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Battle of the arcane powers. Force/Magick-only. Full restoration after each round.

Round 1: Tatooine
Round 2: Dathomir

Warmup: Aleema Keto
1 - Ludo Kressh
2 - Naga Sadow
3 - Marka Ragnos
4 - Karness Muur
5 - Freedon Nadd
6 - Exar Kun
7 - Emperor Vitiate
8 - Emperor Valkorion
9 - RotJ Darth Sidious
10 - DE Darth Sidious

She's on par with Sheev, which means she rolls through the first 5 rounds. She probably defeats Kun and Vitiate with moderate difficulty, potentially loses to Valkoriate, and loses to all iterations of Sheev.

I thought she was only on par when Maul gave her his aid. Before that, she could "go toe-to-toe" with Sheev but not outright match him.

Does the first round being set on Tatooine make any difference?

To be fair, Dooku was pitching in for Sheev as well. I'd say she's more or less Sheev's equal on Dathomir, at the heart of her power. Otherwise she's Windu/Dooku+.

IIRC she gets special amp from being on Dathomir, so round 1 stops at Kun or Vity, probably Vity though. Round 2 stops at Valkorion. On a side note, lmao @ the notion of Sheev > Valkorion

Dooku just regained consciousness after Talzin attacked and possessed him and Sidious electrocuted him, lol. As I recall, Sidious was winning by a slight margin, then Maul pitched in to equalize it. Then Dooku came in and turned it back in Sheev's favor, prompting Talzin to throw Maul away and sacrifice herself.

How far does she get off-Dathomir, then?

Read the beginning of my post

I was talking to Temp. But your opinion is noted.

I doubt Sheev KOing Tyranus would have much an effect on him, but Talzin draining his energies could have possibly diminished him in the short term. So valid point there?

Off-Dathomir, I'd stand by my assessment.

Down at Lord Kun.

@Temp - Talzin's Drain almost certainly weakened him.

If she's Windu/Dooku+, how far does she get in this? This is a Sorcery-based gauntlet, so it's harder to judge when you give me examples of people who don't have any arcane powers.

Ah, so it's just rituals/sorcery/magic?

Indeed it is.

7.

Like her voodoo rituals with Dooku?

Exar Kun or Vitiate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sheev





http://i.imgur.com/q3iCWqE.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was talking to Temp. But your opinion is noted.

Ah, lo siento

Round 1: Stops at 4

Round 2: Stops at 7

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like her voodoo rituals with Dooku?

Yes, but she's not going to have time to do that in a fight. We're assuming that they meet each other at 10m distance, etc.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Otherwise she's Windu/Dooku+. How did you reach that conclusion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How did you reach that conclusion.

Because she held her own against Windu?

I more meant that Dathomir was so powerful as to make her Palpatine tier, seems that Talzin is a powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious on any ground to me.

Round 1: 4 tbh.
Round 2: 6.

Talzin stopping at Kun? Do you think Kun has what it takes to go toe-to-toe with Sidious?

Yes.

Well, he can go toe-to-toe, but he'll end up losing more decisively than Talzin, in my opinion. Talzin came fairly close to stalemating Sidious, which I don't think Kun can do. He approaches RotS Sheev, but is ultimately a clear inferior.

I think going toe-to-toe with Sidious isn't the impossible feat everybody makes it out to be, furthermore Talzin wasn't simply in the center of her power, she had Maul's power to boot.

Also, this is pure sorcery, so her lightning feats aren't all that applicable, Kun simply is the better sorcery/alchemy master imo.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I think going toe-to-toe with Sidious isn't the impossible feat everybody makes it out to be,

Originally posted by AncientPower
I think going toe-to-toe with Sidious isn't the impossible feat everybody makes it out to be, furthermore Talzin wasn't simply in the center of her power, she had Maul's power to boot.

I didn't say it's impossible. Were it the case, Talzin wouldn't have accomplished it.

She was going toe-to-toe with him before she had Maul's support. When Maul lent her his aid, she actually drew with him. Of course, Dooku chose to awoke at that moment and turned the tide back in Sheev's favor.



I didn't say that this is pure Sorcery, I said this is Force-only/Magick only. These are just combatants who would happen to use Sorcerous powers in that circumstance. And given her rather eldritch powers, it's entirely possible that her Lightning is some sort of Sorcery.

