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Force sabers all out

Duel takes place on neutral ground

Syndicate dies

Kek, Caedus.

Starkiller. Caedus. Either way.

Caedus is close to Prime Luke level.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Caedus is close to Prime Luke level.

Nah, he really isn't.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Caedus is close to Prime Luke level.
Nah, Caedus got completely shat on and was fighting for the most basic survival by Luke that just escaped from his detonated starfighter.

Syndicate Starkiller still dies though

Saying Caedus is close to Prime Luke is suicidal. Sorry.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nah, he really isn't.

Caedus can kill Luke tbh.




Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Saying Caedus is close to Prime Luke is suicidal. Sorry.

Maybe I wanna die.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian

Maybe I wanna die.

Livestream pls, Caseiden didn't deliver

Caedus. They're similar in terms of power; Starkiller probably even has a edge. But Caedus has more powers at his disposal, he's a much better duelist, and he's more refined in general.

And he's a fvcking tank.

Sas, I miss your consistent presence. Join the war.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus. They're similar in terms of power; Starkiller probably even has a edge. But Caedus has more powers at his disposal, he's a much better duelist, and he's more refined in general.

And he's a fvcking tank.

What are some of Caedus's powers that tilt this in his favor in your opinion?

Also while I agree Caedus is extremely durable Galen is as well.

Force illusions/telepathic attacks

He once created the illusion of a room in Dark Nest, tricked a group of like 6-7 predators that they couldn't eat Luke/them in NJO, and caused Mara to see an illusion of Ben.

I'm sure there is a ****ing ton I'm forgetting as well

Originally posted by carthage
Force illusions/telepathic attacks

Which neither Sidious nor Darth Vader attacked him with despite being proficient in its use. Given Galen was also able to rip information out of the mind of a stormtrooper and thought the vision he saw when fighting Kota was some sort of telepathic attack that he was preparing to defend against I doubt it's an area of weakness for him. Just curious has Caedus used these types of attack mid combat?

Originally posted by carthage
I'm sure there is a ****ing ton I'm forgetting as well

Can't really check because Ant is taking a ****ing decade to put out the Caedus respect thread.

"They didn't, therefore they couldn't"

Kek.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"They didn't, therefore they couldn't"

Kek.

You think Vader might have considered it had it been viable when Galen had him in his force grip.

He was also able to like reach through time and telepathically touch Leia as well as use Battle mind/battle med to influence entire fleets at the Battle of Fondor in LOTF. He can **** Galen's mind pretty hard if he wanted too

Originally posted by Syndicate
You think Vader might have considered it had it been viable when Galen had him in his force grip.

Horrific logic. Vitiate didn't TP Scourge and Meetra, even though he had ample opportunity, because he couldn't. Vitiate knocked the Jedi strike team unconscious and then dominated them, and didn't dominate them outright because he couldn't. Yoda didn't TK Dooku because he couldn't. Etc.

Originally posted by carthage
He was also able to like reach through time and telepathically touch Leia as well as use Battle mind/battle med to influence entire fleets at the Battle of Fondor in LOTF. He can **** Galen's mind pretty hard if he wanted too

I'd question how the first has a practical use in combat. I'd point you at C'baoth's feat of instantly taking hold of 10,000 sentient beings, Affecting the minds of non force users and affecting the mind of a force user are far different in scope and scale. Also you didn't answer my question. Has he demonstrated feats like these mid combat? DE Sidious has superior feats to those you just listed but he was unable to do anything but maintain a force lock with a depleted Galen whilst in combat.

Also if you think Caedus could stomp Marek then why did you make this thread?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Horrific logic. Vitiate didn't TP Scourge and Meetra, even though he had ample opportunity, because he couldn't. Vitiate knocked the Jedi strike team unconscious and then dominated them, and didn't dominate them outright because he couldn't. Yoda didn't TK Dooku because he couldn't. Etc.

I agree with all the examples you've provided.

Syndicate get on fugging hangouts w/me and Quan

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Syndicate get on fugging hangouts w/me and Quan

Libraries kicking me out.

I'll be home in 20 minutes.

Good.

Originally posted by Syndicate
What are some of Caedus's powers that tilt this in his favor in your opinion?

As Carthage mentioned, his illusory powers could be helpful in a number of ways; it would certainly be a game changer if fighters are given basic knowledge of one another. Juno is a glaring weakness of Galen's, especially Starkiller.

That aside, considering that a fight can unfold in a myriad of different ways, having a wider range of abilities is generally a good advantage to have in any confrontation. Being able to adapt to changing situations is historically an important part of successful combat in the lore... Speculation might be more viable if the conditions of the fight are made more specific.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As Carthage mentioned, his illusory powers could be helpful in a number of ways; it would certainly be a game changer if fighters are given basic knowledge of one another. Juno is a glaring weakness of Galen's, especially Starkiller.

