Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Round 1: Lightsabers only

Round 2: Force fight

Round 3: All out

Round 1: Zannah in a good fight

Round 2: Zannah

Round 3: Zannah

lmao at Zannah taking sabers

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Round 1: Zannah in a good fight

Round 2: Zannah

Round 3: Zannah

So Zannah could replicate Ahsoka's showing against Vader?

Nice logic, lmao

Lmao Zannah gets stomped in sabers

Is it wise to reveal your alliance publicly guys?

Anybody with a living brain knows Ahsoka stomps in sabers ;-;

*Hugs Bart*

:3

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Round 1: Zannah in a good fight

Round 2: Zannah

Round 3: Zannah https://media.giphy.com/media/HZqtJcQs92T4I/giphy.gif

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Round 1: Zannah in a good fight

Round 2: Zannah

Round 3: Zannah

I agree she wins all but it's close with sabers. We've seen her perform well against highly offensive opponents, but idk how she'd fair against Zannah's Soresu mastery.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/HZqtJcQs92T4I/giphy.gif

He and DMB are butt buds so he acquiesces on the topic of Bane characters.

Originally posted by Syndicate
He and DMB are butt buds so he acquiesces on the topic of Bane characters.
That or he legitimately agrees with my arguments? That's a very distinct possibility too. Not everyone is a sheep Syn, some stick up for their opinions and Joker is one of the people with enough integrity to do so.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That or he legitimately agrees with my arguments? That's a very distinct possibility too. Not everyone is a sheep Syn, some stick up for their opinions and Joker is one of the people with enough integrity to do so.

Fair enough. I'm too jaded by the Vine where 95% of people ARE sheep.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/HZqtJcQs92T4I/giphy.gif

My reaction tbh.

But tbf... Zannah does have the only advantage of illusions and seeing as Ahsoka is haunted by her suspicions and such.

A reasonable argument can be made that Zannah takes Force and All-Out but the idea that Zannah could take a sabers only engagement somewhat baffles and intrigues me.

Especially coming from Joker. uhuh

Well, when i debated DMB on DMBE about Dooku's resistance of Illusions, i re-read PoD, RoT, DOE, etc. And i found that while Bane was not as well versed as Dooku was in iilusions, he did have that Hyperbole willpower to resist Illusions and had conquered his fears long ago.

Ahsoka still has her doubts as evident in the Temple of lothal where she is clearly haunted by Anakin. This and given the fact that when she finds out that her suspicions about Vader she's outright surprised that her worst fear came true, does give Zannah a lot of room to use Illusions.

That said, surviving the explosion of the Malachor super weapon along side Vader does make her Willpower and durability very great.

Still, at the time that's what i was considering when i made the comment.

Thoughts?

There is literally no argument for Zannah taking sabers.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Well, when i debated DMB on DMBE about Dooku's resistance of Illusions, i re-read PoD, RoT, DOE, etc. And i found that while Bane was not as well versed as Dooku was in iilusions, he did have that Hyperbole willpower to resist Illusions and had conquered his fears long ago.
Bane still studied Zannah's illusions and looked through the very source material of the sorcery itself to look for a defense and he couldn't find one. The idea that Dooku has some inside knowledge on Zannah's illusions that Bane didn't have is ridiculous. And unlike Dooku, Bane has actually demonstrated knowledge of how to dispel illusions before from Freedon Nadd's holocron, and he has also used it to dispel force ghosts.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ahsoka still has her doubts as evident in the Temple of lothal where she is clearly haunted by Anakin. This and given the fact that when she finds out that her suspicions about Vader she's outright surprised that her worst fear came true, does give Zannah a lot of room to use Illusions.

That said, surviving the explosion of the Malachor super weapon along side Vader does make her Willpower and durability very great.
Durability yes but that's not impressive enough for her willpower to be placed high enough to resist them.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/Vw0qSJDTmnO4U/200.gif

Firstly, I cannot even begin to describe how wrong you are, and I won't because I'd rather not engage in a debate with you.

Secondly. If surviving a ****ing super weapon doesn't get anyone at high tier willpower, then I've no idea what does.

Yeah but I'm not wrong. Bane has demonstrated the capability to easily disperse illusions before and also dispersed force ghosts at one point after studying Freedon Nadd's holocron. Dooku has not demonstrated any feats of dispelling illusions before. Both have access to holocrons of illusionists, but Bane has actually demonstrated more talent than Dooku has in countering them, and unlike Dooku had access to the source material for Zannah's illusions. Dooku isn't better than Bane in this area, and the idea of him having some inside knowledge on Zannah's illusions that Bane didn't have is ridiculous.

It's okay to be wrong, DMB.

DMB is kind of winning doe, there's no inherent correlation between surviving an explosion and having high willpower. GG aurberu

Originally posted by ILS
DMB is kind of winning doe, there's no inherent correlation between surviving an explosion and having high willpower. GG aurberu

Is that why DMB uses similar feats for Bane to show his high willpower? mmm

Pretty sure DMB uses feats like the Orbalisks eating Bane from the inside out, ones that irrefutably relate to pain tolerance.

Originally posted by ILS
Pretty sure DMB uses feats like the Orbalisks eating Bane from the inside out, ones that irrefutably relate to pain tolerance.

Ppl, let aurby guard his boo-bear, tbh.
On topic: Zannah, all rounds.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Well, when i debated DMB on DMBE about Dooku's resistance of Illusions, i re-read PoD, RoT, DOE, etc. And i found that while Bane was not as well versed as Dooku was in iilusions, he did have that Hyperbole willpower to resist Illusions and had conquered his fears long ago.