Cool but Plagueis, Krayt, Caedus, Gethzerion, Joruus C'boath, Exar Kun, and Revan, though I bet I'm missing a few, should all be capable of going toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious, not win of course, but hold their own against him.

Amped Talzin isn't some sudden Yoda tier powerhouse for doing what she did, it means she can do better than Mace Windu, logically even Vader should replicate her feat barring his limitations.

Sidious gets a little too highly rated sometimes tbh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Cool but Plagueis, Krayt, Caedus, Gethzerion, Joruus C'boath, Exar Kun, and Revan, though I bet I'm missing a few, should all be capable of going toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious, not win of course, but hold their own against him.

Amped Talzin isn't some sudden Yoda tier powerhouse for doing what she did, it means she can do better than Mace Windu, logically even Vader should replicate her feat barring his limitations.

I already said others can go toe-to-toe with him, but not to the same degree that Talzin did. She was close to stalemating him, which I'll be damned if Caedus or Joruus or Revan can do.



Hush, child. You'll attract the Valkorion fanboys here, and I don't have the energy to waste on all of you guys at once.

How can you hope to avoid us...

WHEN WE ARE ALREADY HERE!

Why exactly is the degree to which she matched TCW Sidious such an insurmountable feat for the people listed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can you hope to avoid us...

WHEN WE ARE ALREADY HERE!

Here and getting curbed, sure. But I associate you so much with Darth Bane that I don't even class you as a Valkoriate anymore.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why exactly is the degree to which she matched TCW Sidious such an insurmountable feat for the people listed?

Do you think those names you listed (especially the ones I pointed out) can come close to stalemating Sheev?

More importantly, even if they performed just as well, they'd only match Talzin, not beat her. To beat her, they'd basically have to stalemate Sheev.

SoR Revan definitely, the other two are debatable. Plagueis, Reborn Krayt, Exar Kun and Gethzerion, certainly.

Again holding your own and winning are two very different things with Sidious.

I didn't say any of them, Talzin included, could win against Sidious...

coming close to stalemating is clearly better than just holding your own, which is what SunRazer is saying.

I love that people constantly bring up the fact she was in the "heart of her power" (though nowhere is that stated to be a direct force amp), and that Dooku was weakened because he'd just regained consciousness... Yet no one ever notes the fact she had literally just been brought back to life, or that the process is stated to have likely weakened her

Honestly, I think in a neutral setting she would hold her own against Sidious, likely losing the majority of the time though.

On Dathomir, at full strength, she would have bested him. There is a reason Sidious could not simply storm Dathomir and take her on himself, he clearly viewed it as a colossal risk. The only thing that changed to make him journey there was her revival, it stands to reason than that it weakened her...

I doubt she could have bested him, especially considering she was afraid of TPM Palpatine when they first met, but yeah Dathomir isn't even that powerful a nexus, all it would have done is negate her weakened condition.

EDIT: Correction, it her followers who were afraid of him. But I believe Palpatine promised to make her his subordinate.

It wasn't about Sidious being able to win, it was about him being unable to permanently kill her. Normally, she would have just misted away like she did in S4, but she couldn't because Maul was there.

Sidious needed to 1.) Get her to physically manifest. 2.) Get her in situation where she can't just escape.

IDK why he didn't go for orbital bombardment.

...because she would have escaped.

Of the whole planet

She can traverse space bro.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It wasn't about Sidious being able to win, it was about him being unable to permanently kill her. Normally, she would have just misted away like she did in S4, but she couldn't because Maul was there.

Sidious needed to 1.) Get her to physically manifest. 2.) Get her in situation where she can't just escape.

Indeed, I believe however that her ability to twist the battle where she pleases (like she couldn't with Maul) or give herself time to prepare, would result in her victory.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I doubt she could have bested him, especially considering she was afraid of TPM Palpatine when they first met, but yeah Dathomir isn't even that powerful a nexus, all it would have done is negate her weakened condition.

EDIT: Correction, it her followers who were afraid of him. But I believe Palpatine promised to make her his subordinate.

He promised to make her his right hand... And then didn't.

I guess you need to focus on why he didn't, he chose her weaker son instead. The reason is quite clearly because she's close enough to his equal that under the right conditions she could end his life without a second thought.

That's quite a big assumption.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's quite a big assumption.

Given he wanted to survive whichever apprentice he chose, please give me a single other explanation for why he turned down the most powerful dark force user alive in the galaxy...

