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Prime versions without amps. Morals on & Force only, but lightsabers can be used to deflect Lightning.

1 - Karness Muur and Mother Talzin vs Exar Kun & Marka Ragnos, on Dathomir.

2 - Kyp Durron & Darth Vader & Starkiller vs Dread Masters, on Oricon.

3 - Leia Organa Solo & Nomi Sunider vs Darth Thanaton & Volfe Karkko, on Dantooine.

4 - Darth Traya & RotJ Darth Sidious vs Valkorion & Vaylin, in the Zakuul Throne Room.

5 - Freedon Nadd & Naga Sadow vs Darth Zannah & Darth Nox, on Odessen.

Senya isn't a mage. Vaylin would be a better fit.

I wanted Senya because she was older, but I've changed it to Vaylin. Thoughts now?

I don't know how Ragnos stacks up to Muur. And I'm not familiar enough with Volfe. If Traya can just drain Vaylin her and Sidious might be able to match Valkorion. I might have Nox beating Sadow and Zannah beating Nadd I guess.

The Dread Masters are too confusing to call.

Kreia and Sidious "might" be able to match Valkorion? That's... pretty generous for Valky there. With morals on, Kreia isn't instantly going for the Drain, though.

You couldn't guess how Ragnos stacks up to Muur?

For the Dread Masters, I deliberately put them up against telekinetic powerhouses who were mentally vulnerable.

Zannah beating Nadd? Interesting. Not sure if Nox beats Sadow either.

I have Valkorion as being significantly more powerful than Sidious these days.

Ragnos is said to be the most powerful of the most powerful but Muur was supposedly > Vader. Ragnos also lacks feats and evidence while Muur has some sick showings. But again, Ragnos was supposed to be like the ultimate ancient Sith. Ragnos might take it if he has his scepter.

Some say Vader can solo them. They should be powerful enough and numerous enough to take them down imo because the Masters are crazy bonkers in terms of feats and abilities. But y'know, maybe not.

Zannah has Nadd's knowledge and then some and is IMO more powerful than him. Sadow lacks feats, Nox is cool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have Valkorion as being significantly more powerful than Sidious these days.

On the basis of showings? I don't think so.



Ragnos is supposed to be the most powerful up to his time, but I thought you guys don't take these quotes when Muur was invented afterwards (I think - he was certainly fleshed out afterwards).



You post your own opinion, not what some would say. It's up to them to show up and post their opinions. How easily do the Dread Masters win, then?



Perhaps, but Nadd is probably more powerful and when it comes to applications of power, he has a more diversified and arguably more potent arsenal.

Sadow's more knowledgeable than Nox, tbh, and Barel Ovair was being driven insane just by being near Sadow's tomb for a while. Same guy who was Concealing his dark side signature in front of the entire Order ala Sidious, just with a weaker Jedi Order.

I'm just posting my own opinion. Valkorion's feats trump Sidious' by a mile imo. His lightning is vastly superior, he's so powerful someone like Revan couldn't budge a mere vassal of his power with TK, he shattered the Dark Temple while ridiculously weakened, he has > Dread Master TP and is arguably the greatest practitioner of the art, he casually stomped a Strike Team of the most powerful Jedi alive, he wiped Ziost out and grew massively from it. He also renders the Dread Masters insignificant in comparison, before he annihilated Ziost. Revan, Malgus and Arcann are bugs to him. Also it's mostly that Traya is woefully irrelevant.

I'm not willing to take a firm stand either way.

Not easily. I just don't think those 3 can handle the utter bullshit the Masters can collectively throw at them at any one time.

Like I said, I disagree that Nadd is more powerful. And how is he more diversified when Zannah has all his techniques and more?

And then Sadow lost to a minion of Vitiates who I doubt is > Nox. Sadow might be more knowledgeable but so was Thanaton. Ghost hax OP nerf plz.

Reading Ant try to explain the Dread Masters to the troglodytes on Comicvine honestly makes me feel pretty bad for him.

Derp Vader is immune to fear durr.

1. I know. I don't remember the part where Revan couldn't budge him. As for the Dark Temple, granted, and as for being better than the Dread Masters, granted, but those aren't really feats beyond Sidious' scope. I mean, he's dominated twenty billion minds on Byss with TP, and he could tear apart his office and the surrounding building (large enough to house Star Destroyers) "with a thought", and that was well before RotJ (years before ANH, if I recall). His Lightning has ripped apart miniature armies and turned Sith Wyrms to ash (this was well before RotS as well, and this is RotJ Palpatine). I don't see Vitiate's Lightning being vastly superior.

2. Alright.

3. Okay.

4. I said he's more diversified in what he's shown. And being vastly more powerful than Sadow is something I can't credit Zannah with.

5. He lost in a duel, and you can argue that he was stuck with some pretty poor circumstances. We're talking about raw power and in their primes, here. Also, according to The Dark Side Sourcebook, Sadow can channel Ghosts for his benefit.

1. Revan could barely budge an Imperial Guard drawing on Vitiates power. Vitiates own defenses, in his prime, would be vastly superior to that of a mere vassal drawing on his power. Personally I'm not sure if Sidious was in that position, being massive weakened, dying and depleted, that he'd be able to destroy the temple. Nor that the "combined power" of the Dread Masters are "insignificant" compared to him. That statement of his office is overhyped, I've seen it and the actual wording isn't that impressive. Destroying small armies isn't comparable to wiping out a small fleet of ships with the mere excess power of his lightning, which is stated to be weaker than his true power.

4. What has Nadd shown that you think would let him beat Zannah?

5. There won't be any ghosts for him to channel except Nox's and her control is absolute by the end of Act 3. Nox + 5 ghosts > Sadow in raw power.

That Imperial guard point is actually quite a good one.

Revan has some of the best TK in the mythos as well, so imo basically only Luke has a change of overpowering Vitiate in TK.

Or the Godlander.

1. It's not the wording I'm concerned about, it's the fact that the building can house Star Destroyers, which gives you an estimation of its size. Destroying it with a thought is unquestionably impressive. As for Lightning, I thought it was a few ships - that's not a "small fleet". I'd say casually ashifying a Sith wyrm decades before RotJ constitutes a rivalling feat.

Fair enough on the Imperial Guards. Regarding the Dread Masters, I'd say dominating the population of Byss in what appeared to be an easy feat puts him well above them in telepathy, and in other areas, he's vastly superior. So yeah, they are insignificant to him.

2. Well, as a weakened spirit who was dividing his power between Ommin and Amanoa, Nadd managed to collapse a tomb and restore everything in Kun's body, so I expect him to be highly proficient in both telekinesis and healing. He should be able to do pretty much everything that Ommin/Amanoa could do but on a vastly greater scale.

As far as how he'd win, I think being more powerful than Zannah and having things like Drain at his disposal count? And then there's always Wormhole

3. I know. I don't know why I mentioned Sadow channeling stuff, to be honest. That said, perhaps Nadd could fight Nox and Sadow Zannah?

Yet Revan knocked the actual Emperor, amped by a nexus, on his ass mmm.

And is Valkorion's Force lightning really vastly superior to a Force storm?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet Revan knocked the actual Emperor, amped by a nexus, on his ass mmm.

And is Valkorion's Force lightning really vastly superior to a Force storm?

With most of Vitiates power directed elsewhere and not expecting the attack.

Palpatine's Force Storms are wormholes, not lightning. So not really comparable.

He did summon a weather storm through a holoprojector prior to RotS. And in the LotJ series, a weather storm comes by as soon as Sidious gets angry. And it was the type of anger that he was still capable of holding in.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With most of Vitiates power directed elsewhere and not expecting the attack.True, but if Revan can't even effectively push a mere vassal, it seems unreasonable he'd be able to affect Vitiate himself at all, certainly not floor him, even under extenuating circumstances. Palpatine's Force storms are masses of destructive dark side energy, generated through hate, and a mere extrapolation of the Force maelstrom, itself a form of Force lightning.

So I'd say they are comparable, the basic principles of channeling your anger and hate into energy are the same.

Altogether is a level of destructive power that Valkorion has not anywhere vastly surpassed.

