Novel Vitiate runs the gauntlet

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The Ellimist
IMHO he's ridiculously overrated.

1. Force
2. All-out

Full rest/recovery, victor based on wins/10, neutral ground.

Warm-up/trash: Bane, Zannah and Kas'im
Warm-up/trash: General Grievous
1. Darth Malgus
2. Count Dooku
3. Exar Kun
4. Darth Vader
5. Revan 3.0
6. Darth Krayt
7. Vader and Starkiller
8. Talzin
9. Darth Caedus
10. UnuThul
11. Darth Plagueis
12. Yoda
13. Luke Skywalker

Emperordmb
7

carthage
6-7

The Ellimist
He might stop at Vader, tbh.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nah.

The Ellimist
Revan, Scourge and Meetra were a threat to him on a DS nexus. Revan thought the latter two would really contribute to the feat.

In comparison, Palpatine would have laughed at Scourge and Meetra and annihilated them like he killed the B-team.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except you're coming to the conclusion that Palpatine would annihilate them based on feats. Based on feats, they're insects to Novel Vitiate as well. Revan himself based on his past feats is easily Vader tier, (like slaughtering through the SF and defeating Malak long before recovering half his knowledge of the force, easily reflecting Nyriss's lightning that could instantaneously ash her even when putting up a barrier, etc) and he was no match for Vitiate.

The Ellimist
Yeah but that's not what actually happened. What actually happened was that the trio went face to face with Vitiate, Meetra would've killed him were she a little more ruthless with her throwing motion, and ultimately Scourge concludes that the Emperor would probably win, but it was hardly certain.

Those three would have been crushed by Palpatine.

I guess that doesn't guarantee that they'd lose to Vader, but no u.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but that's not what actually happened. What actually happened was that the trio went face to face with Vitiate, Meetra would've killed him were she a little more ruthless with her throwing motion, and ultimately Scourge concludes that the Emperor would probably win, but it was hardly certain.

Those three would have been crushed by Palpatine.

I guess that doesn't guarantee that they'd lose to Vader, but no u.

When did I say something happened? Based on their respective feats, Meetra and Scourge are literally insects compared to Sheev and Novel Vitiate. That they're considered a threat to Vitiate, (alongside focking Revan, who Meetra shares an immense force bond with) doesn't preclude being close to Sidious, even at this point. smile

No, they really wouldn't. Revan is a Vader class force user, (as I explained in the aforementioned post) and Vitiate oneshotted him once he brought his full power to bear. Not sure how Vader has a shot. smile

Vitiate breaks his mind with TP. smile

The Ellimist
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
When did I say something happened? Based on their respective feats, Meetra and Scourge are literally insects compared to Sheev and Novel Vitiate.

How are they insects compared to novel Vitiate? Literally the most impressive thing novel Vitiate had done to that point without prep was killing his no-name sith father.



Revan Reborn hadn't really done anything to put him on Vader's level.



Which took time, and a nexus. Had the room been smaller, or Revan started running towards him a little sooner, or the others not lagged his entrance, Vitiate might not have gotten the time.



Like he broke Meetra and Scourge's?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
How are they insects compared to novel Vitiate? Literally the most impressive thing novel Vitiate had done to that point without prep was killing his no-name sith father.



Revan Reborn hadn't really done anything to put him on Vader's level.



Which took time, and a nexus. Had the room been smaller, or Revan started running towards him a little sooner, or the others not lagged his entrance, Vitiate might not have gotten the time.



Like he broke Meetra and Scourge's?

He oneshotted Revan. And Revan is so far above Meetra and Scourge that it's not even worth discussing.

Given that you like to powerscale, and I know you do, Revan defeated SF Malak, (who, contrary to popular belief, was extremely powerful,) far before reaching his prime. Also, easily blocking Nyriss's lightning storm is Vader level tbh.

There really isnt any room for debate. Revan himself states twice that he can't stand up to The Emperor. No mention of the nexus being a relevant factor in that evaluation. Revan is a Vader level force user, and simply isn't up to snuff with Vitiate. And in a force only matchup, Vitiate will definitely have time to unleash his greatest power.

You mean the person who stated an immensely weakened Vitiate would dominate his will 300 years later?

Tondemonai
7 for both.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And Revan is so far above Meetra and Scourge that it's not even worth discussing.


Revan still thought they would help against Vitiate, which they did. They would be insects next to Palpatine, given that Sidious could one-shot the B-team and ragdoll Maul + Savage.



SF Malak hasn't really done anything. Nyriss's lightning is impressive but I think you're overrating it - turning people to ash is kind of low on the totem pole compared to what the likes of Vader have done (.ie composite Vader has brought down AT-ATs and TK'd fleeing starfighters from kilometer ranges).



I'm not saying that Revan > Vitiate, I'm just pointing out that the fight was a lot closer than you're letting on. He knocked Vitiate on his ass and only really lost because the room was big. Vader has better speed feats than Revan and could've TK'd Vitiate to him when he got knocked on his ass.



It doesn't have to be made explicit to factor into the evaluation - Revan's prior experience with Vitiate was on a nexus, now he's facing him on a nexus - the nexus is inextricably linked to his assessment.

But there's no nexus here. Even the dark energies of Vjun, which IIRC isn't as strong as Dromund, made Dooku a threat to Yoda. That's a pretty big leap in power.



Vader isn't beating him in a Force battle, not with his life support system. But he has a shot at forcing a melee in the all-out.



But he didn't...he resisted him for 300 years.

S_W_LeGenD
How is Vitiate (as of Revan) overrated? He is really powerful at that time.

He killed 9 members of the Dark Council some hours before his confrontation with Revan. When the latter found out about this, he found it difficult to digest for a while. However, Revan had to try...

Novel also reveals that Vitiate was more likely to defeat Revan and his allies then the other way round.

I'd say he will approach Luke Skywalker.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
really powerful at that time.

What is it with you and vague, meaningless adjectives? You took the "Revan is the heart of the Force!" wanker persona and became its living meme.



With prep, on a nexus, using a technique he conveniently never replicates when surprised by powerful opponents.



I know, but that still puts him far below Palpatine.



laughing He potentially loses from 4-6, probably dies at 7, stops at 8.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What is it with you and vague, meaningless adjectives? You took the "Revan is the heart of the Force!" wanker persona and became its living meme.
Adjectives?

Vitiate had been growing in power throughout his span of existence up to the point of SWTOR original stories.

When Revan came, Vitiate was 1000 years old. Vitiate was extremely powerful during this time; literally described as almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side during this time in another source.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
With prep, on a nexus, using a technique he conveniently never replicates when surprised by powerful opponents.
Do you have evidence to support your assumptions?

Vitiate doesn't needs any kind of preparation to defeat some opponents in combat situations; this was just Revan's point-of-view to justify his failures.

Moreover, Vitiate's confrontation with 9 members of the Dark Council have not been documented either. Lord Scourge disclosed this news to Revan, hinting that Vitiate killed them all.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I know, but that still puts him far below Palpatine.
Revan isn't far below Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
laughing He potentially loses from 4-6, probably dies at 7, stops at 8.
Right. Your jokes are not even funny.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Adjectives?

