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Full rest/recovery, victor is wins/100

Which ones does he beat (not sure about order)?

Warm-up/trash: Darth Bane
1. Marka Ragnos
2. Exar Kun
3. Shimrra
4. Hidden One
5. Dark-side Luke (Dark Empire)
6. UnuThul
7. Darth Caedus
8. Wankatine
9. Taalan (post pool of knowledge)
10. Lord Nyax
Boss: Abeloth

Round 2: Valkorion

loses to 5, 8, 9, boss

Could lose a lot of these actually

He should approach Boss in both rounds.

- Vitiate (as of Revan) shall approach Boss with difficulty.
- Valkorion shall approach Boss comfortably.

Warm-up/trash: Darth Bane - not worth discussing
1. Marka Ragnos - 10/10 (Vitiate), 10/10 (Valkorion)
2. Exar Kun - 10/10, 10/10
3. Shimrra - 3/10, 7/10
4. Hidden One - 5/10, 8/10
5. Dark-side Luke (Dark Empire) - 3/10, 4/10
6. UnuThul - 2/10, 3/10
7. Darth Caedus - 3/10, 5/10
8. Wankatine - 0/10, 0/10
9. Taalan (post pool of knowledge) - 0/10, 0/10
10. Lord Nyax - 0/10, 0/10
Boss: Abeloth - 0/10, 0/10

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Warm-up/trash: Darth Bane - not worth discussing
1. Marka Ragnos - 10/10 (Vitiate), 10/10 (Valkorion)
2. Exar Kun - 10/10, 10/10
3. Shimrra - 3/10, 7/10
4. Hidden One - 5/10, 8/10
5. Dark-side Luke (Dark Empire) - 3/10, 4/10
6. UnuThul - 2/10, 3/10
7. Darth Caedus - 3/10, 5/10
8. Wankatine - 0/10, 0/10
9. Taalan (post pool of knowledge) - 0/10, 0/10
10. Lord Nyax - 0/10, 0/10
Boss: Abeloth - 0/10, 0/10
Absolutely nonsensical assessment.

Vitiate or Valkorion would stop at Palpatine and onward.
But Valk has a chance to make it up to Taalon.

Didn't notice the Valkorion bit. He makes it to boss but goes down there.

Wtf is wankatine

DE Palps, DMB.

Seeing Vitiate fight Shimrra would be odd to see. A sorcerer vs someone who is force resistant.

5-8 then

Originally posted by Emperordmb
5-8 then
They are not stopping Valkorion.

And 5 - 7 are not stopping Vitiate when it was a nearly impossible task for a Strike Team comprising Revan, Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

Some ridiculous assumptions here.

Didn't see round 2. Round 2 I'd say 8

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Didn't see round 2. Round 2 I'd say 8
So how is he stopping Vitiate in disembodied form?

Uh, how does Vitiate stop Palpatine's disembodied form?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, how does Vitiate stop Palpatine's disembodied form? Tbf, a spirit fight between the two would probably end with Valkorion on top.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, how does Vitiate stop Palpatine's disembodied form?
It is a valid question.

Valkorion is significantly more powerful then Palpatine in disembodied form. A comparison in this spectrum will put to rest the debate that who is superior.

Lots of fanon nonsense in here.

Originally posted by Trocity
Lots of fanon nonsense in here.
Indeed.

Now, since you don't have an argument; answer my question: How can Palpatine stop Valkorion in disembodied form?

Palpatine's most impressive showings are through a physical vessel. He never managed to affect external environment and/or individuals in profound ways in disembodied form; he is not comparable to Valkorion in this spectrum (at all).

Palpatine this and that; ever thought about his strengths (and weaknesses) critically?

He can doe Force Storms; sadly this power doesn't affects spirits and similar manifestations either.

I wanna see you and Tempest debate, legend.

Not because he'll "crush you" I'm genuinely curious how'd that go.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I wanna see you and Tempest debate, legend.

Not because he'll "crush you" I'm genuinely curious how'd that go.
He will 'avoid' a debate with me on this subject. Trust me on this.

I will do a comparison between Palpatine and Valkorion in disembodied spectrum soon. It will be the end of it all.

is lord nyax really that powerful?
And unuthul?

Originally posted by hutchy1345
is lord nyax really that powerful?
And unuthul?
No.

Lord Nyax could legitimately threaten Vitiate as of Revan but he doesn't holds a candle to Valkorion.

