Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

No prep.
No BFR.

Wolverine sans HF, adamantium, claws. Superior senses remain.
Has two bowie knives.

Daredevil with his standard gear.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/ec/fb/85/ecfb8514db046540f7530c2c953fb55e.jpg

What about Wolverine's strength? Is it reduced to DD's level or stays the same? What about his speed?

Wolverine even without his hf his damage soak is punisher level. Logan takes it

^^^if thats what you're going with (not the win to Wolvie itself, but the damage soak reasoning), cool i guess.
But like i said in this thread (with scans)...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t624699.html

...I dont think DDs going to get "out tough"ed here. The guy's consistently taken hits from top teirs. Those same top teirs have likely all hit Wolverine, too, only DD has taken his hits with no HF, no indestructible skeleton.
Wolverine have Punisher DS is not an opinion i can really buy off on.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
What about Wolverine's strength? Is it reduced to DD's level or stays the same? What about his speed?
Dont over think it, bud; its Wolverine with the OP stips.

Originally posted by riv6672
Dont over think it, bud; its Wolverine with the OP stips.

Op does say equalish bodies so it's a bit misleading

Equaliish in that Wolverine doesnt have his major advantages.

Originally posted by riv6672
Equaliish in that Wolverine doesnt have his major advantages.

Logan still wins. He's stronger than DD. He's a more savage fighter and arguably better skilled. But thats not what makes it his match to lose. His damage soak sans hf is second to none.

Well, disagree on your DS and skill takes, but i'm looking for feedback, maybe throwing some conversation fuel on the fire.
When a thread is just me and one other guy going back and forth it defeats the purpose.

Strength doesnt play a factor here. Daredevil has constantly been able to make those stronger than him, punches less effective. If you cant land a full on hit, then half, or more than that is nulled. When it comes to skill, that can always be debated as well. Its obvious DD has more skill feats, but will he apply them here? Uncanny pressure point attacks is something thats commonly used by Matt. Id believe that because Wolvie doesnt have his hf here, its much more of a viable tactic. Who knows. I'll ride with DD for the majority.

Daredevil destroys him.

No contest.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Strength doesnt play a factor here. Daredevil has constantly been able to make those stronger than him, punches less effective. If you cant land a full on hit, then half, or more than that is nulled. When it comes to skill, that can always be debated as well. Its obvious DD has more skill feats, but will he apply them here? Uncanny pressure point attacks is something thats commonly used by Matt. Id believe that because Wolvie doesnt have his hf here, its much more of a viable tactic. Who knows. I'll ride with DD for the majority.

Welcome back

Thanks a bunch. Its been a while.

Daredevil takes this.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ddavengers4-620x816.jpg

The Beast. He looks like rug!

Daredevil for the brutal win.

Daredevil gets full-nelson'd... again

I'll be the devil's advocate and say Wolverine wins by overpowering hin

Thanks, HiH.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Daredevil takes this.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ddavengers4-620x816.jpg

Context?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Context?
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Daredevil_Vol_1_156

Originally posted by riv6672
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Daredevil_Vol_1_156

Cant find the book. So whats the synopsis? Gimmr a summary of whats going on

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/02/14/the-wrong-side-daredevil-vs-the-avengers/
Daredevil is out of his mind and his radar sense is whacky, so when he thinks Black Widow betrayed him, he storms the Avengers Mansion, stomps Beast, oneshots Cap, takes out Herc with a shield throw and proceeds to beat on BW

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/02/14/the-wrong-side-daredevil-vs-the-avengers/
Daredevil is out of his mind and his radar sense is whacky, so when he thinks Black Widow betrayed him, he storms the Avengers Mansion, stomps Beast, oneshots Cap, takes out Herc with a shield throw and proceeds to beat on BW

Thx. Looks like pis to me. Appreciate the breakdown

Pretty
Intense
Stompage

Originally posted by riv6672
Pretty
Intense
Stompage


The KMC curse - board PIS:
Perfectly
Idiotic
Statement

It was dark too i believe. Caught them by surprise. All they saw the a mysterious shadow if im not mistaken. Now, the fact that they saw the shadow does imply that it wasnt totally by surprise. They just didnt know the skill of this shadow.

If Batman had done it (pretty sure he has) no one here'd bat an eye.

He had the element of surprise, yes.

And said element didn't help him one bit against Wolverine, who put him in a full nelson hold

And thats where the encounter stopped. One can easily counter with DD using a blunt object and stunning Wolvie knocking him on his ass. Those 2 encounters had stipulations as well as 1 not really wanting to fight the other. As how many heroes fights occur, lol. In this case, Wolvie doesnt have his hf, metal or claws. Im just inclined to go with DD for a majority.

Good call.

He didn't need his hf/metal/claws when he nelson'd Matt

Yea but as Wolvie said "Nobodys got any sense left when they get near that sex, crazy time bomb." So some can say Matt was "blinded" by his love/closeness to Mary.

What about that time where DD gave Wolvie a nerve/pressure hit to the throat taking him down? Can forget about that either.