Vitiate had been growing in power throughout his span of existence up to the point of SWTOR original stories.

When Revan came, Vitiate was 1000 years old. Vitiate was extremely powerful during this time; literally described as "almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side" during this time in another source.


This is...literally what I just called you out for doing. Do you even understand what you were quoting?



I don't need to provide evidence for a negative - .ie, that his mysterious blue flash is conveniently never used in a non-prepped combative scenario, or ever again for that matter.



laughing

Right, because everyone remembers that time when Revan enslaved an entire population to his will, mused about collapsing a multi-kilometer fortress (the imperial palace) with his mind, took down three elite Jedi masters in 8 seconds, Force choked Dooku from across the galaxy, and Force lightning'd Yoda. Revan at this point has defeated Darth Malak and killed Nyriss.



You're just mad that Vitiate was threatened by Revan and two fodder, while Palpatine clowned the B-team in three seconds and, according to the novelization, would have dispatched Windu shortly after had it not been for vaapad.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is...literally what I just called you out for doing. Do you even understand what you were quoting?
I was responding to this:

Originally posted by The Ellimist
IMHO he's ridiculously overrated.

Tell me! How am I wrong?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't need to provide evidence for a negative - .ie, that his mysterious blue flash is conveniently never used in a non-prepped combative scenario, or ever again for that matter.
You are confusing this confrontation with another.

Vitiate is known to have purged two rebellious Dark Councils during his tenure as the Emperor of the ancient Sith Empire. One such event took place during the era of Darth Lokess and another such event took place during the era of Revan.

It seems like you have not done your homework.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
laughing

Right, because everyone remembers that time when Revan enslaved an entire population to his will, mused about collapsing a multi-kilometer fortress (the imperial palace) with his mind, took down three elite Jedi masters in 8 seconds, Force choked Dooku from across the galaxy, and Force lightning'd Yoda. Revan at this point has defeated Darth Malak and killed Nyriss.
Which population had Palpatine enslaved to his will? Byss? They were already his devoted followers.

Also, musing now implies credibility? Count Dooku, at some point, felt that he had become more powerful then Yoda.

Collapsing a structure of that size would definitely take more then a mere thought.

--

Revan had become the most powerful Jedi in galactic history and defeated countless opponents in combat situations including Mandalore the Ultimate (the strongest Mandalore of the era), Yusanis (greatest Echani warrior), Calo Nord (most feared Bounty Hunter), Darth Bandon, the duo of Yuthura Ban and powerful Uthar Wynn, Bastilla Shan (fallen), Darth Malak and Darth Nyriss.

On the Star Forge, Revan came across dozens of opponents at a time and still managed to cut a swath through the defenses of the enormous factory. This is one of the greatest consistently combat-focused accomplishments in history.

I am sure that Revan was capable of immense destruction with his powers. However, this was not his way. In the novel, we find Revan being very calculative in his moves.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're just mad that Vitiate was threatened by Revan and two fodder, while Palpatine clowned the B-team in three seconds and, according to the novelization, would have dispatched Windu shortly after had it not been for vaapad.
Revan would threaten anyone.

Two fodder? Since when were Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik fodder?

Palpatine managed to blitz 3 Jedi Masters using a Lightsaber. How is cutting down someone with a Lightsaber comparable to defeating the same individual with Force powers?

Palpatine didn't overwhelm that Strike Team with his Force powers. You don't have a point.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I was responding to this:



Tell me! How am I wrong?


No, you were responding to the part of my quote where I called you out on wanking over fluffy adjectives to the point of sounding like a walking parody - and you responded by wanking to more meaningless adjectives. It's like you don't register things that people make as arguments.



They were both one-off mysterious events that are never replicated whenever Vitiate is not prepared or he's facing characters with feats.

If you actually think Vitiate could pull this against Vader or Palpatine, when didn't he use it to insta-kill Scourge and Meetra?




That doesn't change the fact that he enslaved and drew energy from them, .ie, a far greater feat than anything Revan's done.



There's no reason to believe that Sidious is lying to himself, when was already in the process of creating Force storms.



To Vitiate, probably. Not to Palpatine.

Face it; Palpatine has Revan outclassed in pretty much every category. He has better lightsaber feats, better speed feats, better destructive feats, better sorcery feats and better TP feats. There's just no way Revan is lasting more than 15 seconds against him by feats, accolades, powerscaling, or anything, really.



So were the Jedi Palpatine one-shotted.



laughing laughing laughing

You think these victories put him on Palpatine's level?

If anything, the fact that his fight against non-Force sensitive Mandalore was even a challenge is a mark against him.



Ooohh, he faced dozens of opponents at a time! ROFLAMO - Sidious when confronted with an attempted coup kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning.



You can speculate about what he could do all you want, but the reality is that he has never demonstrated anything to put him on the level of Palpatine.



Yeah, totally, because he took on "dozens of opponents at a time." roll eyes (sarcastic)



Against Palpatine they certainly are. Scourge was terrified of facing a random dark council member. Everyone on the Jedi High Council outside of Yoda and Windu wouldn't last more than 20 seconds against Sidious.



Why can't he use a lightsaber here?



He ragdolled and pinned Maul and Oppress to the wall without any apparent effort. The most powerful person Vitiate ragdolled was his father.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, you were responding to the part of my quote where I called you out on wanking over fluffy adjectives to the point of sounding like a walking parody - and you responded by wanking to more meaningless adjectives. It's like you don't register things that people make as arguments.
Damn! You are telling me that I don't maintain track of my arguments?

My original response:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How is Vitiate (as of Revan) overrated? He is really powerful at that time.

He killed 9 members of the Dark Council some hours before his confrontation with Revan. When the latter found out about this, he found it difficult to digest for a while. However, Revan had to try...

Novel also reveals that Vitiate was more likely to defeat Revan and his allies then the other way round.

I'd say he will approach Luke Skywalker.

was intended for your original statement:

Originally posted by The Ellimist
IMHO he's ridiculously overrated.

In my original post; I have pointed out a fact that Vitiate was immensely powerful during the era of Revan. To lend credibility to this assertion, I provided some reasons (additional facts) below it. No rocket-science here.

However, your response was to break my argument into different bits and respond to each bit separately; unfortunately, you lost track of my argument in this manner and now you are accusing me of sticking to adjectives and not following my own argument?

My advice to you is that you should read the entire response first and then respond to it. In this manner, you can avoid confusion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They were both one-off mysterious events that are never replicated whenever Vitiate is not prepared or he's facing characters with feats.

If you actually think Vitiate could pull this against Vader or Palpatine, when didn't he use it to insta-kill Scourge and Meetra?
Again! What kind of 'preparation' was involved in those mysterious developments? Did Vitiate hire some Force-users to use Battle Meditation to fuel his power during those moments? You need to prove these assertions, if you are making them in the first place (basic debating rule, my friend).