Ahsoka still has her doubts as evident in the Temple of lothal where she is clearly haunted by Anakin. This and given the fact that when she finds out that her suspicions about Vader she's outright surprised that her worst fear came true, does give Zannah a lot of room to use Illusions.

That said, surviving the explosion of the Malachor super weapon along side Vader does make her Willpower and durability very great.

Still, at the time that's what i was considering when i made the comment.

Thoughts? My thoughts are that more important even that willpower is being prepared, Bane was able to anticipate Zannah's attack and steeled his mind in preparation for it, Ahsoka will have no such advantage so I feel however strong her will may be she'll probably succumb.

Anyway still waiting for the case for Zannah in sabers. mmm

Originally posted by ILS
DMB is kind of winning doe, there's no inherent correlation between surviving an explosion and having high willpower. GG aurberu

To survive and get up after that around the same time Vader did would require a great amount of willpower.

Look at all the feats people surviving explosions, saber blows,etc and you'll see a mention of willpower or something similar.

That's why I say Ahsoka has some incredible willpower to be able to walk away from that fight alive(if barely)

@dmb cool story

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My thoughts are that more important even that willpower is being prepared, Bane was able to anticipate Zannah's attack and steeled his mind in preparation for it, Ahsoka will have no such advantage so I feel however strong her will may be she'll probably succumb.

Anyway still waiting for the case for Zannah in sabers. mmm

Ahh. Makes sense.

LOL I think Ahsoka wins sabers in a hard fought fight. So no comment from me

>doesn't even know if she's alive
>uses it in an argument

This supposedly great revelation that Dooku is more equipped to deal with Zannah's sorcery is asserted, I counter by pointing out that Bane knows more about Zannah's sorcery than Dooku ever could and that Bane unlike Dooku actually has demonstrated the ability to dispel illusions, and the counter for that is "cool story"? Nah, not a legit counter. I'll let my point stand for itself though since the feats and common sense are on my side.

Zannah with her illusions and unorthodox methods which Ahsoka is unfamiliar with could win the all-out, but sabers goes for Ahsoka. I don't think there's a feat that compares to Ahsoka's showings against Vader, Maul, Asajj, etc.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>doesn't even know if she's alive
>uses it in an argument

Did you not see the end of SWR? I Thought it was pretty obvious she was alive since she's ya know, walking around, being gloomy and shit.

Joker found some badass comparison shit between that walk and the walk out of the Jedi temple at the end of S5

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Did you not see the end of SWR? I Thought it was pretty obvious she was alive since she's ya know, walking around, being gloomy and shit.
Do you not know what a metaphor is?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Do you not know what a metaphor is?

Shut up and accept your defeat.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Joker found some badass comparison shit between that walk and the walk out of the Jedi temple at the end of S5

Tell him to pm me it, please.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Tell him to pm me it, please.
Will do if he doesn't see it on this thread first.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Shut up and accept your defeat.




Tell him to pm me it, please.
So confirmation you're legit brain impaired?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So confirmation you're legit brain impaired?

Sorry to disappoint but the only confirmation you'll be getting is the one that says you're deep in debt for those student loans.

Going for the wallet? Must be feeling the pressure.

It was a decent jab and you know it.

Never mind Joker can't remember where it is. If I had to guess I'd say... *shudders* tumblr

DMB have this one in the bag.

DMB straight up wrecked. Fated must be high as a kite to think that "surviving" (lol) an explosion means you have willpower.

Oh and Zannah in everything. With regards to sabers, since Beni was asking, Ahsoka isn't getting through her defense when Bane couldn't. She'll tire and lose eventually. Her style seems to be very frenetic so she should expend energy quickly. And I don't think she has any stellar stamina feats.

Would take 10/10 Force defenses tho

Protection against sorcery and mental attacks needs more than force shields. Bane directly states it's mostly willpower. And illusions are dispelled, not force shielded against.

Obviously.

Yeah Joker's just saying it's an impressive feat for Ahsoka, which it is, not that it gives her the win here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Protection against sorcery and mental attacks needs more than force shields. Bane directly states it's mostly willpower. And illusions are dispelled, not force shielded against.

Neph, I don't wanna get into it today tbh.

It's my day off, all I wanna do is, absolutely nothing.

Look up the passage again, and see the quotesidoodles.

You want me to look up the passage? Of what Bane says is the counter to Zannah's attack?

Kek, are you sure.

Obviously Bane's opinion >> other characters in SW who have shrugged off telepathic attacks

Zannah doesn't use telepathy.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah Joker's just saying it's an impressive feat for Ahsoka, which it is, not that it gives her the win here.
You mean if she's actually alive, because Vader would let her leave, thinking she knows where the Jedi are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah doesn't use telepathy.

which means **** all when her attacks have more or less the same effect as attacking the mind

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Zannah with her illusions and unorthodox methods which Ahsoka is unfamiliar with could win the all-out, but sabers goes for Ahsoka. I don't think there's a feat that compares to Ahsoka's showings against Vader, Maul, Asajj, etc.

obviously beating skilled duelists like Set Harth and Sarro Xaj, those guys make Vader look like a chump

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You mean if she's actually alive, because Vader would let her leave, thinking she knows where the Jedi are.
When season three comes around, and Ahsoka is alive and well.

I will have the satisfaction of wrecking you harder than your debt.

Originally posted by carthage
which means **** all when her attacks have more or less the same effect as attacking the mind

Oh honey...

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
When season three comes around, and Ahsoka is alive and well.

I will have the satisfaction of wrecking you harder than your debt.
>implying I'm in humongous debt because I go to college
>implying you even have an ounce of the debating skill it'd take to phase me, even while Neph and DMB are tea-bagging you.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>implying I'm in humongous debt because I go to college
>implying you even have an ounce of the debating skill it'd take to phase me, even while Neph and DMB are tea-bagging you.