Frank dislocating both of DD's arms was awesome, too

Still give it to Logan. The fact the op had to nerf him just so Matt would have a chance speaks volumes about how deadly he is

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Still give it to Logan. The fact the op had to nerf him just so Matt would have a chance speaks volumes about how deadly he is



Logan respects Daredevil and his speed --- he's not going to underestimate Matt in this scenario.

Lol. Stilt, its irrelevant.

Sin, lol no fair. You well know that in the past, we've had page-long debates without Wolvie being hindered. Maybe the op doesnt know the history of the two or even of Matts abilities? *shrugs*

True. Meh if its a k.o then yea but out to kill? U honestly think Matt has the tools? Especially given what Logan has tanked. I mean his highs even without hf are ridiculously high. And his damage soak is insane

@jrod

You've outlived so many members. Let me guess, Earl Grey Tea? Or bathing in the blood of babies?

Well Sin, this isnt a fight to kill. Matt doesnt have the tools, but even if he did, they are somewhat cool with each other. Hell, If he aint kill Frank, he wouldnt kill Wolvie. Depends on the day i guess. One day he can be incapacitated via nerve hit another, hes getting up from a Hulk hit.

Shhh Stilt. I live by a wonderful phrase that keeps me ticking. Hakuna Matata. That and laughter.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Still give it to Logan. The fact the op had to nerf him just so Matt would have a chance speaks volumes about how deadly he is
No, it was geared towards a conversation i had where someone was confusing Wolverine's powers with skill.

Well, DD took out Beast, Cap and Herc without any special powers, the use of the dark or "luck". Through the wonders of good, old fashioned "quality writing", the situation shows Daredevil using skill, blind-sight and use of his opponents momentum and strength, to defeat the Avengers.

DD lays out Beast. And, if it helps you naysayers, we can say that DD uses a "super soldier" throw of the indestructible shield to Herc's spine and Captain America's own superhuman momentum, turned into a redirected throw onto his skull, to take the big boys out.

And, again, the writing is decent, showing that Herc was down, disoriented, but not knocked out. And, yes, I think that if Captain America was able to hurl his shield, full force, and hit Herc, unaware, in his back, it would put him down for a bit. Believable.

He doesn't do it with any super speed, super strength, or anything else DD is not supposed to have.

He simply, does it. And, Wolverine would not be able to do that without his "gear".

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers1_zpsfnq4u9xn.jpg http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers2_zpstd3l8rwk.jpg

Mart stomps in this scenario, anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Well, DD took out Beast, Cap and Herc without any special powers, the use of the dark or "luck". Through the wonders of good, old fashioned "quality writing", the situation shows Daredevil using skill, blind-sight and use of his opponents momentum and strength, to defeat the Avengers.

DD lays out Beast. And, if it helps you naysayers, we can say that DD uses a "super soldier" throw of the indestructible shield to Herc's spine and Captain America's own superhuman momentum, turned into a redirected throw onto his skull, to take the big boys out.

And, again, the writing is decent, showing that Herc was down, disoriented, but not knocked out. And, yes, I think that if Captain America was able to hurl his shield, full force, and hit Herc, unaware, in his back, it would put him down for a bit. Believable.

He doesn't do it with any super speed, super strength, or anything else DD is not supposed to have.

He simply, does it. And, Wolverine would not be able to do that without his "gear".

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers1_zpsfnq4u9xn.jpg http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers2_zpstd3l8rwk.jpg

Thank you for the scans. Couldnt find them yesterday.

Originally posted by riv6672
Thank you for the scans. Couldnt find them yesterday.
Grr so you never opened my link

I'm not big on clicking links. Hold over from surfing at work.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Well, DD took out Beast, Cap and Herc without any special powers, the use of the dark or "luck". Through the wonders of good, old fashioned "quality writing", the situation shows Daredevil using skill, blind-sight and use of his opponents momentum and strength, to defeat the Avengers.

DD lays out Beast. And, if it helps you naysayers, we can say that DD uses a "super soldier" throw of the indestructible shield to Herc's spine and Captain America's own superhuman momentum, turned into a redirected throw onto his skull, to take the big boys out.

And, again, the writing is decent, showing that Herc was down, disoriented, but not knocked out. And, yes, I think that if Captain America was able to hurl his shield, full force, and hit Herc, unaware, in his back, it would put him down for a bit. Believable.

He doesn't do it with any super speed, super strength, or anything else DD is not supposed to have.

He simply, does it. And, Wolverine would not be able to do that without his "gear".