Look at this showing: https://i.imgur.com/15dEtT9.webm

Doesn't it tells you something?

Those Knights of Zakuul had successfully cornered the Outlander and his allies including powerful Lana Beniko and Senya; those Knights might have slaughtered the entire group but Valkorion intervened.

Characters having some feats are not necessarily special. Some are given more attention then the others for storytelling purpose because developers do not have unlimited time and resources at their disposal to explore each and every character out there. Also, read my analogy before:

ANALOGY: Jedi Master Orgus Din had impressive Force abilities and considerable experience in combat but he eventually met his match in Darth Angral. The latter Sith wasn't a frontline warrior and doesn't have (individualistic) showings on par with the Jedi Master in question but we witness him killing Din on-screen.

My point is that you have to focus on more then some feats to assess the power of a character. Every bit of information/assessing tactic is useful such as accolades, power-scaling, feats and others.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't change the fact that he enslaved and drew energy from them, .ie, a far greater feat than anything Revan's done.
Siphoning life-force of willing hosts is much easier then doing the same with unwilling hosts.

Revan (Reborn) wasn't a Sith Lord; he had ample knowledge of Force Drain powers but he used them only in dire situations but not to harm others. He was certainly capable of grand showings nonetheless:

Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence.

From Chronicles of the Old Republic

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's no reason to believe that Sidious is lying to himself, when was already in the process of creating Force storms.
Palpatine is a Sith; lying and manipulating others is part of his nature.

Anyways, I do not doubt Palpatine's ability to pull it off but I maintain my point-of-view that it would take more then a mere thought. Affecting the external environment with telekinetic powers is different from affecting the external environment with some other power. Palpatine may find it much easier to destroy a building with a Force Storm then with his telekinetic powers.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
To Vitiate, probably. Not to Palpatine.
See above.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Face it; Palpatine has Revan outclassed in pretty much every category. He has better lightsaber feats, better speed feats, better destructive feats, better sorcery feats and better TP feats. There's just no way Revan is lasting more than 15 seconds against him by feats, accolades, powerscaling, or anything, really.
Palpatine > Revan (point-of-view) is not at dispute here. However, underestimating Revan is not wise either.

I'd say that Revan will challenge Palpatine as much as Yoda could, if not better. Revan have his own set of talents that grant him advantage in combat situations such as his mindset, ability to wield both Light and Dark Sides, formidable defensive abilities and esoteric powers such as Teleportation.

Revan doesn't needs to match Palpatine pound-for-pound in the context of feats to challenge him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So were the Jedi Palpatine one-shotted.
One-shotting is not the right choice of term here! Blitzing is. A lightsaber would kill any humaniod with a single well-executed hit.

And those Jedi Masters weren't peers of Revan in raw power; they were renowned for their dueling skills, not their strength in the Force. Mace Windu was a legitimate powerhouse however and he handled Palpatine just fine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
laughing laughing laughing

You think these victories put him on Palpatine's level?

If anything, the fact that his fight against non-Force sensitive Mandalore was even a challenge is a mark against him.
One-shotting a powerful member of the Dark Council is definitely Palpatine-tier showing.

As for your remark regarding non-Force sensitive; you think that non-Force sensitive beings are mooks and cannot challenge Force-users?

Watch this:

SoSayqv1TVI

Specially the scene where Cad Bane and Obi-Wan fight ; here is a glimpse:

http://i63.tinypic.com/mwp99l.png

Underestimating non-Force sensitive beings is literally foolish. They form the backbone of the strength that defines an Empire and some of them are formidable enough to challenge even the most powerful Jedi.

Or you think that Obi-Wan was weakling?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ooohh, he faced dozens of opponents at a time! ROFLAMO - Sidious when confronted with an attempted coup kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning.
Great for him.

Revan, during the events of Jedi Civil War, was in amnesic state and did not properly understand the depths of his powers at that time. CONTEXT, my friend.

Nonetheless! On the Star Forge; Revan destroyed an entire army of Star Forge battledroids initially (an accomplishment that impressed Darth Malak because these droids were specially designed to confront and defeat Force-users in general) and then cut a swath through the stationed Imperial forces comprising of elite troops and powerful Dark Jedi (dozens of them at times) to advance further. In the end, he defeated a well-prepared Darth Malak who had been drawing on the life-force of scores of Jedi captives to fuel his own to make sure that he will not tire out. Demonstrating such a consistent combat-prowess during amnesic state is not something to sneeze it; it is an accomplishment that only the most powerful Jedi in the galactic history was capable of.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You can speculate about what he could do all you want, but the reality is that he has never demonstrated anything to put him on the level of Palpatine.
Really?

1. Projecting the Dark Side power of a nexus planet towards the Jedi stationed on the fleets in the space above to influence them?

2. Excellent combat performance on the Star Forge while being in amnesic state?

3. Easily defeating powerful Sith Lords in confrontations?

4. Cheating death through sheer force of will?

You are wrong.

It is true that we cannot compare Revan and Palpatine in each and every action and/or discipline, but we can compare them in certain areas (like I have done above) to draw conclusions from.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, totally, because he took on "dozens of opponents at a time." roll eyes (sarcastic)
Revan defeated powerful Sith just as easily as Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Against Palpatine they certainly are. Scourge was terrified of facing a random dark council member. Everyone on the Jedi High Council outside of Yoda and Windu wouldn't last more than 20 seconds against Sidious.
Individually? Yes.
As members of a Strike Team? No.

People tend to fear the unknown. Lord Scourge was in the process of discovering his talents and honing them during the events of Revan; he did not felt prepared for contending with threats as significant as members of the Dark Council at that time. However, he had been improving and learning from his experiences. His victory over Darth Xedrix emboldened him to take steps that he wouldn't otherwise.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why can't he use a lightsaber here?
He can! But this is not my point.

You are promoting Palpatine's blitzing accomplishment over some Jedi Masters as indication of his raw power. It is not.

Excellent martial skills are meaningless for the Jedi if they don't have great strength to complement them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He ragdolled and pinned Maul and Oppress to the wall without any apparent effort. The most powerful person Vitiate ragdolled was his father.
Vitiate sent Revan packing across the arena with a Force-push (initially) and utterly disintegrated T3-M4 with a similar expression (later on).

Dominating Revan like that is not easy. Lesser Force-users could not even budge Revan from his position.

Syndicate
7.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Damn! You are telling me that I don't maintain track of my arguments?

My original response:



was intended for your original statement:



In my original post; I have pointed out a fact that Vitiate was immensely powerful during the era of Revan. To lend credibility to this assertion, I provided some reasons (additional facts) below it. No rocket-science here.

However, your response was to break my argument into different bits and respond to each bit separately; unfortunately, you lost track of my argument in this manner and now you are accusing me of sticking to adjectives and not following my own argument?

My advice to you is that you should read the entire response first and then respond to it. In this manner, you can avoid confusion.



