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DE Sidious and Valkorion run a short Gauntlet. With full rest in between, how far do they get?

1: Yoda
2. Revan, Arcann, and Vaylin
3. Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun
4. Luke Skywalker (FOTJ) and Darth Krayt (Composite)
5. Zonama Sekot
6. The Daughter

Boss: Tilotny

Fights take place in the Eternal Throne Room.

Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Clear

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Clear




Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1: Yoda


Win handily given 2 vs 1 odds.



Either likely solos, depending on SOR Revan's power.



Either probably solos.



They stop here. FOTJ Luke can apparently turn on oneness at will, and Krayt is strong enough to at least contend with either of them.



Both of these are entities who are implied to be >>>>> Luke.

Darth Krayt does not holds a candle to these guys.

And nobody is capable of defeating the Strike Team of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion! Nobody.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Krayt does not holds a candle to these guys.


His performance against Abeloth and huge power boost post-revival suggest otherwise. I'd put him > Vader IMHO, although I may have overstated it; he's likely still far below Wankatine.

Either way, FotJ Luke can solo this. He has this Force light ability that he seems to be able to activate at will, to a sufficient extent that he can survive protracted confrontations with bodies of Abeloth.



This obviously isn't literally true. The Daughter can canonically f*ck up the entire universe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His performance against Abeloth and huge power boost post-revival suggest otherwise. I'd put him > Vader IMHO, although I may have overstated it; he's likely still far below Wankatine.
His performance against Abeloth implies squat when he had Luke Skywalker on his side. Both were doing the hard work.

Yes, I put Darth Krayt above Darth Vader. However, this doesn't puts him in the ballpark of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion. Not even close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Either way, FotJ Luke can solo this. He has this Force light ability that he seems to be able to activate at will, to a sufficient extent that he can survive protracted confrontations with bodies of Abeloth.
Joke of the century.

Luke Skywalker cannot defeat Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion together! Don't be naive.

Luke Skywalker defeated an avatar of Abeloth in a specific setting. He cannot do it in each setting.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This obviously isn't literally true. The Daughter can canonically f*ck up the entire universe.
Based on?

George Lucas stated that Anakin Skywalker could become twice as powerful as Palpatine in canon. At this level, he would rival the Father in power.

Daughter << Father

Palpatine (DE) >> Palpatine (OT)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His performance against Abeloth implies squat when he had Luke Skywalker on his side. Both were doing the hard work.

Yes, and Krayt was strong enough to contribute noticeably, and it wasn't even suggested that his was inferior. He was strong enough to Force drain both Luke and Abeloth.



It makes him powerful enough to distract them.



He contends with focused avatars of Abeloth on multiple occasions, which is really all that I need to demonstrate. Abeloth has melted cities by getting angry and performed a variety of feats that put her solidly above Sidious/Valkorian.

Valkorian probably dies via speedblitz in the early stages of the duel, since his entire gig is to rely on a massive Force differential in his favor, which doesn't apply here.



That's literally a statement. It's why the Father had to put her and the son on Mortis, a pocket universe.



He had twice the potential of Palpatine. What makes you think Palpatine increased his potential?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, and Krayt was strong enough to contribute noticeably, and it wasn't even suggested that his was inferior. He was strong enough to Force drain both Luke and Abeloth.
Darth Krayt targeted only Abeloth with his Force Drain powers. He could not afford to weaken Luke Skywalker under such a dire circumstances.

B/W Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion are also masters of Force Drain powers; Valkorion even more-so then the others.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It makes him powerful enough to distract them.
Valkorion can attack and affect Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt (simultaneously) with his powers meanwhile Palpatine takes advantage.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He contends with focused avatars of Abeloth on multiple occasions, which is really all that I need to demonstrate. Abeloth has melted cities by getting angry and performed a variety of feats that put her solidly above Sidious/Valkorian.
You sure about this?

Abeloth humiliated Luke in the Jedi Temple in a strictly phase of the confrontation. Luckily for him, his allies distracted Abeloth.

You need to read this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624023&pagenumber=1

And this one: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

Valkorion have slaughtered entire Councils, downed scores of Starships, telepathically controlled billions of individuals, and is a well-known world-killer. His inferiors have destroyed entire cities and towns.

You cannot win a feats based argument in this case.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorian probably dies via speedblitz in the early stages of the duel, since his entire gig is to rely on a massive Force differential in his favor, which doesn't apply here.


You know squat about Valkorion, it seems. Valkorion can react in split-second moments and have never been blitzed in a confrontation. Some of his inferiors have excellent speed feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's literally a statement. It's why the Father had to put her and the son on Mortis, a pocket universe.
It's a claim of the Father. He attempted to manipulate Anakin Skywalker to do his bidding but the Jedi saw through his ruse.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He had twice the potential of Palpatine. What makes you think Palpatine increased his potential?
You will see.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Krayt targeted only Abeloth with his Force Drain. He could not afford to weaken Luke Skywalker under such a dire circumstances.


No, he targeted both, and how does this refute what I was saying?



Yes, I know...I was trying to establish Krayt's usefulness. He can probably give Valkorian a fight, although I'm not sure if he can last long against Palpatine. But Luke can take care of this either way.



