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Let's see what SW_Legend has to say, eh?

Neutral ground, Luke is not jobbing, no spirit form for Valkorion.

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

Luke wins BTW

Valkekion

Probably Valkorion. Luke wins the rematch, though.

That's how it always goes, after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkekion

lol

Luke is faster, stronger and an overall deadlier combatant than Wankorion ever was.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Probably Valkorion. Luke wins the rematch, though.

That's how it always goes, after all.

Luke struggled to beat Lumiya.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/herman-cain-smile.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke struggled to beat Lumiya.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/herman-cain-smile.gif

Vitiate was almost killed by Meetra.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vdlW46It--/c_fit,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18zccrb69aqjcgif.gif

False. He sensed her fangirl from a mile away and knew he didn't need to fear.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate was almost killed by Meetra.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vdlW46It--/c_fit,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18zccrb69aqjcgif.gif

Luke got dunked on by Kylo "B*tch" Ren.

http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/_1497-.gif

Seriously though.

Given that Valkorion can't match Luke in close quarters, he has to win the battle at a distance, essentially granting him a 0.5 second window to close the deal before getting his shit stomped. The only precedent for him winning given such an enormous disparity in close quarters abilities would be when the disadvantaged combatant holds such an enormous edge in Force power that he can just break his enemy's defenses outright. Valkorion supporters therefore have the burden to establish not only that Valkorion is more powerful, but that he outstrips Luke to the same extent that Palpatine outstrips Vader.
-> Valkorion's ability to stop a few slow saber strikes from a stalling Arcann tells us nothing. Luke would attack with far greater speed, ferocity and skill, and has shatterpoint.
-> Luke can furthermore close the distance with illusions, saber throws, emerald lightning, fold space, etc.

With this in mind, Valkorion needs to try to kill Luke from a distance, and he needs to do it quickly. What are his options?

--> Valkorion's telekinesis feats simply don't match Luke's, given that the Jedi grandmaster can destroy Vader's clouds-dwarfing fortress decades before his prime. Luke's ability to root himself in the Force to become the "very essence of the immovable object", to the point where a black hole wouldn't have budged him, against a Force push from someone with the collective Force potential of a colony of billions of Killiks, makes it a little unrealistic for Valkorion to ragdoll him.


--> Valkorion would have to be quick enough to tag Luke with Force lightning. There's no feat to suggest that he is. Someone then has to show us where Valkorion disarms or defeats anyone as powerful as Skywalker - oops, nothing there either, amirite? And what happens if Luke, who has greater speed and reflex showings than Valkorion, strikes with emerald lightning first, and uses the distraction to close the distance? In either case, Luke was powerful enough by DE that with some "unlocked hidden reserves" from Leia (which presumably < the unlocked potential over 25 years of training), Sidious doesn't even try to tag him with lightning.

So, no evidence that Valkorion can kill Luke in the fractions of a second he has before he gets diced with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke got dunked on by Kylo "B*tch" Ren.

http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/_1497-.gif

Kylo Ren is infinitely stronger than Valkorion though. He's actually canon. uhuh

Luke takes all. Sabers only he'd stomp, Force and all-out he'd win in a good match.

Luke takes all

Originally posted by MythLord
Luke takes all. Sabers only he'd stomp, Force and all-out he'd win in a good match.

Force only is a solid win for Valkorion

Idk why there's even a sabers round

All-out Valkorion

His teleportation will keep him out of Luke's reach, and his Force superiority is large enough that he can pull the majority

lol

up

There's no evidence Luke can get to him in the fractions of a second before Vakorion one shots him. And if he does get to him, he'll do what he did to Arcann and deflect his lightsaber with the force and his arms.

Bump

Originally posted by MythLord
Luke takes all. Sabers only he'd stomp, Force and all-out he'd win in a good match.

Luke walks over him.

Luke wins in a tough match

In Force only I can see it going either way, but Valkorion's vast array of Dark Side powers and Sorcery might be able to overwhelm Luke. Luke spites in Sabers only because Valkorion obviously sucks with a blade. I can see it going either way in all out, but only if Valkorion can keep distance between himself and Luke; otherwise Luke wins. I see Luke as the more likely victor in a fight between these two, but he wouldn't win every fight outta 10 fights.

