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Another thread; testing the ever-nebulous opinions of our fellowship.

Round one:

With both characters at their peak, who would win in a 1v1 battle? Assume the contest takes place in the empty Geonosian arena as depicted in Episode II, a neutral environment.

Round two:

As a separate issue, which character is more cosmologically powerful? Your considerations should include applications of the Force in terms of both scale and skill, direct and indirect, destructive and passive. tl;dr: consider might and mastery.

Round three:

Which character is more important? Consider the depth and scope of their geopolitical, historical, and cosmological achievements.

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/swtor-valkorion1.jpg

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Round 1 Sidious

Round 2. I would give it to Sidious

Round 3. Probably Valkorion but I could be persuaded.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Round 1 Sidious

Round 2. I would give it to Sidious

Round 3. Probably Valkorion but I could be persuaded.

http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tumblr_mk2gryogyw1rsc2xho4_500.gif

Sidious in all, though the first two are close.

Three is Sidious in a landslide.

Sheev is canon Palpatine who probably loses. Assuming Legends:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Round one:

With both characters at their peak, who would win in a 1v1 battle? Assume the contest takes place in the empty Geonosian arena as depicted in Episode II, a neutral environment.


Palpatine crushes him. If the two are comparable, or if Valky is marginally superior in the Force, Vitiate won't be able to kill Palpatine before he forces a melee, and then Valkorion obviously gets sliced and diced. His only hope of victory is to win really, really quickly, and that's only possible if he substantially outclasses Palpatine in the Force.

He doesn't, though; the reverse is closer to being true. Palpatine outmatches his greatest destructive feat (Force storms are more destructive than Ziost, and done without prep, a ritual or nexus), exceeds him in telepathy (dominating Luke and Vader >> not being able to dominate Scourge or the Outlander), exceeds him in telekinesis (muses that he can destroy the kilometers long imperial palace, is far more powerful than Vader+Starkiller, both of which have feats on the level of manipulating and destroying capital ships vs. destroying a random temple on a nexus), exceeds him in Force lightning (overloading Yoda's tutanimus >>> killing Darth Marr and random weaklings) and vastly exceeds him in Force speed (blitzing three celebrated Jedi masters + pre-vaapad Windu). Valkorion's only potential advantages come with rituals and sorcery that are useless in a one vs. one confrontation.

Sidious is also a more experienced and capable combatant, having trained with Plagueis by fighting and deflecting fire from hundreds of battle droids decades before his prime, while the Revan novel shows us how awful in actual confrontations Valkorion is whenever he actually has to fight someone.

Sidious is more powerful in the Force, and even if he weren't, he'd still win by virtue of being much faster and deadlier.




Palpatine, and it's only marginally closer than round 1.

Destruction: Palpatine's Force storms threatened to "consume all of space". Even if you dismiss that quote as outlandish, they still demonstrate a far greater destructive ability than anything Vitiate has ever done, and can be performed without a ritual or nexus.

Telepathy (large scale): Valkorion does have impressive feats in this category, but once again, most of them are done on a nexus or via rituals, and Palpatine matches them with Byss. Palpatine needs neither to remove a specific memory from the minds of trillions of witnesses. He also manages to shroud the Force abilities of the Jedi Order at its peak, to the point where it couldn't detect him sitting right under its nose.

Telepathy (individual): Palpatine can mind fugg Vader from across the galaxy and force DE Luke to forget his name and become his apprentice, although the latter did happen on a DS nexus. Valkorion can mind fugg mando wars Revan and a few featless Sith and Jedi with prep and a dark side nexus, but he cannot do so to the Outlander.

Foresight: Palpatine is able to foresee and concoct elaborate plans throughout both the PT and OT, outmaneuver the most powerful Jedi Order in history, divine Anakin's fears and premonitions, etc. Valkorion was tricked by Revan into fearing a ravaged Republic with no army and virtually no Jedi Order.

Combat: see above. It's Palpatine and it's not even close.

Sorcery and rituals: This is typically Valkorion's strong suit, and he can point to Nathema, Ziost and some other impressive demonstrations of his abilities. Granted, Sidious didn't have several thousand gullible sith lords to work with, but it is still a point in Valkorion's favor. Palpatine strikes back with his cloaking himself from and shrouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order, and possibly the most impressive application in the mythos, wrestling with the Force and knocking it out of balance with the aid of Plagueis. He also claims in the Plagueis novel to also be able to manipulate midichlorians like his master, although apparently not to the same extent. Vitiate does have his galaxy-consuming ritual that would probably be the most impressive feat in all of Star Wars, but he never actually does it, so I'm going to remain skeptical. I'd say that they've shown different strengths in this category, although most of Vitiate's come from having the opportunity and more Sith to take advantage of, whereas Palpatine's are done under more or less his own exertion.

Immortality: Vitiate has a longer natural lifespan, although he accomplished this due to having lots of Sith lackeys that Sidious lacked. He is also more powerful in his spirit form, and can exist and act in multiple places at once, which Sidious can't. He might have an advantage here, but thanks to rituals that require large concentrations of gullible Force users.



Just through tabulating the number of people they affected, it's probably Valkorion, given that he ruled around a quarter of the galaxy for 1300 years and then affects the entire galaxy for like 100. Palpatine's Empire was far more massive, but existed for a fraction of the time, and Valkorion having lived longer ago benefits from this metric through butterfly effects on progeny, etc. If we look from the perspective of, say, 1000 years after ANH, Palpatine would have probably exceeded him.

In terms of impact on the Force, it's clearly Palpatine, given that he knocks it off-balance and forces the creation of the Skywalker family line.

In terms of political impact, Palpatine overthrew a Galactic Republic and Jedi Order that had existed more less continuously for 25,000 years. Valkorion failed.

In terms of impressiveness, taking that leap from controlling a quarter-half of the galaxy to controlling all of it and exterminating the Jedi Order is far more impressive than tricking some Sith Lords and then hiding in the outer rim for 1300 years before waging war and failing. And Palpatine does this all in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the help, against far more powerful enemies including the creation of the Force itself and his progeny.

