpoint. I'll rewatch both fights and get back to you.

He was described as frail by a cast member... He's decades older. Come on Beni.

Well to be fair Ahsoka doesn't really have anything comparable aside from her fight with Vader. :P I don't think we should be questioning the quantity of their feats at this point.

Essentially in regards to skill it's between pressing Marek on a LS nexus Shaak helped to create vs holding your own against canon Vader. I think they're relatively similar feats tbh.

He's described as past his prime, not frail to my knowledge. And he's only 50 years old and physically in excellent shape. Frankly to a being who can enhance their physical abilities with the Force, age isn't that big a factor, Dooku is eighty for example.

It's reasonable to assume his physical abilities atrophied a little, but not to such a considerable extent that he's beneath the likes of Shaak Ti, and he's certainly better than TPM Maul.

And Marek is not yet at his prime and his powers were stifled by the nexus. In that condition I'm not convinced he's a better opponent than Maul.

He is described as frail iirc. Witwer maybe.

Yep. He says it in Rebels recon. But I don't think that necessarily means he is weaker. After all, two of the most powerful characters (Yoda and Sidious) are both very frail.

P-bJu__WXmY

Trouble is, I don't think Maul improved in the Force to compensate for his physical weakness.

Its fair to say that he's inferior to TCW Maul. But Rebels Maul should still be significantly more powerful than TPM Maul, so he can easily compensate in that regard.

And visually he appears physically fit, so "frail" doesn't seem particularly applicable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But Rebels Maul should still be significantly more powerful than TPM Maul,

Eh. Why? Significantly seems like an exaggeration. I don't even think SoD Maul was "significantly" greater than TPM.

TPM Maul choked out a muggle, pushed Kenobi, shattered a door and threw a boulder.

TCW Maul Force choked Kenobi, KO'ed him with a push, blew away scores of soldiers, brought down a tunnel and manipulated a shuttle.

I'd say significantly greater power is accurate. By TPM he's around Ventress level, by TCW he's approaching Count Dooku. And I see no reason to believe his Force abilities atrophied by Rebels.

Why is this still going on?

Ti is an expert duellist who has blended Forms II and IV to create a hybrid that's excellent for duelling.

Tano's personal style has numerous flaws, especially when it comes to duelling.

So Ti wins. Simple as that.

Can you give us an in depth analysis on why Ahsoka's reverse blade Ataru will fail against Shaak Ti's graceful

Originally posted by carthage
Can you give us an in depth analysis on why Ahsoka's reverse blade Ataru will fail against Shaak Ti's graceful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HGH4tsnyE&index=12&list=LL28h5yZWghLVUh7z8DHRZtg

The relevant part is 5:15 to 15:58.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HGH4tsnyE&index=12&list=LL28h5yZWghLVUh7z8DHRZtg

The relevant part is 5:15 to 15:58.
Ahsoka's reverse grip lets her cover her flanks better when performing acrobatic maneuvers, as well as allowing her to attack from more angles relative to her orientation easier, which all around allows for her to integrate blocks or strikes with her acrobatics. It also lets her guard her legs easier when advancing or throwing a kick, the latter of which she is fond of doing. So it compliments the physical strikes and acrobatics of Ataru very well. Not to mention when Ahsoka uses acrobatics to attack her opponents from several angles, her reverse grip helps her have more offensive coverage. It also allows for better coverage from blasterfire by covering her flanks better, which compliments her application of shien pretty well. Such grips also make it easier for Ahsoka to guard her side should she point one of her shoulders towards her opponent to minimize target area for them and allow her to dodge or evade attacks easier, given her relative lack of defensive moves in her fighting style. By moving her blade coverage more towards her flanks, Ahsoka is also better equipped to take on multiple adversaries, which is one of Ataru's weaknesses. So really Ahsoka's use of reverse grip compliments her style's strengths in various ways as well as compensating for a couple of her style's weaknesses.