Hmm, it is worth noting that while he hadn't perfected his control over them by this time, Sidious could still conjure Force Storms. If he's not capable of winning without them, it stands to reason that he'd fall back on them as a last resort.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. It's not the wording I'm concerned about, it's the fact that the building can house Star Destroyers, which gives you an estimation of its size. Destroying it with a thought is unquestionably impressive. As for Lightning, I thought it was a few ships - that's not a "small fleet". I'd say casually ashifying a Sith wyrm decades before RotJ constitutes a rivalling feat.

Fair enough on the Imperial Guards. Regarding the Dread Masters, I'd say dominating the population of Byss in what appeared to be an easy feat puts him well above them in telepathy, and in other areas, he's vastly superior. So yeah, they are insignificant to him.

2. Well, as a weakened spirit who was dividing his power between Ommin and Amanoa, Nadd managed to collapse a tomb and restore everything in Kun's body, so I expect him to be highly proficient in both telekinesis and healing. He should be able to do pretty much everything that Ommin/Amanoa could do but on a vastly greater scale.

As far as how he'd win, I think being more powerful than Zannah and having things like Drain at his disposal count? And then there's always Wormhole

3. I know. I don't know why I mentioned Sadow channeling stuff, to be honest. That said, perhaps Nadd could fight Nox and Sadow Zannah?

1. No, I mean that he can't actually destroy the building and the quote doesn't suggest that. I've already proven this and people have acknowledged it. A few ships is a small fleet. Lol, ashing a wyrm isn't comparable to ****ing up dozens of starships with the mere excess lightning spilling off of your main attack. Nyriss ashing herself through her defenses >>> ashing a wyrm and Vitiate was stated to be infinitely greater than that attack.

Dominating Byss over an unknown period of time using unknown methods doesn't mean shit. The Dread Masters dominated legions of Jedi and Sith into incurable insanity to be their planetary armies. And just being better than someone doesn't make them insignificant.

2. TK and healing won't help him beat Zannah. And like I said, Zannah has Nadd's holocron and more so why should he be pulling off things that she can't?

Well he isn't more powerful so that won't help him. And drain won't help him either, it's hardly some trump card against someone like Zannah. Nadd's never used wormhole in combat nor has anyone really.

So how is Nadd going to beat Zannah's mental attack? His will isn't near as strong as Bane's.

3. Maybe. And once Zannah crushes Sadow, she can help Nox pwn Nadd.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
True, but if Revan can't even effectively push a mere vassal, it seems unreasonable he'd be able to affect Vitiate himself at all, certainly not floor him, even under extenuating circumstances.

Not unreasonable if Vitiate isn't defending himself. And Revan did use his Gary Stu Force in Balance attack to do it, not TK.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpatine's Force storms are masses of destructive dark side energy, generated through hate, and a mere extrapolation of the Force maelstrom, itself a form of Force lightning.

So I'd say they are comparable, the basic principles of channeling your anger and hate into energy are the same.

Altogether is a level of destructive power that Valkorion has not anywhere vastly surpassed.

It's not lightning though, so it's not lightning.

Force Maelstrom is a combination attack that merely has lightning as an element of it, the attack itself isn't a form of lightning. An extrapolation of a technique that uses lightning as an element of it, is not itself innately lightning. Duh.

His destruction of Ziost > Sidious' wormhole in scale. While Sidious could hypothetically cause that level of damage given enough time to vacuum his storm over a planet bit by bit, that's not really comparable. And Valkorion grew from that destruction.

Force Storm is irrelevant anyway, as it's not a combat technique.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hmm, it is worth noting that while he hadn't perfected his control over them by this time, Sidious could still conjure Force Storms. If he's not capable of winning without them, it stands to reason that he'd fall back on them as a last resort.

Sidious has never shown the ability to use his Force Storm in combat, without getting killed by it himself.

So? Force lightning is still an aspect of it, and the basic principles are the same, the fact that it also incorporates TK just proves Palpatine is better in that regard as well.

Scale? Maybe. We don't know how large a storm Palpatine could create. But destructive power? Hardly.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Comics%20Companion%20Force%20Storm_zpsopa0whwd.png

Actually, Sheev's Force storms at their upper end can threaten all of space. He's capable of exponentially greater destruction than from what can be attributed to Valkorion.

We're discussing RotJ Palpatine tho. But correct nonetheless.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We're discussing RotJ Palpatine tho. But correct nonetheless.

The Emperor was working on mastering the Force storm as early as ca. ROTS, per Book of Sith. And in Star Wars Gamer #5 he employs it by using a wormhole to fold space and transmigrate his essence through the void when he died in ROTJ.

Indeed, but it stands to reason its potency scaled with his own growth in power.

Though I suppose an order of magnitude down from threatening "all of space" still > a planetary radius. mmm

Threatening all of space >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything Valkorion has ever done.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow, Neph, but this caught my attention:



Then it'll just be a stalemate, won't it?

Besides, even by this time, Sidious can summon Wormholes through just a wilful inclination.

Sidious only killed himself thanks to his opponents' Force Harmony (ie. PIS), but that doesn't really matter here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll respond to the rest tomorrow, Neph, but this caught my attention:



Then it'll just be a stalemate, won't it?

Besides, even by this time, Sidious can summon Wormholes through just a wilful inclination.

Sidious only killed himself thanks to his opponents' Force Harmony (ie. PIS), but that doesn't really matter here.

If Sidious attempts to conjure a Force Storm I highly doubt Valkorion would just let him. He'd slap the shit out of him while he's focused on that and Sidious would annihilate himself again. Valkorion teleports somewhere else or something. GG.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? Force lightning is still an aspect of it, and the basic principles are the same, the fact that it also incorporates TK just proves Palpatine is better in that regard as well.

Scale? Maybe. We don't know how large a storm Palpatine could create. But destructive power? Hardly.

No it isn't. The Wormhole doesn't use lightning, so it isn't lightning. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. Maelstrom uses lightning as a component of a combination attack. That doesn't translate into Force Storm at all. It's completely irrelevant. Try using Sidious' actual lightning feats in the future.

It's a drain, which doesn't directly destroy things, so obviously we can't directly compare destruction. However in terms of the potency of the attack, it's easily above Sidious' attack.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Comics%20Companion%20Force%20Storm_zpsopa0whwd.png

Actually, Sheev's Force storms at their upper end can threaten all of space. He's capable of exponentially greater destruction than from what can be attributed to Valkorion.

I'm acknowledging this post only to state that I am not acknowledging the content in the slightest.

1. This fight is fugging LIT. While we don't really know much about Ragnos, I'd wager he could fight on par with or beyond the likes of Muur, given his status as the ultimate paragon of the ancient sith. That said, I think Talzin on Dathomir would probably defeat Kun in an insanely close fight, or stalemate. Not sure.

2. force only? Ehh, team 1 definitely.

3. I wanna say that Nomi Sunrider brings team 1 to victory, but not sure.

4. In all honesty, Traya's sort of a weak link. Especially if you take the Chapter 12 vision fight with Vaylin seriously where she shows off some new powers.

5. Nadd and Sadow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Sidious attempts to conjure a Force Storm I highly doubt Valkorion would just let him. He'd slap the shit out of him while he's focused on that and Sidious would annihilate himself again. Valkorion teleports somewhere else or something. GG.

"Focus"? He can summon them with a mere inclination. All he needs to do is summon a small one in Valky's area and that's a win.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Focus"? He can summon them with a mere inclination. All he needs to do is summon a small one in Valky's area and that's a win.

He didn't do that in DE though. He needed to focus on doing it, giving the Skywalkers the time to attack him. Valkorion can easily recreate that. He's also never done what you say. He can't just make "a small one" and kill anyone he wants. Valkorion could resist a small wormhole regardless.

He made a small Wormhole in RotJ when he died... that was small enough to fit that shaft he fell into.

Valkorion can "resist" a Wormhole? How so?

Lolwut? Quote? Pretty sure that was him dying bro.

Um, Force defenses.

1. The Dark Side Burst was him dying, but him transmigrating his essence lightyears was with Wormhole.

"The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body."
Source: Gamer #5

2. Tell me the last time "Force defenses" allowed you to defend against a Wormhole.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. It's not the wording I'm concerned about, it's the fact that the building can house Star Destroyers, which gives you an estimation of its size. Destroying it with a thought is unquestionably impressive.
You take thoughts at face value now?

I recall a character thinking that he would rip the planet itself apart with the power he had been gathering.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for Lightning, I thought it was a few ships - that's not a "small fleet". I'd say casually ashifying a Sith wyrm decades before RotJ constitutes a rivalling feat.
Valkorion downed scores of starships.

