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No powers or costumes, just skill, endurance, damage soak, speed and strength.

What about the use of chi?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What about the use of chi?

No Chi

Pretty even, then... but I think Bruce would take him in the end.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pretty even, then... but I think Bruce would take him in the end.

Interesting so, without exotic abilities as a baseline human, you consider Bruce the greatest DC/Marvel martial artist. Ignore Karate Kid as super Karate is a super power really.

Originally posted by Pretentious
(...) you consider Bruce the greatest DC/Marvel martial artist.

I never said that

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I never said that

Who else is a baseline human in Marvel and DC and you see beating Danny hand to hand with no gimmicks?

Shang-Chi, for example.

And from DC, I dunno... Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger.

Constantine Drakon....was there ever an actual explanation for his feats?

Not that I know. And I asked some Drakon fans here.

Anyway, his inhuman speed counts as a gimmick, if you ask me...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shang-Chi, for example.

And from DC, I dunno... Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger.

You think Shang is better? Surely The Cat is better than Shang?

Originally posted by Pretentious
You think Shang is better? Surely The Cat is better than Shang?

The Cat is Shang's equal, if anything. And has less showings.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Not that I know. And I asked some Drakon fans here.

Anyway, his inhuman speed counts as a gimmick, if you ask me...

I thought by gimmick, he meant like Midnighters PC.

Frank is another one I'd give good odds to against IF. Skill, Danny of course has him beat, but that damage soak....

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The Cat is Shang's equal, if anything. And has less showings.

The first time they fought coming in cold, The Cat bested him soundly and the second time he had the upper hand.

@Saint

Frank is also strong and fast --- stronger than Black Widow (post-Red Room SSS reveal) and fast enough to get props from Wolverine.

Not to mention he avoided gunfire from Hood's group of enhanced goons at near point blank, when they tricked him into believing they're cops and he surrendered...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought by gimmick, he meant like Midnighters PC.

Frank is another one I'd give good odds to against IF. Skill, Danny of course has him beat, but that damage soak....

I mean anything inhuman or enhanced. Frank, I think would put up a good fight but remember when not using the Iron Fist Danny beat Sabretooth who had cut him to ribbons. Danny has soak too.

Early Sabretooth.

Wolverine, without his healing factor, has beaten current Creed with his fists alone...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Early Sabretooth.

Wolverine, without his healing factor, has beaten current Creed with his fists alone...

Wolverine has beaten Shang Chi with his fists alone.

Originally posted by Pretentious
I mean anything inhuman or enhanced. Frank, I think would put up a good fight but remember when not using the Iron Fist Danny beat Sabretooth who had cut him to ribbons. Danny has soak too.

Then Drakon, and Frank would both gibe good fights. Drakon could well win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then Drakon, and Frank would both gibe good fights. Drakon could well win.

I haven't read much with Drakon in. Tell me more, but we agree Frank is in with a shot.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
@Saint

Frank is also strong and fast --- stronger than Black Widow (post-Red Room SSS reveal) and fast enough to get props from Wolverine.

Not to mention he avoided gunfire from Hood's group of enhanced goons at near point blank, when they tricked him into believing they're cops and he surrendered... W/o powers I'd give Frank odds to beat any MA.

Except against IF who oneshot kills him.

Originally posted by Mindset
W/o powers I'd give Frank odds to beat any MA.

Except against IF who oneshot kills him.

pretty even , but bruce wins in the end

Originally posted by Pretentious
Wolverine has beaten Shang Chi with his fists alone.

Technically, he held him at clawpoint at the end. But yeah, he dominated Shang in their first fight Marvel has written. Despite getting cheapshotted with a kick.

Wolverine has beaten Iron Fist without the use of his claws, too. In a sparring, but still.

And "no fist".

Which could also mean "no amping" in general, including speed.

But we also have Shang's sparring match with Logan, so i'd say it evens out to "depends who's writing".

Originally posted by cdtm
And "no fist".

Which could also mean "no amping" in general, including speed.

Reaching level: expert.

You're gonna reach Moon like Goku did with his magical stick, bro.

