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Who from the PT/OT would you compare Bane to in terms of power/lightsaber skill?

Colemon Tebor if Colemon can't use the Force would probably barely beat Bane with great difficulty.

I'd say Padme would lose solidly to him.

Is that what you actually think

Originally posted by Rebel95
Who from the PT/OT would you compare Bane to in terms of power/lightsaber skill?
Nobody, otherwise his plan was a complete and utter failure. Even more than it already is.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nobody, otherwise his plan was a complete and utter failure. Even more than it already is.
So you think everyone in the PT/OT era is more powerful than Darth Bane? Very unlikely

You shouldn't expect a serious answer to this, bro.

Call me when Vader can throw couches and kill guards with telekinesis

Kidding aside I may post a serious answer when I get back on my computer.

Originally posted by Rebel95
So you think everyone in the PT/OT era is more powerful than Darth Bane? Very unlikely
Name someone in the PT/OT era who should be? Like literally anyone. Banites spent hundreds of years gaining power, but only goes up like a tier? That is what is very unlikely.

*Looks into the camera like its an episode of the Office*

You won't get a serious answer to this question here.

At least, that's what it will look like. One side of the Bane debacle will post something as utterly nonsensical as the other side will. What constitutes as a 'serious answer' is entirely up to you and your preconceived notions of the character's abilities.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Name someone in the PT/OT era who should be? Like literally anyone. Banites spent hundreds of years gaining power, but only goes up like a tier? That is what is very unlikely.
First of all, that would only apply to the sith, not the jedi.
Also do you have proof that each apprentice became more powerful than their master for a thousand years? I find that really hard to believe. Zannah wasn't more powerful than Bane yet she managed to succeed him, how do you know this isn't the case with any of the other masters/apprentices?

Originally posted by Aurbere
You won't get a serious answer to this question here.

At least, that's what it will look like. One side of the Bane debacle will post something as utterly nonsensical as the other side will. What constitutes as a 'serious answer' is entirely up to you and your preconceived notions of the character's abilities.
I am sick and tired of your level-headedness, Aurb. Go back to the TOR forum where that is sorely needed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You shouldn't expect a serious answer to this, bro.
I know. Shame on me for expecting an actual honest discussion

It really shouldn't apply to people like Maul, Dooku, and Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I am sick and tired of your level-headedness, Aurb. Go back to the TOR forum where that is sorely needed.

I unsubbed tho.

It's hard to be exact, but even relative to the higher ups of the movie era, Bane is very powerful. He's a total Gary Stu.

Originally posted by Rebel95
First of all, that would only apply to the sith, not the jedi.

The Jedi aren't really that far behind the Sith, no one named anyway. You can compare him to the randoms who were shot on Geonosis if you want, though I wouldn't advise it.

The fact that it's flat out stated?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Jedi aren't really that far behind the Sith, no one named anyway. You can compare him to the randoms who were shot on Geonosis if you want, though I wouldn't advise it.

The fact that it's flat out stated?
Where?
Zannah wasn't more powerful than Bane yet she managed to succeed him, how do you know this isn't the case with any of the other masters/apprentices?

Originally posted by ILS
It's hard to be exact, but even relative to the higher ups of the movie era, Bane is very powerful. He's a total Gary Stu.



Karpyshan honestly did write him as a total Stu. He even only loses because Zannah essentially cheats. Drew made Bane look like her superior in every way and he spent so much time fleshing out how awesome Bane is without giving her much of anything awesome.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Where?
Zannah wasn't more powerful than Bane yet she managed to succeed him, how do you know this isn't the case with any of the other masters/apprentices?
I don't have Force and Destiny anymore, but it's definitely in the there, for starters, each generation of Banite Sith, excluding the likes of Maul/Dooku/Vader, etc, is more powerful than the last. People like the above or DMB don't like that fact so they generally ignore it in favor of wanking the way he's portrayed in the novel.

Based on that logic, wouldn't all the ancient sith be wimps? lol

The Ancient Sith aren't in the Rule of Two, so it doesn't apply to them.

My bad I meant the sith/jedi during Bane's era. I find it hard to believe that all the jedi/sith of his time were weak compared to those of the PT era

Bane's the most powerful Sith in hundreds of years by DoE, but the Jedi and Sith must have been something, even if stated otherwise.

Originally posted by Rebel95
My bad I meant the sith/jedi during Bane's era. I find it hard to believe that all the jedi/sith of his time were weak compared to those of the PT era

Logically, they should be. But since Karpyshyn has no idea what moderation and overkill are, it's not as definitive as people would like it to be. It takes more effort than it should to push PT development over the DBT Jedi/Sith.