"Incredible... life signs aboard all ships in the Spar's proximity have been neutralized." (Scorpio)

Valkorion's actions stopping shipping activity in the entire sector.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Fair enough on the Imperial Guards. Regarding the Dread Masters, I'd say dominating the population of Byss in what appeared to be an easy feat puts him well above them in telepathy, and in other areas, he's vastly superior. So yeah, they are insignificant to him.
Byss's populace was loyal to Palpatine. He wouldn't have to exert much to telepathically influence an already loyal populace.

Dread Masters affected enemies (on a large-scale) with their telepathic powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm acknowledging this post only to state that I am not acknowledging the content in the slightest.

Pretty much everyone here has known for years that you're dishonest, my child. So this isn't a surprise. Though I am intrigued that you've decided to openly embrace your reputation.

Just remember this when you start crying about me lecturing you. excellent

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Dark Side Burst was him dying, but him transmigrating his essence lightyears was with Wormhole.

"The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body."
Source: Gamer #5

2. Tell me the last time "Force defenses" allowed you to defend against a Wormhole.

That doesn't seem like wormhole, just fold space/teleporting. Also iirc that source is contradicted in other places that it took Sidious longer to get to Droga.

If TK can effect a black hole, surely a barrier can resist the destructive forces of a wormhole.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty much everyone here has known for years that you're dishonest, my child. So this isn't a surprise. Though I am intrigued that you've decided to openly embrace your reputation.

Just remember this when you start crying about me lecturing you. excellent

Well it shouldn't be a surprise since I've stated numerous times that I don't acknowledge that thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Comics%20Companion%20Force%20Storm_zpsopa0whwd.png

Actually, Sheev's Force storms at their upper end can threaten all of space. He's capable of exponentially greater destruction than from what can be attributed to Valkorion.
You take that nonsense at face value now?

Force Storm could not threaten all of space, period. It is a wormhole-like manifestation, nothing else. And its inconsequential to the events occurring in the universe at large.

In the universe, lot of stuff is happening that we cannot even properly comprehend (they are of such scope and scale). And you think that a single Force power would threaten all of it? The space is incredibly vast. We don't even have an idea of its boundaries.

B/W Valkorion is stated to have "immeasurable power."

@Neph -

1. Except Palpatine doesn't know Fold Space, or hasn't shown it. It makes more sense that he folded space through a refined usage of Wormhole.

And no, it's not contradicted. Newer sources state that it took time for him to get to Byss, not Kaal (where Droga was situated).

2. Telekinesis isn't the same as or similar to Barrier in the slightest.

And even provided that Valk can defend himself with Barrier, he can't defend the space around him, which means Palpatine will still win via BFR.

@LeGenD: Spirit/weakened!Vitiate was, actually.

@Legend

Sidious was stated to have learned all dark side techniques and create new ones at his leisure - that means he knows everything Valkorion does and then some.

Originally posted by Trocity
@Legend

Sidious was stated to have learned all dark side techniques and create new ones at his leisure - that means he knows everything Valkorion does and then some.
Remind me which new powers Palpatine created and demonstrated?

And it is not possible for Palpatine to have learned every Dark Side technique ever pioneered since many secrets would not end-up recorded and/or records of many would end up destroyed at the hands of enemies of the Sith with passage of time.

Moreover, I don't recall Valkorion (the guy who has explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side) creating holocrons.

B/W here is a realistic assessment of the destructive potential of the second Force Storm that Palpatine conjured:

In a last-minute reversal, a dark side Force storm intended to obliterate the New Republic headquarters consumed the Emperor instead - leaving the Dark Empire leaderless.

Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Atlas

Btw do you have a video or more concrete evidence of Valkorion's lightning actually downing all of those ships?

Because the quote you provided only mentions all life signs aboard the ships being dead, meaning he killed the crews, and so of course the ships would then likely crash, not necessarily his lightning itself bringing the ships down..

It honestly doesn't matter which quote we take - Wormholes are still going to beat Vitiate.

Wormholes haven't beaten a single person except Sidious himself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Neph -

1. Except Palpatine doesn't know Fold Space, or hasn't shown it. It makes more sense that he folded space through a refined usage of Wormhole.

And no, it's not contradicted. Newer sources state that it took time for him to get to Byss, not Kaal (where Droga was situated).

2. Telekinesis isn't the same as or similar to Barrier in the slightest.

And even provided that Valk can defend himself with Barrier, he can't defend the space around him, which means Palpatine will still win via BFR.

1. If you say so. The fact still remains that he never used it in combat. His supposed use of it there could have been a desperation move and it could have been of irrelevant potency, just enough to transport his spirit. In terms of his actual showings, when he tried to use it against Luke he got curbed because of it.

2. Um, it's an invisible projection of force, its pretty similar. I use TK and defenses pretty interchangeably, honestly.

Originally posted by Trocity
Btw do you have a video or more concrete evidence of Valkorion's lightning actually downing all of those ships?

Because the quote you provided only mentions all life signs aboard the ships being dead, meaning he killed the crews, and so of course the ships would then likely crash, not necessarily his lightning itself bringing the ships down..
You can check details here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

Originally posted by SunRazer
It honestly doesn't matter which quote we take - Wormholes are still going to beat Vitiate.
Wormholes do not affect spirits and disembodied manifestations. Therefore, Palpatine cannot stop Valkorion even with his greatest powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wormholes haven't beaten a single person except Sidious himself.

No, they haven't beaten a single person, just millions of them in fleets or planet surfaces.



Not only is it me that's saying so, but Sidious himself (more than once) describes the ability to "fold space" and "shatter the fabric of space" with Wormholes, and this is well before RotJ.



He has, and if it requires only a "wilful inclination" to summon a Force Storm, suggesting that he can't call upon one if he needs to is normally something I'd post a laughing GIF for, but I can't be bothered to do that now.

"Just enough to transport his spirit"? By RotJ, it's still enough to tear off the surfaces of worlds or annihilate fleets. And just being able to affect one person/the space around them is enough for this match.

He never got curbed because of it. He got curbed when the Force Harmony turned it against him. You keep citing this without any reference to context. He got curbed the Force Harmony, not the effort of summoning/controlling the Wormhole. That'd be the equivalent of me saying that the Outlander managed to impale Valkorion on their saber, so Sidious could easily blitz ol' Valky.



Sorry, I meant to say Wormhole and TK aren't the same.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wormholes do not affect spirits and disembodied manifestations. Therefore, Palpatine cannot stop Valkorion even with his greatest powers.

Did you not see me post the quote:

"The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body."
Source: Gamer #5

So yes, if Valkorion dies, Palpatine can transmigrate his essence somewhere else to win via BFR. Not to mention that even before RotS, Palpatine learned to influence spirits and essences. And if we want to play this game, Valkorion can't defeat Palpatine's essence either, so it's a stalemate at best.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, they haven't beaten a single person, just millions of them in fleets or planet surfaces.

Which is irrelevant in terms of using it safely in personal, small-scale combat without dying himself. Which he cannot do.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not only is it me that's saying so, but Sidious himself (more than once) describes the ability to "fold space" and "shatter the fabric of space" with Wormholes, and this is well before RotJ.

What source is that btw? Gamer? Is that a magazine? Sounds non-canon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He has, and if it requires only a "wilful inclination" to summon a Force Storm, suggesting that he can't call upon one if he needs to is normally something I'd post a laughing GIF for, but I can't be bothered to do that now.

"Just enough to transport his spirit"? By RotJ, it's still enough to tear off the surfaces of worlds or annihilate fleets.

He never got curbed because of it. He got curbed when the Force Harmony turned it against him. You keep citing this without any reference to context. He got curbed the Force Harmony, not the effort of summoning/controlling the Wormhole. That'd be the equivalent of me saying that the Outlander managed to impale Valkorion on their saber, so Sidious could easily blitz ol' Valky.

No, he hasn't.

No you dumbass, I mean that the small one he used to transport his spirit could be incredibly weak. He obviously didn't damage the Death Star or conjure one potent enough to destroy the nearby Luke and Vader, so you cannot prove such a small wormhole would actually be effective.

Irrelevant posturing. He tried to use an attack and the Skywalkers used the time he took to conjure his Force Storm to whoop him. Valkorion could do the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, I meant to say Wormhole and TK aren't the same.