UnuThul doesn't threatens either.

Warm-up/trash: Darth Bane

Bane's feats are nothing compared to Vitiate, he dies like a wimp.

1. Marka Ragnos
2. Exar Kun

Vitiate is canonically stronger than any sith before him. Exar might get in a few freak wins against the novel version if he can close the distance depending on starting position, but Valkorion has apparently gotten better at defending himself close quarters; he dispatches them with ease.

3. Shimrra

I don't remember if Shimrra's immunity to the Force extends to Force lightning. If it does, she probably rushes novel Vitiate and cuts him down before he can realize that his attacks aren't working. Valkorion probably still wins given his superior power set; he can deflect Shimrra's attacks, teleport away, and then projectile spam him.

4. Hidden One

The Hidden One lasted a decent time against Luke, but lots of people do; Luke doesn't tend to curbstomp people. He managed to pick Skywalker back with his lightning but otherwise failed to do any serious damage to him. I'd put him above Dooku and maybe Vader as a Force wielder, but it's unclear if he can take down Vitiate. Given his lack of concrete feats or ability to do much to Luke at all, I think it's more likely that he cannot match the sheer versatility and planetary scale of Vitiate's abilities.

5. Dark-side Luke (Dark Empire)

Hmmm, this Luke is weaker than the one at the end of Dark Empire. Still, IIRC Palpatine acknowledged that beginning-of-DE Luke would pose a challenge in a fight (but ultimately lose), so he is around at least pre-DE Sidious's tier. I think he defeats Vitiate by virtue of having enough strength in the Force and with energy absorption to survive enough for melee, which he then crushes him in. Luke at this point has some pretty ridiculous speed feats that make it unlikely Vitiate's going to overwhelm him in the 0.5 seconds he'll have.

I'm split with Valkorion.

6. UnuThul

UnuThul's raw power is one of the greatest in the mythos, particularly before IIRC much of the Killik hive had been destroyed, before which he was basically ragdolling Luke, bending back turbolasers, etc. He probably defeats either incarnation, although I'm not sure if he could do anything against their spirit forms.

7. Darth Caedus

Caedus is strong enough in the Force to not get ragdolled, and he's fast and competent enough to force a melee, at which point he eviscerates them both.

8. Wankatine



9. Taalan (post pool of knowledge)

Taalan was ragdolling Luke and moving so fast to him he appeared to teleport. He drank from the pool of knowledge; he's on a far, far higher tier than Vitiate, or likely any previous Sith for that matter.

10. Lord Nyax

Nyax was f*cking with Luke and several other Jedi at the same time, but I get the feeling that this was more Luke jobbing than anything. Still, he probably defeats Vitiate assuming he can deflect lightning.

Boss: Abeloth

Vitiate knows fear.

It took the spirits of thousands of Jedi to imprison Palpatine's spirit. How does Valkorion plan on killing him?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
5. Dark-side Luke (Dark Empire)

Hmmm, this Luke is weaker than the one at the end of Dark Empire. Still, IIRC Palpatine acknowledged that beginning-of-DE Luke would pose a challenge in a fight (but ultimately lose), so he is around at least pre-DE Sidious's tier. I think he defeats Vitiate by virtue of having enough strength in the Force and with energy absorption to survive enough for melee, which he then crushes him in. Luke at this point has some pretty ridiculous speed feats that make it unlikely Vitiate's going to overwhelm him in the 0.5 seconds he'll have.

I'm split with Valkorion.
Luke Skywalker, during this time, is a match for Palpatine only in martial aspects of combat. Palpatine could destroy him but Luke was the darling.

Exar Kun proved that Luke Skywalker during DE and NJO was not prepared to go toe-to-toe against some of the greatest Sith sorcerers of the mythos.

He isn't beating Vitiate. Forget Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
6. UnuThul

UnuThul's raw power is one of the greatest in the mythos, particularly before IIRC much of the Killik hive had been destroyed, before which he was basically ragdolling Luke, bending back turbolasers, etc. He probably defeats either incarnation, although I'm not sure if he could do anything against their spirit forms.
UnuThul have nothing on Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
7. Darth Caedus

Caedus is strong enough in the Force to not get ragdolled, and he's fast and competent enough to force a melee, at which point he eviscerates them both.
Right...