^^

@Darth Sexy

You are obviously too stupid to do anything but assume that chronological lifespan is the most valid indicator of how successful something is. Apparently, you think that homo erectus was more "successful" than homo sapiens because it had existed longer, and that some random 97 year old should be referenced just as frequently in history books as Abe Lincoln. Valkorion's empire lasted longer because they were hiding from the Republic in the outer rim. Palpatine's empire is more impressive because it's harder to eradicate the Jedi Order and the Republic, and then to basically crush everyone until the child of a literal in-universe deus ex machina created by the Force comes of age.

As for building an empire from scratch, what opposition did Vitiate actually face in doing this? Weakling, no-name sith lords? A Republic not aware of its existence? Again, you think that it's just a matter of counting the seconds. Palpatine had to build his empire against powerful opposition; Vitiate just needed to work for a long time. That means very little.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
^^

Your love titillates me, Beni.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

1: Valkorion. While Sidious has a wider range of more destructive powers, they can only be unleashed outside combat, and are not relevant in this situation. Force Wormhole is one that would be effective if he had the chance to use it, however, while he is stated to be able to use it on a whim, he's only shown to be able to use it in that regard for teleportation uses, and cannot use an offensive variation without killing himself, nor leaving himself open for Valkorion to kill him in the time it takes to create it. I 100% believe that Sheev is more than capable of winning at melee range, but once within range to strike with his lightsabers, Valkorion can easily teleport away. I find that Valkorion's ability to call upon his Force powers faster than Sheev gives him a large edge, one larger than Sheev's physical speed advantage; not to mention Valky's superior sorceries and arcane-like powers that Sidious requires prolonged meditation to achieve give him a large advantage here as well. Now as far as a fight would go, I see Valky opening with FL, which Sheev can definitely defend against, however, the speed and potency of the attack could catch him slightly by surprise, putting him on a desperate defensive from the start, giving Valkorion a chance to send a wave of TK to knock Palpatine off his feet. Sheev would recover from this quickly, probably cackle, and unleash his own lightning at Valkorion, who would defend against it with little difficulty. It's at this point I can see Palpatine rushing forward and activating his lightsaber to begin a melee attack. His speed would carry him about half the distance between them before Valkorion responded with a blast lightning or TK, perhaps even a Force Storm (not wormhole) or Dearh Field. Regardless of what his response is, it would slow down Sheev's advance, perhaps even force him to stop and defend himself, regardless giving himself more time to build his power for a stronger attack. Once the assault ends, Palpy would continue rushing and enviably reach Valkorion and strike at him, however, Valkorion, knowing that he can't cope with the sheer speed of Palpy's attack, would teleport away and prepare a more powerful attack. At this moment Sheev'd be pretty annoyed and use Force Wormhole, or at least prepare it, giving Valky a chance to unleash his full power in one attack that Sidious'd be too preoccupied to defend against, and die. That's how I perceive the fight going.

2: I believe that Valkorion is more powerful overall, but I've seen more impressive things from Sheev that he performed out of combat (sans the Ziosf destruction). That one event trumps everything Sheev did, however, Sheev has easier access to very distractive powers. I'm pretty torn, but I'd give slight majority to Vity still.

3. Sidious for sure. This shouldn't need an explanation.

Darth Sexy isn't smart enough to break it down this way, but the "who is more impressive" debate essentially breaks into comparing peaks with longevity. Valkorion did last longer, but he failed in overthrowing the Republic and eradicating the Jedi (yes, his ultimate goal was something else - but he failed in that too!). Palpatine, meanwhile, succeeded.

Usually we care about longevity because it demonstrates a level of consistency and stability against a multitude of threats and challenges. Having 15 minutes of fame can be attributed to a fluke; ruling for 1400 years cannot be. But there isn't much marginal return for Valkorion's reign length over Palpatine's here. Palpatine ruled long enough against a large enough variety of opponents that his success cannot be attributed to a fluke - indeed, what matters more is not chronological time, but the fact that he faced more potent and varied enemies than Valkorion did, and beat all of them until Luke.

For most of Vitiate's rule, meanwhile, he just takes advantage of inertia. Why should we care that he ruled for 1000 instead of 200 years, when he basically just did the same thing and maintained an empire? Sure, he faced a few rebellious dark councils, but none of them would have intimidated Palpatine or posed any serious threat to either contestant here. He just did the same thing over and over again. When he actually tried to expand to the rest of the galaxy, he lost. Like, if a table can hold up a book for twenty minutes, we aren't that impressed that it can also do it for a month.

Simply put, Sidious's flame burned much brighter than Vitiate's, and that impresses me more.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I 100% believe that Sheev is more than capable of winning at melee range, but once within range to strike with his lightsabers, Valkorion can easily teleport away.


Has he ever teleported in a body?

During his fight with HoT he teleported and left a Force clone/illusion of himself to fight iirc

Pretty substantive analyses from Tond. and especially Ellimist, with very little consensus.

Round 1: 1-1
Round 2: 1-1
Round 3: 2-0

Stalemate in combat, Sidious in everything else. You happy Temp?

@Tempest, as you seem to be really into Palpatine, I suggest you read this essay on him, it's written by a guy who's almost as smart as me.

I hadn't considered teleportation, although the Hero was able to overcome it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Stalemate in combat, Sidious in everything else. You happy Temp?

Happy? I'm far too objective to have any sort of bias on these matters. uhuh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Tempest, as you seem to be really into Palpatine, I suggest you read this essay on him, it's written by a guy who's almost as smart as me.

I've read it. The man is clearly a genius.

1. Coin toss
2. Sidious
3. Valkorion, simply by the scale he works on with his convoluted and millennia long plans, though at least Palpatine's make sense.