>says he's not in debt.

>told everyone he was piss poor.

Kek

>implying I'm even invested in this debate.

>implying you even debate anymore.

I'm also black, so I get lot of government grants, lel.

Fated, I don't need to debate when your name in a post is an auto-concession. excellent

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm also black, so I get lot of government grants, lel.

You're whiter than sour cream, mayonnaise and country music tbh.



Pff, you know damn well you enjoy my antics, we went through this already.

Least I'm not part of the ToR squaduhuh

Originally posted by carthage
obviously beating skilled duelists like Set Harth and Sarro Xaj, those guys make Vader look like a chump

Sure they do. Also, Farfalla man.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
>says he's not in debt.

>told everyone he was piss poor.

Kek

>implying I'm even invested in this debate.

>implying you even debate anymore.

Don't do that. Don't go down to that level. You're better than that.

He's not, but that is a fact you'll learn soon enough.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You're whiter than sour cream, mayonnaise and country music tbh.

The government seems to think differently.

I'd rather be in the TOR Brigade than be the PT-crowd's Neph...

Originally posted by Aurbere
Don't do that. Don't go down to that level. You're better than that.

is he

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He's not, but that is a fact you'll learn soon enough.

The government seems to think differently.

I'd rather be in the TOR Brigade than be the PT-crowd's Neph...

Well now you've done it. I'm so angry wow.

I've never been so insulted.

too far freshest, too far.

Jk. You'll fall soon

Originally posted by Nephthys
With regards to sabers, since Beni was asking, Ahsoka isn't getting through her defense when Bane couldn't. She'll tire and lose eventually. Her style seems to be very frenetic so she should expend energy quickly. And I don't think she has any stellar stamina feats. I suppose that's the argument I was anticipating.

However, Zannah's performance against Bane isn't proof she can deal with Ahsoka's combination of speed, agility and technical skill, of which Bane does not possess, especially considering that unlike then she has no familiarity with her opponents form.

With Ahsoka holding her own against Vader for almost two minutes being an exceptionally impressive stamina feat. It's very unlikely she's going to tire at all quickly.

rain feat doe?

This will be entertaining.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I suppose that's the argument I was anticipating.

However, Zannah's performance against Bane isn't proof she can deal with Ahsoka's combination of speed, agility and technical skill, of which Bane does not possess, especially considering that unlike then she has no familiarity with her opponents form.

With Ahsoka holding her own against Vader for almost two minutes being an exceptionally impressive stamina feat. It's very unlikely she's going to tire at all quickly.

Bane certainly does possess Ahsoka's speed, and more imo, and he hardly lacks her "technical skill". Ahsoka never even finished her training as a padawan, whereas Bane most certainly did learn all he could from Kas'im to the point where the latter couldn't pull anything Bane couldn't counter and respond to, until he went dual sabers. And Kas'im was a master of all lightsaber forms to their highest, perfected degree's. He knew every move of every form. So don't talk to me about technical skill. Ahsoka also lacks Bane's advantage of having taught Zannah everything she knew about swordsmanship. If he doesn't know a weakness that can be exploited with technical skill, Ahsoka sure as shit isn't finding any. Lmao at how you act as if Zannah had the advantage in that regard.

Lastly Ahsoka's agility will merit her nothing. A purely defensive duelist like Zannah can easily turn and meet anything she tries to pull. It takes her far less time and effort to simply turn a different way than it does Ahsoka to circle around her or jump over her.

2 minutes of fighting isn't that impressive compared to Bane fighting for hours. Zannah was specifically trained to outlast her opponent. Since Ahsoka has no method for defeating her, Zannah can tank and spank her. Even if it takes her 3 whole minutes to do so.

Obviously Kas'im is as impressive as Vader, and Zannah sparring with Bane is completely comparable to Ahsoka holding her own against two of the most skilled Sith in the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane certainly does possess Ahsoka's speed, and more imoOn what basis?Cool, so Bane was able to respond to every move Kas'im had taught him to counter, except the moves he hadn't taught him to counter? Lel, I think it's pretty evident why that was the case, along with being significantly stronger in the Force.

And Ahsoka did finish her training, she was granted the title of Jedi Knight but rejected it. Training she received from Anakin Skywalker i.e. a better teacher than Kas'im.

Regardless Bane has nothing on contending equally with one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history, despite having a Force augmentative disadvantage.Um yes, because with Bane on the offense, it is Zannah whose going to be in a position to predict and counter his familiar attacks, not the other way around.

And considering Ahsoka possesses a greater level of technical skill than Bane, I'd disagree. Regardless that argument was never made. If Zannah is going to be overwhelmed it will be by virtue of her inability to effectively counter the sheer level of technique her opponent is practicing, as was the case in her duel against Xaj.Granted Zannah's defensive capabilities will provide her some advantage, but the fact remains that a more omnidirectional assault will put a greater strain on her defences than a solely frontal one, like the kind Bane employed.What has Bane's stamina got to do with this?

And it was almost two minutes of fighting against Vader, who well before his prime left Dooku exhausted and defeated in seconds. Granted Zannah's form nets her a stamina edge, but the fact remains Ahsoka will give her a marathon engagement, in which her Zannah will have plenty of opportunities to succumb to her opponent's superior skill or trip on a grave.

These kinds of battles always require some sort of assumed parity between Legends and Canon power levels. If we grant that, take "Rebels is Vader in his prime" seriously, and contend that Ahsoka's performance against Vader is typical for her, she pretty much annihilates Zannah and a duelist and Force user. Rebels Vader > RotS Anakin > Dooku >>>> Bane. I still don't see how she deals with the sorcery though.