When has he ever successfully done this? The best applicable AoE we see out of Valkorian is overwhelming (with prep, on a nexus) a Jedi strike team with no members remotely on Luke or Krayt's level. He can kill a distracted Darth Marr, for example, but he does it individually.



I never said Luke was as powerful as Abeloth, I said that he could contend with concentrated versions of her avatar, which is far beyond anything that Valkorian or Palpatine have done.



With some level of prep, on a nexus, off-screen, using an undisclosed ability he never replicates in any context that could be scrutinized, even when it would have benefited him to do so? Obviously he would use it here.



So what? Pre-NJO Luke can telekinetically destroy Vader's fortress. Heck, even before DE he muses about being able to tear the hull off capital ships. This isn't particularly impressive.



How is this applicable in a two v two confrontation? Luke resisted the TP of UnuThul, who essentially mind-f*cked half of Jedi order, let alone unwitting and non-Force sensitive populations.



He's never actually done this in combat.



Actually, I can. Valkorian has never done anything to give him the raw combative prowess of Luke Skywalker, whether or not he can perform esoteric rituals or not. Your examples are hardly convincing.

TK: Manipulating dorvin bassals (which have pulled moons out of orbit), destroying Vader's fortress, rooting himself so that a supermassive black hole cannot move him, pinning Caedus to his chair. Vitiate's best feat is destroying a temple (on a nexus).

TP: Luke resisted the efforts of UnuThul and Abeloth, so it's implausible to claim that Valkorian can dominate him. His best domination feats are of wide-non-Force sensitive populations; Palpatine could do that too, and couldn't overpower Luke. That he can mind-screw vastly weaker characters (.ie mando-wars Revan/Malak, pre-prime HoT, Tol Braga) means nothing.

Speed: Pre-DE Luke can run long distances at > 60 kph, DE Luke can already move faster than Leia can see, NJO Luke looks like he's fighting with 20-30 lightsabers. And you say Vitiate can't be blitzed...because weaklings haven't managed to do it yet?

Lightsaber prowess: obviously in Luke's favor. Valkorian can block some lightsaber strikes, cool; Luke can cut through vong-resistant armor, and has the shatterpoint ability. He just overwhelms Valkorian's defenses up close.

Tactical acumen: let's be honest here, Valkorian whenever he cannot just overpower his enemies outright is a piss-poor fighter - he gets disarmed by a saber throw from Meetra that could have killed him. While on a nexus, of course.

Face it, Valkorian is dead as soon as he is engaged in close combat, so his only shot is to take out Luke from a distance in the fraction of a second he'll have. He has two ways to do this: TK and lightning. I've already explained how TK won't work, unless if Vitiate > black hole. His best lightning feats are overwhelming characters far weaker than Luke. Even early-DE Luke can absorb AT-AT laser cannons.



What is this supposed to mean? I can react in "split-second" moments. Valkorian's reflexes are nowhere near as impressive as those of Luke. Luke has taken on entire Vong armies in melee; when has Valkorian ever demonstrated the quick-draw to lightning him before he closes the distance?



And FotJ Luke has never lost to an old emperor before, so I guess it can never happen, right? Lol.



His inferiors actually have experience engaging in melee combat. Valkorian can block the slow-ass strikes of his son designed to stall him, sure. He hasn't done anything more.



This is an incredibly unconvincing reply and you probably recognize this. You think that the Father, canonically the most powerful Force user in the mythos, was just lying for no reason, or mistaken, and just went through the efforts to exile his own children in a pocket dimension for the heck of it?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DE Sidious and Valkorion run a short Gauntlet. With full rest in between, how far do they get?

1: Yoda
2. Revan, Arcann, and Vaylin
3. Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun
4. Luke Skywalker (FOTJ) and Darth Krayt (Composite)
5. Zonama Sekot
6. The Daughter

Boss: Tilotny

Fights take place in the Eternal Throne Room.

1: They stomp.
2: They win.
3: They win, I'd say actually more easily than against those in round 2, mainly due to Sadow and Nadd being mostly unknowns.
4: They win.
5: Wut. The planet?
6: Not sure about the full extent of her powers tbh.

Boss: No idea how she'd fare in combat against these two.

Regarding the Luke and krayt debate
I say that krayt gets beaten by sidious while valkorion holds off luke (or the other way around it doesn't matter)
And I'm sorry but I don't think even the great luke skywalker can deal with both of these two

They're not defeating the Daughter but I'm willing to be convinced that they give her a decent fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, he targeted both, and how does this refute what I was saying?
Even if he targeted both, it isn't an insta-win for him. Abeloth lost the battle due to her idiotic strategy rather then lack of power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, I know...I was trying to establish Krayt's usefulness. He can probably give Valkorian a fight, although I'm not sure if he can last long against Palpatine. But Luke can take care of this either way.
You are foolishly assuming that Darth Krayt and Luke Skywalker will just tank everything thrown at them! This is not the case.

Valkorion and Palpatine (DE) do not physically grapple with their opponents (by virtue of utilizing some sort of tentacles); they are like Tanks and Artillery.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that members of Team 2 should avoid a melee-oriented combat strategy and use their overwhelming powers to their advantage instead. Valkorion isn't much fond of melee-oriented combat tactics so he can be expected to adopt the role of heavy artillery while Palpatine engages one (most probably Luke due to history).