Originally posted by darthbane77
In Force only I can see it going either way, but Valkorion's vast array of Dark Side powers and Sorcery might be able to overwhelm Luke. Luke spites in Sabers only because Valkorion obviously sucks with a blade. I can see it going either way in all out, but only if Valkorion can keep distance between himself and Luke; otherwise Luke wins. I see Luke as the more likely victor in a fight between these two, but he wouldn't win every fight outta 10 fights.
How would Sorcery overwhelm him? Luke is better in every important area.
Luke qould win 10/10, tbh.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
How would Sorcery overwhelm him? Luke is better in every important area.
Luke qould win 10/10, tbh. Sorcery is powerful, and being used by someone like Valkorion it can be more than deadly enough to threaten Luke. Luke isn't much more powerful than DE Sidious and Valkorion in the Force, the margin is small enough that they're basically equals in Force ability. Luke's only clear advantage over Valkorion is his lightsaber skill.

The gap between Luke and Sidious is relative large, imo enough that Luke wins 10/10. The gap between Sidious and Valkorion is even larger. Luke is Valks superior in TP, definietly TP. Valk wouldn't have time to use sorcery on Luke, kek.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
The gap between Luke and Sidious is relative large, imo enough that Luke wins 10/10. The gap between Sidious and Valkorion is even larger. Luke is Valks superior in TP, definietly TP. Valk wouldn't have time to use sorcery on Luke, kek. Ah, that's why we disagree. We have Sidious and Valkorion at different spots vs one another. I see them as pretty much equal tbh, in the Force anyway. But I don't feel like debating that atm.

More or less, tho I have the gap between Luke and Sidious wider by a fair degree. I don't feel either, tbh.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
The gap between Luke and Sidious is relative large, imo enough that Luke wins 10/10. The gap between Sidious and Valkorion is even larger.

Agreed. So Valk wins, therefore?

Lol. Luke>Sidious>Valk

Yea no

Yeah, yes. I forgot Yoda, tho. Luke>Sidious>Yoda>Valk

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Probably Valkorion. Luke wins the rematch, though.

That's how it always goes, after all.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yeah, yes. I forgot Yoda, tho. Luke>Sidious>Yoda>Valk yea no

How does Valk win against Sidious/Serious Luke?

Valkorion can win against anybody, doesn't mean he necessarily will. He has a great chance against both de sidious and prime luke nut that doesn't necessarily make him the favorite.

He has a great Chance at losing 10/10 against either.
And please tell me, that you didn't include the Ones in "anybody"

Originally posted by Ursumeles
He has a great Chance at losing 10/10 against either.
And please tell me, that you didn't include the Ones in "anybody"

Yea that's a cute baseless opinion. For the millionth time, the ones are never included.

I'm with MS on this one, Valkorion is easily powerful enough to defeat anybody (save for Entities obviously.)

Good. I've never read that once from you, lol. Also, Taalon>>Valk.
It isn't baseless, lmao. Luke is just his far superior in TK-he ragdolled Caedus, rebuiled Vaders Fortress decades before prime, was stated that even the Black Hole in the Middle of the Galaxy couldn't move him, manipulated Dorvin Basals...
I'll search for his best TP feats.

Oh that's cute. You go from little to no credibility with the taalon comparison. I need to focus responding to adults.

All of Valk's feats are comparable. Also no, Taalon is not>>Valk lol, even after bathing in the pool he was barely =/> Luke.

I want to see them :/
Iirc, he was reading Lukes mind, and was crushing him in a Lightsaber Battle, so, yeah he is >>Valk.

He was barely above Luke at the most lol.

Darth, he will continue posting the same things ad nauseum. Let it go

MS, I asked you a dozen times after Valks feats, which compare with Lukes, and never get one. :/

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Luke wins in a tough match

@DMB Did I miss some of Taalons best feats?

luke oneshots in a close fight

Lmfao

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Probably Valkorion. Luke wins the rematch, though.

That's how it always goes, after all.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
luke oneshots in a close fight

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
luke oneshots in a close fight WTF, that's incredibly contradictory.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
He has a great Chance at losing 10/10 against either.
And please tell me, that you didn't include the Ones in "anybody"

Originally posted by Azronger
Luke walks over him.
Bullshit

Arguments for Valk?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Arguments for Valk?
Sure.

You make a case for Luke Skywalker and I will respond.

TK first, as I have his TK feats best in mind. I'll use Ellimists Wank therad as reference: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15727564

Luke pinned Caedus ahgainst his chair, without even gesturing. Caedus himself says, that he couldn't move.
Caedus is stated to be >Vader. Naturally, this is just a publisher summary, but even if we don't take it as fact; Caedus still moved 40m Ships pre-prime, is stated to deflect Turbolasers, deflected very powerful lasers, and has the growth of a Skywalker. I see no reason, why he shouldn't reach the Level of oneshotting Vergere while angry, which he had in Traitor, after one-anda-half-decade growth.