^ how does Sidious win 2 and not 1?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ how does Sidious win 2 and not 1?
Valkorion has comparative/slightly better combative feats, but Sidious can tear apart reality if given enough time. It's really a no brainer, for now anyway.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Valkorion has comparative/slightly better combative feats

Does he really? I think beating Yoda and crushing pre-vaapad Windu + the B team is more impressive than overwhelming featless strike teams and killing losers like Darth Marr.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does he really? I think beating Yoda and crushing pre-vaapad Windu + the B team is more impressive than overwhelming featless strike teams and killing losers like Darth Marr.
Eh, Sidious obviously had the enviroment in his favor when he faced Yoda, I'm not too impressed with how he handled Luke either. Valkorion's ability to deal with Arcann, especially the second time when he was weakened, was fairly impressive, as well as his handling of Revan, two Dark Councils, and those strike teams which weren't all terrible, even if half of it was. It's not something I could never see Sidious doing, it's just something I've never seen from him.

If you take the TFU endings and shit as legit representations of power, then one shotting Galen with lightning and bringing Vader to his knees with lightning are possibly just as impressive. Though clobbering Revan's tutaminis 300 years before KOTFE, (while his power is described as, "ever increasing" is probably more impressive than both. The handlings of Arcann were also immensely impressive.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eh, Sidious obviously had the enviroment in his favor when he faced Yoda,

Perhaps, although it's a tough sell to compare to a guy who uses nexuses for everything. And the RotS novel and a variety of other sources make it clear that Yoda was struggling regardless.



In Dark Empire? Luke at that point was far more powerful than anyone Valkorion's ever defeated, and he still only beat Palpatine with Leia's Force harmony.



Arcann has done little to put himself on Windu + the B-team's level.



To the contrary, Revan knocks him on his ass. Vitiate needs to charge lightning to overwhelm him; Sidious does not to push Yoda's defenses to their limit. Vitiate then gets disarmed and nearly killed by Meetra's saber throw. It was a pretty sh*tty showing tbh.

I don't see how it's as impressive as Sidious handling Yoda and the B team.



He uses an ability that he conveniently never replicates. It smacks suspiciously of prep/ritual+nexus to me.



I think Windu + the B-team has more feats than any strike team Vitiate/Valkorion has faced, and Sidious would've crushed them had Windu not put up a peak performance.

Valkorion's whole game plan is to be so much more powerful than his enemies that he just kills them outright. Against someone strong enough to challenge him and force a melee, he really doesn't have much going for him (except for teleportation which I admit I hadn't considered).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
If you take the TFU endings and shit as legit representations of power, then one shotting Galen with lightning and bringing Vader to his knees with lightning are possibly just as impressive.

Best dominating non-Anchorite performance in the mythos, perhaps next to Luke pinning Caedus.



Starkiller's feats >>> Revan 2.0's, and Sidious doesn't need to charge his attack.



Are they? What has Arcann done exactly? Windu has much better feats, and before vaapad he can't do shit to Sidious even with three Jedi at his side.

Or blocking the saber with his bare hands casually.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Or blocking the saber with his bare hands casually.

It seems more like he just stops Arcann's blows telekinetically (the barrier repels him). Regardless, that's nothing Satele couldn't do, albeit with more difficulty.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Perhaps, although it's a tough sell to compare to a guy who uses nexuses for everything. And the RotS novel and a variety of other sources make it clear that Yoda was struggling regardless.

The only people he fights on nexus can use them also, so eh.

Eeeeeeeeh, and Leia wasn't using Force Harmony then, just unclouding Luke's mind. Though it does say she helped him use his potential more, before that Luke's stated to be on par with Obi-Wan.

I beg to differ. Slaughtering his way through the scions, blocking Valkorion's lightning, overwhelming the HoT, and surviving several pieces of structure falling on him, as well as a the height he fell from Asylum's control tower with only so much as a few bruises is as impressive as the team that was blitzed and the Windu that is on par with Dooku and is implied to have been allowed to win.

By that same token, Revan needed to wait until Vitiate was focusing his TP on him to knock him down, and can't handle his Lightning.

No, he just needs to do it a ton of times, which frankly has the same effect.

Yeah, because you can compare someone at their best to when they aren't paying attention at all.

Except he does it twice and we see how impressive his Lightning can be? It's really not in question that he can one shot a Dark Council.

Yeah, having more feats doesn't make you more impressive. They kind of need to match up, and the vast majority of the B-Team doesn't exactly match up to the HoT or Braga.

Thing is, it's implied Sidious would have crushed Windu regardless, so while it's not a bad showing for Sidious, using the B-Team as a bench mark falls flat.

While that's true, Valkorion also relies mainly on keeping the fight at a distance and overwhelming defenses when you get in to close. It's not like he can't just block Sidious' lightsaber and overwhelm him when he's not far enough away to prepare properly. That being said, Sidious obviously has the power to go toe-to-toe with him, which is why I said I don't know who'd win head to head.

Valkoriate's two purges of the Dark Council really don't lend themselves well to a combat consideration, since they occurred under unknown circumstances, but more in terms of general power and mastery.

He has the reaction time to do it in a combative situation. The Dark Council feats are mostly impressive by sheer numbers than by how great the Counselors are.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He has the reaction time to do it in a combative situation. The Dark Council feats are mostly impressive by sheer numbers than by how great the Counselors are.

The question is whether or not he could bring that same kind of power to bear in a fight without prep and a nexus. IIRC, the Encyclopedia says the first purge occurred "in a flash of light" on the steps of the Dark Temple.

Yes, but we see a superior showing of power off nexus with Asylum, and there's really no chance he would have been able to prep that, so there's really no reason to doubt it.

I'm on my phone

They both beat Bane

Come to think of it, could Valkorion even inflict meaningful injury on a prepared Sidious? The energy Starkiller detonated in Sheev's face destroyed the Emperor's observation dome, caused enough damage on the Death Star to be visible kilometers away, and the Emperor more or less brushed it off.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes, but we see a superior showing of power off nexus with Asylum, and there's really no chance he would have been able to prep that, so there's really no reason to doubt it.

Asylum? Which one is that again?

The from-space view of that explosion is hilariously out of proportion with the close-up.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Asylum? Which one is that again?
A random backwater that outcasts go to.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The from-space view of that explosion is hilariously out of proportion with the close-up.