In-fact, both Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion can affect both members of Team 1 with their powers simultaneously. Team 1 will be engulfed, trapped, weakened and eventually destroyed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
When has he ever successfully done this?
Here is an example: https://i.imgur.com/15dEtT9.webm

Want to see more?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The best applicable AoE we see out of Valkorian is overwhelming (with prep, on a nexus) a Jedi strike team with no members remotely on Luke or Krayt's level.
What kind of prep?
What kind of nexus?

Here:

The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopeda

Your assumptions are baseless.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He can kill a distracted Darth Marr, for example, but he does it individually.
I debunked this nonsense in another thread.

Darth Marr was focused on Valkorion when the latter attacked:

http://i65.tinypic.com/34o3lfc.png

Darth Marr's remarks also confirmed that Valkorion's attack 'destroyed' his body; something that is not animated.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I never said Luke was as powerful as Abeloth, I said that he could contend with concentrated versions of her avatar, which is far beyond anything that Valkorian or Palpatine have done.
Valkorion defeated an entire Dark Council from afar, repelled lightsaber strikes at point-blank range, telepathically influenced billions of individuals across the planet, created beings of pure Dark Side energy and also killed a planet. These showings trump anything Luke have done so far.

Luke just demonstrated a fact that contending with Abeloth was not impossible under certain circumstances. Abeloth was never a dozen times stronger then Luke.

You do know a fried body is still destroyed? It doesn't need to be obliterated. Welcome to figurative language, LeGenD.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
With some level of prep, on a nexus, off-screen, using an undisclosed ability he never replicates in any context that could be scrutinized, even when it would have benefited him to do so? Obviously he would use it here.
What kind of prep was involved? Mind sharing it?

I admit that the offensive technique (involved in this confrontation) have not been identified so far but this doesn't imply that Valkorion never used it again.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So what? Pre-NJO Luke can telekinetically destroy Vader's fortress. Heck, even before DE he muses about being able to tear the hull off capital ships. This isn't particularly impressive.
Collapsing buildings and downing Starships are entirely different challenges.

And downing scores of Starships is not an impressive feat?

As for collapsing buildings:

https://i.imgur.com/BytFLox.webm

This was a multi-story structure (15 - 20 stories tall).

And Valkorion >>> Vaylin

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is this applicable in a two v two confrontation? Luke resisted the TP of UnuThul, who essentially mind-f*cked half of Jedi order, let alone unwitting and non-Force sensitive populations.
Valkorion's telepathic powers are combat-applicable. You don't know this?

Luke Skywalker resisted UnuThul's telepathic influence with a strategy; Luke would project thoughts of his earlier history with Raynar Thul into the mind of UnuThul whenever the latter would attempt to intrude into the mind of Luke, dissuading UnuThul in this manner during each attempt. UnuThul eventually gave-up.

However, Luke does not have the aforementioned luxury vis-a-vis Valkorion. Looking into the mind of Valkorion leads to looking into an endless void that have a demoralizing effect on the probing individual instead. And Valkorion is also a superior telepath then UnuThul.

Valkorion have broken legendary warriors in combat situations (including the duo of Revan and Malak) and his showings on planet Ziost trump all other telepathic showings in the mythos in scale and scope.

On Ziost, Valkorion telepathically influenced countless individuals across the planet including many battle-hardened Republic forces, Imperial forces, Jedi and Sith. Here is a glimpse:

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111138626/4619372-2707046829-4jAix.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's never actually done this in combat.
Valkorion used his powers to transform the entirety of Ziost into a battlefield. He was directly responsible for the death and destruction across this planet.

It won't be difficult for Valkorion to use Force Drain powers during a (so-called) combat situation. Lesser Force-users have utilized Force Drain powers in combat situations successfully. Don't be naive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Actually, I can. Valkorian has never done anything to give him the raw combative prowess of Luke Skywalker, whether or not he can perform esoteric rituals or not. Your examples are hardly convincing.
Right......

Valkorion (easily) defeated a powerful Sith Lord at the age of 10, an entire rebellious Dark Council from afar, a Strike Team of powerful Jedi, and legendary warriors such as Revan, Darth Marr, Arcann and the Outlander on separate occasions.

- Revan doesn't needs an introduction or does he?
- Darth Marr is among the most powerful Sith with skills second to none and history of soundly defeating other powerful Sith, several warriors at a time, and even routing entire armies of the Republic during the war.
- Arcann was so powerful that no Jedi or Sith could hope to defeat him in a confrontation
- Hero of Tython is officially the Outlander - a veteran of Great Galactic War and the most powerful Jedi of his era.

---

Luke defeated Darth Vader, Lumiya, UnuThul and Darth Caedus on separate occasions. However, let's have a look at his failures:

- Luke outdueled Palpatine in a confrontation but could not stop the latter without assistance from his allies.
- Luke lost to the duo of Exar Kun (a weakened Force ghost during this time) and Kyp Durron (an apprentice during this time); badly I may add.
- Luke could not contend with Lord Nyax on his own
- Luke suffered severe injuries during his confrontation with Darth Caedus

There are other situations in which lesser Force-users have successfully affected Luke with their powers.

I may also add that Luke's skills with a Lightsaber give him advantage over others in a melee-oriented engagement. Ever seen Luke utterly dominating or one-shotting powerful opponents with just his Force powers?

