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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
God created us ill,
According to Christianity, he didn't. Sin was brought into the world through free will.

I agree that among Christian sects, the Gnostics have the healthiest view - no Hell for starters. And a lot of them believe in a High, True God Who exists in another realm or Pleroma, in a completely separate realm from Yahweh and other false, creator-gods. The Other Realm saves and enlightens the Gnostic and helps the adherent to pass through all the false worlds that stand between earth and the realm of the True, Alien God.

BTW, Does the OP know any books that have extensive research into Gnosticism?

Originally posted by Astner
According to Christianity, he didn't. Sin was brought into the world through free will.

Correct. That was the ill part as he really got upset the first time A & E exercised that free will to open their eyes and not be as bright as bricks.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Ayelewis
I agree that among Christian sects, the Gnostics have the healthiest view - no Hell for starters. And a lot of them believe in a High, True God Who exists in another realm or Pleroma, in a completely separate realm from Yahweh and other false, creator-gods. The Other Realm saves and enlightens the Gnostic and helps the adherent to pass through all the false worlds that stand between earth and the realm of the True, Alien God.

BTW, Does the OP know any books that have extensive research into Gnosticism?

Please do not mix our beliefs with the myths we wrote to counter the Christian myth. We use them but do not believe in any literal God.

We still hold to what the ancients did before Christianity and Islam became idol worshipers.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Gnostic Christians do not believe in anything supernatural.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

As to research, I would begin with Elaine Pagels, author and scholar.

Also.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Yes, I agree.

I think that people have the capacity for good and evil, but humans are the way we have evolved to be through whatever force has guided us to where we are. Call it "God" or "Spirit" or "Life Force" or whatever. No condemnation or salvation is inherent in any way, shape, or form. I used to hate this phrase, but I think it actually is appropriate: "It is what it is."

Speaking as a Christian Universalist, Hell is the most ****ed up part of traditional Christian theology.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Speaking as a Christian Universalist, Hell is the most ****ed up part of traditional Christian theology.

It's for fear. To control people. Same reason our governments love terrorism.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?I don't think so, but how would you go about determining what is and isn't evil? What precisely is "evil?" Can you demonstrate to us what evil is without using any form of relativism as support?

Nah, I'm pretty sure Christianity says nothing about needing to "work to gain salvation." It certainly suggests works are a result of faith, but that doesn't appear to be what you're saying here.

Lets assume all of the premises of Christianity are valid. How precisely, therefore, has God created us ill? Who tells us that exactly? A conclusion I assume will be supported in the next paragraph.

If by "Gnostic Christianity", you mean Christianity in which its adherents are sure of their faith, no, it doesn't. In fact, it teaches the opposite. It teaches how we benefit from these principals regardless of some heavenly reward. Ah, then you mean something besides what I'm thinking when I see the words "Gnostic Christianity."

A thought I'd have to strongly reject. Perhaps your intentions are good, but you make the mistake of subverting your own standards in place of God's and disregard clear aspects of his nature (such as his wrath and judgment). The author of morality and creator of existence makes the rules and has absolute dominion over his creation.

I'm not too knowledgeable of the various terms various groups make to describe themselves, but why label your group as "Gnostic Christians" if you reject Christianity? Help me out, bro! Our single eye is our heart. And frankly, it's 'openess" is merely dependent on one's willingness for it to be open.

If I might ask, how does everyone contribute to say . . . a group of aborigines who live on some island off the coast of Australia? Not trying to bash you or anything, but I just don't see how everyone could possibly contribute to what everyone else is. Nor do I believe that one can possibly reach their maximum potential without learning to be accountable for their own actions. It's bit of a limitation in my experience.

What exactly made Hitler what he ended up being? Sounded like vanity and envy to me. Something his victims most certainly weren't responsible for.

Lets go a step further. Why stop at just God? Why don't we apply to this standard to our judicial system? Perhaps the Sandusky coach child rapist would not have raped children had the people his own age responded better to his advances in his earlier years? Maybe they're the ones who need to be punished for not seeing what a swell guy the Sandusky coach and thus refusing to give him the time of day. Should we not have let him off the hook as opposed to sentencing him to a lengthy time in prison?

I disagree. You can put two people in the exact same position and the exact same circumstances and get two different results. Our universe is by no means bound to the confines determinism is actually quite 'random' as far as modern science is concerned. If the premises of Christianity hold, we all free will and are thus all accountable for own behavior.

Not at all. I've seen nothing in your post to support that conclusion. Even from a purely secular and hedonism standpoint, Salvation, even if a lie, is a fairly useful means of keeping communities in tact and a great way to discourage any unnecessary anarchy.

https://media.giphy.com/media/26FLfhKlJw2uL7a9O/source.gif

Originally posted by Adam_PoE


Christians especially do not care that their priests and preachers are perpetually lying to them.

Not too bright eh?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I don't think so, but how would you go about determining what is and isn't evil? What precisely is "evil?" Can you demonstrate to us what evil is without using any form of relativism as support?

Nah, I'm pretty sure Christianity says nothing about needing to "work to gain salvation." It certainly suggests works are a result of faith, but that doesn't appear to be what you're saying here.

Lets assume all of the premises of Christianity are valid. How precisely, therefore, has God created us ill? Who tells us that exactly? A conclusion I assume will be supported in the next paragraph.

If by "Gnostic Christianity", you mean Christianity in which its adherents are sure of their faith, no, it doesn't. In fact, it teaches the opposite. It teaches how we benefit from these principals regardless of some heavenly reward. Ah, then you mean something besides what I'm thinking when I see the words "Gnostic Christianity."

A thought I'd have to strongly reject. Perhaps your intentions are good, but you make the mistake of subverting your own standards in place of God's and disregard clear aspects of his nature (such as his wrath and judgment). The author of morality and creator of existence makes the rules and has absolute dominion over his creation.

I'm not too knowledgeable of the various terms various groups make to describe themselves, but why label your group as "Gnostic Christians" if you reject Christianity? Help me out, bro! Our single eye is our heart. And frankly, it's 'openess" is merely dependent on one's willingness for it to be open.

If I might ask, how does everyone contribute to say . . . a group of aborigines who live on some island off the coast of Australia? Not trying to bash you or anything, but I just don't see how everyone could possibly contribute to what everyone else is. Nor do I believe that one can possibly reach their maximum potential without learning to be accountable for their own actions. It's bit of a limitation in my experience.

What exactly made Hitler what he ended up being? Sounded like vanity and envy to me. Something his victims most certainly weren't responsible for.

Lets go a step further. Why stop at just God? Why don't we apply to this standard to our judicial system? Perhaps the Sandusky coach child rapist would not have raped children had the people his own age responded better to his advances in his earlier years? Maybe they're the ones who need to be punished for not seeing what a swell guy the Sandusky coach and thus refusing to give him the time of day. Should we not have let him off the hook as opposed to sentencing him to a lengthy time in prison?

I disagree. You can put two people in the exact same position and the exact same circumstances and get two different results. Our universe is by no means bound to the confines determinism is actually quite 'random' as far as modern science is concerned. If the premises of Christianity hold, we all free will and are thus all accountable for own behavior.

Not at all. I've seen nothing in your post to support that conclusion. Even from a purely secular and hedonism standpoint, Salvation, even if a lie, is a fairly useful means of keeping communities in tact and a great way to discourage any unnecessary anarchy.

I don't think so, but how would you go about determining what is and isn't evil? What precisely is "evil"

All I need do to know what is evil is look at what Yahweh does.

Check his body count as compared to Satan.

Which do you think is more evil?

Regards
DL