Barriers can defend against more than just TK. If it's a physical attack it can block it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is irrelevant in terms of using it safely in personal, small-scale combat without dying himself. Which he cannot do.

He can, because he's made personal-sized Wormholes before.



Sounds like you're getting desperate here and trying to discredit a perfectly canonical source.



Again, suggesting he can't when all it take is a mere "wilful inclination" is ridiculous, and you know it's ridiculous.



No, you dumbass, he made it small enough to fit within the shaft and not affect his surroundings. That, and he did this as a weakened, disembodied spirit. Not indicative of what he could do in the flesh.

Also, he claims that his Force Storms are "vastly destructive", can "shatter the fabric of space", "swallow armies", "fold space", etc. I assume this stuff would be harder for him to control, but he doesn't need to swallow armies here.



Palpatine isn't trying to devour an entire fleet or moon here. He only needs to summon a small one on Valkorion. That won't take much time - considering the one in RotJ was instantaneous.



Wormholes affect the physical, but they're not physical themselves. They're holes in space, in other words, holes in the physical. Barriers being able to defend against holes in the space-time continuum (ie. holes in reality itself) is incredibly suspect and extremely unlikely.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Did you not see me post the quote:

"The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body."
Source: Gamer #5
I am not sure how this is relevant to what I said.

B/W I know that Palpatine journeyed to Byss after his corporeal demise during the Battle of Endor and it took him a year to reach Byss and activate his first clone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So yes, if Valkorion dies, Palpatine can transmigrate his essence somewhere else to win via BFR. Not to mention that even before RotS, Palpatine learned to influence spirits and essences. And if we want to play this game, Valkorion can't defeat Palpatine's essence either, so it's a stalemate at best.
My point is that Force Storm only threatens Valkorion's Voice, not his disembodied self.

As for Palpatine doing essence transfer; unless he have a virtually endless supply of clones, he is not getting anywhere. And Valkorion can destroy his clones.

Moreover, Valkorion is extremely powerful in disembodied form; much more-so then Palpatine. So I suggest that you do not play this game.

To refresh your memory: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

Therefore, it is a safe bet that Valkorion threatens Palpatine's essence even more-so.

So if there a war between Palpatine and Valkorion, this is a war that Palpatine cannot win.

1. What? Did you even read my quote? Palpatine can affect disembodied essences with Wormhole, as he has done so before. Can, can, can, can.

2. Prove it, and even if he was, he still can't kill off Palpatine permanently, so at worst it's a stalemate regardless of who's more powerful.

@Legend - Just saw the edit. It's going to be 2AM in 2 minutes and I desperately need to hit the sack now, but that's relevant because it shows Palpatine can affect disembodied essences. You seem like you're playing dumb on purpose to avoid conceding to the truth.

And that was traveling to Kaal, not Byss.

Nova, good friggin' catch about being able to effect incorporeal energy with Force storms. 👍👍👍

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. What? Did you even read my quote? Palpatine can affect disembodied essences with Wormhole, as he has done so before. Can, can, can, can.
No, you are terribly wrong.

Force Storm does not affects spirits and disembodied manifestations, period. Otherwise, Palpatine would have not have survived his own Force Storm.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Prove it, and even if he was, he still can't kill off Palpatine permanently, so at worst it's a stalemate regardless of who's more powerful.
Palpatine is largely helpless in disembodied form while Valkorion can actually affect external environment and surroundings in profound ways.

Valkorion have history of siphoning energy of Force ghosts held captive inside the Dark Temple.

I'd say that Valkorion will send Palpatine's essence back to void.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nova, good friggin' catch about being able to effect incorporeal energy with Force storms. 👍👍👍


So how Palpatine survived his own Force Storm that was no longer in his control and consumed his corporeal form and his flagship?

Spirits can travel through space, so it's only natural that they could travel through a wormhole. That doesn't mean one could harm or effect them. Sidious was physically killed by his own Force Storm, but his spirit was unaffected.

Interesting developments.

1. Good fight. I'd put him above Exar though, but Talzin > both so as long as he's against Kun, Talzin will handle the Marka before he either wins or loses, unless he has his scepter. She'd probably open with her green lightning magic, taking on Ragnos first, while Muur takes on Kun and probably mocks him by saying "your powers are moot" and then getting hit with lightning or TK, defending against that, and then going all out on Kun. That fight would go either way from there, but slight majority for Muur IMO, Talzin wins her fight, but the duration of it varies on Ragnos having his scepter or not.

2. I'm siding DM's for majority. While I think the three together would pose a threat to them, there's no way they can handle all six, let alone defend against their TP with almost no history of being able to resist it in the past (sans Kyp, not particularly familiar with him), let alone TP this strong. DM's will surely start with a mental assault, and if they resist it well enough, they'll just finish them off with various sorceries.

3. Tbh Thanaton > all in his fight, and Volfe is second, however if Nomi does her Force Light Wall Sever thing to either, it's gg straight up. Thanaton would probably taunt them a little, saying he's old and wise and beyond their comprehension, followed by striking trying to have Volfe take them on solo, which he'd want to do anyway, and probably not getting downed but pushed back and injured, followed by Thanato wrecking the Jedi with his sorcery like he did Kallig II. Either way, Thanaton and Volfe together are too much for the Jedi, no matter how you play it.

4. Team 2, and it's not close. Valkorion is mvp here, Vaylin is on par(ish, minus drain) with Traya, and with Valkorion here, I can definitely see him doing something like releasing Vaylin's true powers if and only if she uses them to win this fight. If he did though, team 1 could take advantage of their momentary distraction, however I don't see either getting past any of Valky's defenses (seeing as he stated to have allowed himself to be killed by Outlander and Arcann), and with them both at full power, they wreck. Vaylin would definitely abuse her TK, however mainly for intimidation and dicking with Traya before either succumbing to Traya's drain or killing her via TK. During which time Sidious and Valkorion would have a fight to end all fights, ending with Valkorion on top. If Traya downed Vaylin, she's too minuscule to impact the fight and would go down fast and hard, but if Vaylin wins then she could probably land a solid blast of TK on Sheev, either distracting him shortly and giving Valky a chance to kill him or downright knock him off his feet (depending on how drained from his fight or distracted he is), or in the event that Valkorion wins before Valin vs Traya is done then it's game over.

5. This one is hard for me. I hold all these people in a similar tier, Zannah a bit lower than all others but not enough for her not to be a major player in this fight. Id guess she'd go after Nadd first, opening with some TK but avoiding using techniques she learned from his texts. Nadd would use something she herself learns from him and resist it, and it would probably go on like this for a while, with her knowing many of his techniques and hers not being strong enough to affect him much. Eventually the tendrils will be her only option, and I'm not sure how Nadd would handle them. Nox vs Sadow is hard to call for me primarily from both having such extensively powerful sorceries that I have no idea how it'd turn out. I'm leaning Sadow from him having more potent powers, but Nox having superior defenses and a much wider variety of powers and (IMHO) superior FL makes me not so solid on that decision.

Edit: Vaylin would more likely than not be able to resist Traya's drain, though she's be weakened, and probably lash out and kill her with uber TK or a flash of FL, then help her dad kill Sidious. Also probably would do some solid damage to him, rather than my previous statement of just making him stumble.

Did you just say Vaylin was only on par with Traya? Kek.

Oh shit, I didn't even think of Valkorion releasing Vaylins true powers! Thats brilliant!

Originally posted by SunRazer
1 - Karness Muur and Mother Talzin vs Exar Kun & Marka Ragnos, on Dathomir.


Team 1 10/10. Talzin on Dathomir is Sidious-tier.



Team 1 10/10. RotJ Vader > Starkiller, and black-hole moving, freighter ramming Durron crushes the featless, overhyped Dread Masters.



Not sure. I'm not very familiar with Karkko, but he seems more powerful than Leia tbh. Nomi is probably more powerful than Thanaton and is probably stronger than Karkko as well, so I'd lean team 1.



Team 1 10/10. Sidious could solo in all-out.



Team 1 10/10. Zannah is trash and Nox can't beat them both.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, you are terribly wrong.

Force Storm does not affects spirits and disembodied manifestations, period. Otherwise, Palpatine would have not have survived his own Force Storm

What? I never said Wormholes destroyed spirits, I said they can transmigrate them light-years around the galaxy. If Valkorion turns into a spirit, Sidious can BFR him, which normally counts as a win.



