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Luke Skywalker
Yoda
Ben Kenobi
Mara Jade
Jaina Solo
Kyp Durron
Kyle Katarn

vs.

Vitiate
The Dread Masters
Darth Jadus
Darth Malgus
Scourge
The Emperor's Wrath II
Darth Revan

Bonus round: all of them team up against Bane and Zannah

Team 2 in a good fight

Bonus: Bane and Zannah commit suicide.

Nah, team 1. Assuming Luke fights Vitiate, Yoda cleans house with anyone (or any two) people he fights, and the rest of it goes in favor of team 1 just for the sake of number advantage (and Scourge being the weakest one here).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, team 1. Assuming Luke fights Vitiate, Yoda cleans house with anyone (or any two) people he fights, and the rest of it goes in favor of team 1 just for the sake of number advantage (and Scourge being the weakest one here).

GGitiate via spirit.

GG Force Light/Force Harmony.

No an work against a being neither light or dark

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, team 1. Assuming Luke fights Vitiate, Yoda cleans house with anyone (or any two) people he fights, and the rest of it goes in favor of team 1 just for the sake of number advantage (and Scourge being the weakest one here).
Yoda isn't soloing the Dread Masters in a short span of time. They will preoccupy him.

Lord Scourge isn't the weakest link here; he is an expert swordsman with shatterpoint abilities and heavy gear for protection.

I expect one of the Sith to achieve a breakthrough (presumably Darth Malgus) and then the tide would slowly shift in the favor of Team 1.

If the battle lasts long enough then there is also the possibility of Valkorion defeating Luke Skywalker and proceeding to turn the tide afterwards.

Hm... Not sure.

Luke fights Vitiate, meanwhile Yoda fights the Dread Masters. Neither fight ends quickly. Then Jadus, Scourge, Malgus, Wrath and Revan > Durron, Jaina, Kyle, Ben and Mara.

Ben, Kyle and Mara would lose to any of Vitiates team imo.

I'd wager that the Dread could hold off the 4 weakest members of team 1 while the rest gangrape.

Team 1 dies under bombardment of lightning storms.

Lol

Luke blitzes and kills Vitiate in fifteen or so seconds. (too fast and powerful -> force a melee)
Yoda shitstomps the Dead Masters. (They're jokes in actual combat, are nothing next to Vitiate)
Kenobi loses to Jadus due to teleportation, but slowly. (Vader couldn't ragdoll him)
Mara Jade probably beats Malgus
Jains crushes Scourge
Kyp ragdolls the Wrath
Kyle probably beats Darth Revan (he's implied to be close enough to Luke in sabers for me to hover him between Anakin and Obi Wan)


Luke's team wins

If we're going with retarded shit like that then Vitiate can legit solo this lol

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke blitzes and kills Vitiate in fifteen or so seconds. (too fast and powerful -> force a melee)
Back to posting nonsense?

http://i.imgur.com/dxfKVt0.gif

http://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yoda shitstomps the Dead Masters. (They're jokes in actual combat, are nothing next to Vitiate)
Yours are jokes, not them.

Dread Masters were really powerful and dangerous. It took a coalition of Republic and Empire to stop them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Mara Jade probably beats Malgus
No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Jains crushes Scourge
No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Kyp ragdolls the Wrath
No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Kyle probably beats Darth Revan (he's implied to be close enough to Luke in sabers for me to hover him between Anakin and Obi Wan)
No.

Darth Revan >>> Kyle Katarn

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke's team wins
You are wrong about almost everything here.

"Almost?"

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Almost?"
Here is a surprising claim of his:

"Kenobi loses to Jadus due to teleportation, but slowly. (Vader couldn't ragdoll him)"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
http://i.imgur.com/dxfKVt0.gif

http://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.gif


Much like Darth Ant, you're good at obsessively compiling random quotes and gifs, but horrible at actually using them for anything. Vitiate being able to deal with the likes of Arcann does not translate into his being able to handle Skywalker, and if you want to map that translation you have to actually do some sort of analysis beyond saying he's "extremely powerful" or whatever other cringe-worthy adjective dropping you're inevitably going to resort to.