No doubt.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/tfu%20starkiller%20explosion_zpssh0qsxdy.png

Still a lot of energy though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Or blocking the saber with his bare hands casually. Which Kylo Ren replicated while exhausted, emotionally conflicted, and shot up. Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still a lot of energy though. It was the most powerful attack Marek ever unleashed, potentially.

True 'dat, Beni.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Round 1: 2-1
Round 2: 4-1
Round 3: 4-1

Updated score to include Skillz, 'Strap, Beni.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The point of the movement is to kill you, Tempest

what mmm

Killing you will make the TOR Brigade legendary, and while I do not like being under the same brand as LeGenD and Neph, that is a worthy goal. Claiming this forum is also a side benefit.

Don't worry, Valkorion will go the way of Bane soon enough. It'll take longer though, his followers are nothing like we've ever seen before.

Tempest and Carthage, do this.

Kinda hard to kill Tempest when Sidious is still the GOAT

dammit, Beni's post was deleted

Well it really doesn't matter how weak or unskilled Kylo and Rey are compared with Arcann for your point to be valid. If anything, it's proof enough that Valkorion's ability to TK lightsaber blows isn't remarkable in the grand scheme of things if a talented neophyte like Ren is capable of doing it.

I'm not allowed to talk to Beefy anymore.

Anyway, I would just like to make the general point that when Kanan experienced Oneness, he one-shotted Maul, which should give a good idea of how powerful Rey was at that point.

EDIT: Yeah, but I would say the strength behind the swing is important. But altogether I agree. Whether or not Rey was the weaker opponent, Sidious is vastly more powerful than Ren.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Killing you will make the TOR Brigade legendary, and while I do not like being under the same brand as LeGenD and Neph, that is a worthy goal. Claiming this forum is also a side benefit.

I am but the Galactic Emperor's prophet.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Kinda hard to kill Tempest when Sidious is still the GOAT
It's only difficult because one of us is a filthy traitor. I'll give you a hint: It's not me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not allowed to talk to Beefy anymore.

Anyway, I would just like to make the general point that when Kanan experienced Oneness, he one-shotted Maul, which should give a good idea of how powerful Rey was at that point.

EDIT: Yeah, but I would say the strength behind the swing is important. But altogether I agree. Whether or not Rey was the weaker opponent, Sidious is vastly more powerful than Ren.

TK is orders of magnitude more powerful than any physical blow, perhaps Anakin Skywalker aside. Arcann is unquestionably stronger and more skilled than n3wbs like Rey and Kylo, but not strong enough that physical strength in that situation would be relevant.

@Fresh: The Emperor studied the force in all its guises, which would include the Zakuulan side of the force

Originally posted by The_Tempest
TK is orders of magnitude more powerful than any physical blow, perhaps Anakin Skywalker aside. Arcann is unquestionably stronger and more skilled than n3wbs like Rey and Kylo, but not strong enough that physical strength in that situation would be relevant. Yeah probably.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@Fresh: The Emperor studied the force in all its guises, which would include the Zakuulan side of the force

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@Fresh: The Emperor studied the force in all its guises, which would include the Zakuulan side of the force
There is no Zakuulian side.

Sure, but there's a difference in regards to force aptitude/force/mental barriers when you have Rey attacking Ren and Arcann attacking Valkorion, unless you believe it's as simple as swinging a lightsaber at someone.

Valky needs to hold his hand out to block Arcann's attacks, so he probably can't last very long against the speed and ferocity of Palpatine's.

What does effortlessly blocking Arcann's attacks have to do with dealing with Palpatine's ferocity? He'd actually have to fight Palpatine.

Tbh TFU really cemented Vader + Palpatine's status. It's the only source material to rival OCW levels of wank, except for maybe late NR - FotJ Luke.

One thing Valkorion really does have going for him is the immense power he retains as a spirit.

Well, unless you consider the circumstances regarding each. Each time Valkorion has had a lot of advantages Palpatine did not. mmm

The advantage of the Outlander's shit body that was being poisoned that he had to keep alive constantly for five years?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Round one:

With both characters at their peak, who would win in a 1v1 battle? Assume the contest takes place in the empty Geonosian arena as depicted in Episode II, a neutral environment.

It's hard to say. Much like the Talzin fight, because of the nature of these two's power, it's very likely that Sidious' physical and martial superiority wouldn't even come into play after the first clash. On top of that, a lot of his larger-scale powers like the Force Storm probably aren't viable; summoning something like that here would put him in as much danger as his opponent.

On the flip side, the fact that his martial skills aren't viable doesn't change that he should be a more skilled combatant. Valkorion is a mostly self-trained scholar who was so overwhelmingly powerful in his era that no one could ever challenge him. Sidious is a Banite Sith Lord who was trained in the art of killing and has had competition to test his skills against in the form of Yoda and Plagueis. I think this could potentially give him an edge, even if Valkorion possesses more raw power.

Either way, both are so incredibly powerful and incredibly knowledgeable that it's difficult to predict exactly how this would go down. The odds are that neither of them will actually be able to permanently kill the other's spirit anyway though, so I guess if Palpatine did wind up on the losing end, he could summon a Force Storm and pettily destroy them both. I'll side with him.



It's close, but I'm siding with Palpatine here. As I mentioned above, I toy with the idea that Valkorion might have more "might" as you put it, but the scale that Palpatine generally operates on is simply bigger regardless.

It's not necessarily that Valkorion is less masterful or knowledgeable; he's had a millennium to learn and master esoteric powers, and I'm sure he knows things that Palpatine doesn't, and vice versa.

However, from shifting the balance of the force to his galaxy-spanning battle meditation, it's hard not to give Palpatine the edge at this point. He's done that and virtually everything Valkorion's done, just more subtly and efficiently, which in of itself is a point in his favor honestly.

I will say that Valkorion does have one very important thing on Palpatine right now, though; the fact that he (supposedly) no longer needs a host to prosper. If what he said in Chapter II is true, that's a pretty damn major point for him.



Well, obviously Sidious is infinitely more important from an out-of-universe perspective.