Vitiate could ragdoll Revan (Reborn) who is just as powerful as Darth Caedus.

Valkorion doesn't even needs a mention; he could repel lightsaber strikes at point blank range and is also noticeably more powerful at this point.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
8. Wankatine


He might stop Vitiate but he isn't stopping Valkorion

Originally posted by The Ellimist
9. Taalan (post pool of knowledge)

Taalan was ragdolling Luke and moving so fast to him he appeared to teleport. He drank from the pool of knowledge; he's on a far, far higher tier than Vitiate, or likely any previous Sith for that matter.
Bullshit

Taalon wasn't ragdolling Luke Skywalker; he was able to affect him with his powers though. However, Luke was badly injured at this point and was not operating at his maximum.

Taalon (even after bathing in the pool of knowledge) is no where near as powerful as you are making him out to be, not at the point of his death at the least. And guess who killed him? Vestara Khai

Sorry, Taalon isn't in the league of even Vitiate, let alone Valkorion

Originally posted by The Ellimist
10. Lord Nyax

Nyax was f*cking with Luke and several other Jedi at the same time, but I get the feeling that this was more Luke jobbing than anything. Still, he probably defeats Vitiate assuming he can deflect lightning.
Problem is that you assume too much.

Lord Nyax might be able to hold his own against Vitiate but victory is not guaranteed. Vitiate will wreck him with his powers.

Forget Valkorion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It took the spirits of thousands of Jedi to imprison Palpatine's spirit.
That sounds like hyperbole or opinion of someone.

Empatojayos Brand gets the credit for dooming Palpatine's essence to void forever. He trapped Palpatine's essence within him while he was dying and this did the trick.

As the Emperor fell towards death yet again, he attempted to send his spirit into the baby Anakin - but Empatojayos Brand intercepted the dark essence. Clasping himself to the light, Brand held the Emperor's presence within his body as they both succumbed to death.

With all of his clones destroyed, Emperor Palpatine was finally defeated.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--

Before his soul could enter Anakin's body, Palpatine was intercepted by a newfound Jedi Empatojayos Brand. Cut off from host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by madness that was the Dark Side. After so many decades of bloodshed, the Emperor was truly dead.

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How does Valkorion plan on killing him?
Valkorion may consume him or make him his *****

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It took the spirits of thousands of Jedi to imprison Palpatine's spirit. How does Valkorion plan on killing him?

I'm pretty sure it was every Jedi ever that held Palpatine's spirit. I'll double check on the comic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Luke Skywalker, during this time, is a match for Palpatine only in martial aspects of combat. Palpatine could destroy him but Luke was the darling.


Luke is significantly faster than Vitiate. He can blitz him.



Yeah, JA Luke (who is written significantly weaker than his DE incarnation for some reason) lost to a DS-nexus amped Exar Kun and Kyp Durron. Hardly the same thing...



Brilliant argument. Valkorion has never demonstrated telekinesis on the level of ragdolling Luke or bending turbolasers away from his ship. He does have the Force potential of an entire colony of billions of Killiks to directly draw upon.



Firstly, the notion that Revan could, either by feats or accolades, be considered a match for Caedus except by your trademarked circular powerscaling off of Vitiate is lolworthy.

Secondly, Vitiate did not "ragdoll" Revan. He blasted him back once, and then got knocked on his ass by his own lightning. The only reason why he won was because Revan wasn't fast enough to close the gap, but Caedus's speed feats are infinitely greater than Revan's, and he possesses Force lightning and illusion abilities to stall Vitiate as he closes the distance.

What you seem to fail to recognize is that it typically takes a really big disparity in Force ability to outright overpower someone in that manner. If two combatants are even only separated by a modest amount, they cannot ragdoll one another, and a melee occurs. Vader couldn't ragdoll Ahsoka; Yoda couldn't ragdoll Dooku. Vitiate has basically two seconds to overwhelm Caedus before he gets knocked on his ass and killed.



Ignoring your trademarked usage of vague and meaningless adjectives, Arcann was making slow-ass, predictable lightsaber strikes. He was just distracting him, after all. This doesn't compare to what Caedus would do at melee, particularly given his shatterpoint ability.



This would only be true if Valkorion were so monstrously beyond Palpatine that he could outright ragdoll/kill him in the Force in the 0.5 seconds he has before a melee battle is forced. Even your "if RotJ Sidious is a 100" chart puts the gap between them at a merely modest degree.