Reti pointed out the disadvantages of the reverse grip, which is likely why the grip isn't commonly used and why Anakin discouraged it, but it also has some advantages when paired with the proper fighting styles, and given how well Ahsoka's style works with the reverse grip, it's really more of an extremely well calculated tradeoff that works with her style than a crippling detriment.

Reti arguing the weight of the blades or intertia or wrist or whatever doesn't prove the reverse grip is an absolute detriment, particularly when lightsaber blades have no weight and function gyroscopically, and when Force users have force augmentation that they could use to reenforce their wrist strength and commit their moves to muscle memory.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He's described as past his prime, not frail to my knowledge. And he's only 50 years old and physically in excellent shape. Frankly to a being who can enhance their physical abilities with the Force, age isn't that big a factor, Dooku is eighty for example.

It's reasonable to assume his physical abilities atrophied a little, but not to such a considerable extent that he's beneath the likes of Shaak Ti, and he's certainly better than TPM Maul.

And Marek is not yet at his prime and his powers were stifled by the nexus. In that condition I'm not convinced he's a better opponent than Maul.

Apparently Sam Witwer said frail. It does effect a force user in the sense that they have to draw more heavily on the Force to compensate.

Why not? Shaak Ti by TFU is already comparable if not SoD Maul's equal.

Atrophied Maul or prime Maul?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Apparently Sam Witwer said frail. It does effect a force user in the sense that they have to draw more heavily on the Force to compensate.Witwer said that there must be some truth in what he told Ezra about being frail. And that he was past his prime. So no, he is not physically frail, but it stands to reason his physical abilities have atrophied.

But again, he is visibly in excellent shape and he is only fifty years old. Even at age eighty Dooku's age is stated to not detriment him in the slightest.

In that respect I see no reason to believe they had atrophied to any considerable degree, certainly not enough to put him beneath TPM Maul when he should remain considerably more powerful in the Force. If you disagree, prove it.Nah.Rebels Maul.

"There's truth in Maul being frail. So no, he's not frail."


This guy. XD

You understand English?

Witwer says there is some truth (nice edit there) in Maul being frail, ergo it is not entirely true.

"When he's fooling Ezra, when he's pretending to be this old, frail man, part of that has got to be the truth, about his frailty about what his intentions are towards Ezra, all those things."

Comprende?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4blxhCl0B1qbqg2u.jpg

"When he's fooling Ezra, when he's pretending to be this old, frail man, part of that has got to be the truth, about his frailty about what his intentions are towards Ezra, all those things."

lol

Also, TCW Maul isn't significantly above TPM Maul, who was capable of collapsing barracks with a Force Scream as a teenager.

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4blxhCl0B1qbqg2u.jpg

"When he's fooling Ezra, when he's pretending to be this old, frail man, part of that has got to be the truth, about his frailty about what his intentions are towards Ezra, all those things." https://media.giphy.com/media/sjTEF3Gtw8FOw/giphy.gifOriginally posted by SunRazer
lol

Also, TCW Maul isn't significantly above TPM Maul, who was capable of collapsing barracks with a Force Scream as a teenager. But he never actually did did he? Proof its not hyperbole would be appreciated.

Its probably hyperbole, yeah.

Holy shit you guys are idiots, lol.

It was TPM Maul who survived being cut in half, an injury that surely would have left most other Force users dead, and only grew more powerful from having done so. And if we're quoting Witwer, it was an act of Force Mastery that Sidious - the most powerful Sith ever - hadn't thought possible until performed by Maul. Apparently, Maul recuperating from his abilities is "the seed planted" in Sidious' head that Vader would be able to recover from his Mustafar injuries.

I'd say that alone secures TPM Maul's placement as a powerhouse. And also, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence; just because we haven't seen TPM Maul let loose it doesn't mean his upper limit is moving f*cking bolders lol. The bolder feat in question was done so casually Maul wasn't even paying attention to it. Try practising inference for once.