So tell me! How Luke stands apart from Valkorion in the aspect of combat? He doesn't. In-fact, Luke doesn't matches the sheer effectiveness of Valkorion in the domain of Force powers during combat situations.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TK: Manipulating dorvin bassals (which have pulled moons out of orbit),
1. Luke felt that it was easy to manipulate Dovin Basals through the Force.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

Taken from Star Wars: Dark Tide: Onslaught

2. The above is reinforced by the fact that Kyp Durron also matched Luke's aforementioned feat. And Kyp Durron is on par with Darth Vader in raw power.

3. Dovin Basal vary in size and capabilities. The moon-pulling Dovin Basals are huge and most powerful among them. However, nobody ever attempted to manipulate this kind of Dovin Basal.

4. Keeping in mind the fact that Dovin Basals cannot offer much against Force powers, it wouldn't surprise me if even the most powerful among them were also susceptible to manipulation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
destroying Vader's fortress,
Covered above.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
rooting himself so that a supermassive black hole cannot move him,
The Outlander could unite a thousand stars. Hyperboles should be disregarded; they won't help you in a debate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
pinning Caedus to his chair.
Valkorion have vastly superior showings with his Force powers.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate's best feat is destroying a temple (on a nexus).
Valkorion's top showing is killing a world like Darth Nihilus.

Do keep in mind that Valkorion managed to collapse a large segment of the Dark Temple during his most compromised condition; after suffering a major setback from the disruption of his most ambitious ritual and destruction of his Voice on top of it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TP: Luke resisted the efforts of UnuThul and Abeloth, so it's implausible to claim that Valkorian can dominate him. His best domination feats are of wide-non-Force sensitive populations; Palpatine could do that too, and couldn't overpower Luke. That he can mind-screw vastly weaker characters (.ie mando-wars Revan/Malak, pre-prime HoT, Tol Braga) means nothing.
Covered above

Valkorion is unparalleled in the domain of telepathic powers FYI. Even if we assume that Valkorion cannot outright break Luke Skywalker on a moment's notice, he have the capability to disorient the Jedi Master and take advantage.

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Speed: Pre-DE Luke can run long distances at > 60 kph, DE Luke can already move faster than Leia can see, NJO Luke looks like he's fighting with 20-30 lightsabers. And you say Vitiate can't be blitzed...because weaklings haven't managed to do it yet?


- Satele Shan is officially stated to be unbelievably fast; another Force-user found it difficult to cope with her speed. Satele Shan have blitzed and/or killed opponents in split-second moments, mind you. Yet, she was hesitate to confront Valkorion.

- Darth Marr could move so fast that another powerful Force-user could not track his movements. Here:

Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. "I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it."

"I see no reason to."

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

"You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power

- Lord Scourge, years before his prime, was stated to move at blinding speeds. During his prime, he met his match in Hero of Tython. The latter also have history of blitzing two opponents at a time.

- Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lord Scourge and Hero of Tython - all have history of dodging/evading attacks at point-blank range during combat situations.

- Aryn Leener - who fought Darth Malgus to a standstill for a while - also have some of the best speed feats in the mythos.

And yet, none of the above were capable of blitzing Valkorion. Don't be naive.

Valkorion can move, react and attack much faster then you imagine or tend to believe. I will cover this issue in a blog soon.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lightsaber prowess: obviously in Luke's favor. Valkorian can block some lightsaber strikes, cool; Luke can cut through vong-resistant armor, and has the shatterpoint ability. He just overwhelms Valkorian's defenses up close.
Block some?

Valkorion can block/repel lightsaber strikes at point-blank range with barely an effort. Only The Ones have comparable showings in this regard.

How is cutting through the body armor and having shatterpoint ability beneficial in this case? A lightsaber can cut through most objects like a knife through a butter (no need for a forceful blow in most cases).

Even a supposedly Lightsaber-resistant body armor cannot offer complete protection against a lightsaber; it can be eventually cut through and also have weak points that can be exploited.

Shatterpoint talent is useful in some situations but not all! Its not a magic. FYI: Satele Shan and Lord Scourge also developed shatterpoint abilities at some point but they weren't unstoppable due to it.

B/W Arcann is physically very strong. He have disarmed powerful Sith by just grabbing their wrists.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What is this supposed to mean? I can react in "split-second" moments. Valkorian's reflexes are nowhere near as impressive as those of Luke. Luke has taken on entire Vong armies in melee; when has Valkorian ever demonstrated the quick-draw to lightning him before he closes the distance?
Here is a glimpse of Valkorion's reaction-time:

https://i.imgur.com/NZzuotc.webm

"Accept my help or watch her die. Choose quickly: time have not stopped." (Valkorion during the aforementioned moment)

By the time Valkorion responded, that Knight of Zakuul was still in motion and Valkorion killed him before he could land a blow at Lana Beniko.

As I pointed out earlier, Valkorion is much faster then you can imagine or tend to believe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And FotJ Luke has never lost to an old emperor before, so I guess it can never happen, right? Lol.
Nobody is fast enough to blitz Valkorion, period.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His inferiors actually have experience engaging in melee combat. Valkorian can block the slow-ass strikes of his son designed to stall him, sure. He hasn't done anything more.
Slow-ass?