In the Force, Wankatine eclipses Valkorion's best destructive feat (Force storms are done on a lighter whim and cause more environmental destruction, Vitiate/Valkorion needs rituals, plus he can destroy Eclipse SSD's and teleport people lightyears), far eclipses his best telekinesis feat (he can apparently take down the imperial palace which is vastly larger than that temple), eclipses his greatest lightning feat (Valkorion has never taken down an opponent as strong as Yoda with uncharged lightning, he needed to gather his energy to overwhelm Revan as his standard ones were being reflected back at him), and is unimaginably faster than him. Of course, up close Valkorion dies within seconds.



Since when was Luke injured? Taalon was flinging him out of windows and moving himself so quickly Luke couldn't perceive him. He seems to be more powerful than him in the Force.



Your dishonesty reeks as palpably as your laughable argumentation. Vestara takes him by surprise and stabs him in the back; you know, just like the Outlander does to Valkorion. It has absolutely nothing to do with his fight against Valkorion, and you probably know that.



Seeing as how he's faster than Luke, who is roflamo faster than Valkorion, and can ragdoll him, while Vitiate apparently can't even ragdoll Revan, nah.



I...I know English isn't your native language, but your sentence construction is so awkward it actually makes me cringe reading it.

Anyway, as with your Unuthul non-answer you don't even try to give a substantive reply to this. Nyax's eight lightsabers would dice Vitiate to pieces, and he's fast enough that Luke had trouble keeping up with him. We don't see any tutanimus feats on his part, but he's presumably strong enough that Luke cannot ragdoll him, and Luke's TK feats >>>>> Vitiate's.

I don't know what's worse between arguing Luke can stomp or blitz Vitiate or arguing Vitiate/Valkorion is in a whole nother league when compared to Taalon, who's superior to Skywalker.
Either way, it's cancer.

Yeah Taalon beats either incarnation.

Originally posted by MythLord
I don't know what's worse between arguing Luke can stomp or blitz Vitiate or arguing Vitiate/Valkorion is in a whole nother league when compared to Taalon, who's superior to Skywalker.
Either way, it's cancer.

Of course you don't. Looking at your posting history, you're obviously too stupid to make a cogent point more complicated than "it's cancer".

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Of course you don't. Looking at your posting history, you're obviously too stupid to make a cogent point more complicated than "it's cancer".
Someone's salty.
You can hardly call others stupid when you argue someone like Valkorion can be speedblitzed by Luke. Or that Valkorion's TK is vastly below Luke's. If he's inferior, it's by a marginal gap.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke is significantly faster than Vitiate. He can blitz him.
Based on?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, JA Luke (who is written significantly weaker than his DE incarnation for some reason) lost to a DS-nexus amped Exar Kun and Kyp Durron. Hardly the same thing...
DS-nexus amped Exar Kun? Bullshit.

Exar Kun was a spirit during this time and significantly weakened; he drew strength from other individuals to manifest and affect them.

For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

Taken from Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Kyp Durron was just a padawan during this time and his abilities were feeble in comparison to those of Exar Kun during this time.

He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.

Taken from Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Brilliant argument. Valkorion has never demonstrated telekinesis on the level of ragdolling Luke or bending turbolasers away from his ship. He does have the Force potential of an entire colony of billions of Killiks to directly draw upon.
I am not sure how Valkorion would demonstrate Telekinesis as per your standards when Luke Skywalker didn't even exist back then and you tend to assume that Luke is superior to anybody even as of DE.

If Turbolasers could stop Valkorion, his enemies would have employed this strategy against him. Don't you think?

Siphoning life-force of millions (or billions) contribute little to growth in power in a short span of time. Otherwise, Palpatine would have been unstoppable.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Firstly, the notion that Revan could, either by feats or accolades, be considered a match for Caedus except by your trademarked circular powerscaling off of Vitiate is lolworthy.
Revan one-shotting Darth Nyriss is more then sufficient proof of him superior to Darth Caedus in the aspect of raw power at the least.

Darth Caedus might be superior duelist then Revan but this won't make any difference vis-a-vis Vitiate.

Forget Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Secondly, Vitiate did not "ragdoll" Revan. He blasted him back once, and then got knocked on his ass by his own lightning. The only reason why he won was because Revan wasn't fast enough to close the gap, but Caedus's speed feats are infinitely greater than Revan's, and he possesses Force lightning and illusion abilities to stall Vitiate as he closes the distance.