As for the barracks feat, as I've said before it's something I'm perfectly willing to concede since it's not concrete, but given that; 1. Maul is a powerhouse, 2. Luceno used similar language when he was talking about Sidious bringing down a restaurant in Darth Plagueis and 3. The short story it happened in is called Restraint. The entire theme of that story and others like it regarding Maul is that Maul is being forced to restrain his powers. He can't show anyone he's a Sith because it's not time yet. He's forced to train and perform missions without using the Force in any capacity. Even in Lockdown he opts to not draw on his Force Senses because of Sidious' order. So yeah, given all of that, I don't find it impossible that an extremely p*ssed off Maul could bring a building down.

Originally posted by ILS
Holy shit you guys are idiots, lol.Calm down dear. I was given the impression being cut in half forced Maul to push his powers to new plateaus, causing him to emerge stronger than before, much like it was the case for Krayt and Revan.I don't recall denying Maul to be a powerhouse, only that in his prime he grows markedly Maul stronger. Granted he's got some impressive telekinetic abilities, by ragdolling Kenobi seems quite outside his paygrade by TPM, or keeping up with Sidious for that matter.Comparing him to Plagueis does much to prove the realism of the feat lmao.

Sure, he was pissed. But frankly he's 15 years old, and if that stage he can destroy a building with a Force scream of all things, he's easily on level with prime Maul already.

It's power he had access to by TPM. I wouldn't think being forced to push your limits is an excuse.
It only "seems" outside of his paygrade because you're adopting a feats-focused approach. Kenobi and Anakin pre-AotC were holding massive ships in place. TPM Maul doesn't have any "feats" of TK on that level. Would you have me believe either one of them is more powerful than the guy who taught Darth Sidious something about the Dark Side? It doesn't add up.

All we know is that Maul grew "more powerful". We don't know to what degree but it's not massive. And from what I can tell his surviving Naboo feat is held in greater renown than the typical "lift massive shit" feats people pull off.
Beni, do you know how to read?
Or, and bare with me here; feats aren't everything. If 15 year old Maul is capable of that, a Maul who is actually a Sith Lord and has grown far more powerful is capable of much more. Simple logic.

Where do you place Revan, ILS? Just curious.

In the trash bin.

With Bane and Zannah.

Originally posted by ILS
It's power he had access to by TPM. I wouldn't think being forced to push your limits is an excuse.Isn't being pushed to your limits how you become stronger? I think it is.

And Death Sentence implies that coming back from near death indeed did that.
Right. I conceded that Maul has some impressive telekinetic feats, that's not my point.

What I drew attention to was ragdolling Kenobi, and if you caught my edit, keeping up with Darth Sidious. Kenobi is a powerful Force user, and surely around the upper limit of what Dooku can TK, and if TPM Maul had anything close to that level of ability, it begs the question why he didn't use it against Jinn and Obi-Wan in TPM.

And if memory serves, TPM Maul couldn't even perceive Sidious movements, let alone keep up.Lel I understand the point you made, I'm pointing kind of level that feat is associable with.And yet Vader's Force scream wasn't even that powerful. So maybe not?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And yet Vader's Force scream wasn't even that powerful. So maybe not?
Don't you find this to be sort of horrific logic? Exar Kun and Malgus also had stronger force screams, and Kun's in particular was far stronger. It doesn't actually make him far stronger than Vader, lmfao.

Horrific logic? Minding explaining your own first?

Well, you're chalking up Maul's theoretical force scream to hyperbole based on the fact that he's 15 and it'd be better than Vader's force scream. The only reason you'd logically have a problem with that is if you thought it implied Maul is more powerful than Vader. What I'm saying is that we have other examples, (Malgus, Exar Kun) of force screams more powerful than Vader's. This doesn't necessarily mean they're more powerful than Vader, ergo you shouldn't have a problem with Maul potentially having the capability to down a barracks with a force scream.

Nah. For starters Malgus' Force scream was not notably more powerful than Vader's, it buckled a viewport, caused the crews ears to bleed, and overloaded the fuel cells of some passing fighters. Vader's scream destroyed everything in the room, was felt through the entire building, and rendered a guy fully deaf.