From an in-universe perspective, though? It's harder to say; we haven't seen the state of the galaxy 3,000 years after Palpatine's fall, so we can't outline the impacts or lack of thereof that remain. It's worth pointing out that as a thousand-year-old being, Valkorion has influenced and affected more galactic events than Sidious has personally, I guess. At the same time, Palpatine's dominion over the galaxy was (from what we currently know) more impressive and long-lived than Valkorion's, as we were still seeing the Imperial faction as far forward as Legacy. Then again we don't know anything about the fate of Zakuul, so these facts are far form set in stone. Answering this question will be much easier once KOTFE is over, but for now I get the impression that Emperor Palpatine was the more precedent historical figure of the two.

---

TL;DR:

1. Sidious
2. Sidious
3. Sidious

...Maybe. Probably. More or less.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The advantage of the Outlander's shit body that was being poisoned that he had to keep alive constantly for five years? Poisoned or not, it was still a vessel he could anchor himself to upon dying, when it was perfectly healthy. Much less than what Palpatine had.

And then there is Zakuul, a planet strong in the Force.

The Outlander was dying, and Valkorion is now weaker. That's a prime vessel right thur.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Poisoned or not, it was still a vessel he could anchor himself to upon dying, when it was perfectly healthy. Much less than what Palpatine had.

And then there is Zakuul, a planet strong in the Force.

And right, prolly cause he no longer possesses a sufficient vessel/body to sustain himself.

It's a shit vessel, Beni. And Palpatine obviously doesn't like shit vessels, or he'd possess one of the many bodies there. And it wasn't perfectly healthy because it had an explosion in its face that was followed by being poisoned for five years. And obviously Zakuul isn't strong enough in the Force to stop poison, so meh.

Pretty much agreed with NewGuy.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a shit vessel, Beni. And Palpatine obviously doesn't like shit vessels, or he'd possess one of the many bodies there. And it wasn't perfectly healthy because it had an explosion in its face that was followed by being poisoned for five years. And obviously Zakuul isn't strong enough in the Force to stop poison, so meh. Right, so Valkorion just decided to stick to this "shit vessel" like glue for 5 years while his Empire got ****ed over... for fun?

Lmao, evidently his body isn't as crappy as you believe, consdering even with carbonite poisoning the Outlander remains one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, funny how all that wank you've ascribed him till now has melted away.

And what many bodies? Regardless you're wrong since considering Palpatine survived by possessing one of his hands.

Obviously any anchor is a good anchor when faced with the threat of the bodiless void. And the Outlander was far better than most.

And cool, neither was Valkorion. So either that poisioning was really bad, Valkorion is crappy in general, or he was holding something back. Take your pick.

I'm sorry, you're looking for sense in KotFE? Well, sorry to disappoint you; you want find any. It'll probably be revealed next season that Valkorion is your real father, because why not. It certainly looks like they teased with the idea.

Kek, that's because the Eternal Empire killed everyone else.

I'm sure he could have picked any random near him when he died if Palpatine is body hoping. Apparently the Smuggler is good enough for Valkorion.

If you just jump on the idea of the Outlander being the HoT while ignoring they can be anyone, sure.

Have you played KotFE yet, Beni? I'm starting to think you haven't, and know you haven't 12. All will become clear in time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sheev is canon Palpatine who probably loses. Assuming Legends:



Palpatine crushes him. If the two are comparable, or if Valky is marginally superior in the Force, Vitiate won't be able to kill Palpatine before he forces a melee, and then Valkorion obviously gets sliced and diced. His only hope of victory is to win really, really quickly, and that's only possible if he substantially outclasses Palpatine in the Force.

He doesn't, though; the reverse is closer to being true. Palpatine outmatches his greatest destructive feat (Force storms are more destructive than Ziost, and done without prep, a ritual or nexus), exceeds him in telepathy (dominating Luke and Vader >> not being able to dominate Scourge or the Outlander), exceeds him in telekinesis (muses that he can destroy the kilometers long imperial palace, is far more powerful than Vader+Starkiller, both of which have feats on the level of manipulating and destroying capital ships vs. destroying a random temple on a nexus), exceeds him in Force lightning (overloading Yoda's tutanimus >>> killing Darth Marr and random weaklings) and vastly exceeds him in Force speed (blitzing three celebrated Jedi masters + pre-vaapad Windu). Valkorion's only potential advantages come with rituals and sorcery that are useless in a one vs. one confrontation.

Sidious is also a more experienced and capable combatant, having trained with Plagueis by fighting and deflecting fire from hundreds of battle droids decades before his prime, while the Revan novel shows us how awful in actual confrontations Valkorion is whenever he actually has to fight someone.

Sidious is more powerful in the Force, and even if he weren't, he'd still win by virtue of being much faster and deadlier.




Palpatine, and it's only marginally closer than round 1.

Destruction: Palpatine's Force storms threatened to "consume all of space". Even if you dismiss that quote as outlandish, they still demonstrate a far greater destructive ability than anything Vitiate has ever done, and can be performed without a ritual or nexus.

Telepathy (large scale): Valkorion does have impressive feats in this category, but once again, most of them are done on a nexus or via rituals, and Palpatine matches them with Byss. Palpatine needs neither to remove a specific memory from the minds of trillions of witnesses. He also manages to shroud the Force abilities of the Jedi Order at its peak, to the point where it couldn't detect him sitting right under its nose.

Telepathy (individual): Palpatine can mind fugg Vader from across the galaxy and force DE Luke to forget his name and become his apprentice, although the latter did happen on a DS nexus. Valkorion can mind fugg mando wars Revan and a few featless Sith and Jedi with prep and a dark side nexus, but he cannot do so to the Outlander.

Foresight: Palpatine is able to foresee and concoct elaborate plans throughout both the PT and OT, outmaneuver the most powerful Jedi Order in history, divine Anakin's fears and premonitions, etc. Valkorion was tricked by Revan into fearing a ravaged Republic with no army and virtually no Jedi Order.

Combat: see above. It's Palpatine and it's not even close.