Originally posted by Selenial
He promised to make her his right hand... And then didn't.

I guess you need to focus on why he didn't, he chose her weaker son instead. The reason is quite clearly because she's close enough to his equal that under the right conditions she could end his life without a second thought.

...or it's because Maul was incredibly special, and just never lived up to his full potential.

Noting that Sidious only cast her aside after he "realised Maul's potential" - indicating he had every intention to make her his subordinate prior to that revelation.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
...or it's because Maul was incredibly special, and just never lived up to his full potential.

.... And if Talzin was his right hand, how does that exclude him from having Maul trained as his as well?

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Noting that Sidious only cast her aside after he "realised Maul's potential" - indicating he had every intention to make her his subordinate prior to that revelation.

Maul's potential as a perfectly obedient near-slave to his will, yes.

Originally posted by Selenial
.... And if Talzin was his right hand, how does that exclude him from having Maul trained as his as well?Because he intended to make Maul his right hand in her place...Nope, as his successor. Although that's beside the point I was making.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because he intended to make Maul his right hand in her place...Nope, as his successor. Although that's beside the point I was making.

What? Palpatine never intended to have a successor, he believed himself to be the pinnacle of the Sith and made sure he never could be overthrown. It's why he had Ventress eliminated

And you're failing to understand, having Maul and Talzin and having just Maul makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to how effective Maul is, therefore his choice to leave Talzin was more the reason he left her, not maul. Bear in mind it took years to have Maul fully trained, if he did not fear Talzin as you claim, he could merely have had her until Maul came into his own and then disposed of her, but he did not.

Originally posted by Selenial
What? Palpatine never intended to have a successor, he believed himself to be the pinnacle of the Sith and made sure he never could be overthrown. It's why he had Ventress eliminated According to what source? He freely admits in RotS that Vader would surpass him, and also attempts to train Luke (and Marek) as potential successors.

Regardless, according to Witwer he was intended as a legit successor, and at the very least there is plenty of proof that Sidious trained him as a full-fledged Sith Lord, not a mindless slave.Nah first of all let's be clear on my point, that Palpatine is only said to abandon his plan to make Talzin his right hand when he discovers Maul, we are given no reason to believe that was a ruse, he was going to follow through.

Secondly of course allowing Maul to remain in Talzin's clutches, trained up to be loyal to her (his mother) and not in the Sith philosophy or the Sith ways, would make a significant difference to how effective he is. It would remove the possibility of Maul becoming his apprentice, full stop.

At the end of the day Palpatine is a proponent of the Rule of Two, he only needs one other half, and he chose Maul.

Before I reply, quote that for me since the quote I'm thinking of doesn't support your argument in the slightest mmm

I assume you mean the quote from Witwer:

"You don't just pick a guy because he can do cool flips and swing a sword good. You choose a guy who is brilliant and gifted in so many ways, physically and mentally, and can carry on the Sith tradition proudly. A thuggish hitman would be a hindrance when trying to take over the galaxy. You need someone who can work with you and to whom you can pass the baton when the time comes.

And that's a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It's so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he's found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down."

http://www.hollywood.com/tv/sam-witwer-on-darth-maul-s-clone-wars-fate-he-s-playing-a-long-game-q-a-57698611/

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I assume you mean the quote from Witwer:

"You don't just pick a guy because he can do cool flips and swing a sword good. You choose a guy who is brilliant and gifted in so many ways, physically and mentally, and can carry on the Sith tradition proudly. A thuggish hitman would be a hindrance when trying to take over the galaxy. You need someone who can work with you and to whom you can pass the baton when the time comes.

And that's a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It's so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he's found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down."

http://www.hollywood.com/tv/sam-witwer-on-darth-maul-s-clone-wars-fate-he-s-playing-a-long-game-q-a-57698611/

Excuse me while I don't give a shit about Witwer's opinion

"Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader. Each useful in their own way, each easy to replace when his purpose has reached it's end."

"Darth Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be it's last recipient."

"While I may choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor."

There are many other quotes like this one, I just lack the patience to bother since every single one of these overrides Witwer's opinion. They're direct quotes from Palpatine in the Book of Sith.

Yeah, except those quotes contradict all of the canonical material we have on Sidious. What it really boils down to is that canon and legends differ strongly on Sidious' goals.

And SoD falls into the canon bandwagon, so... :tehee:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, except those quotes contradict all of the canonical material we have on Sidious. What it really boils down to is that canon and legends differ strongly on Sidious' goals.