Frankly inclined to say Vader's is more powerful.

Kun's scream created a ripple through the Cosmic Force isn't really applicable to the destructive effects we are discussing.

Anyway, I'm not claiming that the intensity of a Force scream is a particularly accurate way of assessing ability. But as with all powers there are levels of potency, and destroying a frikken building has only been attributed to the likes of Plagueis and Sidious to my knowledge. Go figure.

And by TPM, Maul was in a position to push those limits. I'm not seeing your point. Luke was pushing his limits against Vader in RotJ, should we count that feat as invalid if the same Luke were to go up against a Droideka? Because against the droideka he wouldn't be "pushing his limits"? That's retarded.
Another terrible excuse. There's innumerable situations where Force users "should have" used TK against an opponent they could no doubt dominate with it, but didn't. Take a look at most of Vader's fights, or most fights against non-Force users.

Uh... in Shadow Conspiracy Maul couldn't perceive Sidious, either. Anakin in the RotS novel couldn't perceive him. Not many people can. They can still react to him through their Force-guided senses, usually, but their visual perceptions usually can't keep up.
You really think building-level is reserved for Plagueis-tier beings? Even though we have shit like Rivi-Anu lifting capital ships, Darth Wredd/Jao Assam (guys very far down on the Legacy era totem pole) lifting and throwing Satellite dishes big enough to crush hundreds of Sith? Barsen'thor blasting a humongous durasteel door? All of the shit Galen Marek did? Tott Doneeta holding back a Ryloth heat storm which was destroying an entire town?

If you look hard enough there are ridiculous feats everywhere in Star Wars. It gets to the point where an evaluation by feats becomes kind of redundant. Especially because, as you said, teenage, non-Sith temper tantrum Maul has a better Force Scream than Darth Vader.

All I'm really saying with all of this is that TPM Maul is stupidly underrated because he doesn't have explicit "lift all the big shit" feats.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Witwer said that there must be some truth in what he told Ezra about being frail. And that he was past his prime. So no, he is not physically frail, but it stands to reason his physical abilities have atrophied.

But again, he is visibly in excellent shape and he is only fifty years old. Even at age eighty Dooku's age is stated to not detriment him in the slightest.

In that respect I see no reason to believe they had atrophied to any considerable degree, certainly not enough to put him beneath TPM Maul when he should remain considerably more powerful in the Force. If you disagree, prove it.Nah.Rebels Maul.

... He's confirming that Maul's statement about being frail is for the most part true and given the fact that he's aged by a quite a bit I see that statement as being logical. Glad we could agree that he's atrophied.

He's visibly thinner and less muscled then his TPM or TCW counterpart actually.

I believe he's atrophied at the very least to a moderate degree given statements, logic and his appearance.

Maul as of Rebels has ragdolled the SS. Maul as of TPM was able to collapse a barracks. I don't see why Rebels Maul would be "considerably more powerful."

So from "part of that" being true you've arbitrarily inferred most of it is true. OK.

Comparatively yes, but for his age he is in excellent shape and certainly not at all frail looking.

Any moderate physical atrophying isn't going to be of much detriment to his abilities when it wasn't to Dooku, Yoda, Sidious etc.

Treating Rebels in a vacuum is hardly reasonable when we've no reason to assume he's any less of a Force user than he was in TCW.Originally posted by ILS
All I'm really saying with all of this is that TPM Maul is stupidly underrated because he doesn't have explicit "lift all the big shit" feats. Fair enough. Bar some things above that I would nitpick on, I can in general agree with that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So from "part of that" being true you've arbitrarily inferred most of it is true. OK.

Comparatively yes, but for his age he is in excellent shape and certainly not at all frail looking.

Any moderate physical atrophying isn't going to be of much detriment to his abilities when it wasn't to Dooku, Yoda, Sidious etc.