Arcann's blows were animated to look slow (for storytelling purpose only) because we (as normal humans) won't be able to keep track of his movements in real-time. Well-trained Force-users tend to move at blinding speeds in general and a normal human cannot maintain track of their movements. I thought this was common knowledge?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is an incredibly unconvincing reply and you probably recognize this. You think that the Father, canonically the most powerful Force user in the mythos, was just lying for no reason, or mistaken, and just went through the efforts to exile his own children in a pocket dimension for the heck of it?
Characters tend to lie and manipulate to achieve their goals. The Father is not an exception.

They get stomped by the Daughter.

Yep.

Did Legend just try to lowball dovin basal manipulation?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Characters tend to lie and manipulate to achieve their goals. The Father is not an exception. Lmao, still haven't had this brain tumour removed yet I see.

Luke solo'ing Valkorion and Palpatine? What?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
They get stomped by the Daughter.

I'm not arguing against this, but why do you say it? Is the Daughter really that powerful?

Well Taalon partway through his pool of knowledge transformation was dominating Luke and the Daughter was already an immortal being of immense made of force energy prior to being completely transformed by said pool... So yeah, Daughter is that powerful.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'm not arguing against this, but why do you say it? Is the Daughter really that powerful?

The Father acknowledges that if his children were released they would cause widespread chaos and destruction and rip the fabric of space apart. He worries about this in spite of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in history being around not to mention 10,000 Jedi Knights and the most powerful militaries forged in the history of the galaxy.

The Ones are not just a tier but tiers and tiers above even the likes of Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
the most powerful militaries forged in the history of the galaxy.

HAHAHAHAH what?

QUOTE=15691432]Originally posted by Lord Stark
The Ones are not just a tier but tiers and tiers above even the likes of Yoda and Sidious.

The Clone army and the CIS army were massive. The Clone Wars threw the entire Force out of balance. It was likely the largest conflict, and likely will remain, in galactic history.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Clone army and the CIS army were massive. The Clone Wars threw the entire Force out of balance. It was likely the largest conflict, and likely will remain, in galactic history.

Actually that was Sidious's Sith rituals.

I don't dispute that it was the largest war in Galactic history, but the notion that either is larger than either the Rakata Infinite Empire or the Eternal Empire of Zakuul is laughable.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Actually that was Sidious's Sith rituals.
Actually, no it wasn't. TCW retconned the Force to being out of balance after Maul was beaten by Kenobi. and TCW>some shit EU novel, in Legend's canon.

The Force seems to have already been out of balance prior to TPM. It just continues to become less balanced as the war goes on until the Jedi are extinct and Palpatine reigns supreme.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I don't dispute that it was the largest war in Galactic history, but the notion that either is larger than either the Rakata Infinite Empire or the Eternal Empire of Zakuul is laughable.

No. It's really not. Anyway, the GE has the biggest military ever so...

Eh, Maul acts like the Force being out of balance is strange. If it was some gradual thing, he wouldn't act that way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Actually, no it wasn't. TCW retconned the Force to being out of balance after Maul was beaten by Kenobi. and TCW>some shit EU novel, in Legend's canon.

F*ck off I thought we were just discussing it in a general sense. I don't give a shit about canon saying something different. If they don't outright contradict eachother I don't see why they can't exist alongside eachother.

That's an outright contradiction. And they can't coexist because that's not how continuity works.

Then why is Yoda's vision clouded in AotC?

I do find it amusing that you lecture me on using "hyperbole" and trusting the Father's subjective word, and then base 90% of your posts on accolades about how Valkorian is "incredibly powerful" (as if that's somehow a quantifiable or meaningful piece of evidence) and can make beings of "pure dark side energy" (which obviously gives us lots of data points with which to compare him with Luke).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even if he targeted both, it isn't an insta-win for him. Abeloth lost the battle due to her idiotic strategy rather then lack of power.


Regardless, Luke and Krayt were powerful enough to not be ragdolled or oneshotted by her, .ie they were closer in power to her than Revan was to Vitiate.



How is Palpatine supposed to prevent both of them from reaching Valkorian at the same time? "Tanking" won't work here.

It's one thing to argue that the Emperors outclass Luke and Krayt in Force abilities. It's another thing to claim that they outclass the duo by such a margin that they can win this fight in the seconds it takes for the two to close the gap on them and force a melee. They don't have the speed feats to avoid Luke, so their only hope is to basically one-shot him. There are a few options here:




Telepathy: Vitiate + the dread masters could not break Revan in 300 years. Somehow I doubt that Valkorian alone is breaking him in 3 seconds.
Telekinesis: dovin basal manipulation, Vader's fortress and supermassive black hole >>>
Lightning: basically the only option for Valkorian. But it is implied that not even the Reborn Emperor could overwhelm the amped DE Luke with it, and you typically need a significant disparity in ability to overwhelm someone w/a lightsaber using lightning (think: Sidious vs. Windu, Dooku vs Obi Wan), and that likely does not apply here. Besides, what is Valky's greatest lightning feat? Shaking some capital ships? ooohhhh...that's something pre-NJO Luke could do with raw telekinesis.


Or what if Luke tosses his lightsaber at Valkorian and uses the distraction to get personal and shatter his spine with shatterpoint? Or what if he folds-space his lightsaber into his skull? There are all sorts of tactical advantages that come with being able to engage at multiple combat ranges, rather than just trying to Force-lightning everyone.