And SoD falls into the canon bandwagon, so... :tehee:
More or less.

We should differentiate Legends Palpatine from Canon Palpatine while considering these matters, IMO.

But if there is something in Canon content that implies that Palpatine had changed his mind about having an successor (i.e. not wanting one), then that evidence should be highlighted.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, except those quotes contradict all of the canonical material we have on Sidious. What it really boils down to is that canon and legends differ strongly on Sidious' goals.

And SoD falls into the canon bandwagon, so... :tehee:

Please quote me quickly all those canon quotes which say Sidious wanted to be killed and replaced

Also lmao at dismissing legends quotes while backing Beni's use of Sam Witwer

Um if he didn't want to be replaced why would he recruit Anakin lol

Originally posted by Selenial
Also lmao at dismissing legends quotes while backing Beni's use of Sam Witwer
Because TCW and Rebels isn't canon?

Canon/Legends have always kinda waffled and conflicted about the Emperor's pre-Endor ambition when it comes to the Sith. I think the closest thing to a consensus was that he intended to find a true successor until he devised a plan to reincarnate endlessly and consume the universe.

But even in Dark Empire he apprentices Luke, who would've presumably overthrown him at some point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Canon/Legends have always kinda waffled and conflicted about the Emperor's pre-Endor ambition when it comes to the Sith. I think the closest thing to a consensus was that he intended to find a true successor until he devised a plan to reincarnate endlessly and consume the universe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But even in Dark Empire he apprentices Luke, who would've presumably overthrown him at some point.

Maybe, but that wasn't the intent. The Dark Empire Sourcebook states he planned to use Luke as the beginning of an "eternal dynasty, with the descendents of Skywalker as its nobility, and Palpatine himself as its omnipotent ruler."

Then he planned to "journey across the universe spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies."

And in the nu!canon, Palpatine's goal is to use the Force to literally rewrite reality in his image per Tarkin.

Who wants angst in their blood forever tho?

Unless if he had a way to augment his potential beyond Luke's, this strikes me as Dooku-esque delusional.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Unless if he had a way to augment his potential beyond Luke's, this strikes me as Dooku-esque delusional.

Either that or he'd just kill Luke off before that happened and rotate in a new family member.

Though there's no denying the Emperor's megalomania.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Canon/Legends have always kinda waffled and conflicted about the Emperor's pre-Endor ambition when it comes to the Sith. I think the closest thing to a consensus was that he intended to find a true successor until he devised a plan to reincarnate endlessly and consume the universe.

How is that the closest to a consensus though? Legends as him not wanting a successor from the off, and canon has no real definitive statements either way. There is honestly no reason for Palpatine to have Ventress killed, for example, if he didn't fear being overthrown.

Originally posted by Selenial
How is that the closest to a consensus though? Legends as him not wanting a successor from the off, and canon has no real definitive statements either way. There is honestly no reason for Palpatine to have Ventress killed, for example, if he didn't fear being overthrown.

Yeah but then why expend all that energy to try to get a more powerful apprentice, including one who could become greater than he (Anakin, Luke) if he wasn't interested in a successor. He tells Marek in TFU that he could have been his equal, his successor.

There's never been a flat out consensus.

Mmm, Sidious didn't want Dooku to attempt to overthrow him because that was not part of his designs, but that doesn't preclude him wanting a successor full stop.

However I more intepreted that as Sidious calling Dooku out in violating the Rule of Two, perceiving Ventress to be a legitimate Sith apprentice.

The apparent contradictions are probably just the product of Palpatine's own cognitive dissonance; he probably genuinely believes in the Sith social darwinist philosophy and thinks that the apprentice should ultimately surpass the master, but this runs into his own narcissism and selfishness, so he sort of vacillates between the two. (Ironically enough, Bane's entire philosophy is basically altruistic sacrifice for the greater cause of the Sith)

Selenial, no offense but I don't understand why you still haven't addressed/considered the fact that Sidious recruited Anakin and bragged about how he was gonna surpass him...

I pretty much agree with that, going back to what Witwer says, he highlights that Palpatine didn't just pick any one, he picked someone he genuinely believed to be a worthy successor, and only in the case of Dooku (a placeholder for Anakin) has he done anything less. Whether or not he really ever planned to give up the mantle aside, I don't believe he'd ever intentionally select someone incompetent, but rather only the best.