That aside, considering that a fight can unfold in a myriad of different ways, having a wider range of abilities is generally a good advantage to have in any confrontation. Being able to adapt to changing situations is historically an important part of successful combat in the lore... Speculation might be more viable if the conditions of the fight are made more specific.

Fair enough. We'll wait for the OP to specify.

This is a spite tbh, Caedus dominates. It's been stated that Vader and Starkiller together could not defeat the Emperor. Caedus alone put Luke in a bacta tank for quite a long time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is a spite tbh, Caedus dominates. It's been stated that Vader and Starkiller together could not defeat the Emperor. Caedus alone put Luke in a bacta tank for quite a long time.

There's a third person statement of such? If you could be so good as to provide it I'd be grateful. Caedus gets dominated in every single way by Luke. Trust me that's not a comparison you want to make.

Who doesn't get dominated in every single way by luke?
Caedus actually gave luke a good fight
Starkiller is vader tier while caedus is well above vader as stated by luke himself

Except he didn't give Luke a good fight.

He mused he might be. And given the fact that Vader always held back against Luke in their fights I'd much rather stick to actual feats.

Originally posted by Syndicate
There's a third person statement of such? If you could be so good as to provide it I'd be grateful. Caedus gets dominated in every single way by Luke. Trust me that's not a comparison you want to make.

https://books.google.com/books?id=gC1DWjXultEC&pg=PT87&dq=legacy+of+the+force+invincible+bacta+tank&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTl_S4-I3MAhWBND4KHboKBlYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage& amp;q=legacy%20of%20the%20force%20invincible%20bac
ta%20tank&f=false

EDIT: search for bacta tank for an entire week.

Luke won that fight and Caedus did have the advantage of a few environmental traps, but it was still a better fight than Starkiller would've put up against a full-fledged Emperor.

The Emperor would've beaten Caedus in similar fashion to Luke, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Emperor would've beaten Caedus in similar fashion to Luke, though.

Maybe, but that would feed into my point, because The Emperor wouldn't be put into a bacta tank for a week in a fight against Galen Marek.

Luke vs. Caedus is a closer fight than Sidious vs. pre-vaapad Windu, who is comparable to or superior to Dooku as a swordsman, who is IMHO above Starkiller as a duelist.

Well, I do put Caedus over Starkiller anyway. The only area where Starkiller actually rivals him is in raw power.

Caedus

Caedus would take all rounds.

Originally posted by hutchy1345

Starkiller is vader tier while caedus is well above vader as stated by luke himself

Nah, Caedus is Vader tier too tbh. He's on the higher end, whereas Starkiller is on the lower end, though.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
https://books.google.com/books?id=gC1DWjXultEC&pg=PT87&dq=legacy+of+the+force+invincible+bacta+tank&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTl_S4-I3MAhWBND4KHboKBlYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage& amp;q=legacy%20of%20the%20force%20invincible%20bac
ta%20tank&f=false

EDIT: search for bacta tank for an entire week.

Luke won that fight and Caedus did have the advantage of a few environmental traps, but it was still a better fight than Starkiller would've put up against a full-fledged Emperor.

I disagree with that assessment especially given the emotional state Luke was in at the time which is hinted to have hindered him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Maybe, but that would feed into my point, because The Emperor wouldn't be put into a bacta tank for a week in a fight against Galen Marek.

Luke vs. Caedus is a closer fight than Sidious vs. pre-vaapad Windu, who is comparable to or superior to Dooku as a swordsman, who is IMHO above Starkiller as a duelist.

If Galen had all the circumstantial advantages Caedus did I'd say he could.

Like having his kidney punctured before the fight even begins?

Originally posted by Trocity
Like having his kidney punctured before the fight even begins?

Which was stated to have made him more powerful?

Caedus did as well as he did by fighting smart which I do doubt would've worked as well against a level headed Luke.

So you subscribe to the idea that Jaina is a top tier?

Caedus had one arm and a hole in his chest in their fight, he musta been uber amped mang.

Luke was definitely fighting to kill, but he was also fighting like a retard.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Caedus did as well as he did by fighting smart which I do doubt would've worked as well against a level headed Luke.

Yep. An emotional Luke suffering from preexisting injuries which Caedus focused on causing more damage to in an environment he knew well when the pain from his injury was stated to have empowered him and Luke was still beating a Caedus attempting to flee. :6

Caedus's illusions have fooled Luke before. He also has shatterpoint and a bunch of other esoteric Force abilities in combination with having more raw power than Darth Vader, the second/third best damage soak in the mythos after Sion and maybe Maul, and vastly greater feats with a lightsaber. He crushes him, tbh.

Galen comes somewhat close to him (as in, Dooku to Vader) in raw power, but loses out in every other category. These modest but numerous disadvantages aggregate into a curbstomp.

Given his feats don't reflect his supposed superiority to Vader who imo always held back against his son as he wanted to turn him to the dark side and this is based off Luke's musings I don't buy that.