Luke is faster than Vitiate, who has no speed feats, and pre-Valkorion Vitiate has never demonstrated the ability to barrier-block lightsaber strikes. Luke tosses his lightsaber at Vitiate, forcing him to defend himself, while bumrushing him, catching his saber and then killing him at close quarters.





"really powerful and dangerous" - oh my god, your English would make a neanderthal cringe. Can you say something more meaningful than that? Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were also "really powerful and dangerous", and look how long that lasted them against Sidious.

Now to actually analyze their abilities rather than resorting to meaningless adjectives (I do wonder how many dozens of times I'm going to have to point this out before you finally get an inlking of your mental problem), the dread masters lose to strike teams whose shown and stated power levels pale in comparison to that of the B-team. Their primary strength, telepathy, certainly isn't going to work against Yoda in the 2 seconds they'll have before they get sliced and diced, given that they lack any meaningful feats in close quarters.



Interestingly enough, these are four of the more coherent replies I've seen you make. Mara Jade had Darth Caedus at her mercy, who outstrips Malgus in every meaningful category given his ability to challenge Luke and canonically superior strength in the Force to Darth Vader (admittedly the latter accolade comes a few months later). Kyp Durron is implied multiple times to rival Skywalker in raw power, an implication made more apparent by his dorvin basil manipulation and using freighters as telekinetic ramming weapons. Jaina has fought said Kyp to a standstill.



Darth Revan is the same Revan that was oneshotted and enslaved by pre-novel Vitiate. Kyle Katarn was regarded as a threat by Caedus. Katarn pimp slaps him.



Of course you think that. You also think that "Dread Masters were really powerful and dangerous" as an argument for why they can stand up to Yoda doesn't make people cringe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
you're good at obsessively compiling random quotes and gifs, but horrible at actually using them for anything. Vitiate being able to deal with the likes of Arcann does not translate into his being able to handle Skywalker, and if you want to map that translation you have to actually do some sort of analysis beyond saying he's "extremely powerful" or whatever other cringe-worthy adjective dropping you're inevitably going to resort to.

Dropped a bomb on em.

Dude, it's seriously uncool to make fun of a guy for not being fluent in a second language. Legend being able to debate in a language other than his native tongue is awesome. I'd like to see you try it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, it's seriously uncool to make fun of a guy for not being fluent in a second language. Legend being able to debate in a language other than his native tongue is awesome. I'd like to see you try it.

tbh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, it's seriously uncool to make fun of a guy for not being fluent in a second language. Legend being able to debate in a language other than his native tongue is awesome. I'd like to see you try it.

It's not how eloquent he sounds, it's the fact that he keeps obsessing over vague and meaningless accolades and just posts them without bothering to explain why they matter.

And Legend makes enough condescending remarks for me to feel justified in reciprocating.

"oh my god, your English would make a neanderthal cringe."

You're dissing his English, which his ghey. And now you're dodging the shit you said like 10 minutes ago, which is also ghey. Are you homo bro? You're looking pretty homo atm ngl.

Yes, because he's relying on figurative devices...made in English, that happen to be meaningless. Were he making a substantive argument not dependent on English fluff, my criticisms would be red herrings. But as of now, they're not.

Criticise without being a dick maybe???

I wasn't a dick the first thirty six times I pointed it out, but I'd still get condescending and arrogant rebukes that I didn't understand the "rules of debating" and should learn them.

You should PM me if you wanna keep defending your lover, but I'm telling you, he ain't no nebaris.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Much like Darth Ant, you're good at obsessively compiling random quotes and gifs, but horrible at actually using them for anything. Vitiate being able to deal with the likes of Arcann does not translate into his being able to handle Skywalker, and if you want to map that translation you have to actually do some sort of analysis beyond saying he's "extremely powerful" or whatever other cringe-worthy adjective dropping you're inevitably going to resort to.
Those gifs demonstrate a fact that Valkorion isn't defenseless against Lightsaber-wielding opponents. Luke Skywalker isn't going to achieve shit when his Lightsaber strikes will be repelled.