What the f*ck are you talking about? Yes, I broke your argument into segments, as is typical - the specific segment you were quoting was "What is it with you and vague, meaningless adjectives? You took the "Revan is the heart of the Force!" wanker persona and became its living meme.". Your reply not only fails to grasp what I was critiquing you on, but literally does exactly it!

But quibbling aside, the point that I've been trying to get to your skull is that you prove absolutely nothing by pointing out that some sources call Vitiate "immensely powerful" or "nearly unbeatable" or "super f*cking badass". These are not meaningful statements beyond vaguely establishing that he's substantially stronger than your average Sith Lord, which could put him anywhere from Ventress to Palpatine. You need to give more detailed and quantitative analysis than that.



Your consistently arrogant language actually makes me cringe, like watching those horrible American Idol hopefuls who don't realize how much they suck. The observation that matters is that Vitiate NEVER uses that technique against any of the strike teams he faces, but instead only against dark councils when he knows they're coming to his own fortress, and conveniently off-screen. Whether it's because he can't, needs prep, or is just an idiot, I don't care - it means that you have no grounds to just assert that he's going to use them against X, Y, or Z opponents because you say so.



Your distinction between willing and unwilling hosts is irrelevant; we're comparing Palpatine to Revan, not Valkorion. Revan has not demonstrated the ability to manipulate his environment on a planetary scale that Palpatine (or Valkorion) has, nor has he ever dominated large groups of opponents in close quarters simultaneously to the extent that Palpatine dominated the B-team or even the 50 stormtroopers sent against him, nor has he shown the same prowess in telekinesis, lightning, accolades or anything really.

All of your points thus far have been purely defensive; you haven't given us anything to put Revan on Palpatine's level, except for claiming that he's "immensely powerful".



...

He was talking to himself. Palpatine is actually surprisingly realistic in assessing his own abilities; he recognizes Plagueis, Yoda, Talzin and Luke as realistic threats and understands that pre-injuries Vader could surpass him in power. There's no indication that he is delusional about his abilities in telekinesis.

Either way, he's clearly vastly more powerful than Vader or Starkiller, both of whom can redirect falling star destroyers and destroy frigates with the Force. Revan has done absolutely nothing to put himself on Palpatine's level.



Sure, but it still puts him far above Revan, which is the point.



I'm not underestimating him, I'm just pointing out that he is no match for the Emperor, which is clearly true given that Palpatine outstrips him in every meaningful category by literally orders of magnitude in terms of what he has been able to do.



laughing ROFLAMO!

You have yet to produce a single feat that puts Revan within even an order of magnitude of ability in telekinesis, speed, dueling, lightning, or anything, really. Trying to put him on Yoda's level is a laughable leap you made to make sure Revan's dick is hard and juicy during your next session.



He doesn't have teleportation as of the novel, and Palpatine also studied the Force "in all its guises", and mastered "nearly every known power". Regardless, even if Revan did have some sort of knowledge advantage over perhaps the most learned Force user in galactic history, it matters very little when the disparity in raw power is so vast.



He needs to come within an order of magnitude in something, and you have provided nothing. He isn't as powerful, he isn't as fast, he isn't as learned, he certainly doesn't have the same skills with a blade. The only area where I would give Revan the potential edge is in tactical acumen, and even that has primarily been demonstrated in controlling large fleets and armies, and not in one vs. one combat.



The point is that it's another feat that Revan cannot match.



Actually the novel makes it clear that Windu would've died really quickly had he not sunk into vaapad. And Windu at base is comparable to or greater than Dooku, one of the most impressive duelists to ever live. What exactly has Revan done with a blade that makes you think he's on Sidious's level again?



Um...no?

Where is your evidence that Nyriss was particularly powerful compared to other dark council members? Because those three Jedi that Palpatine owned were substantially stronger than your average council member given their accolades. Don't forget about Maul and Oppress, who Palpatine easily ragdolled and could've subsequently killed easily - both of them are far superior to "typical" council members like Ki-adi Mundi. Even the likes of Obi Wan can be dispatched quickly by Dooku, let alone Palpatine.

Palpatine also was dominating and would've easily killed pre-vaapad Windu, who is obviously far stronger than Nyriss. So no, killing someone like Nyriss isn't very impressive just because she's on the council.

BTW, it's not even clear that Revan could just one-shot Nyriss in a fair fight; he caught her charged attack and threw it back at her.

The Ellimist
(cont)




Obi-Wan is a weakling compared to Palpatine. As is Revan. That's the whole point.



Dude, it was your feat. If it was a weak feat, why did you even bring it up?

You still haven't come up with a single demonstration of Revan's power that puts him on Palpatine's level. You've tried to dazzle me with his having killed "dozens" of enemies (:laughsmile and a non-Force sensitive soldier, or that he's "immensely powerful". You have not shown me that he can destroy a multi-kilometer fortress with a thought or tear the surface off of planets. You have absolutely nothing.






How does this put him on Palpatine's level?



Not on Palpatine's level. Palpatine "influenced" the entire Jedi Order simultaneously. More specifically he unbalanced the Force itself by meditating, and was such a disturbance by his very existence that his very death restored balance to it and created a nexus above Endor.



I love your awkward use of meaningless adjectives - fighting through the Star Forge is a demonstration of a threshold level of ability to deflect blaster bolts and great stamina - it doesn't give us info with which to compare his individual combative abilities with Palpatine's.

Ragdolling Maul and Oppress at the same time and making Windu utterly helpless? That's something.

Or what about when he easily defeated a Luke Skywalker who could bring down AT-ATs? Has Revan ever brought down a massive bipedal four legged walker before?



laughing You actually think this puts him on Palpatine's level?



What does this have to do with combat? His "will" won't save him from decapitation.



The problem with your "analysis" is that you never bother to compare or quantify things. Being able to defeat "powerful" Sith Lords and beat Mandalore in hand to hand are impressive feats, but they don't meaningfully compare with Palpatine's. Darth Sidious has demonstrated the ability to literally dominate large numbers of upper-tier combatants, affect whole planetary surfaces and populations, unbalance the Force itself, and, well, is explicitly the most powerful sith lord in galactic history. I don't care that Revan can run through "dozens of opponents". Can you actually make meaningful arguments instead of just throwing out random feats and failing to explain why they are impressive or relevant?

NewGuy01
Because she held her seat for two decades, whereas the average DC seat is only held for a few months or years.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because she held her seat for two decades, whereas the average DC seat is only held for a few months or years.

OK, this probably signals cunning as much as it does raw Force power, but it's better than nothing. It still doesn't mean much when Palpatine can make Dooku, considered to be the greatest student Yoda has ever had in his 800 years of instructing padawans during the Golden Age of the Jedi, tremble in his boots.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan defeated powerful Sith just as easily as Palpatine.


...no, he didn't. We don't know how his fight with Malak goes except that it lasted a long time. He one-shots Nyriss (but using an attack she took a lot of time charging) - Palpatine essentially one-shots Maul and Savage at the same time via telekinesis. Nyriss has never demonstrated feats on the level of Maul.