Vastly greater feats with a lightsaber? So you're saying getting your lightsaber almost knocked out of your hands by a heavily injured Luke and dodging and blocking blows as you attempt to run away is vastly superior to out dueling Vader? Lol.

Galen absolutely destroys him in raw power.

You're delusional. Caedus's illusions won't be the deciding factor against a more powerful and comparably skilled duelist.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Given his feats don't reflect his supposed superiority to Vader

Putting Luke in a bacta tank for a week? Deflecting turbolaser bolts? Shattering besk'ar with a touch? Fooling Luke with illusions? Yeah, sure.



We get Vader's PoV in the RotJ novel. If he was holding back, he didn't know it himself.

(Also Luke was holding back even more...)



It's actually based off of the preview in the hard cover version.

He's also stated to be the second most powerful person in the galaxy, so he's above Kyp Durron.



Did you actually read the passage? He makes Luke scream several times and, according to C3PO in Invincible, Luke had to spend a week in a bacta tank. Caedus lost, but he did pretty damn well for how he was doing.

Now, what has Starkiller done with a lightsaber? Struggle against Kota and Shaak Ti? Struggle against random shadow guards? Get overpowered by a pre-prime Vader who couldn't seem to overwhelm an old and over-the-hill Kenobi?

Starkiller and Vader together wouldn't have beaten Palpatine. Caedus alone posed a legitimate danger to Luke. Now look at the dark side ending in TFUI; Sidious two shots him.




Galen is pre-prime Vader's level. Caedus put up a fight against Luke. I don't see how they're comparable at all.



He fools both Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker (one of the best illusionists of all time) with them.

Let's review all of the advantages Caedus has in this rather one-sided affair:


He's explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader according to the narrator, who by RotJ had probably surpassed Galen. Your personal disagreement with canon statements does not negate what's written.
He has incorporated into combat illusions which can fool the most powerful non-entity/amped Force wielder of all time.
He has ridiculous pain tolerance, feeling confident in fighting anyone in the galaxy but Skywalker with one arm.
He knows shatterpoint, .ie fold space, and a bunch of other estoeric Force abilities Galen's probably never heard of.
He has put Luke in a bacta tank for a week, albeit ultimately losing, while Galen struggles against Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota.
He's considered by the main characters to be the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy, .ie above dorvin-basil moving, "I'm stronger than Luke" Kyp Durron.


There is basically nothing that Galen Marek has over Caedus, who is probably the third, fourth or fifth most powerful sith lord of all time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Putting Luke in a bacta tank for a week? Deflecting turbolaser bolts? Shattering besk'ar with a touch? Fooling Luke with illusions? Yeah, sure.



We get Vader's PoV in the RotJ novel. If he was holding back, he didn't know it himself.

(Also Luke was holding back even more...)



It's actually based off of the preview in the hard cover version.

He's also stated to be the second most powerful person in the galaxy, so he's above Kyp Durron.



Did you actually read the passage? He makes Luke scream several times and, according to C3PO in Invincible, Luke had to spend a week in a bacta tank. Caedus lost, but he did pretty damn well for how he was doing.

Now, what has Starkiller done with a lightsaber? Struggle against Kota and Shaak Ti? Struggle against random shadow guards? Get overpowered by a pre-prime Vader who couldn't seem to overwhelm an old and over-the-hill Kenobi?

Starkiller and Vader together wouldn't have beaten Palpatine. Caedus alone posed a legitimate danger to Luke. Now look at the dark side ending in TFUI; Sidious two shots him.




Galen is pre-prime Vader's level. Caedus put up a fight against Luke. I don't see how they're comparable at all.



He fools both Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker (one of the best illusionists of all time) with them.

Let's review all of the advantages Caedus has in this rather one-sided affair:


He's explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader according to the narrator, who by RotJ had probably surpassed Galen. Your personal disagreement with canon statements does not negate what's written.
He has incorporated into combat illusions which can fool the most powerful non-entity/amped Force wielder of all time.
He has ridiculous pain tolerance, feeling confident in fighting anyone in the galaxy but Skywalker with one arm.
He knows shatterpoint, .ie fold space, and a bunch of other estoeric Force abilities Galen's probably never heard of.
He has put Luke in a bacta tank for a week, albeit ultimately losing, while Galen struggles against Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota.
He's considered by the main characters to be the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy, .ie above dorvin-basil moving, "I'm stronger than Luke" Kyp Durron.


There is basically nothing that Galen Marek has over Caedus, who is probably the third, fourth or fifth most powerful sith lord of all time.

Given the circumstances of the first feat, the fact that Vader has replicated the second, the question of if Caedus's has ever actively used shatterpoint in combat and the fact that Galen has already faced and overcome similar illusions, yes.

Luke was holding back only in so much as he didn't want to kill his father and subsequently turn to the Dark Side. Vader was holding back as he wanted to turn his son to the Dark Side and use him an ally to defeat Sidious. Of course Luke's perception of Vader is going to be off especially given Vader never attempted to actively ragdoll him at the most only testing him on Bespin by throwing objects at him.