And suspiciously never replicates that ability when encountered without prep in non-nexuses.

Regardless, I'm not really impressed at his ability to kill 10 no-name fodder sith.



So? Even Dark Empire Luke can absorb AT-AT laser cannons.



There's a distinction between being able to influence large groups of unwitting non-force sensitives, and applying that against a Jedi grandmaster in the middle of combat.



You know how everybody mocks Revan fanboys with the "heart of the Force" quote? You're like that, except you aren't trying to be satirical. Doesn't it occur to you that "being of pure Dark Side energy" is a meaningless quote that doesn't hold any analytical value?

Doubtlessly you respond to this by pointing out that this must mean Valkorian is "incredibly powerful", and make me fall over in laughter at your inability to progress beyond vague adjectives like "incredibly" and "very".



Dovan basils have tugged moons, which actually takes a lot more energy than razing a planetary surface.

The black hole at the center of the galaxy quote isn't figurative. The author is clearly trying to convey the idea that Luke makes himself literally immovable - if he were going for some fluffy hyperbole, he wouldn't have gone through several progressive comparisons:

But this time Luke was ready, he placed his own hand in front of Raynar's, rooted himself in the heart of the force. And when he did that he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him; not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's 16 ion engines, not the blackhole at the center of the galaxy itself. Luke stood that way waiting, fully aware that the remaining bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions.

So he writes "very essence of the immovable object", but figures most people would take this as a figurative statement - so he makes this clear by invoking progressively stronger forces and dismissing their ability to move him. The literalness seems pretty clear to me. (Use inversion: what would the author have written if he wanted to make the literal point? Pretty much exactly what he did. You don't put that much effort into making hyperbole seem real.)

You've given me lots of instances where Valkorian takes on groups of Force users, none of whom are as powerful as Skywalker. That's great, but it hardly suggests that he can overwhelm Luke in particular. There are essentially two methodologies that we can use to compare the two:

Powerscaling - in this case Valky doesn't stand a chance, since he's < TPM Sidious by canon. While Luke > Sidious in actualized power has never been confirmed, it seems highly probabe given that a) he was already powerful enough that Palpatine acknowledged he could give him (pre-young body) a good fight in DE b) he just needed some unlocked potential from Leia to defeat Wankatine, and 30 years of training probably outweighs that and c) we do know that full potential Luke > Sidious, and from precedent he's probably nearing that potential by age 60.

Feats - the supermassive black hole feat is really the greatest in all of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
HAHAHAHAH what?

It's a reasonable claim, given technological progression and the sheer scale of the armies involved. The Clone Wars era galaxy is the most combatively formidable up to its time in galactic history.

Originally posted by Trocity
Did Legend just try to lowball dovin basal manipulation?
I am neither lowballing it and nor overhyping it.

It's not a showing that is exclusive to Luke Skywalker when we have proof that even a Darth Vader level Force-user (i.e. Kyp Durron) could pull it off.

End of case.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, still haven't had this brain tumour removed yet I see.
So we should take each and every claim of a character at face value without focusing on the context and ground realities at hand?

Did Abeloth manage to ruin the galaxy with her powers (or even close) during the time-span of her freedom?

No character is powerful enough to destroy the Universe itself; it is too vast and huge. I'd say that no character can one-shot even an entire solar system with strictly personal abilities; forget the galaxy or larger cosmic formations.

The maximum we have is a statement that the The Ones might have ruined the galaxy with their powers. This would be a consequence of their virtually eternal feuds and it might have taken a thousand years or perhaps much more, based on the showings of Abeloth (a being of comparable power).

Originally posted by ares834
The Force seems to have already been out of balance prior to TPM. It just continues to become less balanced as the war goes on until the Jedi are extinct and Palpatine reigns supreme.
The balance of the Cosmic Force fluctuates (sometimes the tilt is towards the Dark Side; sometimes the tilt is towards the Light Side) by virtue of various developments throughout galactic history. Force-sensitive beings are directly responsible for disturbing the balance of the Force.

Yes, the balance of the Cosmic Force had titled towards the Dark Side (prior) to the events of PT.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's a distinction between being able to influence large groups of unwitting non-force sensitives, and applying that against a Jedi grandmaster in the middle of combat.


1. It is difficult to telepathically influence even a single strong-willed individual irrespective of Force-sensitivity of the individual.

Example 1: Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn could not telepathically influence Watto.

Example 2: It took 3 Jedi Masters (Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker among them) to break Cad Bane with their telepathic abilities with joint effort.

Watto and Cad Bane weren't Force-sensitive or were they?

In comparison:

Valkorion telepathically influenced countless individuals (including many battle-hardened soldiers of the Republic and the Empire, Sith and Jedi) on planet Ziost; a solid evidence of his tremendous power and command of telepathic powers on the whole. Below is just one revelation:

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet's Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

Valkorion telepathically subjugated even scores of Jedi Masters on planet Ziost (Master Surro, Master Onok and Master Landai 'among' them).

Valkorion considered Master Surro an asset in particular because she was among the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and withstood everything in her path while others would fall. Master Surro even managed to break free from Valkorion's telepathic influence for a while (by virtue of her great strength in the Force) but Valkorion would not give-up on her and repossessed her.