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers1_zpsfnq4u9xn.jpg http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/th_ddavengers2_zpstd3l8rwk.jpg

This entire post is laughable. Hercules is a class 100 elite brick, then yoi have cap who is more than a match for Matt and hank who although a scrub is still superhuman and physically above dd. The only one he can conceivably beat straight up is hank. Everyone else hell no. That whole scene is the essence of pis. Pure bullshit. Lol at good writing

Nothing like reading a juvenile response to a well thought out/meaning post.
http://images.zaazu.com/img/thumbsup-thumbs-up-approve-ok-smiley-emoticon-000283-large.gif

Originally posted by riv6672
Nothing like reading a juvenile response to a well thought out/meaning post.
http://images.zaazu.com/img/thumbsup-thumbs-up-approve-ok-smiley-emoticon-000283-large.gif

Are you going to post something relevant to the discussion or are you gonna just troll your own thread?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
This entire post is laughable. Hercules is a class 100 elite brick, then yoi have cap who is more than a match for Matt and hank who although a scrub is still superhuman and physically above dd. The only one he can conceivably beat straight up is hank. Everyone else hell no. That whole scene is the essence of pis. Pure bullshit. Lol at good writing As I said in my post, DD is not shown to "beat" Herc or Cap. He defeats them.
As for Herc, well the truth is that he has been written as having a "glass jaw" for a good portion of his history. Whether u like it or not. Taking Cap's shield to the back is not Herc's lowest showing.

And, Holy God! Do u really want to argue in this direction, when Logan has had some of the most unrealistic, ridiculous, 'tard-inspired, fan-wanking victories in the history of comics? Really?

At least DD took that win without the writer suddenly upgrading him into the avatar of an abstract, a yada-yada-level mutant, the secret son of an intergalactic emperor, or another of the 100 cookie-cutter methods recent writers use to make the characters more formidable.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Are you going to post something relevant to the discussion or are you gonna just troll your own thread?
If you're man enough to make the post, then nut up and accept the responses the post gets.

Originally posted by Horrificus
As I said in my post, DD is not shown to "beat" Herc or Cap. He defeats them.
As for Herc, well the truth is that he has been written as having a "glass jaw" for a good portion of his history. Whether u like it or not. Taking Cap's shield to the back is not Herc's lowest showing.

And, Holy God! Do u really want to argue in this direction, when Logan has had some of the most unrealistic, ridiculous, 'tard-inspired, fan-wanking victories in the history of comics? Really?

At least DD took that win without the writer suddenly upgrading him into the avatar of an abstract, a yada-yada-level mutant, the secret son of an intergalactic emperor, or another of the 100 cookie-cutter methods recent writers use to make the characters more formidable.

Glass jaw or not thats an extreme outlier for DD. He should not be able to beat or defeat him in any setting. That shield toss was akin to a one-shot. And if you feel a redirected shield toss from Cap is good enough to drop Hercules then we have nothing more to discuss.

As far as wolverine is concerned at least it's plausible. Unbreakable skeleton, insane hf, 100 plus years of combat training. As opposed to a 30 something blind ninja with radar sense

Originally posted by riv6672
If you're man enough to make the post, then nut up and accept the responses the post gets.

Oh lol youre mad. Hahaha too cute.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Oh lol youre mad. Hahaha too cute.
Like i said, have some balls, dont try and deflect.
That truck didnt when when you were in 10th grade and it wont work this week.

Originally posted by riv6672
Like i said, have some balls, dont try and deflect.
That truck didnt when when you were in 10th grade and it wont work this week.

Deflect? You're trolling hun. U made a nerf match. Got upset anytime someone doesnt vote for dd. Jumped to horrificuz defense like you are his bitkh or something. Now tryin to tell me to "man up" like that means something on a comic book message board. Get your lame ass outta here. Either contribute or stfu.

Found this at herochat
Wolverine had been pumped full of carbonadium bullets and declared clinically dead but wills himself back even with two bullets still left in him,gets up and kills one guy with a throat chop Wolverine Origins 6-7 flashback. The fact that Wolverine's healing factor was not even lightyears close to being as good then as it is now should not be forgotten

http://s29.postimg.org/nu942n62r/p6_5_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/gsb6gg2gz/p6_6_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/66rb4fw5f/p6_7_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/ny2xiwbk3/p6_8_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/c1bayf9mr/p6_9_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/oces8kcqr/p7_4_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/o0xbvswar/p7_5_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/cd3a1975v/p7_6_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/uh6alw4ub/p7_7_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/h1nva6lqb/p7_8_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/hsglfyo3n/p7_9_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/n55fu3c03/p7_10_copy.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/4quwq3zpf/p7_11_copy.jpg

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Glass jaw or not thats an extreme outlier for DD. He should not be able to beat or defeat him in any setting. That shield toss was akin to a one-shot. And if you feel a redirected shield toss from Cap is good enough to drop Hercules then we have nothing more to discuss.

As far as wolverine is concerned at least it's plausible. Unbreakable skeleton, insane hf, 100 plus years of combat training. As opposed to a 30 something blind ninja with radar sense
Oh, you poor, misled, fellow board member.
I'm afraid that you, yes you, ... Have chosen a MOST DISASTEROUS path.
I will return.
Please, prepare yourself for a most enlightening, yet painful EDUCATION in the field of "Illustrated Heroic Adventure Media".

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
What about Wolverine's strength? Is it reduced to DD's level or stays the same? What about his speed?