Quote? Also regardless the Plagueis novel states that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord in history on the back cover. I wouldn't take it as gospel.

By catching Luke off guard by throwing a Vong torture rack at him and focusing on an already wounded area of Luke's body. Given the circumstances I should hope he would do that well otherwise all sense of stakes would have been lost.

Aside from being stated to have nearly perfected lightsaber combat he out dueled Vader 2 years before ANH where he has already accomplished some of his best feats, been stated to have reworked his form to compensate for any of the suit's weaknesses and employ multiple forms in his fighting style and has on top of all his experience and knowledge as Anakin, all of his experience and knowledge from 17 years of being the Emperor's enforcer thus making him highly more skilled then his RotS incarnation. Also all those feats you mention are after Galen has fought through entire armies and before his prime. Also he never struggled with shadow guards either choking them or electrocuting them to death in the novelizations.

That's debatable actually given Galen and Vader's various feats in comparison to Sidious. Also the dark side ending is non canon. Caedus was effortlessly pinned to his chair by a Luke Skywalker that didn't even have to gesture. He was in retreat the whole time against a wounded emotionally unstable Luke who was poisoned and had his injury aggravated throughout the fight. Stop exaggerating Caedus's performance.

Galen is imo above RotJ Vader level and as we've seen is undeniably superior to Vader by TFU which is 2 years before ANH. Maybe because if you compare their actual force feats you'll realize Galen outstrips him in every category?

And? Explain how it will tip a confrontation between them in his favor rather then saying "Ermagerd dere su gud."

And Plagueis is stated to be more powerful then Vitiate. Do you also believe that?

And? Explain how you think that will affect the fight rather then wanking it as something amazing that will allow him to instantly win.

As does Galen having resisted the heat of lightsaber blades BEFORE being remade stronger then before.

Explain how that will help him in an actual confrontation then. Also if you don't mind I'd appreciate if you provided me a quote where he uses fold space or shatterpoint whilst in combat.

A pre prime Galen beats both Shaak and Kota after fighting his way through entire armies you mean and Caedus put an already wounded emotionally hindered Luke in the bacta tank by constantly retreating, throwing poison racks, abusing Ben's presence and focusing on Luke's wounded area.

Considering he seemed to struggle to manipulate a space fighter I doubt he could replicate such a feat.

Lol. Until Caedus has actual feats proving he's a superior force user or even a superior duelist then Galen don't bother responding.

Kyp Durron would beat Starkiller
Caedus > kyp
I don't see any argument here
Caedus folds space his lightsaber into starkillers brain and game over
You said getting beat by an injured luke is embarassing? Starkiller would've been vaporized if he replaced caedus in that fight with luke
Caedus >> Peak Vader >/= Peak Starkiller
Argument over

lol n00b

Hutchy you make me physically ill.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Kyp Durron would beat Starkiller
Caedus > kyp
I don't see any argument here
Caedus folds space his lightsaber into starkillers brain and game over
You said getting beat by an injured luke is embarassing? Starkiller would've been vaporized if he replaced caedus in that fight with luke
Caedus >> Peak Vader >/= Peak Starkiller
Argument over

Before I address that steaming heap you just laid down mind quoting me the passage where Luke and Caedus fight so I can more easily reference it? If not then at least remind me of the novel their fight takes place in so I can quote it myself.

Inferno.

^ Thank you.

First off upon reading the passage it appears Caedus couldn't even sense Luke's presence in the Force even when he had prior warning. This further supports Caedus's utter inability to compare to Luke as a force user who has also as I've mentioned casually pinned Caedus to a chair without gesturing or making any movements at all. Another good example exemplifying the gap between Caedus and Luke is force users is this little scene.

"He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising. Bad mistake. Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang." - Inferno.

Even when Luke is trapped in a Vong torture device being poisoned and his sense being dulled Caedus is incapable of holding him in place with the Force.

Putting that to the side for now let's address the rest of your post.

Luke not only had a bad knee but a chest wound from his duel with Lumiya.

"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps." - Inferno.

And not only only was Caedus clever with his environment he was completely familiar with it as well. Given this fight takes place on neutral ground he won't have the same advantages he held in his fight against Luke.

It's also specifically mentions that Caedus's pain empowered him making him stronger and faster.

"But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster." - Inferno.

Also you should make note that Caedus is on the defensive for the entirety of the fight and attempts to flee as soon as he is able to disengage with Luke.

"Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke." - Inferno.

"Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber." - Inferno.

"They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door. Jacen was running." - Inferno.

"Then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness." - Inferno.

It should also be noted that whenever he actually does engage Luke directly, even hindered as Luke is during the entirety of the fight, he gets trashed.

"Landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it." - Inferno.

"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter." - Inferno.

"Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin. The garrote went completely slack." - Inferno.