What has Valkorion done outside of telepathic and possession-based attacks? Because that is something Sidious can do.



As a disembodied spirit? When?



Which, by sheer force of will, Palpatine can escape. Proof that Valkorion can send Palpatine's essence into the void?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Team 1 10/10. Sidious could solo in all-out.


Care to elaborate? And no, don't give me speed nonsense.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Team 1 10/10. Zannah is trash and Nox can't beat them both.
Defeating Darth Bane is trash accomplishment?

Keking hard at Muur > Kun.

Same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What? I never said Wormholes destroyed spirits, I said they can transmigrate them light-years around the galaxy. If Valkorion turns into a spirit, Sidious can BFR him, which normally counts as a win.
BFR?

Originally posted by SunRazer
What has Valkorion done outside of telepathic and possession-based attacks? Because that is something Sidious can do.
Didn't I address this part?

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

Valkorion could do a lot in disembodied form. He clearly stated that he doesn't needs corporeal vessels to affect the external environment.

I suppose that you are not playing Knights of the Fallen Empire?

Originally posted by SunRazer
As a disembodied spirit? When?
Valkorion performed this feat while having a Voice and Children.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which, by sheer force of will, Palpatine can escape. Proof that Valkorion can send Palpatine's essence into the void?
Palpatine's essence doesn't have much offensive and defensive capability and it struggled against the pull of the void just like a normal Force ghost.

Now, if Palpatine's essence comes into contact with a supremely powerful entity that also happens to be hostile, what do you think will happen? Palpatine needs a corporeal vessel to manifest his powers, otherwise he is doomed as in a conflict as a Jedi named Brand proved.

BFR essentially means to remove an opponent from battle.

Battlefield removal, LeGenD.

Hmm

It's like what Superman would do to Valkorion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
BFR?

Battlefield removal. Essentially, Palpatine can bring Valkorion to another place in the galaxy, which constitutes as a victory (where I come from, at least).




I've read that. You missed some serious context there, including your "it's worth noting that Valkorion could possess people with or without consent, such as his voices".... that, of course, he impregnated with part of his essence beforehand.

I did forget that Valkorion could use rudimentary telekinesis as a disembodied essence, but unfortunately that's not enough to do anything here.



No, I stopped playing TOR before KotFE. I only watch some of the videos on YT.



He doesn't have access to any Voice or Children here. And Voice/Children are people that he possesses, so he's not a disembodied spirit there either. "Disembodied" means that he doesn't have a physical form, so the Voice/Children obviously aren't included because Vitiate does have a physical form when he possesses them.




A struggle that he won.



Brand proved that Sidious was doomed when "every Jedi that had went before" and Brand himself made sure that Sidious would never escape Chaos again.

In this case, neither essence can destroy the other. The difference is, Sidious can still rend space to BFR Valkorion's essence, which is a win.

Do you think rending space will transport a non-corporeal entity? Really, now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Battlefield removal. Essentially, Palpatine can bring Valkorion to another place in the galaxy, which constitutes as a victory (where I come from, at least).
You are assuming best case scenario for Palpatine, I do not dismiss the possibility. But there is one problem; how Palpatine would aim for disembodied Valkorion?

You cannot attack what you cannot see. This is why Jedi and Sith were unable to do anything about Valkorion on Ziost.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've read that. You missed some serious context there, including your "it's worth noting that Valkorion could possess people with or without consent, such as his voices".... that, of course, he impregnated with part of his essence beforehand.


???

Originally posted by SunRazer
I did forget that Valkorion could use rudimentary telekinesis as a disembodied essence, but unfortunately that's not enough to do anything here.
Telekinesis is not my point. My point is that Valkorion retains many abilities in disembodied form, he is also capable of affecting other spirits (possibly even consume them or dispatch them to the void). There are already rumors that Valkorion did something to Darth Marr's Force ghost for example; possibly consumed him and then took his form to manipulate the Outlander.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I stopped playing TOR before KotFE. I only watch some of the videos on YT.
Therein lies the problem, my friend.

You understand the events in the game better when you play it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't have access to any Voice or Children here. And Voice/Children are people that he possesses, so he's not a disembodied spirit there either. "Disembodied" means that he doesn't have a physical form, so the Voice/Children obviously aren't included because Vitiate does have a physical form when he possesses them.
What do you think a Voice is? A possessed host.

What do you think Children are? Extensions of will.

Valkorion was essentially an "essence" during the events of SWTOR. Voices and Children were secondary stuff; they collectively expanded his reach across the galaxy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A struggle that he won.
He could not resist the pull of the void for indefinite period. This is why he was in search of corporeal vessels.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Brand proved that Sidious was doomed when "every Jedi that had went before" and Brand himself made sure that Sidious would never escape Chaos again.
Brand "assumed" that every Jedi spirit would assist him in taking down Palpatine's essence. We don't actually see Jedi spirits manifesting and helping Brand towards this end.

Several (neutral) sources including a few DE sources credit only Jedi Brand for vanquishing Palpatine's essence.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In this case, neither essence can destroy the other. The difference is, Sidious can still rend space to BFR Valkorion's essence, which is a win.
I find your assessment problematic.

Valkorion can affect other Force ghosts; examples provided above. Should he attempt to dispatch a lingering essence back to void, I don't see why he cannot do that with his powers or certain techniques.

CIP: Exar Kun destroyed Freedon Nadd's Force ghost with Force blasts. Ergo, weaken them enough and they won't be able to resist the pull of void.

Originally posted by SunRazer
he impregnated

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Do you think rending space will transport a non-corporeal entity? Really, now.

There'd be a discussion if it didn't already happen, as my quote proves. Moreover, essences still travel through space - certainly Vitiate's does.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There'd be a discussion if it didn't already happen, as my quote proves. Moreover, essences still travel through space - certainly Vitiate's does.
Vitiate can traverse space in disembodied form but he may prefer to Teleport himself to a distant location. For example, Vitiate teleported himself to Ziost from Yavin 4.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are assuming best case scenario for Palpatine, I do not dismiss the possibility. But there is one problem; how Palpatine would aim for disembodied Valkorion?

You can sense the essence, you know.



As far as I know, Vitate's essence could be perceived, it's just that nobody in the TOR era had the powers to affect an essence. That's not the case here.



Surely you are aware of how Vitiate's Voices work? He infuses part of his essence into them, which he can call upon at any time or distance in the future.



Are the rumors substantiated at all?




Of course I will, but I just don't fancy spending time or money on TOR anymore. Besides, if I'm missing anything, I trust you'll correct me, and then I'll investigate the issue again.




Except they're physical forms - this isn't hard to understand.

What I find rather interesting is that you're willing to treat Voices and Children not as possessed bodies but a reflection of what Vitiate can do as a disembodied essence. Why, then, are Palpatine's clones not treated in the same way? After all, Palpatine was more of an energy being than a physical being by DE (before, in fact), just like Valkorion. Their forms of possession and existences as an essence are identical, other than the fact that Vitiate is the beneficiary of having imparted part of his essence into his children. His Voice works the same way that Palpatine's clones do, except they can actually withstand his power, whereas Palpatine's clones couldn't.




But he could will himself back from the void, and he was only permanently defeated when every Jedi spirit prevented him from ever leaving the netherworld.



You're implying that it's an empty assumption, which is a ridiculous implication, and you know it's ridiculous. Brand said this with utter certainty and he wouldn't say it unless he was absolutely sure that it was the case.



Brand was responsible for bringing Palpatine's essence into the void, because when he died, Palpatine did with him. Brand wasn't responsible for permanently annihilating Palpatine - that was something that he accomplished with the aid of every other Jedi that had gone before.




Having read through your thread, I didn't find examples of him banishing essences into the void. I noticed he can affect the physical realm, but that's not going to banish Palpatine's essence into the void.



It's just too bad that Palpatine is more powerful than Freedon Nadd and has far greater willpower, isn't it? Not a comparable example.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He can, because he's made personal-sized Wormholes before.

Actually no, you haven't proven that yet. Your quote says that Sidious used a technique the Sith Lords granted him years ago, yet Sidious worked out Force Storm by himself. Fold Space or some other kind of teleport seems like a more concrete explanation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like you're getting desperate here and trying to discredit a perfectly canonical source.