I do not assert that telepathic powers are infallible but it is foolish to dismiss the threat of Valkorion's formidable command of telepathic powers and his potential to break even the strongest Jedi.

Even if you believe that Valkorion needs like 10 seconds to break a Jedi as powerful as Luke, and Luke can do a lot in the span of 10 seconds, you are overlooking the bigger picture here; Valkorion can telepathically assault Luke with a thought and disorient the Jedi Master enough to reduce his effectiveness in a combat situation and take advantage of this development.

I shall also remind you that Valkorion can multi-task with his powers. It is possible for Valkorion to assault Luke with his telepathic abilities (and) some other power at the same time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You know how everybody mocks Revan fanboys with the "heart of the Force" quote? You're like that, except you aren't trying to be satirical. Doesn't it occur to you that "being of pure Dark Side energy" is a meaningless quote that doesn't hold any analytical value?

Doubtlessly you respond to this by pointing out that this must mean Valkorian is "incredibly powerful", and make me fall over in laughter at your inability to progress beyond vague adjectives like "incredibly" and "very".
Here:

Given enough intellect, knowledge, fortitude and power, Sith alchemy can be used to achieve the seemingly impossible, such as transforming flesh and bone to form vicious Sithspawn such as the imposing Massassi and the unstoppable Terentatek. But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

Taken from Codex Entry titled "Monolith."

This codex entry is carrying a message: if Monolith (a being of pure Dark Side energy) is nearly impossible to kill, imagine what would it take to stop Valkorion himself. We have a quantifiable revelation here.

Don't mistake me for one of those Revan fanboys. I tend to cite examples that are meaningful for a discussion at hand.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dovan basils have tugged moons, which actually takes a lot more energy than razing a planetary surface.
Really?

1. Not every Dovin Basal can do that! Don't try to generalize them. In addition, those select-few Dovin Basals would disturb the orbit of a moon and leave the rest to the gravitational forces.

2. Dovin Basals certainly have impressive capabilities but they are also vulnerable to Force powers; a weakness that Jedi managed to exploit.

3. Destroying an entire world is one of the most challenging tasks for a single Force-user. To give you an idea, it took 8000 Sith to pull-off a Ziost-like outcome. This is close to the strength of an entire Jedi Order in an era.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Dark%20Empire%20Luke%20Walker_zpsfhboopof.png

Nah, he absorbed shots first.

?

He's deflecting them with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
?

He's deflecting them with his lightsaber.

...Are we looking at the same panel? The one from Dark Empire? The one where the shots are striking against a Force field by his left shoulder while his lightsaber is off to his right?

The narration is talking about his lightsaber skills though and theres a lightsaber sound effect. And that "force field" is just the stupid way Dark Empire draws force users like all the time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The black hole at the center of the galaxy quote isn't figurative. The author is clearly trying to convey the idea that Luke makes himself literally immovable - if he were going for some fluffy hyperbole, he wouldn't have gone through several progressive comparisons:

But this time Luke was ready, he placed his own hand in front of Raynar's, rooted himself in the heart of the force. And when he did that he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him; not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's 16 ion engines, not the blackhole at the center of the galaxy itself. Luke stood that way waiting, fully aware that the remaining bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions.

So he writes "very essence of the immovable object", but figures most people would take this as a figurative statement - so he makes this clear by invoking progressively stronger forces and dismissing their ability to move him. The literalness seems pretty clear to me. (Use inversion: what would the author have written if he wanted to make the literal point? Pretty much exactly what he did. You don't put that much effort into making hyperbole seem real.)
Right...

And the Outlander could unite a thousand Stars with a weapon that was an extension of his will.

--

No.

Luke struggled to influence an artificial micro blackhole. Yet, he had the power to resist a supermassive blackhole? Doesn't makes sense at all.

Normal blackholes restricted the movement of Abeloth in the Maw Cluster and she was more powerful then Luke.

A supermassive blackhole is much more powerful then a normal blackhole. And a normal blackhole is much more powerful then Vong based manifestations. A normal blackhole can restrict the movements of a being such as Abeloth and/or destroy her. A normal blackhole could also destroy a superweapon such as Sun Crusher that endured the extreme environment of a gas giant planet.

Therefore, that revelation is hyperbole. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The narration is talking about his lightsaber skills though and theres a lightsaber sound effect. And that "force field" is just the stupid way Dark Empire draws force users like all the time.

The narration discusses his Force powers and skill and then his lightsaber prowess... which is why, in the very next scan, he deflects the bolts with his lightsaber without narration.

He absorbs them first {demonstration of his powers and skill} then deflects the rest with his lightsaber {demonstration of his skill with the laser sword}.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right...

And the Outlander could unite a thousand Stars with a weapon that was an extension of his will.


I love how you completely ignore all of the analysis you just quoted and instead give the same cookie cutter response it was preemptively refuting.



I can support Neph's mother on my body without any difficulty. Yet, I try to lift her a few meters, and it tires me. How could this be? Clearly Neph having a mom is mere hyperbole.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Given enough intellect, knowledge, fortitude and power, Sith alchemy can be used to achieve the seemingly impossible, such as transforming flesh and bone to form vicious Sithspawn such as the imposing Massassi and the unstoppable Terentatek. But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

Taken from Codex Entry titled "Monolith."

