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The Master-Apprentice duo make an assault on the Zakuul spire, making it all the way to the Eternal Throne room. How well do they fare against:

Warm up: 5 Zakuul Knights

1. 20 Zakuul Knights

2. 15 Zakuul Knights and Thexan

3. 15 Zakuul Knights and Vaylin

4. 15 Zakuul Knights and Arcann

5. 10 Zakuul Knights, Arcann, and Vaylin

6. Arcann, Vaylin, and Thexan

7. The Immortal Emperor Valkorion

Boss: Valkorion and Arcann

Full rest between fights.

Valkorion or Boss.

Done at Valkorion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkorion or Boss. lol are you serious? They're not passing Valkorion.

Originally posted by Sinious
lol are you serious? They're not passing Valkorion.

*Blinks at someone giving Valk more cred than Neph and shrugs* Agreed.

5

Clear

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Clear

I get you enjoy trolling but this just made me need an extra year in residential treatment

How far does the duo get Beni?

@Beni

Can't tell if you're laughing because you think that was a solid response, just generally found the comment humorous, because you know the pain, or some
Other reason, either way idc just was curious what the laughing face was meant to mean

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I get you enjoy trolling but this just made me need an extra year in residential treatment

Contrary to TOR wankers er, popular belief, there have not been any omniscient sources to confirm that Vitiate is more powerful than any Sith preceding him. Even if we consider the TOR encyclopedia to be third person omniscient, being more powerful does not mean that you are a deadlier overall combatant, and so there is still room to debate the issue.

Valkorion takes credit for many feats that demonstrate a potent understanding of various dark side rituals and sorcery, but his actual combative demonstrations are scarce, and those which exist are almost always on some sort of Force nexus. He has easily beaten a strike team of four featless Jedi, and has one-shotted some marginally powerful characters like Darth Marr, but that's about it. What has he actually done off-nexus that makes people think him to be so deadly as a combatant? Indeed, his performance in the Revan novel, although before his prime, elucidates just how awful of a fighter he is, getting disarmed by a saber throw from the Exile that allegedly would've killed him had she aimed for his body, getting knocked on his ass by Revan, etc. This is hardly surprising; Valkorion has pretty much no experience having to actually fight people who are on remote parity with him, and when he does, he usually loses.

Did I mention he was scared of Freedon Nadd, who Exar Kun is far more powerful than?

Exar Kun, meanwhile, is able to put Luke into a coma, and he does this as a spirit - which, as confirmed by the author, is weaker than his flesh form even when taking into account Yavin's nexus. He also has the aid of Kyp, but it's stated that Exar is only able to access "some" of his powers with him, and Kyp himself notes that his Force abilities with respect to sensing are feeble compared to Exar's, so the evidence points towards full power Exar > spirit Exar + Kyp. He also does this right after having helped Kyp lift the sun crusher out of the gravity well of a gas giant, which is stated to have tired him. This is a later version of the Luke, mind you, who defeats the reborn Emperor in a lightsaber duel. On their first encounter, the reborn Palpatine comments that Luke could give him a tough fight .

This alone is a far greater combat feat than anything Valkorion has ever done, given that he relies heavily on everyone else being far weaker than him, along with prep, rituals and nexuses.

Let's say you think that Valkorion is more powerful in the Force than Exar Kun is. That doesn't mean he would win a fight. The disparity between the two in dueling prowess means that Valkorion needs to be so much more powerful than Exar that he can ragdoll him outright. Given that it's implied that Murr > Vader, and Exar is explicitly stronger than prior ancient Sith, Valkorion would have to be capable of ragdolling a Vader tier enemy. Yoda, who is on par with Sidious, who is explicitly stronger than Valkorion, cannot ragdoll Dooku, who is weaker than Vader. There's no reason to believe that Valkorion can do that to Exar, just because he can one-shot weaklings like Darth Marr when he's distracted fighting his guards.