You don't have a point here unfortunately.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke is faster than Vitiate, who has no speed feats, and pre-Valkorion Vitiate has never demonstrated the ability to barrier-block lightsaber strikes. Luke tosses his lightsaber at Vitiate, forcing him to defend himself, while bumrushing him, catching his saber and then killing him at close quarters.
And the parroting continues.

1. Prove that Luke Skywalker is faster than Valkorion.
2. Valkorion does have speed feats; it requires a functioning brain to figure them out.
3. You didn't clarify that this is Vitiate or Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


"really powerful and dangerous" - oh my god, your English would make a neanderthal cringe. Can you say something more meaningful than that? Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were also "really powerful and dangerous", and look how long that lasted them against Sidious.
Provide evidence of Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto being regarded as "really powerful and dangerous."

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Now to actually analyze their abilities rather than resorting to meaningless adjectives (I do wonder how many dozens of times I'm going to have to point this out before you finally get an inlking of your mental problem), the dread masters lose to strike teams whose shown and stated power levels pale in comparison to that of the B-team. Their primary strength, telepathy, certainly isn't going to work against Yoda in the 2 seconds they'll have before they get sliced and diced, given that they lack any meaningful feats in close quarters.
Your precious B-Team represented a bunch of losers. Nothing else.

Prove that Dread Masters telepathy won't affect Yoda. All I see is baseless assumptions in your responses.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Interestingly enough, these are four of the more coherent replies I've seen you make. Mara Jade had Darth Caedus at her mercy, who outstrips Malgus in every meaningful category given his ability to challenge Luke and canonically superior strength in the Force to Darth Vader (admittedly the latter accolade comes a few months later). Kyp Durron is implied multiple times to rival Skywalker in raw power, an implication made more apparent by his dorvin basil manipulation and using freighters as telekinetic ramming weapons. Jaina has fought said Kyp to a standstill.
Mara Jade lured Darth Caedus to a setting where she could make the best use of her skill-set. She avoided a confrontation with the latter in a more open environment because she knew that she would fail. And she failed even in the setting of her choice. You don't have a convincing argument in this case.

Kyp Durron is decent but he lacks in dueling skills.

Jaina is on par with Satele Shan at maximum.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Darth Revan is the same Revan that was oneshotted and enslaved by pre-novel Vitiate. Kyle Katarn was regarded as a threat by Caedus. Katarn pimp slaps him.
Great logic here. And then you accuse me of using adjectives.

Being a threat to someone doesn't implies parity. A man with a gun is a threat to a squad of police officers but he wouldn't stand a chance against them in a confrontation. You don't have a point yet again.

Vitiate >>>>>>>>>>>> Kyle Katarn by the way.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Of course you think that. You also think that "Dread Masters were really powerful and dangerous" as an argument for why they can stand up to Yoda doesn't make people cringe.
And you taking the word "threat" is much more cringe-worthy, you troll.

Originally posted by Trocity
Dropped a bomb on em.
Far from it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those gifs demonstrate a fact that Valkorion isn't defenseless against Lightsaber-wielding opponents. Luke Skywalker isn't going to achieve shit when his Lightsaber strikes will be repelled.

You don't have a point here unfortunately.


And the parroting continues.

1. Prove that Luke Skywalker is faster than Valkorion.

Prove that Dread Masters telepathy won't affect Yoda. All I see is baseless assumptions in your responses.

Jaina is on par with Satele Shan at maximum.

Prove Luke's physical strikes backed up by his massive force augmentation wouldn't do shit to Valkorion.

Prove that Valkorion is comparable to Luke in speed.

Prove the Dread Masters could affect Yoda.

Prove it.