How strong, physically, is Wolverine supposed to be? Since the implication seems to be for him to be put on DD's level it would be a reduction, but doesn't DD have strength enough to flip over limo's?

So is Wolverine a good deal above that level of strength?

Wolvie inst strong or stronger to the point where its going to make much of a difference in a fight with DD. Everyone who fights DD, gets their strength nulled for the simple fact that they are ALWAYS hard pressed to land a clean blow. Even the cl100 fighters. Its been prove. If by change it were to happen, it would take quite a few to actually knock DD out. Same goes for Wolvie id guess.

Now the powers that a writers has is uncanny. More times than not, we've seen a toss of Caps shield have some type of effect when hitting cl100 characters. Its nothing new. So to assume that Hercules cant be at least staggered when hitting hit from behind via shield toss (in the dark mind you), is odd to me. Lack of balance in the dark. Cant see footing etc.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Wolvie inst strong or stronger to the point where its going to make much of a difference in a fight with DD. Everyone who fights DD, gets their strength nulled for the simple fact that they are ALWAYS hard pressed to land a clean blow. Even the cl100 fighters. Its been prove. If by change it were to happen, it would take quite a few to actually knock DD out. Same goes for Wolvie id guess.

Now the powers that a writers has is uncanny. More times than not, we've seen a toss of Caps shield have some type of effect when hitting cl100 characters. Its nothing new. So to assume that Hercules cant be at least staggered when hitting hit from behind via shield toss (in the dark mind you), is odd to me. Lack of balance in the dark. Cant see footing etc.

Ill give u that

Originally posted by jrodslam
Wolvie inst strong or stronger to the point where its going to make much of a difference in a fight with DD. Everyone who fights DD, gets their strength nulled for the simple fact that they are ALWAYS hard pressed to land a clean blow. Even the cl100 fighters. Its been prove. If by change it were to happen, it would take quite a few to actually knock DD out. Same goes for Wolvie id guess.

Now the powers that a writers has is uncanny. More times than not, we've seen a toss of Caps shield have some type of effect when hitting cl100 characters. Its nothing new. So to assume that Hercules cant be at least staggered when hitting hit from behind via shield toss (in the dark mind you), is odd to me. Lack of balance in the dark. Cant see footing etc.

So just to be clear you are saying when it comes to physical strength Daredevil is above Wolverine?

DD and Logan should b about the same, or Logan a little stronger due to how his healing factor handles fatigue and stress and muscle tissue damage. That's how i remember it explained somewhere. But no "super strength".

People need to understand how DD has been written all these years. His skills r specifically written so he van compete with super-powered enemies, without having to amp him the way all the other characters keep getting amp'd.

"Amping" is just a writer's cheat 75% of the time. Because it takes intelligence, effort and deep knowledge of a character, in order to write scenarios that put the character in jeapardy, (making the readers actually give a crap), face a more powerful enemy, or an insurmountable problem and then figure out an intetesting, possible way for the charactet to overcome.

What's the easiest thing to write when your character is in a bad way and u can't figure out a smart solution to write?
I know! This or that happens and BANG! The character became more powerful and it all worked out! Problem solved. It's fast and it's easy.

It's one of the biggest comic book quality problems going on. And it has been ruining characters since comic books became "big business". But, DD is one of the few characters that have been mostly untouched by it. Which is why i called it "quality writing". It's just my view on it.

And, i am putting together some scans of Cap's shield toss doing damage to "big guns".
Herc
Hulk
Submariner
Super Adaptoid
Etc

Originally posted by Horrificus
And, i am putting together some scans of Cap's shield toss doing damage to "big guns".
Herc
Hulk
Submariner
Super Adaptoid
Etc

- Ultimus
- Wonder Man
- Crab Voidtry (when Cap was amped by Norn Stones)
- P5 Namor

The list is pretty damn long, actually.

Originally posted by Surtur
So just to be clear you are saying when it comes to physical strength Daredevil is above Wolverine?

Not at all. Im saying that Wolvie normalized, we dont know how much stronger than DD he is/would be. And even if hes "much" stronger, we wouldnt know by how much, nor would it be enough strength to make much of a difference in h2h.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
- Ultimus
- Wonder Man
- Crab Voidtry (when Cap was amped by Norn Stones)
- P5 Namor

The list is pretty damn long, actually.

Sure is.

Continued...

And, what is more "laughable", a character is highly skilled in martial arts and manages to avoid and redirect attacks, or a character suddenly finds out that he is "alien royalty" and a whole new level of power falls in his lap? Suddenly a Super mutant, suddenly find a power-giving artifact, stumble upon godlike tech, etc. And crap like that.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
- Ultimus
- Wonder Man
- Crab Voidtry (when Cap was amped by Norn Stones)
- P5 Namor

The list is pretty damn long, actually. yup.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Not at all. Im saying that Wolvie normalized, we dont know how much stronger than DD he is/would be. And even if hes "much" stronger, we wouldnt know by how much, nor would it be enough strength to make much of a difference in h2h.