So all Bane trolling aside, if we want to judge Bane's power we have a few data points to work with.


He's supposed to be one of the weaker members of the Banite sith. The entire purpose of the Rule of Two is for the Sith to grow stronger with each generation - and yes, some of this progress may be encoded in non-martial areas, but it's clear from the descriptions of Darth Sidious being the "culmination" of the Rule of 2 in conjunction with lionizing his power, and Bane's own interest in the apprentice facing down the master in a one vs. one, that personal power is also supposed to trend upwards. It probably isn't a perfect trend, but over 1000 years that's probably where it goes. So, Bane is likely far, far weaker than Palpatine (it would be pretty unimpressive for the power creep in 1000 years to be minimal). Whether this puts him below Dooku, Vader or Maul depends on whether you think they count as "true" inheritors of the Rule.
He knocks down the foundations of a pretty huge temple. Granted, he charges his attack and had a nexus to work with, but for the latter we do know that Bane is faster in RoT than he ever had been, and faster in DoE than he is in RoT. If his strength in the Force scales the same way, he's likely surpassed his nexus-amped self. This is a little difficult of a feat to judge though, partially because he charged his wave and partially because I get a feeling that he had an aldrenaline fueled rage moment, given that he fails to replicate this any other time in the trilogy.
He struggles pretty mightily against random shadow assassins who can resist his TK (and yet were stated in PoD to be no match for Jedi), mercenaries, etc. Granted, even Luke has notoriously had bad showings, but for Bane, these seem to be the norm, with a few peaks every once in a while.
His growth curve is very impressive, going from having no experience with the Force (beyond using it subconsciously as a soldier and inadvertently killing his father) to defeating the blademaster in the course of a few months.
He is apparently beyond Annedu to the point where he can dominate his holocron (which according to Legacy has his spirit stored away in it).
Even with orbalisks and a nexus, he struggles against Ratska Lsu.


Taken in together, I'd say that he has to be substantially below Plagueis or Tenebrous for the Rule of Two to make any sense. I'd wager a guess and say that he's below Vader as well, as Vader isn't astronomically below the Emperor. His temple busting feat probably puts him above, say, Ventress as a Force wielder, but I don't think he consistently demonstrates the feats to place him on par with RotS Anakin. As a duelist, his prodigious growth might put him above Obi Wan in his prime, but again, still likely below Anakin. The PT Jedi are far, far beyond the Brotherhood, so him struggling against Ratska makes me wary of this.

So in the Force, he would probably lose to mid-CW Anakin.
As a duelist, he'd probably split with CW Maul.
All-out I'd place him in between Anakin and Obi Wan.

Some of this is kind of arbitrary.

----




jk Bane sucks.

Originally posted by Rebel95
My bad I meant the sith/jedi during Bane's era. I find it hard to believe that all the jedi/sith of his time were weak compared to those of the PT era The Brotherhood of Darkness definitely seem like one of the weakest eras of the Sith. Their philosophy contradicted itself and didn't promote growth or the pursuit of power, and they threw out any and all teachings the ancient Sith had that would have helped them a shit ton.

Thanks that was the response I was looking for

The average brotherhood Lord is still a Jedi Master level opponent. The nonames of the brotherhood shouldn't be treated as somehow lower than the nonames of any other order. Though admittedly the Brotherhood does lack the number of powerhouses that other Sith Orders have, which is kinda the point of the equalist failings of the brotherhood.

Sith Lords in the brotherhood are Jedi Master level opponents, not Padawan level scrubs.

I'd gladly wager an ancient Sith Lord, or a post-RotJ Sith Lord would pretty much always exceed a BoD Sith Lord. Let alone movie era. I can't think of an era we know much about where weaker Sith were produced. All of the main ones seem better.

Well yeah that's what I was saying. The Brotherhood definitely lacks stand out main powerhouses, but the quality of your average run of the mill master shouldn't be assumed lower than that of any other era. That actually does make sense with the philosophical failings. They teach the techniques and shit well enough to develop an average consistently powerful Sith, but the equality thing is a constrictive chain that keeps few from rising above that norm.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well yeah that's what I was saying. The Brotherhood definitely lacks stand out main powerhouses, but the quality of your average run of the mill master shouldn't be assumed lower than that of any other era. That actually does make sense with the philosophical failings. They teach the techniques and shit well enough to develop an average consistently powerful Sith, but the equality thing is a constrictive chain that keeps few from rising above that norm. I'd disagree. The simple fact is these other eras of Sith I'm talking about are extremely competitive. They promote competition, rivalry and backstabbing. Kaan's brotherhood doesn't.