Treating Rebels in a vacuum is hardly reasonable when we've no reason to assume he's any less of a Force user than he was in TCW.Fair enough. Bar some things above that I would nitpick on, I can in general agree with that.

That and a myriad of other factors I mentioned below.

Dooku, Yoda and Sidious all had vast reserves of the Force to draw on to make up for that and even for Dooku that came back to bite him in the butt when he faced off against the younger and more powerful Anakin. There's nothing to suggest Maul increased in power from TCW meaning his overall combative effectiveness would be lowered.

I agree and I think Maul is likely at the same level he was which IS above TPM Maul in regards to the Force. It's just not to the point that I think it makes up for his TPM incarnations far superior physicals and likely superior skills in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Syndicate
That and a myriad of other factors I mentioned below.Right, as long as you understand that "part of that" could range from most to barely anything.
Yet Maul doesn't? As of TCW he's already approaching Dooku's power and he's a full thirty years younger, he doesn't nearly have to compensate as much.

And yes it did, hence why I said it wasn't much of a detriment, being exhausted by one of the greatest Djem So stylists ever hardly refutes that.I never suggested that. I'd infer Rebels Maul is inferior to TCW Maul but above TPM Maul.

He's certainly not getting beaten by Jinn or Koon as you've claimed."Far superior" is pushing it when he's again in excellent shape for his age.

And why would he have superior skills in lightsaber combat? If anything Rebels Maul is better by virtue of experience.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Ti wins this one. Tano has too many flaws in her technique

1) She's too dependant on having two blades. Deprive her of one and she folds.

2) Her fighting style is more suited to battlefield engagements than duelling. Her "stop-start" method makes her predictable and prevents her from getting offensive momentum.

3) Worst of all. Two words: Reverse grip.

Ti wins handily.

You've watched Reti4's video on her haven't you? Probably one of his best breakdowns.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And why would he have superior skills in lightsaber combat? If anything Rebels Maul is better by virtue of experience.

More likely he's weaker through his skills atrophying over time with ill-use, his reflexes not being as sharp and his will having been crushed by repeated failure and defeat.

Like they atrophied after 10 years of crazed hermitage? I doubt it.

Will being crushed by repeated failure and defeat? That's just conjecture.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
and if TPM Maul had anything close to that level of ability, it begs the question why he didn't use it against Jinn and Obi-Wan in TPM.

Because he preferred to beat his enemies through his fighting skills. Just because you possess a power doesn't mean you HAVE to use it if you choose not to.

It's like Megatron in Transformers: The Move. He COULD have kept his distance and just kept blasting away until Prime was dead, but instead he chose to walk up to him and gloat, allowing Prime to land the finishing blow.

Why? Same reason as Maul. Hubris.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
You've watched Reti4's video on her haven't you?

I have.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Probably one of his best breakdowns.

Agreed. It was awesome!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Like they atrophied after 10 years of crazed hermitage? I doubt it.

Will being crushed by repeated failure and defeat? That's just conjecture.

I think the fact that Maul who is one of the greatest martial artists of the era got his punch caught and casually redirected by Kanan is enough to say that he's not in his prime anymore. In fact he's likely far from it.

The only reason that happened was because the Force was controlling Kanan's actions, as per FPJ.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The only reason that happened was because the Force was controlling Kanan's actions, as per FPJ.

That answers why Kanan was able to react to it, but it doesn't answer why Kanan was able to overpower and toss Maul like a cheap whore.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That answers why Kanan was able to react to it, but it doesn't answer why Kanan was able to overpower and toss Maul like a cheap whore. Momentum, numb nuts. Also, "Force Explosion". It wasn't Kanan, it was literally the Force vs Maul.

His skills atrophy yet he downs the Fifth brother with a single kick and his presence as the Shadow caused the Inquisitors to flee when they were previously dueling Kanan and Ahsoka for a longer duration of time than we he intervened- puhleaze-

He hasn't become a bald weak shell of a man like Darth Bane