Sorcery and rituals: This is typically Valkorion's strong suit, and he can point to Nathema, Ziost and some other impressive demonstrations of his abilities. Granted, Sidious didn't have several thousand gullible sith lords to work with, but it is still a point in Valkorion's favor. Palpatine strikes back with his cloaking himself from and shrouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order, and possibly the most impressive application in the mythos, wrestling with the Force and knocking it out of balance with the aid of Plagueis. He also claims in the Plagueis novel to also be able to manipulate midichlorians like his master, although apparently not to the same extent. Vitiate does have his galaxy-consuming ritual that would probably be the most impressive feat in all of Star Wars, but he never actually does it, so I'm going to remain skeptical. I'd say that they've shown different strengths in this category, although most of Vitiate's come from having the opportunity and more Sith to take advantage of, whereas Palpatine's are done under more or less his own exertion.

Immortality: Vitiate has a longer natural lifespan, although he accomplished this due to having lots of Sith lackeys that Sidious lacked. He is also more powerful in his spirit form, and can exist and act in multiple places at once, which Sidious can't. He might have an advantage here, but thanks to rituals that require large concentrations of gullible Force users.



Just through tabulating the number of people they affected, it's probably Valkorion, given that he ruled around a quarter of the galaxy for 1300 years and then affects the entire galaxy for like 100. Palpatine's Empire was far more massive, but existed for a fraction of the time, and Valkorion having lived longer ago benefits from this metric through butterfly effects on progeny, etc. If we look from the perspective of, say, 1000 years after ANH, Palpatine would have probably exceeded him.

In terms of impact on the Force, it's clearly Palpatine, given that he knocks it off-balance and forces the creation of the Skywalker family line.

In terms of political impact, Palpatine overthrew a Galactic Republic and Jedi Order that had existed more less continuously for 25,000 years. Valkorion failed.

In terms of impressiveness, taking that leap from controlling a quarter-half of the galaxy to controlling all of it and exterminating the Jedi Order is far more impressive than tricking some Sith Lords and then hiding in the outer rim for 1300 years before waging war and failing. And Palpatine does this all in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the help, against far more powerful enemies including the creation of the Force itself and his progeny.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eeeeeeeeh, and Leia wasn't using Force Harmony then, just unclouding Luke's mind. Though it does say she helped him use his potential more, before that Luke's stated to be on par with Obi-Wan.


Luke was just being humble - his feats and third-party accolades put him above Obi Wan by RotJ. But yeah, Luke was using an unknown amount of his potential, so we can't really compare this defeat to how well Valkorion would have done.




The circular argument with Valky's lightning aside (which is actually a point against Valkorion), none of these feats compare with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo

Not to mention inventing the deadliest lightsaber form, pushing an AT-TE off a cliff, etc.

Even with backup this guy couldn't do shit do Sidious for the first several seconds of their duel.



Anakin humiliates this feat as a padawan...



The throwing-the-fight notion seems to be unsupported by Lucas's commentary; you could make the case that he feigned weakness with his Force lightning, but he legitimately lost the duel.

(and you know that would actually be a point in Sidious's favor...)

Windu and the entire B-team are likely a more formidable foe than Arcann by feats, accolades, and pretty much everything. I'm not seeing anything to suggest otherwise.



How is it an impressive feat to be strong enough to not be ragdolled by Revan without being distracted?

Revan can't handle his charged lightning. He was able to knock his uncharged lightning on his ass. Yoda is just powerful enough to survive Sidious's uncharged lightning; I think the latter puts a higher ceiling on Palpatine's power.



Uh, no? He clearly knocks Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand and comes really close to overwhelming him with it. This is a lot more impressive than needing several seconds to charge an attack against Revan.



Well that's my point - Vitiate is a shit tactician who doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings because everyone he fights are weaklings next to him.



Then why doesn't he just do this to everyone? It just happens to be that he does this with prep in his fortress, and nowhere else.




But Windu does. Sidious overwhelms pre-vaapad Windu and the B-team. The B-team has better feats than HoT and Braga's allies, and Windu has better feats than early-game HoT/Braga. Ergo, Sidious's feat is more impressive.



I don't understand this sentence, and I'm too lazy to go back to the context - I can just say that I'm more impressed with Sidious's blitzing the B-team than Vitiate not being able to do so to Scourge and Meetra, and I'm more impressed with Sidious being able to overwhelm Yoda than Vitiate having his lightning knocked back at him by Revan.



I highly doubt that Valkorion can block Sidious's attacks just because he can block Arcann's.

@ NewGuy

While I agree with the majority of your post, I have to point out one thing;
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The odds are that neither of them will actually be able to permanently kill the other's spirit anyway
I think Valkorion may have a significant advantage here. Let's say after destroying each other's bodies, they remain as incorporeal entities. Now, while Sidious cannot unleash powerful attacks that can do lethal damage to Valkorion's spirit, Valkorion can unless planetary scale attacks that kill anything they touch. The most important aspect of that attack is that it consumes the force energies of its targets, and Sidious being a force spirit would be exposed to the attack. So, while Sidious can't kill Valkorion's spirit, Valkorion can drain Sidious' spirit. I mean, unless Sidious leaves the planet before Vitiate unleashes an attack, but that would mean Sidious forfeits. I don't know if there is flaw in this scenario, but I think this is how it might go down due to Valky's ability to operate a lot more freely as a spirit.

...Says who? Just because someone can't affect the material plane doesn't mean that they can't effect the corporeal plane, just like vice versa.



And I still call into question whether or not Valkorion did this entirely without a host; after all, he supposedly had a huge chunk of the planetary population under his control when the feat was performed.



Doubt it. In the Inquisitor storyline it's stated numerous times that in the TOR era there are no known teachings that allow Sith to devour souls, despite drain related techniques being commonplace. You could make the argument that Vitiate knows Hord's lost arts and just hid them from everybody else, but that argument would have no basis.

Sheev

What a bunch of sheev fangirls. Lowbawling Valkorion's feats and accomplishments is the only tactic you all have.