Who is going to be more powerful, one of Kaan's backwards Sith with little ambition other than to serve the Brotherhood as an equal to every other Sith Lord, or one of Darth Krayt's Sith who are constantly vying for a place underneath him as an enforcer or hand? Constantly deceiving and backstabbing each other for a chance to gain promotion?

Also, it just occurred to me that this could be another way to wank the DotJ era. Wewt.

The most important factor seems to be Force potential, and it's tough to figure out how that would vary between eras. It's probably partially a matter of recruitment and retention, and partially just a matter of the Force acting randomly. We know that the dark side has grown in strength from Bane to Sidious, for example. And maybe Bane is literally right in saying that the dark side grows weaker as it is spread too thin.

Force potential is definitely important. What I also see is that every great Force user became great because they were forced to push their limits. Which is why it makes sense for Jedi and Sith during periods of war to see rapid growth; they're being tested.

It's actually said in Path of Destruction pretty explicitly. Sirak was a great duelist, better than everyone else at the academy by a long shot, but he lacked valuable experience. He didn't ever fight difficult opponents, he mopped the floor with everyone. The reason Bane became so much better than Sirak is because he sparred with the best. And because he's a Gary Stu, but yeah.

So with Kaan's Sith not only formally forbidding, but philosophically looking down upon competition and rivalry between Sith, they don't have the means to push themselves as far as Sith who are at each other's throats constantly.

Kaan's academies promote enough rivalry in the training of the Sith as well, and these Sith are pitted in war against Force wielding opponents. I highly doubt they don't have enough obstacles to overcome to actually work.

In any case, I actually made a little respect thread addressing this. I'm not arguing the BoD has an abundance of powerhouses, merely that the average noname of the brotherhood shouldn't be assumed to be any weaker than the nonames of any other era.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/brotherhood-of-darkness-sith-lord-respect-thread/125691/

Fact of the matter is is that the Sith Masters can match Jedi Masters in combat and are more powerful than an entire division of soldiers while Marauders (the weakest developed Sith in the order) are capable of stomping Jedi Padawans.

Uh, no, the Lords in the brotherhood were weaker than their half-trained apprentices on Korriban. They were being beaten by an Army of Light that pretty much gave force sensitive street rats lightsabers and called them Jedi. The standards of that era on both sides were absolutely abysmal.

Luke could probably solo all of them TUF style.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't have Force and Destiny anymore, but it's definitely in the there, for starters, each generation of Banite Sith, excluding the likes of Maul/Dooku/Vader, etc, is more powerful than the last. People like the above or DMB don't like that fact so they generally ignore it in favor of wanking the way he's portrayed in the novel.
Eh I have Plagueis>Bane and people seem to have Sheev and Yoda far above any other Jedi or Sith in the era, so this quote doesn't really damage my view of Bane regardless. In any case, could you hook me up with a scan? I'm currently working on an RT for all the intermediary Banite Sith.

They certainly need more respect, although it's not like there's enough information on them to make a decent respect thread out of.

Not sure why people are reluctant to accept that characters like Cognus, Millenial, Vectivus, Gravid, Gean, Ramage, and Tenebrous are Bane level Sith Lords or higher though tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, no, the Lords in the brotherhood were weaker than their half-trained apprentices on Korriban. They were being beaten by an Army of Light that pretty much gave force sensitive street rats lightsabers and called them Jedi. The standards of that era on both sides were absolutely abysmal. Yeah, that's the impression I'm getting as well.

@DMB btw, that Sith Marauder accolade isn't as great as you say it is. The accolade in context mentions that members of both sides saw personal advancement, and that Padawans "could survive" against Marauders. That doesn't translate into Marauders rekting padawans most of the time, unless you're being generous.

That said, I'm not under the impression an average Sith Lord from Kaan's age is necessarily padawan-level. Just that they don't stack up to the Sith Lords of other eras. I think it's particularly telling that the Korriban apprentices are supposed to be what turns Rusaan in the Sith's favour given that, as Sas said, it's mostly made up of half-trained apprentices.

There also isn't a universal standard for what makes a good Sith in those days. The strength of the Sith produced seemed to have something to do with where they were trained. I can't understand how an apprentice with unfinished training from Korriban can be superior to a Sith Lord from another system, and still be told this era of Sith isn't sub-par.

Millenial wouldn't get that scaling. He left the order without overthrowing Cognus.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh I have Plagueis>Bane and people seem to have Sheev and Yoda far above any other Jedi or Sith in the era, so this quote doesn't really damage my view of Bane regardless. In any case, could you hook me up with a scan? I'm currently working on an RT for all the intermediary Banite Sith.
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious_zpskvaxbphu.png

Maul>Sidious>Plagueis confirmed!