She deals with it by stabbing Zannah in the face with one of her lightsabers, I imagine.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis?
DOE Bane being faster than ROT Bane who moved fast enough to outmaneuver BM Raskta and throw her on the ground who is notably faster than POD Bane via increased force power and physical augmentation from the orbalisks, and POD Bane was outpacing saberstaff Kas'im who was fast enough to near blitz trainee Bane who moved faster than a room full of near Sith masters could even perceive.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, so Bane was able to respond to every move Kas'im had taught him to counter, except the moves he hadn't taught him to counter? Lel, I think it's pretty evident why that was the case, along with being significantly stronger in the Force.
Except this includes basically every move of lightsaber combat. And Bane did indeed train Zannah to recognize and defend against the various forms of lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Ahsoka did finish her training, she was granted the title of Jedi Knight but rejected it. Training she received from Anakin Skywalker i.e. a better teacher than Kas'im.
Anakin is a better dueling instructor than Kas'im? How? Not only does Kas'im have a considerably wider array of lightsaber knowledge to teach from, but he also basically does so for a living while Anakin literally started off teaching with Ahsoka.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless Bane has nothing on contending equally with one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history, despite having a Force augmentative disadvantage.
Bane is one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history :/

Kas'im could've near instantly stomped Trainee Bane who had already saber soloed a dozen Tuk'ata while weakened by hunger and exhaustion and who stomped Sirak, a high level master of multiple forms and otherwise the greatest duelist in an academy where the weakest student is still more powerful than an entire division of soldiers and substantially above the Sith marauders who are capable of curbstomping Jedi Padawans. POD Bane, who is far beneath Bane's peak as a duelist, drove Kas'im into a desperate retreat.

Raskta Lsu has carved through enough Sith Lords at once to leave a litter of bodies in her wake and is regarded as the most skilled martial artist in the entire Jedi Order with a penchant for predicting the moves of her opponents and allies and for hand to hand combat, and Bane outmaneuvered her while she was augmented by battle meditation and threw her to the ground with a physical strike. Then bereft of battle meditation, Raskta with the aid of Farfalla and Johun were being driven back by Bane.

Bane can most certainly match Ahsoka's performance against Vader.

And if Zannah can escape out from under the full fury of Bane's assault even after falling on her back, then she can at the very very least hold out against Ahsoka long enough in a duel to bring her sorcery to bare.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Um yes, because with Bane on the offense, it is Zannah whose going to be in a position to predict and counter his familiar attacks, not the other way around.
You do realize that Ahsoka would've had the same advantage against Vader right? There's even a quote confirming so.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And considering Ahsoka possesses a greater level of technical skill than Bane, I'd disagree.
Where does this argument about Ahsoka's technical skill come from? Bane is a high level master of Djem So, Juyo, and Soresu, and was capable to adapting to nearly any form or combination of forms possible by even the point of POD, and even prior to his training with Kas'im he practiced his moves to the point of flawless repetition every time.

What details are there on Ahsoka's technical skill and the advancement of her technique that's apparently just too much for Zannah to adapt to?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless that argument was never made. If Zannah is going to be overwhelmed it will be by virtue of her inability to effectively counter the sheer level of technique her opponent is practicing, as was the case in her duel against Xaj.
You mean the duel with Sarro that was long before Zannah's peak? Zannah's training was nowhere near complete, she was facing one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy augmented by potent battle meditation and who had spent the past two or three decades obsessively refining his skills as a duelist to perfection, and Zannah was already basically in a corner when their 1v1 began so she had no room to retreat which would otherwise be an invaluable asset for somebody on the defensive.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Granted Zannah's defensive capabilities will provide her some advantage, but the fact remains that a more omnidirectional assault will put a greater strain on her defences than a solely frontal one, like the kind Bane employed.
Zannah has already demonstrated the capacity to defend against an assault from every conceivable angle with ease, Bane was attacking from more angles than just a straight brute force offensive, and the logistics of Zannah's fighting style are perfectly suited for countering an omnidirectional assault.

If you mean the part where Vader was driving her back, beating her guard down, and sent her flying off the templeside sure Bane could probably replicate that lmao

Originally posted by Beniboybling

And Ahsoka did finish her training, she was granted the title of Jedi Knight but rejected it. Training she received from Anakin Skywalker i.e. a better teacher than Kas'im.


Source? Anakin offered her to come back as his Padawan. Thus the padawan clip/braid he offered to her with an open hand. + If Anakin had trained her to be a JK then it'd be even more ridiculous for the Council to grant him the rank of Master.

"When the Jedi Council admits its mistake and proposes reinstatement with a promotion to the Jedi Knight, Ahsoka refuses the offer."

--Ultimate Star Wars

Also DMB I will respond to your post later today.

The Council didn't let Anakin be a Master because he was in Palpatine's pocket. That's always been clear.

Besides Ahsoka refused, so never actually became a Knight. That could be seen as a failure for Anakin as a Master/Teacher.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
However, Zannah's performance against Bane isn't proof she can deal with Ahsoka's combination of speed, agility and technical skill, of which Bane does not possess, especially considering that unlike then she has no familiarity with her opponents form.
How is Darth Bane relatively lacking in those areas? He is extremely fast, agile and skilled duelist as well.

I never said he was lacking.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Council didn't let Anakin be a Master because he was in Palpatine's pocket. That's always been clear.

^ Tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How is Darth Bane relatively lacking in those areas? He is extremely fast, agile and skilled duelist as well.

Bane is one of the weaker sith in the Banite line.

Prolly the weakest.