Luke defend himself against the TK of UnuThul, which is possible the non-entity with the biggest raw power in SW. Even more, he was stated, that even the black hole in the center of the galaxy couldn't move him.
I will just quote Ellimist, as I am lazy, sick and on my tablet(I think that is okay, as I just give you the feat so):
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke not only stops cold the telekinesis of a guy with the collective Force potential of a colony of killiks (billions?), and subsequently owns him, but is described as being the very essence of an immovable object who can't be moved by the black hole at the center of the galaxy. I don't think this is hyperbole - the author seems to know that we'd dismiss it as such, and so goes into a very excessive amount of detail and affirmation of this fact, or exactly what you'd expect someone to do to show that it's literal, short of saying "literally".
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke explicitly had to be "ready" for UnuThul's TK (he was ragdolled initially), and then rooted himself in the Force. Post DN, I can't really recall times when he is ragdolled against his will; he's carried back by the Hidden One's lightning, but that doesn't injure him or do anything, and he's pushed around by Abeloth, but he's trying to close the distance with her and attack her, so rooting himself wouldn't do anything.

He seemingly throwed an Shuttle in LotF, only by glancing at it. WTF?

Luke can also manipulate Dovin Basals, and NR Era Luke, can easily destroy Vaders fortress.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bullshit

Not really.

"NR Era Luke, can easily destroy Vader's fortress", severely weakened and immediately post death spirit Vitiate brought down the Dark Temple; Luke's feat is no better than that, it's arguably LESS impressive.

Yeah, but IIRC that was on a DS Nexus. Also, this is Luke's worst of the TK feats, which I said, and roughtly 3 decades pre-prime, iirc. Also, iirc, he also rebuild it with one move. Easily rebuilding a Mountain-sized fortress pre-prime, is at least as impressive; tho you can argue about it.

True enough

Lmao. Vitiate brought down a ceiling, Luke brought down a fortress that reached the skies, then rebuilt it, and, IIRC, destroyed it again. And Vitiate was a spirit, yes, but Luke was pre-prime, so it balances out.

At least you have given me a feat, that more than Beefy has done, lel.
This feat puts Valk imo >Plagueis now(I had him >Plaggy before, but I wasn't sure on that, tbh).

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I want to see them :/
Iirc, he was reading Lukes mind, and was crushing him in a Lightsaber Battle, so, yeah he is >>Valk.
More like an exhausted and spent Luke.

Sarasu Taalon is no where close to Valkorion in power.

He was a spirit and was already weakened before hand as well, my point was that the feats are similar; that's all.

If that was your point then you did a shit job of conveying it.

Nah, he proved that Valk is similar to mid-NR era Luke.

The only thing he proved is that Vitiate has a feat that's not even close to Luke's.

Yupp, Vitate(Tho Valk is >= Vity) is still under NR Luke, and that feat doesn't compare with FotJ Luke.

Originally posted by Azronger
The only thing he proved is that Vitiate has a feat that's not even close to Luke's.

Sure, and Vitiate has feats that Luke couldn't even match, so great argument

Next time you may want to refrain from being intentionally misleading, that is if you want to be taken seriously.

Then again, you tried to convince everybody that it Vitiate centuries of ritual prep so... Lol

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sure, and Vitiate has feats that Luke couldn't even match, so great argument
Which?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Which?

His various rituals, his out of body thing, his ability to block sabers with his hands, his utter destruction of the entire dark council? That's why it's completely asinine to say character X is more powerful than character Y because character X did something character Y didn't. But that's the kind of arguments we're getting from these unruly teenagers these days.

Lol, I just said that Luke has superior TK and TP feats.
Which rituals? I know only the Nathema, and that was with much help.
Yeah, you can hardly compare Vitates essence transfer with Luke's feats. But how does him help that in a fight?
He blocked them with TK. Still very impressive, but he blocked the Strokes from a "just Sub-Dooku opponent :/.
Had anyone of them feats/good accolades? Was someone like Baras/Thanaton in the council?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Lol, I just said that Luke has superior TK and TP feats.
Which rituals? I know only the Nathema, and that was with much help.
Yeah, you can hardly compare Vitates essence transfer with Luke's feats. But how does him help that in a fight?
He blocked them with TK. Still very impressive, but he blocked the Strokes from a "just Sub-Dooku opponent :/.
Had anyone of them feats/good accolades? Was someone like Baras/Thanaton in the council?