It's over ILS! You've won!

nah but thanks for the scan, I don't actually own the book.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Millenial wouldn't get that scaling. He left the order without overthrowing Cognus.

Maybe, maybe not. To be fair, we don't really know at what point in his training he defected from the Rule of Two. I suspect it was pretty late in, given that he left due to disillusionment with Bane's philosophy and went on to create his own Sith faction.

nevermind, pussylips

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul>Sidious>Plagueis confirmed!

It's over ILS! You've won!


ILS celebrated before the book went on to wank Palpatine and put Maul down.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Millenial wouldn't get that scaling. He left the order without overthrowing Cognus.

Speaking of Millennial, I really wish there had been more information on him. I mean a 3 eyed cyclops Force User? Sounds pretty cool.

Vader.

His fighting style is something of a hybrid of a Vader and a Dooku, but his overall ability level should be hanging somewhere around Maul.

Mauls raw force ability?
That kinda power scaling....I would think Bane is higher than Maul in the force.

But I think Bane is..a Makashi duelist with a hard swing and instead of swaying and evasion he will block them directly with the grace of an over powering sword fighter.

I don't think you said a single correct thing. Not even one.

Bane can't drop ETA shuttles while injured, ragdoll Kenobi, or cause a force image to haunt Leia decades after TPM

Bane's force abilities aside from lightnin while unamped are garbage

Originally posted by ILS
I'd disagree. The simple fact is these other eras of Sith I'm talking about are extremely competitive. They promote competition, rivalry and backstabbing. Kaan's brotherhood doesn't.

Who is going to be more powerful, one of Kaan's backwards Sith with little ambition other than to serve the Brotherhood as an equal to every other Sith Lord, or one of Darth Krayt's Sith who are constantly vying for a place underneath him as an enforcer or hand? Constantly deceiving and backstabbing each other for a chance to gain promotion?

Also, it just occurred to me that this could be another way to wank the DotJ era. Wewt.

The Brotherhood Sith compete with the Jedi though. Constant warfare would achieve the same thing and possibly more than what Krayts Sith backstabbing each other would.

Originally posted by ILS
Force potential is definitely important. What I also see is that every great Force user became great because they were forced to push their limits. Which is why it makes sense for Jedi and Sith during periods of war to see rapid growth; they're being tested.

It's actually said in Path of Destruction pretty explicitly. Sirak was a great duelist, better than everyone else at the academy by a long shot, but he lacked valuable experience. He didn't ever fight difficult opponents, he mopped the floor with everyone. The reason Bane became so much better than Sirak is because he sparred with the best. And because he's a Gary Stu, but yeah.

So with Kaan's Sith not only formally forbidding, but philosophically looking down upon competition and rivalry between Sith, they don't have the means to push themselves as far as Sith who are at each other's throats constantly.

Lol you actually point out that war is a great time to see rapid growth but failed to connect the dots with the Brotherhood.

Seeing as the war ended up being a meat grinder I'd say it had the opposite effect.

On par with Count Dooku in a neutral setting, IMO.

Essentially this: Darth Vader > Darth Bane >= Count Dooku > Darth Maul

As far as Brotherhood Sith are concerned; they strayed from the teachings of ancient Sith and embraced the philosophy of equality instead. Due to this factor, they were not interested in developing new powers and/or rediscover them. There curriculum was limited to standard practices. Therefore, the Order holistically declined in competence.

In comparison, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire embraced the philosophy of 'survival of the fittest' and encouraged cutthroat competition towards this end. Ancient Sith were free to develop new powers and/or rediscover secrets of the past. They also had the option to settle their longstanding disputes in a fair manner via Kaggath system (for the honorable types). Unfortunately, internal rivalries and politics eventually got the better of them during the Great Galactic War; otherwise, they were really close to defeating a vastly superior enemy in terms of available resources.

Rule of Two Sith also adopted the merits of ancient Sith but decided against training legions of quality Sith due to threat of rivalry and backstabbing.

Bane's around TCW Maul level. I can't see him being outright better in categories other than Force knowledge.

And the Brotherhood of Darkness is indeed the weakest Sith Order we know of.

You must have a low opinion of Maul if you think he's near Bane's level

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Brotherhood Sith compete with the Jedi though. Constant warfare would achieve the same thing and possibly more than what Krayts Sith backstabbing each other would.

Lol you actually point out that war is a great time to see rapid growth but failed to connect the dots with the Brotherhood. I'm not saying they totally stagnated and got nowhere. I'm sure every Sith who fought in the war grew to an extent from it. That doesn't preclude the possibility that these Sith are weaker than Sith from other eras.