Not sure if he's weaker than Maul, but he's probably weaker than all of the Sith who ended up becoming masters.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
DOE Bane being faster than ROT Bane who moved fast enough to outmaneuver BM Raskta and throw her on the ground who is notably faster than POD Bane via increased force power and physical augmentation from the orbalisks, and POD Bane was outpacing saberstaff Kas'im who was fast enough to near blitz trainee Bane who moved faster than a room full of near Sith masters could even perceive.As I recall Neph raised sources that state he become slower, not faster in his age. Regardless Lsu demonstrated a clear speed advantage in that fight, so it's a moot point.

And where was Bane even outpacing Kas'im? He was evidently able to drive him back with the strength of his attacks but there is no indication he held as speed advantage. Which if anything Kas'im seized with his counter-attack:

The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two: he attacked with a peculiar rhythm designed to keep his foe off balance, coming in with one blade high and the other low at the same time, striking from opposite sides at odd and opposing angles. Bane had no option but to fall back ... and back ... and back.

Regardless, even if we were to assume Bane an order of magnitude faster than Kas'im, that doesn't put him on level with Ahsoka. Who has matched the speed of Vader, who in turn before his prime was described as moving "almost as one" with Darth Sidious, who in turn would blitz the likes of Kas'im in seconds.Actually Kas'im is stated to have held back several techniques.

Regardless that's not the point, the point is Bane was only able to respond to his moves because he was largely familiar with how Kas'im employed them (and let's not pretend the seven styles have remained static for over a 1,000 years, or ignore that Ahsoka wields the same Jar'Kai style that he omitted to instruct Bane in) not because of sheer skill, and when that advantage was removed he was utterly outclassed.

This is not proof of skill, its proof of familiarity with how Kas'im fought and inferiority to a duelist of stellar ability. Though frankly the real reason he had any advantage at all was because of his significant Force advantage, which prior to abusing, he's was barely holding Kas'im back.

Altogether it in no way proves superiority or even parity with Ahsoka's skill.
Because he's the more accomplished swordsman? Talent he can pass on to his student? Granted Kas'im is aware of more styles but that doesn't necessarily make him better when Anakin can instruct in a few styles to a better degree.

And frankly Anakin's inexperience as a teacher doesn't preclude him being excellent at it, especially considering he's a practical genius, and Ahsoka had nothing but praise for him.According to what source or is this just your opinion? Because if it is I don't share it.Rather a wasted effort there considering Bane is an inferior duellist to the pair of them. He was only able to drive them back because of his significant Force advantage (and against Lsu the nigh invulnerability of his orbalisks), not because of his skill.That's beside the point? Not only was I discussing Maul but we are talking about Ahsoka's merits as a duellist here, not how well she performed against Vader (or Maul), and whether or not Bane can replicate that.We're also discussing sabers only, keep up dear. Your point being?

Regardless considering Vader retooled his fighting style to accommodate for his suit whereas Ahsoka merely built on her's, and considering Anakin taught Ahsoka and not the other way around, any advantage is going to go to him in that regard. Which has also been confirmed."Bane has nothing on contending equally with one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history, despite having a Force augmentative disadvantage."So are a lot of people.Which is very nice, but how are his defensive capabilities relevant when we are discussing his offensive ability to press Zannah?Wonderful, but perfection in application does not follow on from perfection in practice, not does it speak of the number or complexity of techniques he has mastered.

Altogether, how does any of this prove his is on level with Maul?That's the wrong question. Rather what evidence is there that suggests Zannah can defend indefinitely against someone at least equal to Darth Maul in skill?Right, but you'll notice I never stated Ahsoka could perform as well as Xaj, merely pointed out a precedent for Zannah being overwhelmed by someone possessing sufficiently superior skill. Regardless do you have a source for that or is it an assumption? Zannah's form is already stated to be near-perfect defensively as of RoT, doesn't seem much room for improvementUh-huh, I'm sure that Bane attacked her from as many angles as he was able. But the fact remains his range of options would have been limited by his frontal assault.

So unless Bane attacked from above, behind and side to side, this assertion she can defend against every conceivable angle with ease is false. Not that I ever denied she's well suited to an omni-direction assault in general, just that it will be more taxing.

I'll respond when I get home from school.

Homestuck.

Beni. God damn lol remind me not to debate ahsoka with you.

Master? Did you fail against the beniboi?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Beni. God damn lol remind me not to debate ahsoka with you.

This is nothing. He's gone on far longer against other people. And more aggressively too.

Originally posted by Aurbere
This is nothing.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Beni. God damn lol remind me not to debate ahsoka with you. I'm sure you'd never find yourself on the wrong side of the debate, Fated.

I'll keep him in check.

Fear will keep the local systems in line.

Sometimes I think you two are the same person.

^ Tbh.

Who knows? Maybe we are.

Reported for socking

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Sometimes I think you two are the same person.
Joker and Beni can't be the same person because Beni rides Jadus, and Joker doesn't touch anything before the PT like a scrub.

Gotta keep it low key tho.

There's no way anyone with even an ounce of your wank could keep that on the DL.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Beni. God damn lol remind me not to debate ahsoka with you.

Nope.

Originally posted by Aurbere
This is nothing. He's gone on far longer against other people. And more aggressively too.

I know, I debated Aurra Vs Savage with him. I respect him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm sure you'd never find yourself on the wrong side of the debate, Fated.

Not with Ahsoka

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I'll keep him in check.

Pfffff you may certainly try.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I know, I debated Aurra Vs Savage with him. I respect him.


Heh, right I remember. Though I was mostly referring to his months on end debates with Legend a ways back.

You should be grateful I drove him off our forums back in the day.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You should be grateful I drove him off our forums back in the day.

If only you were as successful here...