This codex entry is carrying a message: if Monolith (a being of pure Dark Side energy) is nearly impossible to kill, imagine what would it take to stop Valkorion himself. We have a quantifiable revelation here.

Don't mistake me for one of those Revan fanboys. I tend to cite examples that are meaningful for a discussion at hand.

It's almost like just did that thing in order to prove to people that you didn't do it...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The narration discusses his Force powers and skill and then his lightsaber prowess... which is why, in the very next scan, he deflects the bolts with his lightsaber without narration.

He absorbs them first {demonstration of his powers and skill} then deflects the rest with his lightsaber {demonstration of his skill with the laser sword}.

That's idiotic. Why not just move the narration over so they'd match up? That the narration is talking about his lightsaber skills in the panel when he deflects them indicates he did it with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's idiotic. Why not just move the narration over so they'd match up? That the narration is talking about his lightsaber skills in the panel when he deflects them indicates he did it with his lightsaber.

Not really lol.

Notice the lack of bluish energy surrounding Luke when he actually, y'know, deflects the bolts with his lightsaber. Which is probably why the narration went to all that trouble to mention both his Force powers and lightsaber prowess: to actually demonstrate both.

Behold, I give you reason.

Good luck actually trying to make this case lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you completely ignore all of the analysis you just quoted and instead give the same cookie cutter response it was preemptively refuting.



I can support Neph's mother on my body without any difficulty. Yet, I try to lift her a few meters, and it tires me. How could this be? Clearly Neph having a mom is mere hyperbole.
And the Outlander can unite a thousand Stars

Wait! Did Luke found himself in a position that he had to resist the pull of a supermassive blackhole? Like ever? No.

Sorry, my friend. I don't take hyperboles seriously.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Outlander can unite a thousand Stars! Obviously.

http://www.andreaverdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/exasperated.gif

That's - you literally just repeated the exact same argument that I was addressing, and ignored all the specific points that I made to differentiate the two statements...did you even recognize that they were there?

I give up. If you finally manage to acquire the reading comprehension skills of a twelve year old, please feel free to actually respond to the sentences that are being constructed for you. Let me know if you do so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really lol.

Notice the lack of bluish energy surrounding Luke when he actually, y'know, deflects the bolts with his lightsaber. Which is probably why the narration went to all that trouble to mention both his Force powers and lightsaber prowess: to actually demonstrate both.

Behold, I give you reason.

Good luck actually trying to make this case lmao.

That's not a reason lol. He can demonstrate both while the narration is actually on the right panels. That the DE illustrations are shitty and confusing changes nothing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You've given me lots of instances where Valkorian takes on groups of Force users, none of whom are as powerful as Skywalker.
I'd say that Revan and Arcann are close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's great, but it hardly suggests that he can overwhelm Luke in particular.
If Valkorion could kill a world; he could kill a single Jedi. There isn't a need for a demonstration of power that may suggest otherwise.

I'd say that Darth Nihilus can also kill Luke Skywalker; he have powers and feats to indicate as much.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There are essentially two methodologies that we can use to compare the two:

Powerscaling - in this case Valky doesn't stand a chance, since he's < TPM Sidious by canon. While Luke > Sidious in actualized power has never been confirmed, it seems highly probabe given that a) he was already powerful enough that Palpatine acknowledged he could give him (pre-young body) a good fight in DE b) he just needed some unlocked potential from Leia to defeat Wankatine, and 30 years of training probably outweighs that and c) we do know that full potential Luke > Sidious, and from precedent he's probably nearing that potential by age 60.
Regarding power-scaling:

No source asserts that Palpatine was more powerful then Valkorion. There is only one source in which Vitiate's (early) history was briefly mentioned and Palpatine was stated to be "might be" the most powerful Sith in it.

If Vitiate's (early) history was sufficient to make an author doubt Palpatine's superiority, imagine the shit-storm that Ziost and Knights of the Fallen Empire based story-arcs of Vitiate would cause among the authors while documenting them.

Most importantly; Valkorion is not a Sith in strict terms; he have become more then a Sith and evolved into an seemingly immortal entity. The SWTOR content have been portraying his transformation and the latest Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion clearly distinguishes Valkorion from Sith. I don't think that any sourcebook cover these newer developments.

Moreover, Valkorion does not exists in canon. So Palpatine might be the most powerful Sith in galactic history in canon; his position doesn't influences the position of Valkorion.

Regarding Luke:

Luke certainly became more powerful after the events of Dark Empire but his growth in power is subject to interpretation. We observe Luke not having an answer for threats like Exar Kun and Lord Nyax (after) the events of Dark Empire. Luke also struggled to defeat Darth Caedus.

I am sorry but Luke isn't some unstoppable thing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Feats - the supermassive black hole feat is really the greatest in all of Star Wars.
It's not a feat; it's an unsubstantiated claim.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://www.andreaverdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/exasperated.gif

That's - you literally just repeated the exact same argument that I was addressing, and ignored all the specific points that I made to differentiate the two statements...did you even recognize that they were there?

I give up. If you finally manage to acquire the reading comprehension skills of a twelve year old, please feel free to actually respond to the sentences that are being constructed for you. Let me know if you do so.
Mind clarifying which argument of yours have I missed so far?

You should give up on taking hyperboles seriously. Unfortunately, you are not interested in that.