Depends on how large the strike team is. The B-team lasted eight seconds or so against Palpatine.

Face it; Revan is nothing compared to Darth Sidious. It's a little ludicrous that you continue to insist otherwise by vaguely stating that he can kill "powerful" sith and "dozens' of opponents.



Good for him. He's still described as being a top student at his academy, but hardly a prodigy on the level of, say, Mace Windu, who was basically nothing next to Palpatine before he sunk into vaapad.



Martial skills incorporate Force abilities in their evaluation, it's not like Obi Wan was consciously evaluating Agen Kolar and co. on their pure technical knowledge independent of how well they reacted to attacks when he put them among the greatest swordsmen the order had ever produced.

And yes, it's an indication of a combination of his raw power (in augmenting his speed) and technical skill, both of which are far beyond Revan's (or Vitiate's), which is the point.

Now what has Revan done to compare? Beat a bunch of battle droids? Win a fistfight against a non-Force sensitive? laughing



Good for him. Then he fails in trying to overpower him with lightning and has to resort to using a charged attack to defeat him.



laughing What is it with you and wasting space with irrelevant feats? You think destroying T3-M4 is supposed to put him on Palpatine's level or something?



It's not easy but it doesn't compare to dominating Windu and three celebrated Jedi masters at the same time.

AncientPower
Anybody from 3-6 has a good chance of beating him in a neutral setting without prep.

Emperordmb
Yeah I didn't notice the first warm-up round, stops there.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah I didn't notice the first warm-up round, stops there.

Nice, I concur.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What the f*ck are you talking about? Yes, I broke your argument into segments, as is typical - the specific segment you were quoting was "What is it with you and vague, meaningless adjectives? You took the "Revan is the heart of the Force!" wanker persona and became its living meme.". Your reply not only fails to grasp what I was critiquing you on, but literally does exactly it!

But quibbling aside, the point that I've been trying to get to your skull is that you prove absolutely nothing by pointing out that some sources call Vitiate "immensely powerful" or "nearly unbeatable" or "super f*cking badass". These are not meaningful statements beyond vaguely establishing that he's substantially stronger than your average Sith Lord, which could put him anywhere from Ventress to Palpatine. You need to give more detailed and quantitative analysis than that.
Right...

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Enigmatic and supremely powerful, the Emperor directs his domain from the shadows and manipulates the galaxy to carry out his will.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Clear enough?

Now attempt to power-scale keeping in mind the original Exiles (who are easily Darth Vader level and/or superior), Tulak Hord, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Revan and Darth Nihilus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your consistently arrogant language actually makes me cringe, like watching those horrible American Idol hopefuls who don't realize how much they suck. The observation that matters is that Vitiate NEVER uses that technique against any of the strike teams he faces, but instead only against dark councils when he knows they're coming to his own fortress, and conveniently off-screen. Whether it's because he can't, needs prep, or is just an idiot, I don't care - it means that you have no grounds to just assert that he's going to use them against X, Y, or Z opponents because you say so.
Valkorion did not choke anybody on-screen either. As per your logic, he cannot do it.

The offensive technique (in question) have not been identified so far so we don't know whether it was used again or not. It killed 11 members of the Dark Council on the spot but Darth Lokess somehow survived (she was knocked unconscious though), only to be tortured to death later-on. It could be this kind of attack: https://imgur.com/K3jDQRO

It is foolish to dismiss a feat that is not depicted on-screen.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your distinction between willing and unwilling hosts is irrelevant; we're comparing Palpatine to Revan, not Valkorion. Revan has not demonstrated the ability to manipulate his environment on a planetary scale that Palpatine (or Valkorion) has,
Here:

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan (Meetra Surik's perspective)

"Each could dominate worlds... The Emperor sought to pry the Foundry's location from the Jedi's mind. But for centuries he resisted."

From Star Wars: The Old Republic (Darth Malgus's perspective)

"As a Jedi, Revan was a warrior who slaughtered armies. As a Sith, Revan was a teacher who trained a thousand dark apprentices."

From Star Wars: The Old Republic (Dzoun's perspective)

"But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop."

"Revan."

From Star Wars: The Old Republic (Conversation between Darth Marr and the Emperor's Wrath)

Good enough?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
nor has he ever dominated large groups of opponents in close quarters simultaneously to the extent that Palpatine dominated the B-team or even the 50 stormtroopers sent against him, nor has he shown the same prowess in telekinesis, lightning, accolades or anything really.

All of your points thus far have been purely defensive; you haven't given us anything to put Revan on Palpatine's level, except for claiming that he's "immensely powerful".
Really?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4595313-2577311994-ywMG6.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was talking to himself. Palpatine is actually surprisingly realistic in assessing his own abilities; he recognizes Plagueis, Yoda, Talzin and Luke as realistic threats and understands that pre-injuries Vader could surpass him in power. There's no indication that he is delusional about his abilities in telekinesis.

Either way, he's clearly vastly more powerful than Vader or Starkiller, both of whom can redirect falling star destroyers and destroy frigates with the Force. Revan has done absolutely nothing to put himself on Palpatine's level.
One Force-user (I don't recall his name at the moment) felt that he could rip the planet apart during a moment of gathering power, should he attempt. So willing to take this thought at face value?

Revan does have some Palpatine TIER showings such as one-shotting Darth Nyriss, resisting Valkorion and Dread Masters for centuries during captivity, enduring a Force Drain power of Valkorion for centuries during captivity, cheating death through sheer force of will, multi-tasking during a confrontation with an Imperial Strike Team (hurling large rocks on the platform while attacking the opponents) and sending a coalition of heroes (including Lana Beniko, Satele Shan and Darth Marr) packing across the arena with a powerful wave of energy.

You are not paying attention.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure, but it still puts him far above Revan, which is the point.
Good for him.

We don't know what Revan is truly capable of vis-a-vis affecting the external environment in profound ways.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm not underestimating him, I'm just pointing out that he is no match for the Emperor, which is clearly true given that Palpatine outstrips him in every meaningful category by literally orders of magnitude in terms of what he has been able to do.
Revan will put up a good fight against Palpatine even if he eventually looses. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
laughing ROFLAMO!

You have yet to produce a single feat that puts Revan within even an order of magnitude of ability in telekinesis, speed, dueling, lightning, or anything, really. Trying to put him on Yoda's level is a laughable leap you made to make sure Revan's dick is hard and juicy during your next session.
See the images above

Also, keep in mind that it took two kind of opponents to defeat Revan:

1. Valkorion

2. A coalition of heroes including Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, one of the protagonists (most likely Hero of Tython) and Theron Shan.

These are remarks of SWTOR project manager:

"If you may not know, in Shadow of Revan, we launched what is definitely the most difficult operation boss we ever put into our game - Revan himself. In fact, he is so hard that to this day, five months later, very few guilds in the world have even gotten to him, nevertheless even beaten him. It's a big deal to take down Revan."