Tipping the battle in Exar's favor, Ulic is vastly more powerful than Arcann, given that he was able to stalemate an Exar not far from his prime, while Arcann got one-shotted by Valkorion. Seeing as how Yoda couldn't one-shot Dooku and Yoda ~ Sidious > Valkorion, Arcann must be significantly weaker than Dooku, potentially weaker than Savage or Ventress.

The two together easily crush Valkorion and take the majority against the boss.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
@Beni

Can't tell if you're laughing because you think that was a solid response, just generally found the comment humorous, because you know the pain, or some
Other reason, either way idc just was curious what the laughing face was meant to mean The underlined.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How far does the duo get Beni? Potentially 6, definitely 7.

Reasoning?

Arcann is a match for Exar Kun, he won't win, but he is a match. So if Thexan is anywhere near his brothers ability, Kun is going to be overwhelmed.

However Vaylin's defeat at the hands of Senya, suggests Ulic will give her an ass-whooping, so it really depends on who goes down first. But they could very well stop there.

The fact that they stop at 7 should be pretty obvious, frankly I have Revan Reborn above or at least equal to Exar Kun, so Kun's going to get pwned even harder than he did. Ulic is a footnote.

Arcann "potentially weaker than savage and ventress" is the funniest thing I've read in a while
Anyway valkorion might be able to beat them
If not then they definitely can't beat the boss

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Arcann "potentially weaker than savage and ventress" is the funniest thing I've read in a while

Appealing to personal incredulity - impressive. Only the greatest of all master debaters can pull off such an arcane tactic.

Only elite Sith like Darth Marr (who has fought entire armies) has the hope of beating elite Zakuul soldiers. They lose at the warmup in a bloodbath in favor of the Zakuul soldiers

Sidious did one-shot Dooku actually. Yoda not Force pwning him isn't because he can't (though offense isn't his bag), he didn't try to.

But yeah, retarded.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Arcann is a match for Exar Kun, he won't win, but he is a match. So if Thexan is anywhere near his brothers ability, Kun is going to be overwhelmed.

However Vaylin's defeat at the hands of Senya, suggests Ulic will give her an ass-whooping, so it really depends on who goes down first. But they could very well stop there.

The fact that they stop at 7 should be pretty obvious, frankly I have Revan Reborn above or at least equal to Exar Kun, so Kun's going to get pwned even harder than he did. Ulic is a footnote.

Why is Senya beating Vaylin a bad showing for Vaylin instead of a good showing for Senya? Just curious, she's implied to be pretty ****ing solid...

Originally posted by Nephthys Sidious did one-shot Dooku actually.

Obviously Dooku is going to resist Sidious with his full power.



Right, he endangered the lives of Anakin and Obi Wan, and enabled the deadliest galactic war in history, because he wanted to fight Dooku for the lolz.

Heck, even if he just doesn't want to kill Dooku, he's more likely to do so by slipping through his guard in a duel than by ragdolling him.



Softball arguments, as usual.

Cuz Dooku just gets off on being choked?

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
- Yoda, Empire Strikes Back.

:I

Originally posted by Selenial
Why is Senya beating Vaylin a bad showing for Vaylin instead of a good showing for Senya? Just curious, she's implied to be pretty ****ing solid... Well I don't doubt her skills, but I do doubt she's better than Ulic, especially considering she's stated to be less powerful than Arcann + Vaylin as children and considering Ulic stalemate Kun in combat.

Still, Vaylin actually did last some time.

Arcann, Theron + Vaylin combined.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cuz Dooku just gets off on being choked?

It's called cost-benefit analysis, idiot. If he tries to resist or fight back, what do you think would happen to him?



Funny, I seem to recall him Force pushing Darth Sidious and squads of clone troopers in RotS, and tossing Dooku's lightning back at him in AotC. It's almost like self-defense doesn't count as attack.

He'd stop being choked, not that he could actually stop it. Sidious ragdolled Maul + Savage, he can ragdoll Dooku.

You want an explanation for why Yoda didn't ragdoll Dooku, Yoda literally says why not. Knocking people out and pushing someone over a desk are hardly aggressive moves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arcann, Theron + Vaylin combined. Meh, still kids.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd stop being choked, not that he could actually stop it.