Respect for Sinious though. He loves Palpatine but he is also objective.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Don't worry, Valkorion will go the way of Bane soon enough. It'll take longer though, his followers are nothing like we've ever seen before.

Tempest and Carthage, do this.
You do that.

I'll respond in kind for Sheev.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What a bunch of sheev fangirls. Lowbawling Valkorion's feats and accomplishments is the only tactic you all have.

Respect for Sinious though. He loves Palpatine but he is also objective. You sound mad.

Objective means agreeing with his take on it. Everybody else is a fangirl.

Irony being he's the only one whose resorted to petty name calling.

He was called a fanboy before, and he brushed it off. But obviously when it comes to supporting Palpatine, it's a crime. Frankly, what Elliminist and so on have done is only a reflection of some of the things that have been posted by Vitiate supporters in the past, but apparently that was alright.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Or blocking the saber with his bare hands casually.

Kylo Ren tier confirmed.

Palpatine's exaggerations disgust me. Consider me disgusted. Prepare for Khan.

He says after Ziost, everything changed for him. He "passed beyond death's reach" and no longer requires vessels. So, you may be right, but since this is post-Ziost Valky, I'm not sure how that is relevant.
This, imo, depends on how the Ziost attack targets the force energy on the surface of the planet. I mean, depends on how much less force consuming it is compared to Natemha, if any.

Originally posted by Sinious
He says after Ziost, everything changed for him. He "passed beyond death's reach" and no longer requires vessels. So, you may be right, but since this is post-Ziost Valky, I'm not sure how that is relevant.

That doesn't prove that he doesn't need a host to unleash his full power on the material realm, that proves that he doesn't need a host to survive. He's "finally free", as he put it.

Although, that's still an extremely important accomplishment when you consider Palpatine, who can't survive indefinitely without a host. Assuming it's completely true to begin with, of course.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He was called a fanboy before, and he brushed it off. But obviously when it comes to supporting Palpatine, it's a crime. Frankly, what Elliminist and so on have done is only a reflection of some of the things that have been posted by Vitiate supporters in the past, but apparently that was alright.
Palpatine is one of my favorite Star Wars based characters as well. I don't feel the need to elaborate his greatness and abilities in a discussion when such facts are largely well-known to the masses and there are legions of fans to maintain his hype.

It is the characters like Valkorion that are in need of better recognition. He is one of the few characters who can tackle the likes of Palpatine and Luke Skywalker head-on in a confrontation and also matches the latter's accomplishments. Unfortunately, I don't see acknowledgement of these assessments by a number of fans here even after years of hard work.

Among the fans of Palpatine, I find Sinious and Tondemonai most objective. In-fact, even EmperorSidious2 is improving; his views surprise me often but he still have a long way to go. The rest are a bunch of blind Palpatine fangirls who harbor unrealistic perceptions of Palpatine's capabilities and the list includes you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That doesn't prove that he doesn't need a host to unleash his full power on the material realm, that proves that he doesn't need a host to survive. He's "finally free", as he put it.

And fair point, though I'm not sure. There is no single mention of him needing a host on Ziost (when there are mentions of other details of his condition and what he requires to pull it off), and he seems to be capable of unleashing attacks like lightning as a spirit. Not to mention, what he can and cannot do on Ziost still don't represent his capabilities as a spirit since he has the boost of Ziost now and is more powerful overall. More importantly, he doesn't have to unleash a death field as powerful as the one on Ziost. Why wouldn't he be able to just take out the arena and everything inside where Sidious's spirit will be?

Wouldn't that also make Valkorion the winner every round?

SWL beginning to snap under the strain of championing a doomed cause tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
Wouldn't that also make Valkorion the winner every round?

Not necessarily. If Sidious managed to destroy Valkorion's host--and if I'm correct about them not being able to fight without one--then Valkorion would have to retreat and Sidious would be the victor. The same goes for vice-versa; I strongly suspect neither would be able to permanently put down the other without significant prep.

Although, if the loser tries to possess the victor and loses the battle of wills? I wonder if that's a possible resolution.

I assume that you mean Vitiate won't be able to defeat Palpatine if he loses his body since he'll be weaker when you say "not being able to fight without one" and that's why he'd have to flee?

And yeah, I'm not sure if you're right tbh. Like I said we have other info on this but nothing stating that he needed a host to kill Ziost, and he got quite more powerful after Ziost compared to the shape he was in during RotE + he can unleash other attacks like lightning storms just fine. A critical detail would be that he can probably perform some force powers better as a spirit like flow-walking. A unique force draining attack like the one we saw on Ziost strikes me more as a force power like fwalking than powers like TK or lightning (not that he can't use those as well).

He seems to have emancipated himself from the restraints of vessels to a significant extend, not just being able to exist without a host. I'm not sure why he'd fail to unleash an attack that can consume the force energies within the arena.

Lost me at ES2 is improving.

> thought HoT had 50/50 odds with FotJ Luke
> thinks Vitiate can take on The Father
> brags about his brilliance and objectivity

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eh, Sidious obviously had the enviroment in his favor when he faced Yoda, I'm not too impressed with how he handled Luke either. Valkorion's ability to deal with Arcann, especially the second time when he was weakened, was fairly impressive, as well as his handling of Revan, two Dark Councils, and those strike teams which weren't all terrible, even if half of it was. It's not something I could never see Sidious doing, it's just something I've never seen from him.


In which sequence did Sidious have the environmental advantage? If anything, such limited area did not go well with Sidious acrobatic and aggressive fighting style. If you're referring to the lightning sequence at the end, yes it did favor Sidious; but let's say the exchange happened on neutral ground, if we take the novels take on it in regards to Yoda reaching his absorption limit, what's to say he'd be able to keep going once they both got back on their feet?

As for Luke, Sidious floored him with lightning then forced a saber duel on him. Meanwhile, Leia was unknowingly using battle meditation to guide Luke which obviously aided him in his victory. Sidious then proceeded to devour the republic fleet, intending to destroy the entire moon as a taunting display of his power. At no point did Sidious fully unleash himself on Luke. Actually The Emperor was defeated by his own arrogance rather than a true power-to-power competition, which basically was the writers way to express just how powerful Palpatine was. I don't think it was a low showing at all.