You're really just reaching now.

Why? I just said that we can't compare Vitates Essence transfer, and wanted more information on the rest. Lol.
And that Lukes TK/TP>Vitates.

So Valkorion's weakened spirit collapsing a ceiling(which even Dooku can do with a hand gesture) on a nexus apparently is similar to Luke, years pre-prime, collapsing, rebuilding, then collapsing and scattering a mountain sized fortress for giggles?

LMAO.

Originally posted by MythLord
So Valkorion's weakened spirit collapsing a ceiling(which even Dooku can do with a hand gesture) on a nexus apparently is similar to Luke, years pre-prime, collapsing, rebuilding, then collapsing and scattering a mountain sized fortress for giggles?

LMAO.
It was just a ceiling? Momentary Luke ragdolls, then, based on feats
(Not saying that he would do)

It was the inner sanctums, IIRC. So yeah, it was just a ceiling. Even Jacen has a better feat, and Luke one-shotted a much more powerful version of him.

Jacen>Vitate confirmed

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sure, and Vitiate has feats that Luke couldn't even match, so great argument

Next time you may want to refrain from being intentionally misleading, that is if you want to be taken seriously.

Then again, you tried to convince everybody that it Vitiate centuries of ritual prep so... Lol

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
His various rituals, his out of body thing, his ability to block sabers with his hands, his utter destruction of the entire dark council? That's why it's completely asinine to say character X is more powerful than character Y because character X did something character Y didn't. But that's the kind of arguments we're getting from these unruly teenagers these days.

http://i.imgur.com/YX6ZTJ2.gif

Originally posted by Azronger
http://i.imgur.com/YX6ZTJ2.gif

https://media2.giphy.com/media/TJPQBOfPGpgmQ/200_s.gif

Originally posted by MythLord
So Valkorion's weakened spirit collapsing a ceiling(which even Dooku can do with a hand gesture) on a nexus apparently is similar to Luke, years pre-prime, collapsing, rebuilding, then collapsing and scattering a mountain sized fortress for giggles?

LMAO. Poor beefy.

Originally posted by MythLord
So Valkorion's weakened spirit collapsing a ceiling(which even Dooku can do with a hand gesture) on a nexus apparently is similar to Luke, years pre-prime, collapsing, rebuilding, then collapsing and scattering a mountain sized fortress for giggles?

LMAO.
Right

Dark Temple is huge and one of the toughest structures of the Empire. Besides extremely thick and durable walls and ceilings, Sith Sorcery enhanced defenses that prevented Sith spirits from escaping.

We are not talking about an ordinary structure here. Vitiate, in his weakest and most vulnerable form, managed to collapse an entire chamber of the Dark Temple in an effort to crush HoT beneath tons of rock but the Jedi somehow escaped.

Vitiate wrecked the Dark Temple to an extent that its defenses were compromised and Sith Spirits could escape.

Now, if we consider Vitiate at his prime, it is obvious that he can do far more then his Dark Temple related showings.

I think the point went right over Myth's head, as usual.

Originally posted by MythLord
So Valkorion's weakened spirit collapsing a ceiling(which even Dooku can do with a hand gesture) on a nexus apparently is similar to Luke, years pre-prime, collapsing, rebuilding, then collapsing and scattering a mountain sized fortress for giggles?

LMAO.
Your respond to that, LeGenD?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now, if we consider Vitiate at his prime, it is obvious that he can do far more then his Dark Temple related showings.

Well, duh. Same goes for Luke as well, though, so your point is moot.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Your respond to that, LeGenD?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
TK first, as I have his TK feats best in mind. I'll use Ellimists Wank therad as reference: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15727564
Sure

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Luke pinned Caedus ahgainst his chair, without even gesturing. Caedus himself says, that he couldn't move.
Caedus is stated to be >Vader. Naturally, this is just a publisher summary, but even if we don't take it as fact; Caedus still moved 40m Ships pre-prime, is stated to deflect Turbolasers, deflected very powerful lasers, and has the growth of a Skywalker. I see no reason, why he shouldn't reach the Level of oneshotting Vergere while angry, which he had in Traitor, after one-anda-half-decade growth.
Valkorion dominated the Outlander in a similar manner.

Here: https://imgur.com/NBrLtJd

---

Superiority of Darth Caedus over Darth Vader is suspect at present. More importantly, you are (not) highlighting feats of Darth Caedus in proper context.

Did he really move 40m Starships ?