What you seem to fail to recognize is that it typically takes a really big disparity in Force ability to outright overpower someone in that manner. If two combatants are even only separated by a modest amount, they cannot ragdoll one another, and a melee occurs. Vader couldn't ragdoll Ahsoka; Yoda couldn't ragdoll Dooku. Vitiate has basically two seconds to overwhelm Caedus before he gets knocked on his ass and killed.


Go through the 'speed' section of the Revan Respect Thread: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/

I am not interested in writing detailed responses at the moment. Tomorrow perhaps, should the need arise.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ignoring your trademarked usage of vague and meaningless adjectives, Arcann was making slow-ass, predictable lightsaber strikes. He was just distracting him, after all. This doesn't compare to what Caedus would do at melee, particularly given his shatterpoint ability.
Ignoring your nonsense, Arcann should be immensely fast and also an excellent duelist since he outdueled/overwhelmed a large number of opponents including the Outlander (Hero of Tython) and Heskal.

But considering your nonsense, everybody is slow-ass because they look like that in the movies.

Look how slow Darth Maul is:

yHqdESArkqU

Wait, look how slow Obi-Wan Kenobi is since Cad Bane (a none-Force sensitive) got the better of him:

sISGRCgJDhA

Logic and common sense be damned.

Show me Valkorion's speed and TK feats. Edit: posted before seeing SWL's post

Well let's see here:
- he ragdolled the Outlander, as a ghost.
- he collapsed a massive temple, while on his deathbed and before growing substantially in power
- he has the power to reduce an entire damn planet to a small, grey shell devoid of all life ala Nihilus-style
- he's summoned Force Storms, while a spirit, to destroy a fleet
- he's formed barriers that guarded against lightsaber strikes
- he has the raw power of 8000 Sith Lords

Do I need to go on? Physical stats are, more often than not, influenced directly by one's power and mastery in the force. Valkorion being the insanely powerful being that he is should logically be amplifying his strength, speed, etc. to the point where he won't be downright blitzed by Luke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That sounds like hyperbole or the opinion of someone


Brand said he would drag the Emperor to the netherworld of the Force with him, where the spirits of "all the Jedi that came before" would ensure that he never returned. That is neither opinion nor hyperbole.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This would only be true if Valkorion were so monstrously beyond Palpatine that he could outright ragdoll/kill him in the Force in the 0.5 seconds he has before a melee battle is forced. Even your "if RotJ Sidious is a 100" chart puts the gap between them at a merely modest degree.
Excuse me?

Valkorion doesn't needs to be monstrouly beyond Palpatine to defeat him. Also, Valkorion can repel Lightsaber strikes at point blank range so Palpatine isn't getting through his defenses easily even if he somehow forces a melee duel early on. And even if Valkorion is struck down, he will still be present (in disembodied form) and would take Palpatine by surprise at this point.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In the Force, Wankatine eclipses Valkorion's best destructive feat (Force storms are done on a lighter whim and cause more environmental destruction, Vitiate/Valkorion needs rituals, plus he can destroy Eclipse SSD's and teleport people lightyears), far eclipses his best telekinesis feat (he can apparently take down the imperial palace which is vastly larger than that temple), eclipses his greatest lightning feat (Valkorion has never taken down an opponent as strong as Yoda with uncharged lightning, he needed to gather his energy to overwhelm Revan as his standard ones were being reflected back at him), and is unimaginably faster than him. Of course, up close Valkorion dies within seconds.
I am not interested in meaningless dick-measuring contest here.

Even Palpatine's greatest powers cannot affect Valkorion in disembodied form, period.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since when was Luke injured? Taalon was flinging him out of windows and moving himself so quickly Luke couldn't perceive him. He seems to be more powerful than him in the Force.
Dear Lord...

From his fight against Abeloth earlier?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your dishonesty reeks as palpably as your laughable argumentation. Vestara takes him by surprise and stabs him in the back; you know, just like the Outlander does to Valkorion. It has absolutely nothing to do with his fight against Valkorion, and you probably know that.
And it proves that he could be killed during the time-span of his transformation.

Here is something for you:

Had the High Lord been at his best, he would have simply redirected the girl straight into Luke. Weakened as he was by his injury and his ongoing transformation, he barely managed to Force-jump over her - and that left him vulnerable.