The TOR forum can crash and burn. The fact that LeGenD is still here is a problem.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Heh, right I remember. Though I was mostly referring to his months on end debates with Legend a ways back.

Yeah. Beni wouldn't ever be aggressive with me :3

Poor legend

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The TOR forum can crash and burn. The fact that LeGenD is still here is a problem. You all fatten him with your TOR wank tbh.

Who cares about wanking KotFE? He wrote out six actual pages about why Bastila was as powerful as Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah. Beni wouldn't ever be aggressive with me :3

Poor legend

Poor Legend? Spare him your pity. It's his own fault.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who cares about wanking KotFE? He wrote out six actual pages about why Bastila was as powerful as Count Dooku.

Say whaaaa..

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who cares about wanking KotFE? He wrote out six actual pages about why Bastila was as powerful as Count Dooku.

TL;DR

Because TOR, yeah?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who cares about wanking KotFE? He wrote out six actual pages about why Bastila was as powerful as Count Dooku. TOR is TOR. He is a demon of your own creation, you must renounce TOR, you must renounce Valkorion and embrace the PT if he is to be defeated, there is no other way.

TOR doesn't even have anything to do with this discussion, despite him trying to argue with it constantly.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Say whaaaa..
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624980&pagenumber=4

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I recall Neph raised sources that state he become slower, not faster in his age.
It says he was the merest fraction slower than he once was at some unspecified point in his past, and given the decade of off page time that takes place between ROT and DOE you can't really prove this is in reference to ROT Bane. On the other hand, DOE Bane moving faster than Zannah could've ever imagined when she's seen ROT Bane fight in a bloodlust before proves the opposite.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless Lsu demonstrated a clear speed advantage in that fight, so it's a moot point.
Only when Bane was feigning inferiority to draw Raskta away from Worror.

And on the topic of BM Raskta, she levied half a dozen strikes in less time than it took Bane to cross less than two meters of distance while Bane was running fast enough to blitz an unamped Farfalla from an even greater distance. That's striking speed honestly beyond even Grievous.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
And where was Bane even outpacing Kas'im? He was evidently able to drive him back with the strength of his attacks but there is no indication he held as speed advantage. Which if anything Kas'im seized with his counter-attack:

The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two: he attacked with a peculiar rhythm designed to keep his foe off balance, coming in with one blade high and the other low at the same time, striking from opposite sides at odd and opposing angles. Bane had no option but to fall back ... and back ... and back.
Yeah, when wielding Jar'kai which gives him an extra weapon to strike with while he also notes the saberstaff is limiting in the moves it would allow in such a way that would reduce striking speed. And it was a saberstaff wielding Kas'im I made the comparison with, who with a saber staff would've still been fast enough to near-blitz an opponent capable of moving faster than near Sith Masters could see.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, even if we were to assume Bane an order of magnitude faster than Kas'im, that doesn't put him on level with Ahsoka. Who has matched the speed of Vader, who in turn before his prime was described as moving "almost as one" with Darth Sidious, who in turn would blitz the likes of Kas'im in seconds.

You mean the mission where Sidious was holding back the whole time?

Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.
-- Lords Of The Sith

If this is what your argument regarding Ahsoka and Vader's speed hinges upon, then Ahsoka's speed really doesn't measure up to DOE Bane's.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually Kas'im is stated to have held back several techniques.
Prior to whipping out Jar'kai though nothing Kas'im tried phased Bane :/

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless that's not the point, the point is Bane was only able to respond to his moves because he was largely familiar with how Kas'im employed them (and let's not pretend the seven styles have remained static for over a 1,000 years, or ignore that Ahsoka wields the same Jar'Kai style that he omitted to instruct Bane in) not because of sheer skill, and when that advantage was removed he was utterly outclassed.
Kas'im perfected every move and sequence, and some of them blend several forms, so no matter what combination of forms Kas'im tried prior to Jar'kai he couldn't hold him off. Given that much versatility Kas'im could've applied them basically however he wanted.

And I don't see what you mean by "that advantage." Kas'im had the same familiarity with Bane's technique, so its no surprise that Kas'im would get the edge when fighting with a form Bane's completely unfamiliar with while he has intimate familiarity with Bane's technique. You're acting like Kas'im switching to something Bane was unfamiliar with is somehow an even neutral playing field, but it's not, it's heavily skewed in Kas'im's favor.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This is not proof of skill, its proof of familiarity with how Kas'im fought and inferiority to a duelist of stellar ability. Though frankly the real reason he had any advantage at all was because of his significant Force advantage, which prior to abusing, he's was barely holding Kas'im back.
He was using his connection to the Force through lightsaber combat, so I don't really see why people use this as a reason why Bane's performance against Kas'im isn't indicative of his practical dueling ability when it clearly is.

Also, before Bane drew upon the force that deeply when Kas'im was almost overwhelming him, this was due to a speed advantage Kas'im had at that point in their fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because he's the more accomplished swordsman? Talent he can pass on to his student? Granted Kas'im is aware of more styles but that doesn't necessarily make him better when Anakin can instruct in a few styles to a better degree.

And frankly Anakin's inexperience as a teacher doesn't preclude him being excellent at it, especially considering he's a practical genius, and Ahsoka had nothing but praise for him.
Kas'im as far as technical mastery goes mastered all seven forms and spent decades afterwards perfecting several moves and sequences. I'm not sure to what further degree Anakin should be capable of teaching the forms. Plus Kas'im has a lot more experience than Anakin as a teacher, with particular emphasis on dueling instruction. Ahsoka is literally the first person Anakin ever trained.