―Eric Musco (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Community Manager)

So yes, you have to be Palpatine (or above) to stop Revan and even then it is far from easy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He doesn't have teleportation as of the novel, and Palpatine also studied the Force "in all its guises", and mastered "nearly every known power". Regardless, even if Revan did have some sort of knowledge advantage over perhaps the most learned Force user in galactic history, it matters very little when the disparity in raw power is so vast.
How do you know that? Revan acquired all of his memories (implying that his knowledge and understanding of the Force was finally complete) before confronting Darth Nyriss.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He needs to come within an order of magnitude in something, and you have provided nothing. He isn't as powerful, he isn't as fast, he isn't as learned, he certainly doesn't have the same skills with a blade. The only area where I would give Revan the potential edge is in tactical acumen, and even that has primarily been demonstrated in controlling large fleets and armies, and not in one vs. one combat.
See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is that it's another feat that Revan cannot match.
Revan have superb precognitive abilities and he could respond to an opponent who could move so fast that his movements would give the vibe of Teleportation to another Force-user. I'd say that blitzing those Jedi Masters is within reach of Revan.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Actually the novel makes it clear that Windu would've died really quickly had he not sunk into vaapad. And Windu at base is comparable to or greater than Dooku, one of the most impressive duelists to ever live. What exactly has Revan done with a blade that makes you think he's on Sidious's level again?
Vaapad is one of his talents so it cannot be counted separately.

Revan's technical ability with a blade is such that he became the Taris dueling champion without even using the Force. And after regaining his connection to the Force and his knowledge, Revan was truly formidable with a Lightsaber.

Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He trust one with the Force, the impact hitting the solider square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step-this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive. He came in with a high, overhand chop-obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent downward, leaving his legs exposed to quick slash follow up.

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent's defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with horizontal cut across the man's exposed throat.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Before you underestimate the Imperial Guard; they are a match for Jedi and/or Sith at individual level.

The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen’s mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard’s activities. Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um...no?

Where is your evidence that Nyriss was particularly powerful compared to other dark council members? Because those three Jedi that Palpatine owned were substantially stronger than your average council member given their accolades. Don't forget about Maul and Oppress, who Palpatine easily ragdolled and could've subsequently killed easily - both of them are far superior to "typical" council members like Ki-adi Mundi. Even the likes of Obi Wan can be dispatched quickly by Dooku, let alone Palpatine.

Palpatine also was dominating and would've easily killed pre-vaapad Windu, who is obviously far stronger than Nyriss. So no, killing someone like Nyriss isn't very impressive just because she's on the council.

BTW, it's not even clear that Revan could just one-shot Nyriss in a fair fight; he caught her charged attack and threw it back at her.
Darth Nyriss defeated Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik in a battle. Is this not proof enough?

I am not asserting that Darth Nyriss was the strongest member of the Dark Council during her era; there is no way to determine this with existing information.

Yes, I believe that Darth Nyriss won't be a walk-in-the-park in a more fair confrontation. However, Revan's brilliant move made short work of her.

The Ellimist
...did you...did you just try to use a quote saying that it's a "big deal" to take down Revan to argue for his parity with Sidious?

You're beginning to become a fascinating case, SW_Legend. I've repeated this particular point to you in pretty much every debate we've had, and whenever I mention it, you don't even seem to acknowledge or understand what I'm saying. In fact, you frequently quote the criticism and then obliviously do that really thing in your reply!

And I don't think the language barrier adequately justifies it; this isn't an unusually difficult concept to understand. So I'm going to try to point it out one last time, and we'll see if you actually meaningful engage with it:

You can prove nothing of one's power through vague descriptions and adjectives like "immensely powerful" or "nearly unbeatable" beyond a generic understanding that s/he is somewhat stronger than average. Likewise, neither these accolades nor any feats you have brought forward are meaningful unless if they are a) roughly quantified or explained in their importance, which you sometimes do, and b) COMPARED to the opposing party, which you still never do. All you've done this entire debate is to try to convince me that people think Revan is "very powerful" and can destroy "dozen of enemies" and that underestimating him would be "unwise", but you have failed to produce any actual analysis that COMPARES HIM with Palpatine.

Given your track record I would not be surprised if you read this, let the words shoot through your ears, and then replied with "do not underestimate Revan. He is very formidable." laughing

Tondemonai
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He might stop at Vader, tbh.

Lol wut?

On the topic of the gauntlet 7 if it's any Vader after ANH.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Lol wut?


He's a more well rounded combatant.

Nephthys
Ellimist going full-quan tbh.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Obi-Wan is a weakling compared to Palpatine. As is Revan. That's the whole point.
Was this your point? Really? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Your point was that Arcann is slow-ass. I called BS on this by presenting examples of Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Point is that Force-users aren't slow and they tend to use the Force to augment their speed during dire situations and/or confrontations beyond the reach of normal humans. But content developers have to show their 'actions' in a normal way because the audience wouldn't be able to grasp the moves of Force-users otherwise if their real speed is shown.

For example:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4433903-6694146671-43846.gif

Satele Shan attacked and killed those 3 Sith Warriors before they could react or execute Jace Malcom. Check the lightsaber of one of the warriors (it is moving in slow motion). The content developers deliberately depicted the action-sequences in a slow motion in this case because Satele's actions happen too quickly for audience to grasp in real-time. However, these kind of special effects are only possible in big budget mediums. It is not possible to simulate them in a game.

Now coming towards the main point; Arcann subdued Heskal who had wizard-like abilities and knocked out Senya before she could even react (Senya defeated Vaylin in a confrontation later-on). Arcann also defeated the Outlander (who is officially Hero of Tython and have history of blitzing opponents). Therefore, Arcann is not slow-ass.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dude, it was your feat. If it was a weak feat, why did you even bring it up?

You still haven't come up with a single demonstration of Revan's power that puts him on Palpatine's level. You've tried to dazzle me with his having killed "dozens" of enemies (:laughsmile and a non-Force sensitive soldier, or that he's "immensely powerful". You have not shown me that he can destroy a multi-kilometer fortress with a thought or tear the surface off of planets. You have absolutely nothing.
We cannot draw a comparison of Revan and Palpatine on pound-for-pound basis because the two are not equally explored w.r.t their abilities. What we can do is to compare the two in some areas where the two are comparable.

Here:



Originally posted by The Ellimist
How does this put him on Palpatine's level?
Here is a demonstration of Revan's raw power:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

- The feat clearly demonstrates that Revan can affect and overwhelm several Force-users simultaneously - just like Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not on Palpatine's level. Palpatine "influenced" the entire Jedi Order simultaneously. More specifically he unbalanced the Force itself by meditating, and was such a disturbance by his very existence that his very death restored balance to it and created a nexus above Endor.
Palpatine conducted a ritual to influence the emotions of Jedi across the galaxy during the Clone Wars at some point. However, the Jedi were affected temporarily; Anakin was affected the most however.