Originally posted by cdtm
But we also have Shang's sparring match with Logan, so i'd say it evens out to "depends who's writing".

Shang looked nice for sure in W:FC - but Wolverine never attacked him.

It's simply not the same.

Btw, I've mentioned it before, in Foreign Cinema, but my stance on "bullet time feats" has softened..

Mainly, because strict CBR rules lead to conclusions like Storm Shadow blitzing the hell out of Snake Eyes due to being the only one who has BT feats, even though their entire history says they're roughly equals, or SE has a slight advantage.

BT feats are good because they're measurable,, but I also think "writer's intent" should weigh in..

Originally posted by Pretentious
Wolverine has beaten Shang Chi with his fists alone.

Danny's kind of key here.

Disregarding all "practice/training matches", when his Iron Fist was on the fritz, he did ok against a serious Logan.

Maybe Wolverine beats Shang, maybe not, but he shouldn't have taken him down "that" easy, without a fight.

Delete

No powers for either? Daniel

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
No powers for either? Daniel

Agreed.

Unless it's the Iron Fist from New Warrior's. He couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.. (He couldn't even score a cheap shot. Misty Knight and Luke Cage both hit Junzo, and he was looking right at them.)

Originally posted by Pretentious
I haven't read much with Drakon in. Tell me more, but we agree Frank is in with a shot.

His travel speed:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111111238/3342761-drakon06.jpg

Faster than Conor Hawke, who at the time was one of the premier MAs in DC:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111111238/3342781-drakon09.jpg

Reflex speeds - catching all the arrows:
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111111238/3342779-drakon11.jpg

And again, from TWO Arrows:
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111111238/3342868-dra04.jpg
http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111111238/3342867-dra05.jpg

And AGAIN, note too him catching an arrow with two other arrows:
http://i.imgur.com/CbBtaIX.png

Originally posted by Pretentious
No powers or costumes, just skill, endurance, damage soak, speed and strength.

But enhanced speed, strength, damage soak, and endurance are all part of IF's powers. The guy walks away from explosions unharmed, what exactly is Batman going to do?

Originally posted by cdtm
Btw, I've mentioned it before, in Foreign Cinema, but my stance on "bullet time feats" has softened..

Mainly, because strict CBR rules lead to conclusions like Storm Shadow blitzing the hell out of Snake Eyes due to being the only one who has BT feats, even though their entire history says they're roughly equals, or SE has a slight advantage.

BT feats are good because they're measurable,, but I also think "writer's intent" should weigh in.. wait a minute. Stormshadow is not the only one with bullet time feats. Snake eyes has outright deflected and dodged automatic gunfire.

Originally posted by Surtur
But enhanced speed, strength, damage soak, and endurance are all part of IF's powers. The guy walks away from explosions unharmed, what exactly is Batman going to do?

Walk away.

He took a surprise attack, without his suit, whilst wounded, from a bloodlusted WW who had the God of War amp at the time.....

http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/99065/4149057-batman+%282011-%29+035-008.jpg

Okay how the f*ck is the guy not paralyzed from that? Holy shit and people say Superman is hard to relate to because he's so powerful.

Apparently, Batman's face is harder than concrete, and can survive being smashed through it by the God of War, lol.

I mean Wonder Woman just tried to murder Batmans face.

Oh, and then Bruce survives being dropped from a good height up (still injured, mind you) and trying to talk the same bloodlusted WW down...

http://cdn3.denofgeek.us/sites/denofgeekus/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/batman35_1.jpg

As one does.

DC's 'peak human', apparently.

At this point they might as well just say he got bitten by a radioactive bat.

true, but regardless, batman takes this.

Originally posted by deathslash
wait a minute. Stormshadow is not the only one with bullet time feats. Snake eyes has outright deflected and dodged automatic gunfire.

Haven't kept up post IDW. As of World War 3, Storm Shadow was the one deflecting automatic fire Elektra style, and I don't believe either has much before that, nor in Marvel.

But If IDW's changed things, great.

None of them can have "no Chi" as the Chi is the Life Force but Danny can be restricted in not using Shou Lao's Chi.

In that case it would be fair to restrict Batman to use his gear.