This was it: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t632710.html

Did he really deflect Turbolasers?

This was it: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t632714.html

Note: He did not deflect Turbolasers. He deflected cannon fire of a Dropship or a similar vessel.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Luke defend himself against the TK of UnuThul, which is possible the non-entity with the biggest raw power in SW. Even more, he was stated, that even the black hole in the center of the galaxy couldn't move him.
I will just quote Ellimist, as I am lazy, sick and on my tablet(I think that is okay, as I just give you the feat so):
Ellimist is taking a hyperbole at face value. Enough said.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
He seemingly throwed an Shuttle in LotF, only by glancing at it. WTF?
No.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Luke can also manipulate Dovin Basals, and NR Era Luke, can easily destroy Vaders fortress.
Luke Skywalker is likely to use Telekinetic powers to great lengths by virtue of being a Jedi. You will find lot of examples to support him in this area.

In case of Valkorion, examples are few. Therefore, logical decision is to consider power-scaling.

Valkorion's inferiors had the capability to collapse large structures and/or entire buildings so Luke is checked in this area.

Luke's most prominent showing is affecting Vong manifestations however he is checked in that area as well by Kyp Durron (a Darth Vader TIER Force-user).

I can't quote, as I am on my tablet, so:

1. Jaina still said that he deflected Turbolasers. Also, Jacen killed YV with Lightning, growed even stronger in the rest of the war, became far more powerful at his 5 years adventure, became more powerful again, and growed in his time as Sith more powerful every day
What has The Outlander done, that puts him near Caedus?

2. It isn't clear, if it is hyperbole. And you take hyperbole as fact valie, as well.
UnuThul ist still extremely impressive-and so is Luke resisting him.

3. Why no?
@Ellimist do you have the quote for that feat?

4. When did they collapsed structures, which are even remotely close to the fortress.

5. LMAO. That Kyp did this with greater ease then Luke puts him above Vader. You can't lowball Luke on such a way.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I can't quote, as I am on my tablet, so:
No problem. Points will do.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Jaina still said that he deflected Turbolasers. Also, Jacen killed YV with Lightning, growed even stronger in the rest of the war, became far more powerful at his 5 years adventure, became more powerful again, and growed in his time as Sith more powerful every day
What has The Outlander done, that puts him near Caedus?
Jaina Solo's perception changes nothing. People get stuff wrong all the time. Jaina Solo is just as fallible. Concentrate on the actual feat. It was a dropship class vessel.

More importantly, Turbolasers have different specifications. Their potency varies accordingly.

You cannot expect Jacen Solo to deflect firepower of a Harrower-class or more advanced Starship, do you?

As for all that power-progression, provide solid evidence of it.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
2. It isn't clear, if it is hyperbole. And you take hyperbole as fact valie, as well.
UnuThul ist still extremely impressive-and so is Luke resisting him.
It is hyperbole unless you expect Luke Skywalker to be strong enough to affect or resist a cosmic blackhole. Not even Abeloth could do that.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
3. Why no?
@Ellimist do you have the quote for that feat?
Provide evidence then.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
4. When did they collapsed structures, which are even remotely close to the fortress.
Question should be how big Darth Vader's fortress was.

Problem: We don't have an idea.

As for examples:

1. Vaylin destroyed the main power station of a metropolis during her pursuit of the Outlander. The entire structure was massive.
2. An unidentified Jedi Master collapsed two (damaged) buildings simultaneously. This resulted in a mountain of rubble in the region.

I am sure there are more examples.

@Nephthys

Any comments?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
5. LMAO. That Kyp did this with greater ease then Luke puts him above Vader. You can't lowball Luke on such a way.
Kyp Durron struggled as much as Luke Skywalker.

You perceive Kyp Durron to be above Darth Vader? Many do not.

@MythLord


Did I assert that Vitiate collapsed the entire structure?

Vitiate managed to collapse a huge chamber of the Dark Temple; this collapse was so intense that it compromised the integrity of the Dark Temple on the whole.

You want evidence of durability of Dark Temple? You must be sleeping during your playthrough.

A single glance at the structure is enough to give you an idea of its durability:

http://www.askajedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/The-Dark-Temple.jpg

Dark Temple was intended to be a prison for the greatest enemies of the Emperor. It was designed in a manner that nobody could breach its defenses, if locked within.

Now, watch this video:

79VslTuRaUY

3:20 - 3:35

It took the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy several seconds to rip apart a segment of the ceiling of the Dark Temple. Do the math.