This is fun

Originally posted by Trocity
Prove Luke's physical strikes backed up by his massive force augmentation wouldn't do shit to Valkorion.

Prove that Valkorion is comparable to Luke in speed.

Prove the Dread Masters could affect Yoda.

Prove it.


This is fun
I am responding in kind to him, since he is making assumptions that are unsubstantiated.

If you are siding with him, be my guest and prove his arguments.

Valkorion can teleport iirc, so he should be fine in terms of speed. Plus he went toe to toe with the HoT in a drastically weakened condition and starting the fight unarmed and with a lightsaber a foot from his face.

I doubt the Dread Masters can overwhelm Yoda, however it wouldn't be something he could shrug off. It'd be a furious battle of wills. This is a team fight, so that might seriously expose him. Besides which the Dread Masters are very capable of putting up a conventional battle against him using their abilities. Considering the flat out bonkers shit they can do it'd be a long contest for him.

That said, I'm only slightly leaning towards Valkorions team atm. Lukes team does have ways of pulling it off and has advantages I didn't take into account at first.

We need some NJO wank to match this SWTOR wank.

Luke solos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those gifs demonstrate a fact that Valkorion isn't defenseless against Lightsaber-wielding opponents. Luke Skywalker isn't going to achieve shit when his Lightsaber strikes will be repelled.

You don't have a point here unfortunately.


Too bad it says Vitiate in the OP, eh?



Nice try with the bluffing. Show me Vitiate's speed feats, and how they compare with Luke's (moving faster than the eye can see vs. Sidious, running across an Eclipse super star destroyer in seconds, appearing to wield 20 lightsabers at once, etc.)



Um...yes I did?



Obi Wan calls them and Windu "four of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced", which is actually a substantially better accolade than "really powerful and dangerous".



I think I've pointed out their stated status as three of the greatest swordsmen in history to you more than half a dozen times; I don't know if you honestly forget every time a new thread starts or you're just stalling for time.



Oh, the concept of burden of proof evades you, doesn't it?



So what? Caedus couldn't ragdoll her, and if you were to actually read the fight in question, though she does use her environment to her advantage, ultimately she had to engage him in melee and did break through his guard multiple times.




No, Luke places him in the same tier as Kyle, and both have pressed Luke in sparring rounds.

Regardless, dueling or not, Kyp is strong enough to kill him via the Force.



Nice arbitrary placing. Jaina is strong enough to not get ragdolled by Caedus -> has skywalker blood.



How could you have gotten the idea that I was arguing for parity? I was pointing out that Darth Revan wasn't even a threat to Vitiate, while Katarn was to Caedus.



Wow, your analogy matching is god-awful. The correct comparative is to place Vitiate against Caedus relative to Katarn against Revan.



No, because "threat" actually meaningfully places contender A's relative standing to contender B, rather than your random placements of contender A against some undefined standard of what "really powerful" refers to. It still isn't particularly precise or accurate, but it's better than utterly meaningless adjectives that you use, and it's definitely more than can be said of Darth Revan being one-shotted by Vitiate.

Even injured Caedus would have killed Katarn in seconds if not for his allies. Jacen almost cuts his legs off in a few strikes. The idea that he's a threat to Caedus or Luke is hilarious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Too bad it says Vitiate in the OP, eh?
Valkorion is a synonym of Vitiate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice try with the bluffing. Show me Vitiate's speed feats, and how they compare with Luke's (moving faster than the eye can see vs. Sidious, running across an Eclipse super star destroyer in seconds, appearing to wield 20 lightsabers at once, etc.)
Valkorion attacked and killed ('moving faster than the eye can see' in the lore) Darth Marr before the latter could react.

Similarly, Valkorion attacked and killed scores of Knights of Zakuul before they could react; one of them was about to execute Lana Beniko during this moment (his weapon in motion) when he was struck and felled on the spot. All of them were fast enough to respond to moves of Outlander, Lana Beniko and Senya during the same confrontation.