Then Sidious would f*ck up him even harder. Children who get beaten by their parents typically don't fight back. Kids being bullied by much larger kids typically don't either. Just because you fight back against Tempest doesn't mean this is common behavior.



Dooku > Maul + Savage.



Nice job ignoring my response - Yoda knocks plenty of people out with the Force, like red guards and clone troopers. If he could've saved trillions of lives by just slamming Dooku against the ceiling, he would've. Heck, he tosses Dooku's lightning back at him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Potentially 6, definitely 7.

Unfortunate that you experienced the hell that is an RTC

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arcann, Theron + Vaylin combined.
Vaylin was a goddamned vegetable, so she really doesn't count anyway.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Then Sidious would f*ck up him even harder. Children who get beaten by their parents typically don't fight back. Kids being bullied by much larger kids typically don't either. Just because you fight back against Tempest doesn't mean this is common behavior.

So you admit Sidious could have ****ed him up with the Force regardless of Dooku's effort? Nice.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dooku > Maul + Savage.

Pffffffffffffffft! Dooku is a bit more powerful than Maul alone. Dooku sure didn't seem to be > Maul and Savage when Savage started choking him and Ventress at the same time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice job ignoring my response - Yoda knocks plenty of people out with the Force, like red guards and clone troopers. If he could've saved trillions of lives by just slamming Dooku against the ceiling, he would've. Heck, he tosses Dooku's lightning back at him.

Yoda isn't going to beat Dooku unconscious with the Force. He'd need to get pretty aggressive and violent to manage that, which he won't do for philosophical and sentimental reasons. Yoda obviously knew Dooku could handle his own dang lightning, geez.

Yoda could have saved hundreds or thousands from Ventress if he's not been such a twit in episode 1 of the CW and actually subdued her. The narrative of the PT is that Yoda is wildly incompetent and his hubris leads to disaster. Windu also notes that he could have stopped Dooku in AotC but didn't out of sentimentality.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So you admit Sidious could have ****ed him up with the Force regardless of Dooku's effort? Nice.


Are you actually this dense? Sidious is significantly deadlier than Dooku, and so could f*ck him up in any number of ways. This does not mean that you can put him unarmed against an armed Dooku and another armed near-Dooku combatant and be confident in his odds. Actually, it's more accurate to put an unarmed Sidious against Vader and Starkiller; I would bet on the team in that scenario.



Yeah, and Maul also fought Sidious evenly for a few seconds, so that must mean that he's beyond Yoda.

Generally speaking Dooku is far above Maul, given that Dooku can fend off RotS Anakin (who is significantly stronger than season 5 Anakin) and Obi Wan at the same time, kick the former away and then ragdoll the latter.



Funny, Yoda murdered plenty of clones with the Force, knocked Sidious on his ass, and knocked out those two red guards cold, as I just pointed out.



Comparing Sidious/Yoda to Dooku is geing generous anyway. It's more accurate to compare Sidious and Vader, since Sidious > Valkorion and IMHO Exar >= Vader.

Scores of Knights of Zakuul were close to overwhelming Outlander, Lana Beniko and even Senya during chapter 5....

Luke could still solo them all TUF style.

Yeh well there were a lot more than twenty and more importantly Exar Kun is far more powerful than the Outlander, whom himself is the only one comparable to Ulic on that list.

Kun arguably would just choke the Knights out.

Because Exar's TK is great enough to suggest he can choke any force user out, lmao

His drained spirit was choking out a melded team of powerful Jedi, consisting of Kam Solusar, Dorsk 81, Streen, Brakiss, Tionne Solusar, Kirana Ti, Cilghal, Jacen Solo, and Jaina Solo. All of whom were empowering each other with a meld, that was the only thing saving them.