Apparently, Wolverine retains his super-strength after losing his healing power...

But Marvel has never been 100% clear about that. Even Claremont himself was undecided.

Now, let's all hug!

Except u carver.
Just kidding. Come here big guy.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Apparently, Wolverine retains his super-strength after losing his healing power...

But Marvel has never been 100% clear about that. Even Claremont himself was undecided.

? Hmm. Id naturally call bs on that, but at the same time, its like always walking around with weights on(dbg fighters). Once the extra weight is removed, they are faster and stronger. Or maybe stronger because they are faster? I wouldnt say Wolvie has super strength though. Lower than old school Cage and Kingpin. Cap level?

Originally posted by jrodslam
? Hmm. Id naturally call bs on that, but at the same time, its like always walking around with weights on(dbg fighters). Once the extra weight is removed, they are faster and stronger. Or maybe stronger because they are faster? I wouldnt say Wolvie has super strength though. Lower than old school Cage and Kingpin. Cap level?

Cap has super-strength

Logan's strength and speed were revealed to have undergone additional mutations over the years in Wolverine: The Best There Is series.

When Scrambler messed up his HF, Logan stated it does not make him any less stronger (which is contradicted in his solo series also written by Claremont, lol). But that perhaps can be explained that it takes time for his extra strength to fade away.

Before his death, Richards has stated that despite losing his healing factor, he does retain his strength and speed... and that if he didn't, he wouldn't be able to move with his adamantium-laced skeleton.

Its been pointed out before that Wolverine goes well past his strength level due to his GF repairing muscle damage as he goes, and the. "Bracing" his adamantium skeleton provides.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Deflect? You're trolling hun. U made a nerf match. Got upset anytime someone doesnt vote for dd. Jumped to horrificuz defense like you are his bitkh or something. Now tryin to tell me to "man up" like that means something on a comic book message board. Get your lame ass outta here. Either contribute or stfu.
Oh lol youre mad. Hahaha too cute.

Aren't they around the same level skillwise?

Originally posted by RadZoa
Aren't they around the same level skillwise?

Handbooks would say no, as Matt is listed only as "5" and Wolverine is maxed out - 7.

But we don't discuss handbooks here much.

We had two giant MA hierarchy threads and in both, Wolverine and DD were in the same tier:

1. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8705068#post8705068

2. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12696096#post12696096

So yeah, they're pretty close.

No, Matt is more skilled.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I just realized I had a hot neighbor across the street that I creepily watched pull an infinite amount of stuff from her suv. I'm going to go chainsaw branches without a shirt after my pump.



Yeah, I think that's what I want my last foreseeable post to be. I was going to save it for when abby inevitably claimed he ran me off the forum with something like "The only person who ran away from you is your father... and that was only to get a running start to punch your mom in the face and coma her again", but I think being creepy is the way to go. I'm glad I didn't waste it on insulting abby and what a giant useless sack of shit he is and how he might actually be dumber than h1. They say abby's dad knocks off an iq point with every hook he lands, so it's not abby's fault he's clinically retarded. His dad just hits too hard and with too good of technique to defend against, especially in the rage of a loved one passing. Abby calls it his loving rage. But I'm glad I didn't use it to take a jab at abby... like he wishes his dad would use instead of hooks all day. I took the high road I feel.

Have fun fellers. If anyone needs anything I'm going to pull a Darth and come on from time to time.

Looks like bran hated you from the start, too vin

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Handbooks would say no, as Matt is listed only as "5" and Wolverine is maxed out - 7.

But we don't discuss handbooks here much.

We had two giant MA hierarchy threads and in both, Wolverine and DD were in the same tier:

1. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8705068#post8705068

2. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12696096#post12696096

So yeah, they're pretty close.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, Matt is more skilled.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Surtur
Doesn't DD have strength enough to flip over limo's?

Don't forget, there were 3 people in that limo. I know Daredevil's strength feats, atleast some of them. Daredevil, while in lying down on the couch, has double kicked Wolverine so hard that he got sent flying across room and got embedded in a wall. (like what Blade did to Drake in Blade Trinity if you need a comparison) On another occasion, he has shoved Sabretooth through a brick wall and a metal pipe behind it, then punched him with similar effects

He has used the bench press weight of a guy as a bo-staff and tossed it across the room (reminded me of a identical classic batman feat), and smilarly lifted Foggy's bench press weights with one hand. He has thrown his billy club with enough force for it to embed into concrete. He has used a sword to slice through others. He has on one occasion, hit panther with a flurry of hits that made him see stars, and on another occasion knocked Spidey the fuck out with a flurry of punches and been consistently able to make Parker feel his punches. He has ripped out a mailbox out of its foundation and dented that on Mister Hyde's head

Originally posted by Surtur
How strong, physically, is Wolverine supposed to be? Since the implication seems to be for him to be put on DD's level it would be a reduction, is Wolverine a good deal above that level of strength?