This is despite Luke growing progressively more and more injured by Caedus's tricks and the aggravation of his prior wounds.

"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps." - Inferno.

"He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin." - Inferno.

"Holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing." - Inferno.

"Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down." - Inferno.

"A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood." - Inferno.

"Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire." - Inferno.

Hell even with his amped physical strength Caedus can't even keep Luke from forcing his blade to cut into his shoulder.

"Beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder." - Inferno.

So to sum it all up we have an amped Caedus fighting an injured Luke in a setting he is intimately familiar with and still being on the defensive for the entirety of the duel and attempting to run away whenever possible, not to mention Luke being distracted by the presence of Ben during the entirety of the fight.

""Wait!" Ben cried from behind him. "Let me do it!" Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen's lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair's lashing tentacles. Luke shook his head. "I don't think so, Ben." "You have to!" Ben insisted. "I deserve it!" "Deserve it?" Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. "To kill someone?" "You don't understand, "Ben insisted. "It was my fault. If I don't do this..." "I said no, "Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? "You're very confused, Ben. We'll talk about this later." Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free." - Inferno.

His son's presence is even used by Caedus to maneuver him into a trap.

"Luke pressed forward, angling toward the Embrace to keep Jacen away from Ben. Jacen fought his way over anyway, placing himself squarely between Luke and the chair, then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness. Luke Force-leapt after him, knowing that this Jacen- the Jacen he had caught torturing his son-would not hesitate to take Ben hostage... or to kill him. Luke landed half a meter in front of Jacen's lightsaber and quickly beat down his nephew's guard-too quickly. When he did not glimpse a face in the light of his own blade, Luke knew something was wrong and stopped. Which was exactly what Jacen was waiting for, of course." - Inferno.

To address your powerscaling argument I would actually not disagree with you that RotJ Luke is a match for RotJ Vader as a duelist. I also would say that Galen being around that level as a duelist is accurate as well.

Actually, I do. If RotJ Luke was as merciless as, as familiar with the area, and as powerful as Caedus along with holding the same advantages over Luke that Caedus did during the fight, not to mention being amped by his own pain, I believe he could replicate such a performance.

Given you have yet to prove such I'd love to hear why you think that would be.

He withstands illusions on Kashyyyk similar to the ones Luke faced on Dagobah. While we don't know if Luke by Inferno would or would not have I'm simply saying that Galen has experience with dealing with illusions.

Are you posting from your phone or something?

Originally posted by Syndicate
First off upon reading the passage it appears Caedus couldn't even sense Luke's presence in the Force even when he had prior warning. This further supports Caedus's utter inability to compare to Luke as a force user who has also as I've mentioned casually pinned Caedus to a chair without gesturing or making any movements at all. Another good example exemplifying the gap between Caedus and Luke is force users is this little scene.


Luke had invented a new Force concealment technique. Regardless, we're talking about dueling ability here. In raw power Caedus is explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader, who at least won't get ragdolled by Starkiller -> force a duel.



Such wounds typically don't compensate for substantial differences in ability...like the difference between FotJ Luke and RotJ Luke (= RotJ Vader).



So? He got past Luke's guard even without those advantages.



Yes, that's a point in Caedus's favor...



Yes, Luke is clearly better than him, but Caedus still gets several good hits in, some of which make Luke scream. Bad knee or no; Darth Maul with a broken ankle was still able to defeat Qui Gon, and a drugged Bane was still able to fend off Zannah. You're focused way too much on the knee.



Read the actual novelization; Vader thinks Luke is on his level. Galen vs. Vader is close enough for the disparities to not affect my point.





Dark Empire Luke was dispatched by Wankatine in their first duel far more swiftly than Caedus was by Luke, and Luke's massive growth in power from RotJ was pointed out by like seven different people.

Legends Vader < RotS Anakin as a duelist, and RotS Anakin is probably < base Windu, yet Stover's novelization makes it clear that Windu was utterly helpless against Palpatine and would've died soon after the B-team without vaapad.

And no, I don't think Luke would've made Wankatine scream in pain if he'd had a bad knee, nor do I think that Vader could take Palpatine because he had a stomach cramp.



But the overall point is that Caedus is stronger than Vader in the Force, yet the ratio of his dueling ability to Force ability is much higher than Vader/Starkiller's (whose profiles are more slanted towards Force), so if the latter is in Caedus's favor, the former must be to a vaster degree.

Jesus Christ can you quote things normally?

Ah you ninja'ed me before I could post the second part to this.

Have fun getting to all of this, or not. No skin off my scrote.

"Lol. Third person unbiased statements are greater then your martial arts instructor's opinion."

"Not "cause I say so." But because the comparative feats support that idea and we've had statements and back covers that were inaccurate or just flat out wrong in the past. "

^ these quotes stuck out in the sea of utter fail for an interesting case study on cognitive dissonance.