Taken from Legacy of the Force: Vortex

I am not sure from where people are getting the idea that Taalon was godlike during his transformation?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seeing as how he's faster than Luke, who is roflamo faster than Valkorion, and can ragdoll him, while Vitiate apparently can't even ragdoll Revan, nah.
These are baseless assumptions. You keep repeating them like a parrot and without offering solid evidence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I...I know English isn't your native language, but your sentence construction is so awkward it actually makes me cringe reading it.

Anyway, as with your Unuthul non-answer you don't even try to give a substantive reply to this. Nyax's eight lightsabers would dice Vitiate to pieces, and he's fast enough that Luke had trouble keeping up with him. We don't see any tutanimus feats on his part, but he's presumably strong enough that Luke cannot ragdoll him, and Luke's TK feats >>>>> Vitiate's.
Yes, Lord Nyax is a legitimate threat to Vitiate (as of Revan) but Vitiate's strategy is to use his powers to ensure gap between him and his opponents and destroy them.

Vitiate, even as of Revan, was so strong that Revan could not affect him with his Telekinetic powers and Revan have some of the best Telekinetic showings in combat situations in the mythos. Check his respect thread for more information.

I wouldn't boast that Luke have superior Telekinetic powers then Valkorion because the latter seldom uses them. But whenever he have, he have dominated virtually everybody with them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Brand said he would drag the Emperor to the netherworld of the Force with him, where the spirits of "all the Jedi that came before" would ensure that he never returned. That is neither opinion nor hyperbole.
And this was his personal belief.

No neutral source affirms this claim. You can check the revelations provided by me from two sources.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He will 'avoid' a debate with me on this subject. Trust me on this.

I will do a comparison between Palpatine and Valkorion in disembodied spectrum soon. It will be the end of it all.

It's 100% true that I have no intention of debating you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It took the spirits of thousands of Jedi to imprison Palpatine's spirit. How does Valkorion plan on killing him?

It took 10,000 Jedi to kill Kun as well. Do you always need that much tho? Of course not.

"It took" does imply "requires."

Thats my point. I'm using that phrasing to imply that it requires 10,000 Jedi to kill Exar Kun despite that being obvious horseshit, just like NG was implying that it required all those Jedi to imprison Sheev.

Yeah, but it's a little different. We know it wouldn't require 10,000 Jedi to kill Kun or Sheev or anyone else.

But to hold their spiritual essence in the netherworld? That's a bit different. It could very well have been the case.

Didn't Brand (or whoever tf) drag him in there by himself though.

Yeah.

in my dream i am the star

it is me

and THEN the big man comes

for a little one on one

what

but it turns out to be CRAZY what kind of dunks this guy has

im telling you.... air like that is UNREAL, it doesn't even HAPPEN

most of the time

Sounds like Neph comprehends basketball

the court is on fire

There is something of a basis there for him being held like that, given that Palps already once before escaped from the Netherworld.

Neph, keep dunking on these white boys.

http://rs1231.pbsrc.com/albums/ee507/AVTuffGong/Realistic-fire-animated-transparent-gif-short.gif~c200

Nephthys drop that acid

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion doesn't needs to be monstrouly beyond Palpatine to defeat him.

You ignored every reason I gave as to why he sort of has to be - he's so massively outmatched in melee that he must be able to overpower Palpatine's defenses outright before Sidious can close the distance, .ie he needs a Palpatine vs. Vader sized advantage, and he simply doesn't have it.

Usually when two combatants are relatively evenly matched in the Force, neither can overpower the other's barriers outright and they resort to a lightsaber duel. Then it's possible for one to weaken or let their guard down enough to be vulnerable to such attacks. The problem here is that you have neither demonstrated that Vitiate is so powerful as to be able to penetrate his barrier outright beyond maybe a trivial push (that would require Bane vs. Qordis or Sidious vs. Maul disparities in power), nor that he can survive up close long enough for Sidious to tire or to drop his guard. What do you have to say in response to this, beyond just screaming in denial?



He deflects a few strikes from Arcann, who tries to hit him maybe three or four times and spends a quarter the duration saying "does my ambition really surprise you" and angling his lightsaber for no reason. (Read: he was stalling).

This apparently constitutes sufficient proof to you that he can deflect an assault from the guy who cut down three celebrated Jedi masters in eight seconds.