Here:

The temple's twisted, grotesque architecture was specifically designed to focus and contain such corrupt darkness.

Notice the key word?


That room was larger than any structure Count Dooku ever managed to collapse. And also more durable.

http://i67.tinypic.com/262mt1x.png

For Dooku's showing:

Thanks for showing me those scans. That is a normal structure. And he collapsed only a part of it.


And Orsis Academy was built like the Dark Temple, right?

If a (trainee) Darth Maul could collapse barracks of Orsis Academy, that says a lot about the size and durability of the structure in question.


Correction: Vitiate collapsed the entire chamber. And the collapse would have damaged other parts of the Dark Temple as well since it was on the upper floor.

And you make it sound like as if Vitiate performed the deed under normal conditions. As if the nexus environment made any difference?

Hero of Tython - the most powerful Jedi of his era - found it challenging to rip apart a segment of the Dark Temple. What chances his inferiors have?

As I pointed out earlier, Dark Temple was a prison for the greatest enemies of the Emperor. Nobody could breach its defenses easily from within.

1. Vader's fortress reached past the clouds.
2. It was wide enough to hold a starship hanger.
3. Luke first reassembles the entire fortress.
4. Then, he raises it all into the air, crushes it to dust, and tosses it into the ocean.
5. He does this with no visible effort, and decades before FotJ.
6. Oh, and it was apparently dark side empowered too.
7. The kicker is that this isn't even Luke's best TK feat.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Vader's fortress reached past the clouds.
2. It was wide enough to hold a starship hanger.
3. Luke first reassembles the entire fortress.
4. Then, he raises it all into the air, crushes it to dust, and tosses it into the ocean.
5. He does this with no visible effort, and decades before FotJ.
6. Oh, and it was apparently dark side empowered too.
7. The kicker is that this isn't even Luke's best TK feat.
Do you have the quote of Luke TKing a ship with a blink?

@MythLord


Then why mention it?

Look at my original post:

We are not talking about an ordinary structure here. Vitiate, in his weakest and most vulnerable form, managed to collapse an entire chamber of the Dark Temple in an effort to crush HoT beneath tons of rock but the Jedi somehow escaped.

Comprehension problems, my friend?


1. Possible.

2. Calling it a single room is misleading. Ever seen rooms that big? Hall is appropriate word.


You look at the composition and mass of the structure to figure out how durable it is.

If the walls of Dark Temple are like 10 feet thick on average, they will be much harder to breach. Have a look: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9d/Dark_Temple_Holonet.png/revision/latest?cb=20130303060951

Even the inner walls are like 10 feet across on average.

---

Those cracks imply that efforts were made to breach the structure at some point but failed.


Only Vitiate


There is no such thing as canon or non-canon cut-scenes in SWTOR. All cut-scenes are official and represent possibilities.

That cut-scene reveals how difficult it is to breach even a segment of the Dark Temple. As I pointed out to you earlier, Dark Temple was intended to be prison for the greatest threats to the Emperor and the galaxy. A normal structure would not be sufficient for containing such threats. Common sense.

Hero of Tython (HoT) was sub-Kenobi TIER Jedi?

HoT was stronger than any Jedi in the galaxy at that point. Stronger than Satele Shan, Barsen'thor III, Jaric Kaedan, Tol Braga and Wyellett - all of whom have showings on par with (and superior) to those of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Moreover, some Jedi developed abilities to shrug-off effects of a powerful Dark Side environment. Due to this reason, they were able to cope with difficult challenges in such environments. Look no further then the examples of Meetra Surik and Revan.

Those showings of Asajj Ventress are not comparable, at all. She would not be able to breach a segment of the Dark Temple even in her prime years. Hero of Tython have similar showings years much earlier in the game.

Hero of Tython was performing Jedi Master TIER feats years before his prime (affirmed in conversations). His superiority is also evident from the observation that he came across and defeated opponents much stronger than Asajj Ventress during his exploits.

Some feats of Barsen'thor III years before her prime:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4500220-0378116447-mGRd9.gif

HoT - during Act III - was well beyond the aforementioned showings. Stronger than any Jedi in the galaxy. Don't be a fool.


Those images leave it to our judgement. The side pillars were clearly standing after the deed, so Count Dooku pulled down segments of the ceiling, enough to crush Tholme beneath dozens of rocks. How much of it - is ambiguous.

Tholme took that much time because he was injured and trapped beneath the rubble. In contrast, Hope Darth Malgus, in similar situation, blew apart tons of debris in a span of 2 seconds. HoT would be definitely stronger than Hope Darth Malgus.