He cleans house with generic Zakuul Knights.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Let's say you think that Valkorion is more powerful in the Force than Exar Kun is. That doesn't mean he would win a fight. The disparity between the two in dueling prowess means that Valkorion needs to be so much more powerful than Exar that he can ragdoll him outright. Given that it's implied that Murr > Vader, and Exar is explicitly stronger than prior ancient Sith, Valkorion would have to be capable of ragdolling a Vader tier enemy. Yoda, who is on par with Sidious, who is explicitly stronger than Valkorion, cannot ragdoll Dooku, who is weaker than Vader. There's no reason to believe that Valkorion can do that to Exar, just because he can one-shot weaklings like Darth Marr when he's distracted fighting his guards.
A Force-user doesn't needs to be significantly above the opponent to affect him with telekinetic powers.

Example 1: Tol Braga versus Hero of Tython

Example 2: Darth Malgus versus Aryn Leener

Example 3: Desann versus Luke Skywalker

---

How is Palpatine significantly stronger then Vitiate?

---

Vitiate dominated powerhouses such as Revan, Arcann and Darth Marr. I'd say he can dominate Exar Kun as well.

---

Darth Marr had his attention towards Vitiate when the latter struck. I have addressed this particular matter several times now. It is just that Vitiate struck Darth Marr before the latter could even react. Here it is again:

http://i65.tinypic.com/34o3lfc.png

You have memory issues or you deliberately ignore provided evidence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tipping the battle in Exar's favor, Ulic is vastly more powerful than Arcann, given that he was able to stalemate an Exar not far from his prime, while Arcann got one-shotted by Valkorion. Seeing as how Yoda couldn't one-shot Dooku and Yoda ~ Sidious > Valkorion, Arcann must be significantly weaker than Dooku, potentially weaker than Savage or Ventress.
Again with the unfounded claims?

Ulic Qel-Droma vastly more powerful than Arcann based on what exactly?

Arcann is significantly weaker than Count Dooku based on what exactly?

Arcann dominated the Outlander (i.e. Hero of Tython) in a confrontation and the latter is more then a match for Count Dooku by virtue of power-scaling.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The two together easily crush Valkorion and take the majority against the boss.
Right.........

No.

Valkorion turns Ulic against Exar Kun and proceeds to eliminate the remaining opponent.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Are you actually this dense? Sidious is significantly deadlier than Dooku, and so could f*ck him up in any number of ways. This does not mean that you can put him unarmed against an armed Dooku and another armed near-Dooku combatant and be confident in his odds. Actually, it's more accurate to put an unarmed Sidious against Vader and Starkiller; I would bet on the team in that scenario.

Sidious is across the galaxy from him, how can he **** him up if Dooku is capable of resisting his force attacks, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, and Maul also fought Sidious evenly for a few seconds, so that must mean that he's beyond Yoda.

Generally speaking Dooku is far above Maul, given that Dooku can fend off RotS Anakin (who is significantly stronger than season 5 Anakin) and Obi Wan at the same time, kick the former away and then ragdoll the latter.

Cuz Yoda can't fight Sidious evenly?

Dooku isn't far above Maul in anything except beards and capes. Ventress can fend off Anakin and Obi-Wan at once as well, so can Savage. Big deal.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Funny, Yoda murdered plenty of clones with the Force, knocked Sidious on his ass, and knocked out those two red guards cold, as I just pointed out.

Yoda hasn't murdered anyone with the Force. And his displays against Sidious and the red guards were not particularly aggressive or offensive. Also the annihilation of the Jedi Order miiiight have made him a bit more willing to go to extremes than in AotC when he doesn't know how it's going to be war. Yoda isn't going to beat Dooku into submission with the Force, Dooku is his beloved student and it's too aggressive and dark for him to do that.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Comparing Sidious/Yoda to Dooku is geing generous anyway. It's more accurate to compare Sidious and Vader, since Sidious > Valkorion and IMHO Exar >= Vader.

Dunno what they relevance of this is so I'm going to assume it's a concession. Yoda is a moron whose arrogance and hubris ruined everything. Him not going all-out on Dooku is completely in character and justifiable. Once again, Yoda himself tells you why he didn't beat Dooku's ass with the Force. /discussion