"Gamer" doesn't sound like a Star Wars license. I'm just trying to verify that it is one.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, suggesting he can't when all it take is a mere "wilful inclination" is ridiculous, and you know it's ridiculous.

Cool concession. So you admit that he's never done it in combat just like I said. Nice!

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, you dumbass, he made it small enough to fit within the shaft and not affect his surroundings. That, and he did this as a weakened, disembodied spirit. Not indicative of what he could do in the flesh.

Also, he claims that his Force Storms are "vastly destructive", can "shatter the fabric of space", "swallow armies", "fold space", etc. I assume this stuff would be harder for him to control, but he doesn't need to swallow armies here.

Why? Wouldn't he want to kill Luke and Vader? This purely hypothetical mini-Force Storm you're talking about has a completely unknown destructive capacity. You cannot possibly say that it's powerful enough to destroy Valkorion. Obviously it wouldn't be capable swallowing armies or anything, it didn't affect the surroundings or the nearby Luke and Vader. Saying "well he didn't want to" means jack shit. He didn't, so he can't. It's up to you to prove that a miniscule version of the technique holds any destructive power at all. That it has enough potency to suck in and destroy anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine isn't trying to devour an entire fleet or moon here. He only needs to summon a small one on Valkorion. That won't take much time - considering the one in RotJ was instantaneous.

Which is why he used one to kill Vader. And Luke. And literally no one ever. He didn't use one in RotJ, you haven't proven that yet.

When he summoned the Force Storm in DE "all his hatred funneled into the Death Storm" such that he was unable to defend himself from the Skywalkers attack. Valkorion will annihilate him at the slightest chance. If Sidious could have used a small Force Storm as an attack, he'd have done it to the Skywalkers actively attacking him instead of the fleet.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Wormholes affect the physical, but they're not physical themselves. They're holes in space, in other words, holes in the physical. Barriers being able to defend against holes in the space-time continuum (ie. holes in reality itself) is incredibly suspect and extremely unlikely.

The wormholes destructive power lies in it's ability to suck up the nearby surroundings and rend them apart with with the massive forces its exhibits. A barrier would allow you to resist the pull of the wormhole, the force intending to pull you in and rend you apart.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate can traverse space in disembodied form but he may prefer to Teleport himself to a distant location. For example, Vitiate teleported himself to Ziost from Yavin 4.

I thought Vitiate did this when he consumed various energies to empower himself. And even provided that Sidious can't win via BFR, it's a stalemate.

Vitiate consumed those energies to return to his normal power, and he was still evidently far weaker than he would become after draining Ziost. Sidious obviously can't BFR Valkorion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually no, you haven't proven that yet. Your quote says that Sidious used a technique the Sith Lords granted him years ago, yet Sidious worked out Force Storm by himself. Fold Space or some other kind of teleport seems like a more concrete explanation.

That doesn't say he used a technique from Sith Lords, just that the technique he used was based on knowledge from those Sith Lords. You can make a technique yourself, but use knowledge from other Sith Lords to help yourself in doing so.



Alright, whatever. But it's a perfectly valid source.



I can concede that he hasn't shown it while he's dueling someone else, but if he isn't concentrating his energies on something else, he can summon one instantly, as he's shown.



Forget what I said about him choosing not to. But as a disembodied essence that had just died, his power would naturally be significantly decreased.



He was trying to show his power by annihilating the fleet, lol. And again, he's using a smaller Wormhole here, so it won't be the same level of difficulty to control.



That'd work if Palpatine summoned a Wormhole from afar and it was approaching Valkorion, but if the area around Valkorion is already turned into a hole in space, I'm not seeing Barrier being a saving grace.

Just responding to the other stuff:

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. No, I mean that he can't actually destroy the building and the quote doesn't suggest that.

With a thought, he can destroy the office/throne room (which is huge), and he can "crack the foundations of the building and rain rubble down on people below". Even if that's not complete destruction, it's good enough, considering the absolutely mammoth size of the building.



A very, very, very small fleet.



From what I could see, the most his Lightning did was ignite an engine or two and kill the crew inside/jam controls, making them lose control of the ships to blow themselves up. Not like you're making it out to be, and he wasn't doing that to dozens of starships either.



Not really, and Sidious did it casually, decades before RotJ.

More importantly, Sidious has overwhelmed Yoda's defenses with Lightning so powerful that Yoda thought walking against it was "like walking against hurricane winds". Again, decades before RotJ.

I know you're going to say that Yoda had difficulty absorbing Dooku's Lightning, but recent sources have retconned that to Yoda easily absorbing the Lightning (Dooku's killed Ventress with it while he was gravely injured) and is canonically more powerful than Revan, who laughed off Nyriss' attack with his powers impaired.



But the Dread Masters entering trances on immeasurably powerful DS nexuses to enact their fodder-dominating powers does?

Also, Sidious's mere presence on Byss for (I believe a few years, I'll have to check) turned the planet into one of the most powerful DS nexuses in history.



Dominating legions of fodder Jedi/Sith on an "immeasurably powerful" DS nexus and with ritualistic powers doesn't strike me as superior to what Palpatine has done.



But being vastly above them does. Besides, there's always Palpatine being canonically more powerful than Vitiate, who is more powerful than them....



If he's more powerful, Force Blasts and TK will be giving him the win. He also has Drain.



When did Nadd make his holocron? I'm asking because the likes of Bane and Naga Sadow made their holocrons before they reached the peak of their knowledge - Bane made his while he had the Orbalisks, and Sadow made his before the Great Hyperspace War.



Being vastly more powerful than Sadow and comparable to the likes of Ragnos/Muur puts him above Zannah, yeah.



It isn't an instant win, but it's a definite advantage.



I was kidding, obviously.



Well, that depends on how powerful we take his will to be, what his fears are, etc. Besides, Nadd can enact the same attack on Zannah, can he not?



Zannah crushing anyone immediately is a bit suspect.

Also, I don't see Thanaton overwhelming either Leia or Nomi, tbh.

Isn't there a letter you recieve after using Valkorions power to defeat Arcann where Lana tells you how many people it killed? And it was some stupid high number? I tried looking for it but I must have already deleted it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, I don't see Thanaton overwhelming either Leia or Nomi, tbh.
Why not? What defenses do they have against his sorcery?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not? What defenses do they have against his sorcery?

Incredible willpower? Anti-DS powers? Also, it seems like Thanaton falls back on traditional powers moreso than Sorcery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't there a letter you recieve after using Valkorions power to defeat Arcann where Lana tells you how many people it killed? And it was some stupid high number? I tried looking for it but I must have already deleted it. isn't it hundreds of people?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Incredible willpower? Anti-DS powers? Also, it seems like Thanaton falls back on traditional powers moreso than Sorcery.
Darth Thanaton Darth Nox with an unidentified technique (presumably sorcery) during their first encounter. Luckily for Darth Nox, the Force ghosts bind to him, revived him.

That post is too long for me to quote. I'll have to do this the long way, then:



Palpatine's Force Sense far outstrips that of any Force user in KotFE.



They were, but Palpatine is far more capable than them when it comes to Sense.



Sorry, I meant "Children", not "Voice".



I've read your blog enough to know that it sorely lacks contextual support. But that's discussion for another day - the posts in this thread are long enough as they are.

By the way, your quote doesn't say anything I didn't know. "Resigned to the madness beyond death" is anything different to the "maddening, bodiless existence of the void" that Palpatine escaped by sheer force of will.



I don't need tutoring in what Sith spirits are or what their limitations are. And yes, Palpatine was an exception - that's why there's such a big deal about him escaping chaos by virtue of sheer will. It's because nobody else could do that.



That doesn't discredit it at all. It just repeats what Brand said in third-person perspective, and doesn't say whether or not the promise was proven false. Again, you're suggesting that the promise was empty, which is laughable. You're in denial now.



A "thought"? Why would Brand promise something (with such stakes) if he didn't know it was going to happen?

Please use your head. Every time this happened in the past with Palpatine's physical form being destroyed, his spirit wasn't vanquished permanently. He even escaped chaos by himself. The fact that Palpatine never made it out again, despite the fact that he has done so before, is because every other Jedi spirit in existence prevented him from doing so. Otherwise, he'd just escape by sheer will again.