Can I do it mr ellimist

edit: you edited ur post, but can I still do it

You also need to work on concealing things; you drop a lot of hints that this is the first time you've actually read the passage, despite having mocked me for apparently not reading it.

I never claimed to have read the passage beforehand. I was going off of ILS's analysis. To be completely honest I thought you were a troll for the most part ( still unsure on that ) and I wasn't expecting an actual debate. I wasn't mocking you for not having read the passage. I was mocking you for having misinterpreted it so badly.

Posts like this where you completely let the point of my actual post fly over your head stand out to me. Likely because you were so eager to pump out another trollish response.

"Read the actual novelization; Vader thinks Luke is on his level. Galen vs. Vader is close enough for the disparities to not affect my point."

This was in response to this.

"To address your powerscaling argument I would actually not disagree with you that RotJ Luke is a match for RotJ Vader as a duelist. I also would say that Galen being around that level as a duelist is accurate as well."

Where I'm actually agreeing with you.

Take the time to actually read my damn posts.

I'll refrain from responding to the rest until you can edit in the responses to the rest of my first post and the entirety of my second. Alert me when you've done so.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
cognitive dissonance.

I knew it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

cognitive dissonance.

...Zeilon?

Caedus because Starkiller's mind isnt all there, all Caedus needs to do is cast an illusion if Starkillers offensive is to much and bam.

Starkiller is dead.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Caedus because Starkiller's mind isnt all there, all Caedus needs to do is cast an illusion if Starkillers offensive is to much and bam.

Starkiller is dead.

Get out.

What this is Star killer right? TFU2 the clone right?

Or is this Galen Marek?

I took this as TFU Starkiller so my point remains.

It's Galen Marek but even if this was the Starkiller clone he wouldn't go crazy or die because of some illusion.

Yeah his mindset is all over Juno in TFU2 its damn near insane.

Hell Vader even knew Juno was the only way to control him.

If Caedus pulls the same thing he did to Mara Jade, it can leave the clone open to an attack. The illusion wont kill him but can prove to be a major downfall.

But thats if Caedus cant keep up with this variant of Galen Marek.

Caedus doesn't know the clone and we're not even discussing Caedus vs the clone but Caedus vs Marek as of now. Even if it was the clone though how would Caedus know to create an illusion of Juno?

As I said on the first page Galen takes Force, Caedus likely takes sabers and it could probably be argued either way for who takes it all out.

Force Illusions or madness pretty much hits the demons of the person themselves, Caeuds doesnt have to read his mind.

He just needs to attempt it.

Caedus doesnt have to know Juno or the clone to know to cast it when needed.

The Force illusion pretty much does the work, all the effected person needs is will power.

^Thats what I say about the clone.

As for Galen Marek I doubt it would work, because Galen has no demons...no real ones...maybe his father maybe....but it wont detract his game.
As for Galen over Caedus (force) is moot at best.

Hmmmm maybe not....both of them can take a hit.....can Galen survive the injuries Caedus had in his last days?

That's the case with Zannah's spells but I had not known that of Caedus's illusions. Would you please quote me an example of Caedus's illusions having this effect on someone he didn't know intimately?

He's already overcome his demons as we saw on Kashyyyk.

Galen has the superior feats. I don't know why you think it would be moot.

He likely can if I'm remembering Caedus's injuries correctly. He survived being electrocuted, being burned by lightsaber blades, blaster bolts, blunt force trauma and being left to drift in space before he was rebuilt stronger then before and after he was he survived getting a multiple ton stone table slammed into him with just a few cracked ribs where it would have killed him instantly beforehand.

Going to bed so if I don't respond I'm not ignoring you.

When he stared into Mara's eyes it automatically created the illusion there.
THough after rereading it (yes I have the book) She snarled at him wanting to prevent "her" from hurting Ben..yada yada...two handed chest vibro and saber strike at his chest....you know.

I dont think Caedus has to know Starkiller (clone) for him to do it, though it seemed to be out of desperation than anything else....but thats only if Starkiller can push him hard enough into the clutch.

I think most force Illusions do that in general, they simply prayed on there worst fears, they only take a moment, just a split second.

The Chiss and Zannah (Kal the Twi lek)
Exar kun (Im very sure)
Satal and Alemta (Tales of the Jedi) Where they tricked a battalion into thinking the rifle was a snake.
King Omin
Darth Wyrlokk vs Darth Krayt (though he know him) Im sure he can do that to just about anyone.

All Illusions do if the person doesn have the will is they might either scream, cry, crumble, kneel in pain, or swing at the invisible demons (Zannah and Xaj)

Syndicate, do you honestly believe that starkiller could've done better against luke than caedus did?
I don't see what's so shameful about being taken by surprise and ragdolled by probably the greatest force user of all time

Caedus admitted that he couldn't free himself later, though. And given how effortlessly Luke did pin him, I don't think surprise would've made too much of a difference.