As for answering your question, yes, Wolverine is stronger than Daredevil with or without the metal skeleton. With adamantium, he has done things considerably above what Daredevil has done imo. His high end feats with adamantium totally piss on even the highest of Daredevil's strength feats

Wolverine's strength feats with adamantium


Before fully recovering from extensive burns due having lava splashed on him, and needing to use his legs to stay afloat thus with only his upper body strength he tossed Black Cat onto a high flying helicopter
On another occasion, he has tossed a white shark onto a ship also while swimming
Logan has broke swords by either punching or grabbing them several times with even way lesser than the effort of breaking a toothpick , with his bare hands.
He has swung around Dragon Man who was stated to be 3 tons by the handbooks
He once punted a guy with enough force to kncok down a steel door
He has broken Razorfist's blade with an elbow
He has overpowered two men pulling his arm from behind while legchoking the guy who had him in a chokehold (for comparison, remember the scene in Riddick 2013 where Batista's character Diaz is pulling Riddick's arms from behind and Bill Nighy's character Viktor choking Scot Speedman's character Micheal in 2003 movie Underworld's climax. Then while this guy is choking Wolverine in a similar manner, two guys are pulling each of Wolverine's arms from behind, using their two hands to pull on Logan's one and logan over-powered them while using his legs to choke the guy who tried to choke him out)
He has lifted six fully grown men over his head with one arm before tossing them through a wooden wall. Even if they all weighed just 60kg Wolverine easily one-armed almost half ton there. I am not even considering all of them 90 kg.
He has once literally kicked a cyborg's head off
On another occasion, he has stabbed his claws through a guy's head and then proceeded to rip it clean off
He has swung around a tree trunk like a baseball bat
He has broken out of Ursa Major's grip and tossed him while in berserker rage
He has once crushed a metal pipe in his hand, and then on another occasion dent a metal dummy's spine with a squeeze of his fingers
He has accidently broken a guy's neck with one punch while holding back
He has tossed a bike with one hand with enough force to break a guy's back
He has ricocheted a dumpster lid like how cap ricochets his shield, with the first hit sending a hand ninja flying into a concrete wall with enough force to crack it
While under mind control, Logan has forced open and crumpled the door's of an elevator, and on another occasion forced open the doors of the Danger Room at maximum setting leaving his finger impressions on them
While weakened from Rogue's touch, punched a charging Rogue (who had both his and Ms Marvel powers then) several feet and through a wall
And like how Cap took of the tail of a helicopter with his shield, Logan replicated that with a wrench
He while being underwater punched a guy with enough force to embed him in conrete and kncok him out, and the guy had a healing factor to boot
He has casually cratered a steel wall with a backhand
He has punched holes in concrete structures on several occasions, once while under several tranqs
He has swam across a rapid while dragging a concert piano and its stand along with him, and those things weigh quite above 1000 pounds. He also climbed a cliff with the piano hanging on him
When the Hellfire Club member Leland used his powers to increase Wolverine's mass to restrain him, Logan who already had been on his knees when Leland used his power on him, exerted enough counterforce to being forced to the ground that the floor beneath him collapsed
He has actually stopped a speeding pick-up truck by just standing in its way, with the vehicle getting crushed on him
He has held up and elevator with people in it with one hand while hanging on a metal rope with the other hand aka no assistance from lower body
While riding at full speed on his bike, he has sent 3 fully grown men and two cars 4 feet up in the air with one swinge

Continued

He has pummeled the bulletproof/grenadeproof supersoldier Nuke's face off with only headbutts. The closest I've seen Nuke ever get that damaged was when a bloodlusted Cap wailed on him with his shield or when he was diced up by lasers which were powerful enough to go right through Luke Cage. And Logan took no damage from that despite being bereft of his healing factor
. And yes its the same psycho guy with the big gun Daredevil fought in the Armageddon arc at the end of Born Again storyline
Logan once took on the class 10 mutant Caliban in a fist fight and Kod him in 3 pages
When Dark Beast made Logan angry, he got an elbow to the face with considerable damage. In the same issue, Logan messed up AOA Wildchild with an elbow too
He has made the Lizard feel his punches, making the creature break his grip on him. Though he couldn't bring him down using solely h2h in the same issue so he had to use his claws
He has made Spider Man and his stronger clone Kaine see stars with one punch, one-shot KTFOd Spider Man with a cheapshot and TKOd Kaine with two free hits
and has been consistently able to make Spiderman feel.his hits woth lovetaps
He has actually ripped out the spine of a Fury robot (the adapting robots from Captain Britain run, yeah them. Crazy high end feat)
He has broken out of the grip of Kaiju sized Lizard monster with no leverag

While his showings without adamantium are not so impressive since he has less apperances without adamantium, they are pretty impressive as well. Bone-claw Wolverine has done things like:



While mind-controlled, held up Vision with one hand by the scruff of his neck, then toss him into the double-backdoors of a van with enough force to knock them both clean off

Swing Moon Knight into concrete with enough force to crack it and KO him in the same move