How would Vitiate be amplified by the nexus environment when he lost much of his strength due to earlier developments? You are making no sense in your assumptions.


It doesn't have to a run-of-the-mill Hut to be much less durable than the Dark Temple. Like I said, most buildings do not match the durability of Dark Temple.

Let us put it in this manner:

We have a Main Battle Tank and a Bus. Which would be harder to destroy?


And you continue to miss the point.

1. Vitiate had lost much of his strength at that point.
2. Dark Temple is an extraordinarily durable structure. Even the strongest Jedi would find it challenging to breach its defenses and walls.


You are as clueless as one can be about the events in question.

The environment can be beneficial under the right circumstances. Not when the Force-user has lost much of his strength and on the deathbed.

Get your facts straight first.


I do not recall comparing the two showings.

Vitiate's showing (in question) is one of his lowest. Still more impressive than majority of TK-related showings. My intention is to address your misconceptions regarding Vitiate's showing. Nothing else.

As for the citadel that Luke Skywalker affected; it was located on a peak. It wasn't as large as a mountain. You might have misread the text.

Legend, you posted the same image twice for two different Barsen'thor feats.

@LeG I legitimately have no motivation, nor care, to continue this. My point was someone on'ere was comparing Luke's citadel showing to Vitiate's Temple showing.

I simply pointed out Vitiate's showing isn't better, as good, or even that comparable.

Whatever "misconceptions" you think I have are irrelevant, and I legitimately don't care enough to read your post in detail and respond with a physics test coming up. Have a good day.

Luke wins.

@MythLord

I take that as a concession.

Really? I thought that was an invitation to his birthday party?

Lmao

@Ursumeles

Done with TK part?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@Ursumeles

Done with TK part?
If you still care for the debate, I'll answer later.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
If you still care for the debate, I'll answer later.
That is why I asked.

Awaiting your response.

Holy cow, does Legend seriously think that the ceiling Vitiate brought down is comparable in size to Vader's fortress, which was passing storm clouds? And yeah, it was on a mountain - but its structure is still stated to blend in with the beaches, .i.e. it ranges all the way down the mountain. Regardless, it's undisputedly larger than the hallway we see in TOR.

I mean, it's not just the size difference, it's also the fact that Luke crushes the entire fortress to dust at the same time and then hurls it all into the ocean, while Vitiate just fragments the ceiling. I have no idea how you could justify the latter being more impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Holy cow, does Legend seriously think that the ceiling Vitiate brought down is comparable in size to Vader's fortress, which was passing storm clouds? And yeah, it was on a mountain - but its structure is still stated to blend in with the beaches, .i.e. it ranges all the way down the mountain. Regardless, it's undisputedly larger than the hallway we see in TOR.

I mean, it's not just the size difference, it's also the fact that Luke crushes the entire fortress to dust at the same time and then hurls it all into the ocean, while Vitiate just fragments the ceiling. I have no idea how you could justify the latter being more impressive.
Comprehension issues or trolling? Take your pick.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Comprehension issues or trolling? Take your pick.

I love how you just say "comprehension issues" but then fail to actually explain what those issues are, or say anything that suggests you have a brain hidden in there.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@MythLord

I take that as a concession.

Do whatever you'd like; I don't care, tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No problem. Points will do.


Jaina Solo's perception changes nothing. People get stuff wrong all the time. Jaina Solo is just as fallible. Concentrate on the actual feat. It was a dropship class vessel.

More importantly, Turbolasers have different specifications. Their potency varies accordingly.

You cannot expect Jacen Solo to deflect firepower of a Harrower-class or more advanced Starship, do you?

As for all that power-progression, provide solid evidence of it.


It is hyperbole unless you expect Luke Skywalker to be strong enough to affect or resist a cosmic blackhole. Not even Abeloth could do that.


Provide evidence then.


Question should be how big Darth Vader's fortress was.

Problem: We don't have an idea.

As for examples:

1. Vaylin destroyed the main power station of a metropolis during her pursuit of the Outlander. The entire structure was massive.
2. An unidentified Jedi Master collapsed two (damaged) buildings simultaneously. This resulted in a mountain of rubble in the region.

I am sure there are more examples.

@Nephthys

Any comments?


Kyp Durron struggled as much as Luke Skywalker.

You perceive Kyp Durron to be above Darth Vader? Many do not.
I'll search for quotes soon, but I am not sure if I can next week.

1. He is also implied to be more powerful than all Jedi, bar Luke and Kyp, in NJO, only to grow vastly in his journey and every day in LotF.