Luke didn't do the same in their duel tho

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
When he stared into Mara's eyes it automatically created the illusion there.
THough after rereading it (yes I have the book) She snarled at him wanting to prevent "her" from hurting Ben..yada yada...two handed chest vibro and saber strike at his chest....you know.

I dont think Caedus has to know Starkiller (clone) for him to do it, though it seemed to be out of desperation than anything else....but thats only if Starkiller can push him hard enough into the clutch.

I think most force Illusions do that in general, they simply prayed on there worst fears, they only take a moment, just a split second.

The Chiss and Zannah (Kal the Twi lek)
Exar kun (Im very sure)
Satal and Alemta (Tales of the Jedi) Where they tricked a battalion into thinking the rifle was a snake.
King Omin
Darth Wyrlokk vs Darth Krayt (though he know him) Im sure he can do that to just about anyone.

All Illusions do if the person doesn have the will is they might either scream, cry, crumble, kneel in pain, or swing at the invisible demons (Zannah and Xaj)

There's a difference between sorcery and active illusions. Luke creating an illusion over Jaina to make Caedus think it was him or making Caedus think there was an entire fleet where there wasn't was an active effort. You'd have to prove first Caedus can use sorcery to create illusions of Starkiller/Galen's fear like Zannah could and then the argument descends into one willpower and resistance, one that is heavily opinion based.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Luke didn't do the same in their duel tho

That's because as I said he wasn't thinking clearly. He was solely focused on killing Caedus in the most painful way possible. Also in the text he does effortlessly pull Caedus back when he attempts to make a run for it.

"But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible." - Inferno.

"Luke spat out a mouthful of blood and Force-leapt after his nephew, at the same time reaching out to drag him back." - Inferno.

Either way it's luke skywalker he's god-tier lol starkiller would get wrecked by him too, difference being he wouldn't injure luke at all
Caedus was fast enough to catch luke off guard and almost hit him, what's stopping him speed blitzing starkiller, I don't recall any speed feats of similar magnitude

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Either way it's luke skywalker he's god-tier lol starkiller would get wrecked by him too, difference being he wouldn't injure luke at all
Caedus was fast enough to catch luke off guard and almost hit him, what's stopping him speed blitzing starkiller, I don't recall any speed feats of similar magnitude

I'd have to disagree with you there.

Outpacing Vader for one.

Have you responded to it all then?

Now, to lay the nail in the coffin to this walking allegory of the funniest American idol auditioners:



So what? He makes it clear that he thinks Luke compares to him as a duelist, an observation repeated in multiple sourcebooks. RotJ Luke is, at the very least, comparable to Vader as a duelist, and thus probably superior to Starkiller. It's not a matter of your opinion.

Now you have to defend your bizarre notion that ~40 years of advancement, multiple galactic wars, the discovery of multiple Jedi holocrons detailing lightsaber instruction, and the explicit observations of his growing power by multiple sources ranging from Lando to Emperor Palpatine could be negated by a bad knee. Maybe with real life athletes; not with combatants whose primary energy springs from the Force, and not from how well defined their muscles are.



Your reading comprehension is cringe-worthy. How could you not figure out what I was trying to say?



You fail to understand the distinction between upper and lower limits. Why am I not surprised?

Kyp Durron can manipulate dorvin basils and use freighters as telekinetic weapons, yet he does not think he can defeat Caedus. Why do you think Starkiller can, when even with Vader's help he doesn't think he can defeat Palpatine?



Caedus was getting hits in before and independent of the thorns.



Are you f*cking kidding me? He clearly lands a hit in against Luke, who them stumbles back and thinks "good, this was supposed to hurt." Not only are you so f*cking arrogant as to try to lecture me about the duel without having even read it, after reading it you can't even understand its English!



There's no such thing as a "light side nexus". And Caedus was able to fight Luke with an injured kidney, and later a Jaina amped to Luke-levels with one arm, so forgive me if I'm not too impressed that Starkiller can't beat Shaak Ti because he's tired. Mind you, if you were to actually read the fight (seeing a pattern here...) you'd notice neither an emphasis on his fatigue nor an absence of feats Shaak Ti pulled off that had nothing to do with her environmental advantages.



Holy sh*t, I can't believe the irony and hypocrisy of this statement never registered to you as you were typing. But even if we ignored how flagrantly you just conceded Caedus's superiority in the Force and your idiotic contesting of that canon declaration, the other half of the point still flies over your head. My martial art instructor probably understands when something is "nearly perfect" and when it isn't; he's not omniscient, but the probability that he is in error is small enough for it to not constitute a meaningful objection. The more relevant observation is that calling someone's form "nearly perfect" is neither a unique nor particularly impressive compliment. If you were to observe any modern swords master, you'd probably find their technique to be nearly perfect as well. You get that way when you're a master at something, which hundreds of Jedi during the PT were. And even if it were a remarkable accolade, we have no idea what "nearly perfect" means; is it 90% perfect? 80%? How does this compare to Caedus's technique? Why did you think this was something worth wasting time quoting?