Toss Black Cat to nail an unsuspecting Human Torce with enough force to KO them both a wreck a water tower, leaving a massive dent on a side and punching a hole in it with the force of the duo crashing into it due to Logan's throw

Dug his fingers into rock and leave finger impressions on/in it, and then stop his and Cyclops fall by digging his fingers into rock. (For comparison, combine Bucky digging his metal arm's fingers into the concrete road in TWS and Del Spooner in I, Robot using his metal arm to break his fall in the movie climax)

Climb a mountain while carrying Cyclops by his mouth (this was when he was feral) and then jump 10 feet while still carrying Cyclops in his mouth

Toss a loaded dumpster (those things can weigh around 1000 lbs empty and around 3000 loaded) across an alley with one hand

Punch a hole in a steel door with enough space for a person to climb through (like the hole Sonny made in a shutter before running into the S. W. A. T team in I,Robot)

While weakened, Logan double kicked a Wendigo (those things are physically larger than Savage Hulk if you want a comparison. Even Hulk said he was bigger) and sent it flying several feet throug some wooden beams

He has caught Sabretooth's punch after being slashed through the throat, and in the same issue Sabes was able to punch through a forcefield designed by Forge (a mutant whose power is to create machines for whatever purpose he desires to) to stop a charging elephant. So the same writer who thought Sabretooth can punch through a forcefield as powerful as that thought Logan could catch his punch as well

Logan has taken on the class 50 Asgardian called Roughouse who is strong enough to collapse buildings, give Spider Man serious trouble (who had to use knockout drugs to defeat him) and survive a unibeam from Extremis Iron Man in a straight up fistfight and knock him out, several times, with or without adamantium

Wolverine has KOd a demonically possed grizzly bear who had become strong enough to utterly crush normal grizzlys with three shots

Two Hand ninjas once grabbed both of Logan's arm with their grappling chains, one chain on each arm pulled by one guy on each. Logan proceded swing around them like yo-yos

He has neck-lifted people and then pushed away cars with his entire lower half crushed

Armed with a silver cross in his hand, Logan has punched right through a werewolf's head



Wolverine doesn't get compared to Cap regularly for nothing. He has earned it in every way in stats, skill, experience, leadership or thinking capability (I know Cap outclasses Logan in the last two but he has proven time and time again he's no slouch in that area)

@HiH

First, i love your latest series of posts. Great reading geared towards both characters.

But i've got a question for you:



Are sure that wasnt Moon Knight? I could swear i recall that scene with MK. Maybe he did it too, though!

Originally posted by riv6672
@HiH

First, i love your latest series of posts. Great reading geared towards both characters.

But i've got a question for you:

Are sure that wasn't Moon Knight? I could swear i recall that scene with MK. Maybe he did it too, though!

I dunno If MK did it. You should ask KM
Here is the full sequence of Daredevil doing it. From DD #179:
http://s22.postimg.org/twlqx04lp/image.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/z9alb4si5/image.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/p0i45b4gd/image.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/taws0w9jh/image.jpg

Heck for the hell of it, here's Batman doing in Batman #264.
http://s9.postimg.org/3r6t2kgpn/RCO016.jpg
http://s9.postimg.org/oclkugyaj/RCO020.jpg

Now for some hilarious trivia. In Batman #264 the plot was Batman trying to rescue a stunt performer, whose stage name was Devil Dayre from kidnappers and the comic title was Death of a Daredevil. Maybe Frank Miller, being a Bats fan, used this feat as a shout-out as well to that issue.

Nice trivia!

AlsoDs feat in those scans is way more impressive!

Next time, where you are putting a colon and upper case D next to each other, put more space between them, like this
: D

Funny even a formatting mistake can be embarrassing at times

I have fat fingers, sue me!

But come on, that bar Bats has is hella light compared to DDs!

Originally posted by riv6672
I have fat fingers, sue me!

But come on, that bar Bats has is hella light compared to DDs!
The one Bats is using is 200 lbs, DD one is 400. Not hella light

Do you even lift bro?

Originally posted by riv6672
Do you even lift bro?
Nope. Never even seen the interior of a gym in my life. But I know that from basic anatomy and physics
Lifting and tossing 200 lbs with one hand ≈ Lifting and tossing 400 lbs with two hands

Oh yeah I'm a geeky nerd

Also, If I remember correctly,Daredevil has kicked off a car door with a double kick and snapped sniper rifle in half with a stomp. As for more Logan feats he has ripped out a car door with an injured hand. I think that's all enough for him without going into the PIS feats

An important point in this debate, is that DD has beaten opponents that have super-strength, speed, etc, without DD getting amp'd or having super powers.

Regardless of what Logan has, DD should take this. Especially, with his slick, greasey fighting style.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Not at all. Im saying that Wolvie normalized, we dont know how much stronger than DD he is/would be. And even if hes "much" stronger, we wouldnt know by how much, nor would it be enough strength to make much of a difference in h2h.

So then Wolverine is stronger then Daredevil.