Please don't try to correct me on DE. And Sidious has escaped from chaos before, as I have repeatedly cited (and as you have repeatedly ignored, even after putting the quote in your blog). That's the point - Brand's death, in of itself, would never finish off Sidious like that. Sidious has escaped the void



Palpatine's host has died more than once before this - never once was his fate automatically ended as a result. The same goes for Vitiate. And there are other examples, too. Naga Sadow possessed Eison Gynt - when Gynt was slain, Sadow's spirit wasn't permanently killed, as it appears again in TOR.



So can Valkorion's. And before you re-cite all those Marr quotes again, nobody from TOR could influence spirits. That's not the case here.



I never made mention of his corporeal powers. He's an energy being at his core. But the fact that he's canonically more powerful than any Sith Lord in history is relevant - because he retains that power as an essence, it's just that he can't use it effectively.



If only you applied that standard to Valkorion. And Palpatine is the exception, so no, Nadd's example doesn't tell me anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine's Force Sense far outstrips that of any Force user in KotFE.
I am sorry but this is based on?

Palpatine's powers are not infallible.

Example 1:

But in failing to foresee Luke's defiance, the Emperor reveals that his own powers are infallible, and a wounded Vader realizes Palpatine can be destroyed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Example 2:

But Palpatine could not foresee the strength of the Light Side as Leia finally got through to her brother and pulled him out of darkness.

Taken from Dark Empire Hand Book # 3

The aforementioned examples represent failure of precognition. I am sure there would be more but I came across these two so far.

Even Yoda - whose connection with the Force was greater than most - didn't had infallible Force sense and precognition. He failed to recognize Palpatine as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious just like every other Jedi of his era until it was too late.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They were, but Palpatine is far more capable than them when it comes to Sense.
see above

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, I meant "Children", not "Voice".
OK

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've read your blog enough to know that it sorely lacks contextual support. But that's discussion for another day - the posts in this thread are long enough as they are.
Right...

I know that you don't have a counterargument for it. Nobody has.

Originally posted by SunRazer
By the way, your quote doesn't say anything I didn't know. "Resigned to the madness beyond death" is anything different to the "maddening, bodiless existence of the void" that Palpatine escaped by sheer force of will.
It isn't anything unique. This is how Sith spirits come into being. Darth Marr pulled it off as well even though he was not interested in immortality and related stuff.

However, what you are not realizing is the fact that it is really difficult for a Sith spirit to retain its presence in the 'physical realm' because the pull of void is always bearing down on them. Therefore, they tend to anchor themselves to regions strong in the Dark Side or artifacts to counter the continuous pull of the void. Palpatine was not an exception to this rule either; he knew that he could not resist the pull of void forever. This is why he was in search of corporeal vessels. Your assumption that Palpatine could do it again and again is unfounded and baseless.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't need tutoring in what Sith spirits are or what their limitations are. And yes, Palpatine was an exception - that's why there's such a big deal about him escaping chaos by virtue of sheer will. It's because nobody else could do that.
See above

Originally posted by SunRazer
That doesn't discredit it at all. It just repeats what Brand said in third-person perspective, and doesn't say whether or not the promise was proven false. Again, you're suggesting that the promise was empty, which is laughable. You're in denial now.
It was a claim that could not be independently verified.

I am not in denial, I do not take belief and thoughts at face value like you. Not without context.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A "thought"? Why would Brand promise something (with such stakes) if he didn't know it was going to happen?

Please use your head. Every time this happened in the past with Palpatine's physical form being destroyed, his spirit wasn't vanquished permanently. He even escaped chaos by himself. The fact that Palpatine never made it out again, despite the fact that he has done so before, is because every other Jedi spirit in existence prevented him from doing so. Otherwise, he'd just escape by sheer will again.
This is entirely wrong.

Palpatine's essence was never intercepted by a dying Jedi before. Palpatine would shed a decaying clone and shift his essence to another without experiencing any resistance (safest approach for Essence Transfer). There is significant difference between the two cases.

And Palpatine could not escape the void (again). This was a one-time occurrence as is the case with any Sith spirit. See above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Please don't try to correct me on DE. And Sidious has escaped from chaos before, as I have repeatedly cited (and as you have repeatedly ignored, even after putting the quote in your blog). That's the point - Brand's death, in of itself, would never finish off Sidious like that. Sidious has escaped the void
You really need to correct your knowledge.

Brand's death sealed the fate of Palpatine. My point is confirmed in several sources:

But as his spirit rose from his body and shot towards the defenseless child, the Jedi Empatojayos Brand, mortally wounded during the battle, intercepted it and took Palpatine within himself. As Brand died, he took Palpatine with him, and the once-great Emperor of a million worlds was no more.

From Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--

As the Emperor fell towards death yet again, he attempted to send his spirit into the baby Anakin - but Empatojayos Brand intercepted the dark essence. Clasping himself to the light, Brand held the Emperor's presence within his body as they both succumbed to death.

With all of his clones destroyed, Emperor Palpatine was finally defeated.

From Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--

Before his soul could enter Anakin's body, Palpatine was intercepted by a newfound Jedi Empatojayos Brand. Cut off from host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by madness that was the Dark Side. After so many decades of bloodshed, the Emperor was truly dead.

From The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The aforementioned sources are wrong? Or you pick and choose among the revelations?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine's host has died more than once before this - never once was his fate automatically ended as a result. The same goes for Vitiate. And there are other examples, too. Naga Sadow possessed Eison Gynt - when Gynt was slain, Sadow's spirit wasn't permanently killed, as it appears again in TOR.
Palpatine shifted his essence to a fresh clone from a decaying one when he felt it necessary. Don't twist the facts.

Naga Sadow was a Sith Sorcerer and might have made arrangements for anchoring his essence in more than one place that was strong in the Dark Side. Sadow possessed Jedi padawan Gynt in his own Tomb on Korriban but there is no official confirmation of Sadow's return after his host was slain.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So can Valkorion's. And before you re-cite all those Marr quotes again, nobody from TOR could influence spirits. That's not the case here.
I do not believe that Valkorion is omnipotent in disembodied form. He is immortal, not omnipotent. Though how he would fall, remains to be seen.

Nobody from TOR could influence Sith spirits? Have you played the story of Sith Inquisitor? Don't make silly assumptions.

Barsen'thor III also demonstrated the capability to exorcise a possessed host; Lord Vivicar. This is Light Side option.

In Dark Side option, you can kill Lord Vivicar in-order-to banish the Sith Spirit of Terrak Morrhage to the void (permanently) but this action results in the deaths of all Jedi who were under influence of Lord Vivicar.

"Kill me, and you will kill every Master I have infected. Every one! Shielded or not, they are still bound to me." (Lord Vivicar)

Originally posted by SunRazer
I never made mention of his corporeal powers. He's an energy being at his core. But the fact that he's canonically more powerful than any Sith Lord in history is relevant - because he retains that power as an essence, it's just that he can't use it effectively.
Here:

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

From Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Originally posted by SunRazer
If only you applied that standard to Valkorion. And Palpatine is the exception, so no, Nadd's example doesn't tell me anything.
Palpatine is not an exception.

Again, the quoting system is effed. But we're repeating ourselves by debating the same points over and over in different areas. I'm going to address them individually once, and only once.



These aren't comparable examples. Foresight isn't the same as Force Sense at all, given that Sidious completely managed to sense Luke's emotions, inner thoughts, memories, etc.

As for Yoda, the Dark Side clouds the vision of Jedi, not the Sith. Sidious isn't going to be affected by a dark side shroud.



If that's what you believe, then so be it. I'm not going to deny that it's founded on facts, but you make some outlandish claims there. But as I said, this is discussion for something else, so don't tempt me into further discussion of this.



It's not a thought, it's a statement. Why would Brand make it up? The fact that you took Marr's claims of Vitiate not being able to be destroyed or contained in complete faith but were unwilling to extend the same courtesy to Brand's statement is proof of your confirmation bias. These are all character statements, all the same. Kindly desist with the double standards.



Yes, I know that. When Brand died, Palpatine died with him. I'm not disputing this. I'm saying that every Jedi spirit that ever existed was required to prevent Palpatine's return.



I'm not twisting any facts. Palpatine has died before, his essence has been cast into the Void before, and he's escaped it before.



I don't know what you're talking about. You seem to be willing to make wild speculations to support yourself if your view is threatened, but you're not willing to allow others to do the same and berate others for having anything that isn't repeatedly supported by more than one source, because apparently one source isn't enough. Once again, lose the double standards.