Gillard states that RotS Anakin is in his prime in the context of lightsaber dueling.



No, the Death Star novel makes it clear that Vader has learned his lesson from trying to showboat against Obi Wan. It also makes it clear that Kenobi has gotten weaker. Sorry, but Starkiller is a sub-Dooku tier duelist going against someone who seriously injured someone more powerful than the Palpatine who made pre-vaapad Windu look like an utter fool.



So what? The objective here is to analyze how his fight with Luke places him relative to Starkiller's own ability. Your making statements like this in a vacuum tells me that you don't understand how to compare points A and B.



I can't find that particular quote at the moment, but I can pull from the SW database that Starkiller was "ultimately no match for the Emperor".



https://s3.amazonaws.com/wp-ag/wp-content/uploads/sites/72/2015/09/trumpeyebrows.gif

For some others I would assume that they were trolling, but with you I honestly can't tell.

Starkiller is "no match" for the Emperor, while Luke defeated the Emperor, and you think they're comparable.

Some nice logic there.




That's...called...outmaneuvering him.

But semantics aside, Caedus still gets in hits without the use of his torture rack.



I love how you dismiss analysis and arguments by just calling them "opinions" (as opposed to your ironclad Decrees, like Starkiller being comparable to LotF Luke).



Your red herring machine is still up and running, I see. The point is that he could not have just ragdolled him after Caedus got his guard up, or he would have. The fact that he eventually won the duel and could have killed him in any number of ways then is irrelevant to that particular observation.



Yes, I can see that you're being pretty lazy.





Do you honestly think that you can hold even the faintest candle to me in any intellectual capacity? Like, I'm sorry if that makes me sound arrogant - I'm only boasting about myself relative to you, which is hardly saying much.



I begin to wonder if your random topic switches signal dishonesty or just a lack of reading comprehension. Why do you arbitrarily limit the conversation to technical skill and not other factors that play into one's dueling ability, such as speed? Yes, Sidious was far faster than pre-vaapad Windu; Luke is faster than RotS Sidious, and couldn't blitz Caedus. Starkiller could not have lasted very long against Sidious in a duel, let alone Luke.

I'm assuming you've completed your response?

So let's summarize, *sshole:

1. Despite your arrogant lectures about the importance of "third party sources", you rest basically your entire argument on denying one of those third party sources that basically settles this debate. Notably, the canon statement that Caedus's strength in the Force exceeds that of his grandfather Darth Vader. You attempt to scurry around this by claiming that Caedus's feats are inferior to Starkiller's. Even if this were the case - and it is only in specific areas - you fail to recognize this as a consequence of Caedus not being in situations where he has to redirect falling star destroyers. Specifically, Caedus not doing X when not in the situation to have to try does not establish upper limits on his abilities. Why is this important? Because in order to go against a canon statement, you would have to show a substantial bodies of active contradictions with what happened, not merely that what happened doesn't actively support said statements. Different canon sources can stand on their own so long as they aren't contradicting one another; they don't need to be actively replicated.

2. You tried to belittle me on the specifics of Caedus's duel with Luke before having even read it yourself. Your fixation on Skywalker's knee and the Vong torture racks in a desperate attempt to salvage face pretty drastically misses the point. Caedus is not as good of a swordsman as Luke is, but he did far better against him than, say, Mace Windu did against Palpatine before vaapad kicked in, and if we translate these data points to Starkiller, we'd find that Starkiller, who is a lesser duelist than Windu, would have lasted far shorter against Luke, who is a greater one than Palpatine. All of the evidence converges towards Luke > Caedus >>> Starkiller, and all you can do is scream and shout out random red herrings.

3. RotJ Luke is around Vader's tier as a duelist, as Vader himself acknowledges. LotF Luke is so far beyond his younger self it's not even funny. The notion that RotJ Luke could've put himself as a grandmaster in a bacta tank for a week stretches credulity.

All of your weird topic-shifts (like pointing out that the B-team was slower than Palpatine, as though I wasn't allowed to talk about speed) and inability to understand the purpose of certain pieces of evidence (like talking about how Luke is better than Caedus, when the real question is analyzing how much better) point towards much failure in the basic art of debating. You should step down for a little bit and stop randomly insulting people who are better at it than you are.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm assuming you've completed your response?

Give it your best shot.

Sure got impassioned there near the end.

Don't worry I don't let enormous posts consisting of thousands of words dissuade me.

too many words...it went from a simple illusion to sorcery, though I think they are the same. Though sorcery seems to be more practiced, but Caedus, high potency in the force made it well worth it. Though it was raw...and out of panic im sure he can pull it off again.

B U M P

INB4 DC77 says Caedus.

OT-Starkiller

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sure got impassioned there near the end.

Don't worry I don't let enormous posts consisting of thousands of words dissuade me.

Originally posted by One Big Mob


>_>

<_<

:>

Caedus but SK gives him hell first.