Quite frankly, I don't see the evidence for your assertion that Anakin is a better teacher.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
According to what source or is this just your opinion? Because if it is I don't share it.
His performances against the other two best duelists of his day.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Rather a wasted effort there considering Bane is an inferior duellist to the pair of them. He was only able to drive them back because of his significant Force advantage (and against Lsu the nigh invulnerability of his orbalisks), not because of his skill.
His fight with Kas'im demonstrates a level of practical application of dueling Bane could bring to bare at that point in time regardless. And Bane demonstrates in his final duel with Zannah a level of offensive at the beginning that ROT Zannah would not have survived while ROT Zannah survived longer than that against ROT Bane, ergo Bane is a greater offensive duelist by DOE.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's beside the point? Not only was I discussing Maul but we are talking about Ahsoka's merits as a duellist here, not how well she performed against Vader (or Maul), and whether or not Bane can replicate that.
I'd say him outmaneuvering BM amped Raskta who has Grievous+ level speed and a penchant for predicting her opponents moves prior to becoming faster and a lot more unpredictable, as well as driving back Raskta, an opponent with Grievous level speed alongside two other Jedi, all prior to his peak suggests he could surpass Ahsoka's performances against Maul and Vader.

And regardless of orbalisk armor, when Zannah fell on her back, Bane was free to go on an all-out offensive against her since she was in no position to counter attack, and despite this Zannah was able to get out from under this offensive. With that in mind I definitely think she could defend against whatever offensive Ahsoka could muster.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We're also discussing sabers only, keep up dear.
Oh I'm just preempting anyone trying to say Ahsoka takes all-out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your point being?

Regardless considering Vader retooled his fighting style to accommodate for his suit whereas Ahsoka merely built on her's, and considering Anakin taught Ahsoka and not the other way around, any advantage is going to go to him in that regard. Which has also been confirmed.
But Bane taught Zannah and not the other way around and Bane didn't reveal parts of his style to Zannah as well, plus Ahsoka was on the retreat in that fight just as Zannah was retreating against Bane. There is no more or less of an advantage for Ahsoka against Vader than there was for Zannah against Bane.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Bane has nothing on contending equally with one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history, despite having a Force augmentative disadvantage."
Forge augmentative disadvantage? Prove that first of all. Secondly outmaneuvering BM Raskta is something he has on her.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So are a lot of people. Which is very nice, but how are his defensive capabilities relevant when we are discussing his offensive ability to press Zannah?
It demonstrates the depth of his technical mastery, whereas we don't have any information relating to Ahsoka's technical mastery, only her practical application of dueling, which makes me question why you're making such a big deal about it to begin with.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wonderful, but perfection in application does not follow on from perfection in practice, not does it speak of the number or complexity of techniques he has mastered. Altogether, how does any of this prove his is on level with Maul?
And what complexity does Ahsoka have in her techniques? She left the order as a padawan, is there any proof she stumbled upon some super complex techniques after she left the order? I could see her refining the skills she has and picking up a trick or two, but I don't see her stumbling upon some shit so advanced Zannah wouldn't be able to keep up.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's the wrong question. Rather what evidence is there that suggests Zannah can defend indefinitely against someone at least equal to Darth Maul in skill?
Holding off an offensive greater than the one Bane brought to bare on Tython combined while on her back.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, but you'll notice I never stated Ahsoka could perform as well as Xaj, merely pointed out a precedent for Zannah being overwhelmed by someone possessing sufficiently superior skill.
If you're acting like this is something specifically related to Zannah, then a weakness she displayed on Tython is no confirmation the same holds true for DOE Zannah. Plus it was more than just his technique, it was the BM as well.

If this is just a general truth for any duelists, its self evident logic and I'm not sure what the point of you bringing up the Tython fight is.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless do you have a source for that or is it an assumption?
The Book of Sith confirms that the saberstaff is ideal for taking on multiple opponents and defending against blasterfire. The implication in both of those statements is that the saberstaff particularly when twirled in a circular motion is good for multi-angular assaults. Plus there's the basic logical understanding that twirling a staff into a defensive shield in front of you provides quite a bit of defensive coverage that would be well suited to dealing with multiangular offensives.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Zannah's form is already stated to be near-perfect defensively as of RoT, doesn't seem much room for improvement
Bane's defenses in POD were stated to be impenetrable, yet they are vastly superior by DOE as the rainstorm feat proves.

You aren't seriously suggesting Zannah didn't improve much as a duelist between ROT and DOE are you?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uh-huh, I'm sure that Bane attacked her from as many angles as he was able. But the fact remains his range of options would have been limited by his frontal assault.

So unless Bane attacked from above, behind and side to side, this assertion she can defend against every conceivable angle with ease is false. Not that I ever denied she's well suited to an omni-direction assault in general, just that it will be more taxing.
Literally every opponent she's fought has attacked her from multiple angles.

Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time.
-Rule of Two

In contrast, the big man attacked her from creative and unexpected angles, the massive blue blades changing course midthrust.
-Rule of Two

His fury allowed him to call upon the dark side, making him even more dangerous as he unleashed his next series of attacks. Leaping high in the air, crouching low to the ground, lunging forward, springing back, spinning, twisting, and twirling, he came at her from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage meant to overwhelm her defenses, only to have Zannah turn his efforts back with a cool, almost casual, efficiency.
-Dynasty of Evil

He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above.
-Dynasty of Evil

Bane circled wide trying to come in on her left flank. Zannah simply altered the angle of her retreat, taking several more steps backward to keep him at a safe distance as she swatted away a few token slashes and strikes.
-Dynasty of Evil

So yeah, Zannah has demonstrated herself to be capable of handling multi-angular offensives, her fighting style is optimized for handling multi-angular offensives, and if Ahsoka uses her agility to attack Zannah from a different side, it would take Zannah less time to make the far more minimal movement of pivoting to meet Ahsoka, which Zannah could easily do since the Book of Sith confirms her fighting style places emphasis on footwork, and when she's demonstrated speed enough with her footwork to dodge several blasts of lightning in quick succession while charging forwards.