Sadow's spirit appears again in TOR. That's not supposed to be possible if his host was killed, according to you.



Yes, I have, and binding Force Ghosts isn't the same as destroying an essence. At all. For that matter, the SI storyline makes it clear that there isn't a way to outright destroy spirits.



I've played the Jedi Consular story as well. Exorcising someone from their physical body isn't the same as destroying their essence, which certainly didn't happen because we see Terrak Morrhage exclaiming in anger after he's been exorcised.



Isn't this Luke's opinion? That would make sense, given that he wasn't aware of Palpatine rending space after his RotJ death to teleport his essence. Of course Palpatine can't use conventional powers as an essence (DE reaffirms this), but that doesn't make him completely powerless as Gamer #5 proves.

Speaking of teleporting essences, when you mentioned Valkorion being able to transport himself from Yavin IV to Ziost, that's not anything special - even Freedon Nadd showed that power. That just means that as spirits, they can manifest themselves wherever a place strong in the Dark Side is. However, the location here isn't a DS nexus, meaning that Valkorion can't reform his essence here at will. So if Palpatine BFR's him, it's game over.



Yes, he is. Being resigned to the Void normally results in the annihilation of your consciousness and your inability to return, ever again. Palpatine is the only one who has defied that. You cited Darth Marr and other Force Ghosts as comparable examples - they're not. Force Ghosts never come into contact with the Void.

Originally posted by SunRazer
These aren't comparable examples. Foresight isn't the same as Force Sense at all, given that Sidious completely managed to sense Luke's emotions, inner thoughts, memories, etc.

As for Yoda, the Dark Side clouds the vision of Jedi, not the Sith. Sidious isn't going to be affected by a dark side shroud.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/31950a8dde52ecd8682a85400b5b3aff/tumblr_inline_nsiqv6OvZw1rm8mui_400.png

My point is: Palpatine's powers aren't infallible. I validated my point through a few examples.

Now coming towards Force sense; I find your analogy problematic. Did Luke Skywalker ever attempt to conceal his presence from Palpatine? I doubt this.

Valkorion, on the other hand, demonstrated the capability to conceal his footprint (and even those of his minions) from any Jedi and/or Sith with great success. The Jedi couldn't figure out the presence of Valkorion's Children among-st themselves until First Son was neutralized. Similarly, Jedi and/or Sith were not able to figure out disembodied presence of Valkorion on Ziost to affect it directly; they came across only the 'possessed' hosts. The leaders of the Empire went as far as to assemble a contingent of powerful Sith Seers (a specialized branch?) to get a fix on the disembodied presence of Valkorion but to no avail.

FYI:

1. Darth Marr had excellent Force sense. He could sense the presence of a Voice of Valkorion (and any other being) from a great distance . He even managed to sense the presence of disembodied Valkorion (on Yavin 4) and Revan's spirit.

"The Jedi and I, we both felt it--a ripple in the Force. You had a visitor. A manifestation." (Darth Marr)

However, even Darth Marr was not able to figure out the presence of disembodied Valkorion (on Ziost) because the latter had been effectively concealing his footprint this time to prevent his enemies from affecting him directly.

2. Do you recall a meeting between Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit and Yoda? The former made his presence apparent to the latter by affecting the latter through telekinesis. Yoda couldn't sense the presence of Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit beforehand.

---

Therefore, my points (Palpatine's fallibility and Valkorion's ability to effectively conceal his presence from detection by Jedi and/or Sith), collectively lead to the conclusion that Palpatine may not be able to figure out disembodied presence of Valkorion in a short span of time to BFR him and Valkorion can take advantage of this.

Clear enough?

Originally posted by SunRazer
If that's what you believe, then so be it. I'm not going to deny that it's founded on facts, but you make some outlandish claims there. But as I said, this is discussion for something else, so don't tempt me into further discussion of this.
Feel free to respond here when you have time: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t625081.html

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not a thought, it's a statement. Why would Brand make it up? The fact that you took Marr's claims of Vitiate not being able to be destroyed or contained in complete faith but were unwilling to extend the same courtesy to Brand's statement is proof of your confirmation bias. These are all character statements, all the same. Kindly desist with the double standards.

Yes, I know that. When Brand died, Palpatine died with him. I'm not disputing this. I'm saying that every Jedi spirit that ever existed was required to prevent Palpatine's return.
How would Jedi spirits prevent return of Palpatine's spirit from the void?

Jedi do not inhabit the void (realm of chaos) after corporeal demise like Sith spirits, should they become one themselves. Jedi spirits are like representatives of the will of the Cosmic Force, materializing during dire situations to guide the living. Moreover, if a Sith spirit gets pulled into the void, it is gone forever and can never return.

And there is no independent confirmation of Jedi spirits interacting with Sith spirits in the void so far (correct me if I am wrong about this).

Here is Luke Skywalker's perspective of the event in question:

Brand said he could feel himself being eaten alive by the darkness, and he could not stop it. Or maybe he would not stop it. He said that Palpatine would die with him, and that Palpatine would never return. "The Force," he said, "and all Jedi who went before us will make sure of that." And then Brand died.

Had I known how to contain and destroy Palpatine, I would have done it to save you. Because I do not know this ability, I am grateful that Brand was with us. He was greater Jedi than I.

Notice the phrase "The Force" there in addition to the statement that you cling to? Luke also noted that some kind of technique was involved in containing Palpatine' essence within and banishing it to the void through corporeal death. Empatojayos Brand had knowledge of this technique.

Again, you are taking a 'belief' of Brand at face value. His last words were more or less metaphorical, nothing else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not twisting any facts. Palpatine has died before, his essence has been cast into the Void before, and he's escaped it before.
There is a revelation that Sate Pestage had a hand in this. The source is Dark Empire III:Empire's End.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know what you're talking about. You seem to be willing to make wild speculations to support yourself if your view is threatened, but you're not willing to allow others to do the same and berate others for having anything that isn't repeatedly supported by more than one source, because apparently one source isn't enough. Once again, lose the double standards.

Sadow's spirit appears again in TOR. That's not supposed to be possible if his host was killed, according to you.
Sadow's spirit appears again in TOR? Provide evidence.

B/W I find your accusation of my double-standards ironic, given your arguments in favor of Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I have, and binding Force Ghosts isn't the same as destroying an essence. At all. For that matter, the SI storyline makes it clear that there isn't a way to outright destroy spirits.

I've played the Jedi Consular story as well. Exorcising someone from their physical body isn't the same as destroying their essence, which certainly didn't happen because we see Terrak Morrhage exclaiming in anger after he's been exorcised.
Again:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/31950a8dde52ecd8682a85400b5b3aff/tumblr_inline_nsiqv6OvZw1rm8mui_400.png

My point is that Jedi and Sith could affect Sith spirits with certain techniques. But they were not able to affect disembodied Valkorion on Ziost due to reasons mentioned above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Isn't this Luke's opinion? That would make sense, given that he wasn't aware of Palpatine rending space after his RotJ death to teleport his essence. Of course Palpatine can't use conventional powers as an essence (DE reaffirms this), but that doesn't make him completely powerless as Gamer #5 proves.
That wasn't Luke's opinion. That was an observation of a Jedi scholar.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Speaking of teleporting essences, when you mentioned Valkorion being able to transport himself from Yavin IV to Ziost, that's not anything special - even Freedon Nadd showed that power. That just means that as spirits, they can manifest themselves wherever a place strong in the Dark Side is. However, the location here isn't a DS nexus, meaning that Valkorion can't reform his essence here at will. So if Palpatine BFR's him, it's game over.
Valkorion could materialize anywhere in spiritual form. For example, he materialized on Asylum (a space-sport located over a gas giant) to assist the Outlander against Arcann. However, Arcann noted that Valkorion was weaker here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, he is. Being resigned to the Void normally results in the annihilation of your consciousness and your inability to return, ever again. Palpatine is the only one who has defied that. You cited Darth Marr and other Force Ghosts as comparable examples - they're not. Force Ghosts never come into contact with the Void.
See above.

Regarding Darth Marr: my point is that he willed himself to incorporeal existence after his corporeal demise. However, he admitted that resisting the pull of Void was taxing for him. This is impressive.

@Legend - I'll respond later or tomorrow.