So comparing feats is a "meaningless dick-measuring contest"? What methodology are we supposed to use then? Accolades? Because you know Palpatine is literally canonically ahead in those, and you always talk about how we should focus on feats instead. That's what I'm doing - going along with your game. DE Palpatine has better everything than Valkorion; better raw destructive ability, better TK, certainly greater speed and dueling ability. Valkorion's potential advantages, his telepathy and more powerful spirit form, won't do him any good here.

A legitimate feats war can be fought between Valkorion and RotS Sidious. You have never demonstrated what advantages he has over the reborn incarnation, and all of your analysis here has been purely defensive.



We don't know about that, since he's apparently mastered "nearly all the known powers", but then the same is true for Wankatine's own spirit. That it isn't as good at affecting the real world is irrelevant.



I don't remember him being injured, and even if he were, I see no reason why that would explain Taalon's ability to read his mind and move faster than he could perceive. It's not like Luke was loosing his eyesight or his connection with the Force because his body may or may not have been bruised.



A random, incoherent strawman. Nobody said he was invincible - he's just vastly more powerful than Vitiate given his ability to ragdoll the son of the Chosen One, compared to Vitiate's getting knocked on his ass by Revan.



Taalon was going crazy in the later stages of his transformation, which is Vestara stabbed him. He was initially powerful enough to ragdoll Luke, who explicitly mused that he had gotten incredibly powerful.



It's pretty obvious that he's faster than Luke, who couldn't even see him move his hand or react to his TK, and you still refuse to provide any speed feats for Valkorion, so it's a reasonable conclusion to say that Luke is faster than him as well. There are no "baseless" assumptions except for yours that you can just deny things by saying "baseless assumptions".



Which, in his novel incarnation, amounts to the brilliant strategy of launching a few lightning bolts that Revan knocked back on his ass.



ROFLAMO. Revan's best TK feat as of the novel is opening a large door. Nyax dominated the same Luke that manipulated dorvin basils and effortlessly destroyed Vader's cloud-reaching fortress.

Now if you can produce feats for Revan and explain how they compare with Luke's (or Nyax's), rather than just throwing them out there and expecting the comparative analysis to work on its own, feel free to do so.



No, he hasn't. He knocked back Revan once and then presumably couldn't again because, well, he would've just used his alleged TK to ragdoll him (either that or he's a tactical idiot - it's same result). He therefore had to resort to throwing lightning bolts at him and then getting knocked on his ass.

Originally posted by MythLord
- he ragdolled the Outlander, as a ghost.


Luke ragdolled a Sith Lord more powerful than Darth Vader. More specifically, he pins him to a chair without even gesturing. LOL if you think Vitiate's feat is comparable.



Luke effortlessly crushes Vader's fortress, which reaches past the clouds, pretty long before his prime. Cloud-scraping fortress > temple.

The following are not even telekinesis feats, so I'll just liberally throw Wankatine into the mix if you're going to go off topic:



We don't know if he used a ritual, but it's still less impressive than Wankatine's Force storms, which can destroy Eclipse class super star destroyers; the power needed to do that is enough to turn a planetary surface to molten lava (given Saxton's calculations).



See above. Wankatine can summon more powerful Force storms that destroy far larger and more advanced warships, and he can do it with a mere thought. Oh, and these storms can pinpoint teleport people light-years unharmed.



Lol, Satele Shan can essentially do that. Pre-prime Luke can absorb AT-AT blasts.



UnuThul has the raw power of an entire colony. But it's also clearly not the case that Vitiate's power is literally the addition of 8000 sith lords; he would pretty much be unbeatable in any capacity if it were. The ritual did make him stronger, but most of the lords' energy likely went into making him chronologically immortal.



Even if we accepted your weird backtracking from "it's cancer to think Luke has better speed feats" to "well I actually can't name a single speed feat of Vitiate so I'll just power-scale!" and conclude that the two combatants are just as fast, how is Valkorion supposed to avoid a melee confrontation? He can't backtrack and attack as quickly as Luke can run forward, so is he just going to be on the run the whole time?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats my point. I'm using that phrasing to imply that it requires 10,000 Jedi to kill Exar Kun despite that being obvious horseshit, just like NG was implying that it required all those Jedi to imprison Sheev.

This is true, we don't know how many were actually necessary, but the more important implication is that without them he would return ad infinitum.