2. When you think that it is hyperbole, than also statements like Calkorion being "godlike'.
Also, it implies at least that nearly nothing can affect him-not even UnuThul, whichs raw power is > Valkorions imo. I'll try to find his best feats, as well.

3. Ellimist did.

4. Luke was also vastly more powerful, than guys who could destroy starcaises mid-battle.

5. You can't use the feat to lowball Luke. Also, in JA was implied, that Kyp's raw power > Vader's raw power.

Why is this even a thread? Valkorion's going to get crushed 1v1 by the Outlander in KotET, anyways.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. He is also implied to be more powerful than all Jedi, bar Luke and Kyp, in NJO, only to grow vastly in his journey and every day in LotF.
I need to see evidence of such power progression.

I am not denying his 'power progression' with passage of time. But the statements like "only to grow vastly in his journey" need to be substantiated.

Did he surpass Kyp Durron for example? Because many characters experience 'power progression' with passage of time. If Jacen Solo was growing in power, same was true for Kyp Durron.

---

And even if Jacen Solo (supposedly) vastly grew in power, where does he stand in the big picture?

Revan vastly grew in power since the era of Mandalorian Wars (confirmed in the novel), but he could not contend with the Emperor regardless of that.

A lesson to be learned from the aforementioned example is that statements like "only to grow vastly in his journey" do not tell us much.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
2. When you think that it is hyperbole, than also statements like Calkorion being "godlike'.
Also, it implies at least that nearly nothing can affect him-not even UnuThul, whichs raw power is > Valkorions imo. I'll try to find his best feats, as well.
My assumption is grounded in the (known) limitations of the character in question. We notice Luke Skywalker struggling to manipulate a Vong creation. A cosmic Blackhole is much larger and eclipses any Vong creation in power. How could Luke affect a cosmic Blackhole when an infinitely inferior Vong creation stretched him to his limits?

Only one conclusion makes sense, that that revelation was hyperbole.

Valkorion is godlike in the sense that he is an immortal being with extraordinary raw power and cannot be stopped through conventional methods. Even if you destroy his avatar, he will make another and resume his exploits. A lone Jedi or Sith cannot hope to defeat him, and would be overwhelmed in a prolonged struggle.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
3. Ellimist did.
He did not provide it yet.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
4. Luke was also vastly more powerful, than guys who could destroy starcaises mid-battle.
Your point?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
5. You can't use the feat to lowball Luke. Also, in JA was implied, that Kyp's raw power > Vader's raw power.
My intention is not to lowball Luke but it is true that his greatest showing is matched.

If Kyp Durron is indeed more powerful than Darth Vader, than this fact should be brought to our attention.

NOTE: I am asking for quotes because I do not have the time to read so many novels.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@Nephthys

Any comments?

Whats this about?

Luke decisively.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Neutral ground, Luke is not jobbing, no spirit form for Valkorion.

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

Luke wins BTW

ikr

why does this thread even exist?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Force only is a solid win for Valkorion

All-out Valkorion

His teleportation will keep him out of Luke's reach, and his Force superiority is large enough that he can pull the majority
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
There's no evidence Luke can get to him in the fractions of a second before Vakorion one shots him. And if he does get to him, he'll do what he did to Arcann and deflect his lightsaber with the force and his arms. For such people.

@Ursumeles

That feat is impressive. However, even Aryn Leener has a comparable showing.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
For such people.
Same expression is valid for some comments in favor of Luke Skywalker in this thread.

Which of Aryn's showings is comparable? I've looked in her RT, and there is nothing that Kenobi couldn't replicate, not to speak off Luke.

Nah, that isn't even comparable with Luke showing. Luke only glanced at it, Aryn did a gesture. And a shuttle>>>a few cars.
I am impressed with Aryn, nonethless.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, that isn't even comparable with Luke showing. Luke only glanced at it, Aryn did a gesture. And a shuttle>>>a few cars.
I am impressed with Aryn, nonethless.
Trams are massive, my friend.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Trams are massive, my friend.
I know. We have a tram station nearly directly befor our door.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I know. We have a tram station nearly directly befor our door.
A single shuttle is not bigger or even comparable in size.

But in mass.

Depends upon the type of Shuttle and Tram.

Anyways, we done with TK chapter?

Yes, at least for now. I'll maybe bring it up again, when I find quotes.
TP/Illusions next?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yes, at least for now. I'll maybe bring it up again, when I find quotes.
TP/Illusions next?
Sure