Appearing to wield 10 or 20 lightsabers at once is another meaningless point. Teneb Kel (years before his prime) have a similar showing:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e21pog.jpg

Speed was never a problem for Valkorion. Otherwise, somebody would have taken advantage of this shortcoming and blitzed him. Even ambush tactics didn't work.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um...yes I did?
Which Vitiate?

- Pre-Nathema?
- Post-Nathema?
- Disembodied?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Obi Wan calls them and Windu "four of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced", which is actually a substantially better accolade than "really powerful and dangerous".
Obi-Wan could think whatever he want; his opinion doesn't changes the fact that those Jedi Masters under-performed during a real challenge. The Jedi are known to verbally fellate their peers by the way out of humility.

Being 'one the most skilled duelist' and being 'one of the most powerful' are two different benchmarks of competence for a Force-user.

The B-Team was renowned for its dueling competence, not in the context of power. The Dread Masters are not melee-oriented combatants; they are sorcerers and easily among the best in this domain. Therefore, the Dread Masters will fight an opponent much differently than the B-Team.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think I've pointed out their stated status as three of the greatest swordsmen in history to you more than half a dozen times; I don't know if you honestly forget every time a new thread starts or you're just stalling for time.
No, I have done my homework. But you haven't as apparent from your apples and oranges comparisons.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh, the concept of burden of proof evades you, doesn't it?
You claimed that the Dread Masters would not be able to affect Yoda with their telepathic powers. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

My argument is that Yoda doesn't have much experience against offensive telepathic expressions (and opponents who are really potent with such powers). The Dread Masters are not just individually proficient in the use of telepathic powers but they also have numbers on their side. Even if two of the Dread Masters strictly focus on telepathically assaulting Yoda while the rest preoccupy him, the former two can disturb/disorient Yoda's concentration and focus (at minimum) while the remainder take advantage.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So what? Caedus couldn't ragdoll her, and if you were to actually read the fight in question, though she does use her environment to her advantage, ultimately she had to engage him in melee and did break through his guard multiple times.
Mara Jade Skywalker managed to badly injure Darth Caedus at the start of confrontation by collapsing a segment of cave over him. Therefore, Darth Caedus could not operate at his peak efficiency throughout the course of this confrontation afterwards. He could still affect Mara with his telekinetic powers, and did. But this confrontation wasn't fair for him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, Luke places him in the same tier as Kyle, and both have pressed Luke in sparring rounds.

Regardless, dueling or not, Kyp is strong enough to kill him via the Force.
Sparring rounds prove nothing. They are training sessions more or less.

Kill whom?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice arbitrary placing. Jaina is strong enough to not get ragdolled by Caedus -> has skywalker blood.
Luke Skywalker augmented the powers of Jaina Solo. Therefore, her performance in this confrontation is subject to scrutiny.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How could you have gotten the idea that I was arguing for parity? I was pointing out that Darth Revan wasn't even a threat to Vitiate, while Katarn was to Caedus.
Darth Revan was a threat to Vitiate but ultimately no match for him. Unfortunately for you, Vitiate is better than Darth Caedus in the domain of Force powers and combat strategy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wow, your analogy matching is god-awful. The correct comparative is to place Vitiate against Caedus relative to Katarn against Revan.
See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, because "threat" actually meaningfully places contender A's relative standing to contender B, rather than your random placements of contender A against some undefined standard of what "really powerful" refers to. It still isn't particularly precise or accurate, but it's better than utterly meaningless adjectives that you use, and it's definitely more than can be said of Darth Revan being one-shotted by Vitiate.
You are running out of excuses, it seems.

Vitiate one-shotted Revan (in the first confrontation) with element of surprise; his extremely well-developed (and potent) expressions of Telepathic powers that took Revan by surprise.

Darth Caedus didn't wield the aforementioned trump card against kyle Katarn and other Jedi however.

Vitiate has combat strategy now? I thought he just walked into people's lightsabers. Caedus' tactical ability must be absolute shit if Vitiate's the better strategist in combat.