Palpatine unbalanced the Dark Side with aid of Darth Plagueis and their meditative efforts spanned several months to achieve the desired results.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love your awkward use of meaningless adjectives - fighting through the Star Forge is a demonstration of a threshold level of ability to deflect blaster bolts and great stamina - it doesn't give us info with which to compare his individual combative abilities with Palpatine's.

Ragdolling Maul and Oppress at the same time and making Windu utterly helpless? That's something.

Or what about when he easily defeated a Luke Skywalker who could bring down AT-ATs? Has Revan ever brought down a massive bipedal four legged walker before?
See the image above.

Defeating an AT-AT isn't a grand showing and it won't be much of a challenge for someone as powerful as Revan. FYI: Revan destroyed a large number of Basilisks during the Mandalorian Wars. Basilisks were large (multi-tonned) droids with the firepower to blast through the hulls of massive Starships and they were also capable of flight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
laughing You actually think this puts him on Palpatine's level?
Why not?

Performance in combat situations is more important than meaningless grand showings and dick-measuring contests.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What does this have to do with combat? His "will" won't save him from decapitation.
http://imagineeringnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/the-point.jpg

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The problem with your "analysis" is that you never bother to compare or quantify things. Being able to defeat "powerful" Sith Lords and beat Mandalore in hand to hand are impressive feats, but they don't meaningfully compare with Palpatine's. Darth Sidious has demonstrated the ability to literally dominate large numbers of upper-tier combatants, affect whole planetary surfaces and populations, unbalance the Force itself, and, well, is explicitly the most powerful sith lord in galactic history. I don't care that Revan can run through "dozens of opponents". Can you actually make meaningful arguments instead of just throwing out random feats and failing to explain why they are impressive or relevant?
Quantifiable feats for you:-

1. Revan one-shotting Darth Nyriss:

Using the chaos of this reprisal as cover, Scourge and Meetra free Revan but are nearly stopped by Nyriss. Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.

From Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

2. Revan sending several (powerful) Force-users packing across the arena with a wave of energy:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

Want to learn about Lana Beniko, Darth Marr and Satele Shan? Just ask.

---

You are exaggerating Palpatine's abilities actually. Its a purposeless dick-measuring contest.

Palpatine's ability to influence planetary populations is a meaningless demonstration. Mace Windu still kicked his @ss and he doesn't have showings like these. Yoda also gave Palpatine migraine and he doesn't have showings like these.

Its time for you to stop citing meaningless stuff and present a real argument.

S_W_LeGenD

The Ellimist
Whether Arcann was slow and deliberately stalling isn't a matter of speculation; you can just watch the cutscene!

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Whether Arcann was slow and deliberately stalling isn't a matter of speculation; you can just watch the cutscene!
Dear Lord... My explanation flew past your head it seems.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/NTsOF.jpg

Every Force-user looks slow , you idiot. This is intentional on the part of content developers.

Look how slow these two look on-screen:

http://i.imgur.com/99Pi8PP.gif

Direct link: http://i.imgur.com/99Pi8PP.gifv

So Count Dooku and Anakin Skywalker are slow, right?

Nephthys
Legend is right and unsurprisingly Ellimist is being a dumbass.

The Ellimist
EDIT: this part didn't get posted for some reason -

You still don't understand how to analyze things in a meaningful way. You still make awkward and cringe-worthy posts about how somebody has "amazing" powers or "wizard-like" skills. Let me try to give you an example:


Lord Scourge had become a proper Sith Lord and gained combat experience prior to meeting Darth Nyriss:


- And an excellent swordsman:

What does "excellent" mean exactly? What does "combat experience" tell us? Is he 1 in 1000? 1 in 100,000? Is he comparable to Kit Fisto or Caedus?

Your utter lack of analytical skills seems even more befuddling when these quotes don't even engage with what you were responding to:

Me: Good for him. He's still described as being a top student at his academy, but hardly a prodigy on the level of, say, Mace Windu, who was basically nothing next to Palpatine before he sunk into vaapad.

What's this? I literally told you that Scourge is an exceptional duelist, but not on the level of the characters we were talking about. You refute me...by pointing out that he's an excellent swordsman. It's like you honestly don't understand the simple elements of the English language.

I'm beginning to think that you have a learning disability. I've tried to explain to you how cringe-worthy your obsession with meaningless adjectives over real analysis is, and you don't even come up with flimsy excuses to this - you don't even acknowledge these complaints or seem to register what I'm trying to say at all.

The second issue with your intellectual failures is your inability to draw substantive comparative analysis between set A and set B. You are intelligent enough to find quotes and videos on the internet and give a superficial description of them in broken English, but you cannot figure out how to explain what this means relative to the opposing character. Take a look at this gem:

Revan's feat of one-shotting Darth Nyriss is a legitimate demonstration of his raw power in the works during that moment. A lesser Jedi would have been overwhelmed (e.g. Meetra Surik) in his place.

WTF does this even mean? Revan > someone lesser than Revan? Ooohhh, what a brilliantly articulated tautology! But now how does this compare with Palpatine's feats

----

Honestly, I really, really hope that in your reply, you at least show signs of understanding the argument I'm putting forward here. I would even see a really stupid or illogical rebuttal to it as progress on your part - at least you understand what the f*ck I'm saying!

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You still don't understand how to analyze things in a meaningful way. You still make awkward and cringe-worthy posts about how somebody has "amazing" powers or "wizard-like" skills.
Is there a need to constantly berate me? Don't take my patience and tolerance for granted.

Whatever I have said about Heskal is absolutely true. He was fast enough to knock out Senya before she could react and he evaded Outlander's attacks like a wizard (literally vanishing from a spot 'before' Outlander could land a blow, only to manifest in another spot). You can see Heskal's actions in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KErb5OGP7d0

Just ask me to elaborate a point, if you are not getting it. This is common courtesy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Let me try to give you an example:


Lord Scourge had become a proper Sith Lord and gained combat experience prior to meeting Darth Nyriss:


- And an excellent swordsman:

What does "excellent" mean exactly? What does "combat experience" tell us? Is he 1 in 1000? 1 in 100,000? Is he comparable to Kit Fisto or Caedus?

Your utter lack of analytical skills seems even more befuddling when these quotes don't even engage with what you were responding to:

Me: Good for him. He's still described as being a top student at his academy, but hardly a prodigy on the level of, say, Mace Windu, who was basically nothing next to Palpatine before he sunk into vaapad.

What's this? I literally told you that Scourge is an exceptional duelist, but not on the level of the characters we were talking about. You refute me...by pointing out that he's an excellent swordsman. It's like you honestly don't understand the simple elements of the English language.
Honestly, the kind of comparisons and parallels you expect from me (or any member) - are not possible to provide when we are comparing characters who belong to different eras and have never interacted.

It is impossible to determine whether Lord Scourge compares to Mace Windu in skill or not. Both are described as expert swordsmen in literature; in this manner, the authors are telling us (the audience) that they have excellent dueling skills. Now who scores higher on paper is impossible to tell because the two never fought and/or never directly compared.

You may argue that Mace Windu outdueled character X and my response would be that Lord Scourge outdueled character Y, and we will be back to square one.