EDIT: Going by the feats posted it seems like Wolverine is hilariously stronger then Daredevil. I don't see how that level of strength doesn't make a difference.

Originally posted by Horrificus
An important point in this debate, is that DD has beaten opponents that have super-strength, speed, etc, without DD getting amp'd or having super powers.

Regardless of what Logan has, DD should take this. Especially, with his slick, greasey fighting style.

Except Daredevil does have super powers. Even if Marvel says he doesn't have super powers his actions speak louder then words. Just like DC claimed Batgirl has no powers and yet she's dodging bullets. Or how Batman is a "normal" human even though no he's really not.

In other words DC and Marvel tend to vastly push the boundaries of what a "normal" or "peak" human can do. Within that context a person who has no "powers" defeating slightly super powered people isn't as impressive.

^^^And thats fine that you believe that (i do too mostly) but it isnt something that carries weight in a debate, nor should it be.

Yes, but things like "this person who is obviously superhuman but who Marvel claims isn't fights other superhumans" doesn't carry much weight either right?

It's also quite vague and doesn't necessarily tell us who wins.

Originally posted by Surtur
Except Daredevil does have super powers.

Yeah...

I keep saying that, but nobody listens

Meh, i've never been confused by it.

I mean it basically comes down to..do you believe what you are told or what you see? When you see a dude flipping over limo's and then someone says "totally normal"...it's problematic.

It's not something to be confused over, but "look at the stuff he does without powers" isn't exactly a good argument to use. At least not in this specific case.

Given Wolverine's apparent strength and his unbreakable skeleton and his healing factor it seems to me that the only chance Daredevil has is if he can land hit after hit onto Wolverine without ever getting tagged even once. Given what has been said about Wolverine's speed in other threats it doesn't seem realistic to me to expect Daredevil to never get tagged.

Originally posted by Surtur
So then Wolverine is stronger then Daredevil.

EDIT: Going by the feats posted it seems like Wolverine is hilariously stronger then Daredevil. I don't see how that level of strength doesn't make a difference.

I never said Wolvie wasnt stronger than DD.

And Spider-Man is hilariously stronger than Wolvie, yet hes stated on panel as well as DD that he cant land a solid blow on DD. Thus reducing his strengths effectiveness.

Originally posted by Surtur
I mean it basically comes down to..do you believe what you are told or what you see? When you see a dude flipping over limo's and then someone says "totally normal"...it's problematic.

It's not something to be confused over, but "look at the stuff he does without powers" isn't exactly a good argument to use. At least not in this specific case.

Given Wolverine's apparent strength and his unbreakable skeleton and his healing factor it seems to me that the only chance Daredevil has is if he can land hit after hit onto Wolverine without ever getting tagged even once. Given what has been said about Wolverine's speed in other threats it doesn't seem realistic to me to expect Daredevil to never get tagged.
Wait what? That last isnt this thread at all.

Originally posted by Surtur
So then Wolverine is stronger then Daredevil.

EDIT: Going by the feats posted it seems like Wolverine is hilariously stronger then Daredevil. I don't see how that level of strength doesn't make a difference.

Just asking an opinion. How high is adamantium Wolverine's strength level looking at his highest feats (without going into knocking out Firelord-esque feats)

Holding up an elevator with one hand using solely upper body strength
Kicking a cyborg's head off
Swinging around a tree trunk like a baseball bat
Accidently breakina guy's neck with one punch while holding back
Tossing a bike with one hand with enough force to break a guy's back
Ripping a guy's head clean off
Exerted enough force to collapsed the floor beneath him
Stopping a speeding pick-up truck by just standing in its way, with the vehicle getting crushed on him
While riding at full speed on his bike, with the added momentum sending 3 fully grown men and two cars 4 feet up in the air with one swing
Pummeling the bulletproof/grenadeproof supersoldier Nuke's face off with only headbutts with zero damage to himself
Taking on the class 10 mutant Caliban in a fist fight and Koing him in 3 pages
Almost killing Dark Beast and flash koing AOA Wildchild with an elbow
Making Lizard feel his punches
One-shotting Spider Man with a cheapshot and TKOing Kaine with two free hits and being consistently able to make Spider-Man feel his hits with love taps
Breaking out of the grip of a Kaiju-sized Lizard monster with no leverage

^^^Nice.
going to stand by what i've seen pointed out (that i pointed out earlier), that many (not all of course) of his strength feats were accomplished due to HF near instant muscle repair and adamantium skeleton bracing. Major advantages.

He's got strength feats with out those two factors too. And I mentioned those were with adamantium. I was just asking how high were they and at what level

I admitted that.

Edit

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Handbooks would say no, as Matt is listed only as "5" and Wolverine is maxed out - 7.

But we don't discuss handbooks here much.

We had two giant MA hierarchy threads and in both, Wolverine and DD were in the same tier:

1. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8705068#post8705068

2. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12696096#post12696096

So yeah, they're pretty close. Power grid is a bit wonky. IIRC Punisher was listed as a rank 5-6 mainly because he had firearm training.