I do still intend to reply, but Homestuck happened again as you can probably tell. I will try to reply tomorrow as I think I have some different points than DBM not that I'm reading these wall o' texts atm.

Raskta has Grevious+ levels of speed?

@DMB

Can't really afford to go biblical with my responses these days, so if I find time to respond this evening it will be a to a few key points.

Who wouldn't want to put 2 hours into writing a response?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DMB

Can't really afford to go biblical with my responses these days, so if I find time to respond this evening it will be a to a few key points.
http://media0.giphy.com/media/L02M3FJhkF19S/giphy.gif

Lmao

Dmb seems to have covered things pretty dang well, but I'll give my take on it just because I'm not gonna chicken out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis?

On every basis? I mean DMB has gone into quite a bit of detail on the logical progression of Bane's speed. Bane was so fast he was able to appear to be wielding a dozen lightsabers at once to Zannah's force enhanced perceptions and DoE Bane is stated to be faster than that by her. Plus lol rain feat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, so Bane was able to respond to every move Kas'im had taught him to counter, except the moves he hadn't taught him to counter? Lel, I think it's pretty evident why that was the case, along with being significantly stronger in the Force.

And Ahsoka did finish her training, she was granted the title of Jedi Knight but rejected it. Training she received from Anakin Skywalker i.e. a better teacher than Kas'im.

Yes, it's evident that Bane knew how to counter his every move, which is all of them. Do you like, have a point with that? Bane knew "every possible sequence, series, move, and trick" Kas'im had outside of his trump card and could counter them all. Since Kas'im knew every move of every form, that's a ridiculous amount of technical skill Bane possesses.

Ahsoka was offered that when the Jedi Council was trying to make up for their f*ck up. So more of a "please forgive us" instead of a "you've earned this". And so what? So she was good enough to be a freaking Jedi Knight? That doesn't mean her skills were up to the standards we're talking about here. You're suggesting she has greater technical skill than people like Bane, Sarro, Raskta and Kas'im. You think someone who barely qualified as a Jedi Knight is up to scratch?

Also Anakin is not a better teacher than Kas'im. That's ****ing retarded. Kas'im has a ridiculous amount more teaching experience than Anakin does, he was a perfect master of all lightsaber forms unlike Anakin and he was skilled enough to create hundreds of thousands of moves and sequences for all lightsaber forms in multiple lightsaber variations. Ahsoka was the first person Anakin trained, while he was still learning himself.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless Bane has nothing on contending equally with one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in galactic history, despite having a Force augmentative disadvantage.

"Technical skill" isn't that important a factor in TCW and Rebels duels. Being able to contend with someone isn't an indication of comparable skill. Luminara call's Ventress sloppy and amateurish right before Ventress beats her. 5th Bro was contending with Ahsoka for like 2 minutes. Is he Vader level in skill? Seriously, is Ahsoka even a master of a single lightsaber form? Bane could easily replicate Ahsoka's feat and contend with Vader just like she could.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Um yes, because with Bane on the offense, it is Zannah whose going to be in a position to predict and counter his familiar attacks, not the other way around.

Um no, because Zannah's fighting style isn't reliant on predicting and countering her opponents attacks. She presents a spinning wall of defense and simply deflects attacks. Bane is the one who should be looking for weakpoints in her technique. He didn't find any and he was the one who taught her and designed for style. So how is Ahsoka going to find anything?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And considering Ahsoka possesses a greater level of technical skill than Bane, I'd disagree. Regardless that argument was never made. If Zannah is going to be overwhelmed it will be by virtue of her inability to effectively counter the sheer level of technique her opponent is practicing, as was the case in her duel against Xaj.

Ahsoka isn't a greater technical duelist than Bane. He has far more mastery of lightsaber techniques than she does and is intimately familiar with Zannah's techniques and weapon. He designed both of them and had hundreds of training duels and 20 years of prep to figure out a way to beat her. Ahsoka ain't doing shit.

Firstly, Ahsoka isn't as or more skilled as Sarro was. He had obsessively perfect technique. Secondly it wasn't just his "sheer level of technique" that was wearing down Zannah, it was his sheer size, strength and speed as well as the Battle Meditation fueling him. DoE Zannah won't have this problem with Ahsoka.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Granted Zannah's defensive capabilities will provide her some advantage, but the fact remains that a more omnidirectional assault will put a greater strain on her defences than a solely frontal one, like the kind Bane employed.

As Dmb has pointed out, Bane was coming at her from all angles including circling around her and attacking her from above. Similarly he was also doing this in RoT. Ahsoka's not going to be able to get behind Zannah either with her pivoting to face her instantly so I don't think that's worth even considering.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What has Bane's stamina got to do with this?

Bane and Zannah have similar levels of Force reserves to draw upon and Zannah was trained to outlast her opponents, Bane specifically. It's not hard to figure out she'd be at least comparable to him in this regard.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And it was almost two minutes of fighting against Vader, who well before his prime left Dooku exhausted and defeated in seconds. Granted Zannah's form nets her a stamina edge, but the fact remains Ahsoka will give her a marathon engagement, in which her Zannah will have plenty of opportunities to succumb to her opponent's superior skill or trip on a grave.

Firstly, lol Zonakin and secondly lol Dooku's like 80 years old. Stamina is not his strong point. And as we've pointed out, Ahsoka doesn't have a skill advantage. This is also a neutral environment so no indications of any graves.