Mace Windu stalemated Palpatine by virtue of Vaapad! Fair enough. But then how fast is Palpatine? Fast enough to blitz some Jedi Masters? Ok. But Palpatine cannot blitz 'every' Jedi Master out there. This is the point.

The ambiguities in these matters cannot be addressed, like ever. Otherwise, these kind of debates would not be taking place.

If Palpatine scores 10 on paper and Lord Scourge scores 8 on paper then every reader will know that who is better and who will win should the two ever fight. However, Star Wars is not about mathematics.

In the end, we all are making assumptions! Informed ones at best.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm beginning to think that you have a learning disability. I've tried to explain to you how cringe-worthy your obsession with meaningless adjectives over real analysis is, and you don't even come up with flimsy excuses to this - you don't even acknowledge these complaints or seem to register what I'm trying to say at all.
Right...

You understand how stupid this is? I have university degrees under my belt for a reason.

I pointed out a fact to you that Revan became the most powerful Jedi Master in galactic history. Your response is that this is an adjective.

Now is it my job to explain to you the implications of the aforementioned revelation? Where is your common sense?

Since Revan is the most powerful Jedi in galactic history, you can look into the history of Jedi who are known and then power-scale Revan from such information.

Don't try to be my teacher.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The second issue with your intellectual failures is your inability to draw substantive comparative analysis between set A and set B. You are intelligent enough to find quotes and videos on the internet and give a superficial description of them in broken English, but you cannot figure out how to explain what this means relative to the opposing character. Take a look at this gem:

Revan's feat of one-shotting Darth Nyriss is a legitimate demonstration of his raw power in the works during that moment. A lesser Jedi would have been overwhelmed (e.g. Meetra Surik) in his place.

WTF does this even mean? Revan > someone lesser than Revan? Ooohhh, what a brilliantly articulated tautology! But now how does this compare with Palpatine's feats
http://galeri3.uludagsozluk.com/129/facepalm_227789.jpg

You requested 'quantifiable' showings of Revan and I provided some.

Now, you are saying that "how does this compare with Palpatine's feats"? Dear Lord.

Do you even have a brain? I am curious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Honestly, I really, really hope that in your reply, you at least show signs of understanding the argument I'm putting forward here. I would even see a really stupid or illogical rebuttal to it as progress on your part - at least you understand what the f*ck I'm saying!
Again, your pathetic berating needs to stop. Or I'll put you on the ignore or report you to a moderator.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Anybody from 3-6 has a good chance of beating him in a neutral setting without prep.
Nice joke. But then who takes you seriously?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't take my patience and tolerance for granted.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have university degrees under my belt for a reason.


^ if I get the motivation for it, I'll probably sig these.

As for me "berating" you, I think you need to read your posts a little more carefully for their random bursts of condescension and mockery before you try to toss stones from a glass house. Although now that I think of it, I honestly think that your English skills might be so bad that you don't realize how condescending you sound. Sorry if that's a rude thing to say - but I think it's the lesser of two bad interpretations.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Honestly, the kind of comparisons and parallels you expect from me (or any member) - are not possible to provide when we are comparing characters who belong to different eras and have never interacted.


Funny; if you were a nihilist on this, one would expect you to not be the one with the most radical and ironclad power hierarchies.

But, you're right to say that it's difficult, more so for lightsaber combat than with the Force (which can be measured by more absolute standards). But that's no excuse for you to hold a strong position and then defend it with meaningless quotes and evidence that fails to even try to do said comparisons.

This is also why, unlike you, I pay attention to canon statements of relative power levels, because they're the most objective measures that we have in a sea of inconsistencies. Of course, despite your rejecting Sidious's "most powerful sith" statements, you drool over proclamations of Revan being "immensely powerful" and the double standard shoots way over your head.

Regardless, through a combination of said accolades, powerscaling and feats, we can construct a pretty cogent picture of things.

---------

Nephthys
A quick scan of the thread reveals that you were condescending and mocking to Legend before he responded in kind, Ellimist.

The Ellimist
^ oh I'm talking more long term

tbf I think the condescension is mutual and not serious enough to be uncommon in a debate

The Ellimist
But you gotta admit "I have university degrees under my belt for a reason." is sig worthy.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ if I get the motivation for it, I'll probably sig these.

As for me "berating" you, I think you need to read your posts a little more carefully for their random bursts of condescension and mockery before you try to toss stones from a glass house. Although now that I think of it, I honestly think that your English skills might be so bad that you don't realize how condescending you sound. Sorry if that's a rude thing to say - but I think it's the lesser of two bad interpretations.
My English skills aren't so bad - I have doubts about your IQ level though. You are unable comprehend simple statements and points. I have went to great lengths to clarify some of my points that you failed to comprehend but in vain.

You tend to hide behind your lack of comprehension skills by attacking my English skills and me in person. You have yet to offer a good argument about why Palpatine would utterly trash Revan. Kindly stick to the discussion at hand. If you cannot offer a reasonable argument then get lost.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
But, you're right to say that it's difficult, more so for lightsaber combat than with the Force (which can be measured by more absolute standards). But that's no excuse for you to hold a strong position and then defend it with meaningless quotes and evidence that fails to even try to do said comparisons.
I have some questions for you:

1. How much raw power is needed to deflect Force Lightning?
2. How much raw power is needed to lift a 5 ton object?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is also why, unlike you, I pay attention to canon statements of relative power levels, because they're the most objective measures that we have in a sea of inconsistencies. Of course, despite your rejecting Sidious's "most powerful sith" statements, you drool over proclamations of Revan being "immensely powerful" and the double standard shoots way over your head.
The irony here is sig. worthy.

What do you think that I have been revealing to you so far? Pancakes?

Here is an important one for Revan:

In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

The benchmark is absolutely clear and defined. Now it is up to you to infer Revan's power through power-scaling and feats of his inferiors.

I do not reject Palpatine's promotion as the most powerful Sith Lord; I focus on the bigger picture at hand.

Valkorion was never a true Sith Lord to begin with, FYI. He destroyed a large number of Sith on Medriaas after the Great Hyperspace War for personal gains (first red flag). He did reconstitute the ancient Sith Empire but he created a Dark Council to run its affairs. Personally, he was more interested in honing his talents in the Dark Side and prepare for galaxy-consuming ritual (second red flag). He eventually got exposed and then went on a killing-spree with total disregard of the well-being of the Empire he had created (third red flag). He even established a new Empire and Force-using Order - free from the constraints of Sith philosophy (fourth red flag). No wonder the Sith rejected him in the end.

The label Sith is not something that you inherit since birth. Its just a philosophy and a Force-user may reject it but still be a practitioner of the Dark Side. Valkorion is dark but not Sith.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Regardless, through a combination of said accolades, powerscaling and feats, we can construct a pretty cogent picture of things.
Right....

Now use it for Revan.

Syndicate
Hey Legend you want to know something interesting? smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Syndicate
Hey Legend you want to know something interesting? smile
Sure. smile

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