HES BACK

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
HES BACK


Aww, I sense excitement and love.

You did miss me, right?

I sensed a disturbance in my pants. The prodigal son has returned.

***

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I sensed a disturbance in my pants. The prodigal son has returned.


Lol.

How ya been? Palpatine still reigns supreme here right?

hashtagwhoissnoke

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

How ya been? Palpatine still reigns supreme here right?


We need your assistance.

TOR wank needs to be crushed without mercy, in the same way Bane-wank was. There are a few holdouts (SWL, Neph mainly) stubbornly clinging to life.

Sheev really doesn't need assistance. Tempest proved that Sidious can remain GOAT even with Board Walker tier arguments.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We need your assistance.

TOR wank needs to be crushed without mercy, in the same way Bane-wank was. There are a few holdouts (SWL, Neph mainly) stubbornly clinging to life.


Past user name?

I did miss you, admittedly. Valkorion improves in your absence though, so I'm not sure how to feel.

Just in time for Ant's return. It's beautiful.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Past user name? Its Hewhoknowsall. He's back, in douchebag form.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Just in time for Ant's return. It's beautiful.

This long, winding path is finally coming to a head. Like a penis.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I did miss you, admittedly. Valkorion improves in your absence though, so I'm not sure how to feel.


Likewise, SKILLZ.


@Neph, sounds like you and him have been going at it? I'd like to see some of it?

What are your thoughts on Valkorion, btw?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
What are your thoughts on Valkorion, btw?


IDK, I'mma have to look up his newer feats. I've seen the saber blocking and the one-shotting of whathisface and one other, but not much else. From when I left, I was putting Palpatine noticeably above him. Vitiate seems to unleash his force powers against his foes more so than Sidious does his (Vitiate puts more into his attacks/more flashy). Sidious just seems more casual like when choking Dooku or ragdolling Maul and Savage simultaneously or even pwning the hell out of SK, Vader, and peak Anakin (if you consider those fair representations of his capabilities being that they are realistic visions and alternate game ending). Then there's the fact that Palpatine has perhaps the best blitz feat in the mythos, downing top jedi masters of his era with his saber alone, something he only uses to mock his opponents with. And on top of that, unleashing reality shattering, world killing storms of energy with a mere thought, even being able to control them from distances of light years. And that's only listing some of his combat feats and raw power. That's not even naming things like putting someone like Vader on his knees with a mental attack while clear across the galaxy.

Vitiate's Ziost energy form is a little harder to judge for a versus matchup though, especially with there being some factors to consider.

Anything I should know?

Valkorion's power as a spirit >>> Sidious's.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion's power as a spirit >>> Sidious's.


Nah

Nah for real. As a spirit Valkorion oneshots the Outlander, stomps the Outlander, reks Arcann, and kills hundreds of people and creates streaking lightning storms across the sky with the outer effects of his lightning attack on Arcann. That's > Sidious spirit capabilities.

Oh, he also kills a decent sized army in less than a second.

Force storms can consume spirit energy.

Shush, don't wanna hear it. I'll slap that smile right off.

I meant Sidious as a spirit of course DE Sidious > Spirit Valk

I will always smile

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I meant Sidious as a spirit of course DE Sidious > Spirit Valk

I will always smile


Nope, Sidious's spirit opened a wormhole, which can be used as an attack, without nexus. Vitiate's spirit needed to drain a world rich with dark side energies.

Overall, Sidious > farmer boy


*slap*

You lose.

Kek, didn't Palpatine need the help of several Sith spirits to even posses a body?

Kylo Ren > Vitiate.

http://i.imgur.com/eS408qH.png





If this were Palpatine, he'd be down a hand right now.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kek, didn't Palpatine need the help of several Sith spirits to even posses a body?


Ok, you can get slapped too, just so you know.

And no, he needed help to break free from chaos after his second death.

It said after Vader and his children destroyed him. That means he needed help the first time.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It said after Vader and his children destroyed him. That means he needed help the first time.


Do you have the quote on hand? At no time did Vader and his children destroy him together. They did do it separately, which wouldn't contradict the spirits' word, just make it weird. Moreover, it's proven by a more objective source (more than one I believe) that Palpatine didn't reach chaos after his first death, since he was creating wormholes and traveling across space right after his body exploded.

Maybe the spirit is just on crack or confused.

Those sith spirits called him the greatest of all time. It stretches credulity to say that they were consciously discounting Vitiate because some later version of him said he wasn't a sith, lol.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you have the quote on hand? At no time did Vader and his children destroy him together. They did do it separately, which wouldn't contradict the spirits' word, just make it weird. Moreover, it's proven by a more objective source (more than one I believe) that Palpatine didn't reach chaos after his first death, since he was creating wormholes and traveling across space right after his body exploded.

Maybe the spirit is just on crack or confused.
"Emperor of numerous worlds... Lord Vader's throne still remains empty. Have you now come to take his place and join us? "
"No! Not that... ...Your spirits guided me back to this life when I was destroyed by Vader... and his children... My aging clone body will soon die. I need healing... Now."

Ergo, he needed help twice.

For arguments sake, let's say Palpatine's spirit did fade out during his long travel, he still opened a wormhole on his own, and never needed help to posses bodies, as he's been shown to do it on his on right on panel, which means I made a mistake: it would be his third death that I meant earlier.


Originally posted by The Ellimist
Those sith spirits called him the greatest of all time. It stretches credulity to say that they were consciously discounting Vitiate because some later version of him said he wasn't a sith, lol.


Who said that?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Emperor of numerous worlds... Lord Vader's throne still remains empty. Have you now come to take his place and join us? "
"No! Not that... ...Your spirits guided me back to this life when I was destroyed by Vader... and his children... My aging clone body will soon die. I need healing... Now."

Ergo, he needed help twice.


Eh

That's way too vague, especially in the light of more direct sources and what we know. And still has nothing to do with his ability to open a wormhole when he died.

Quotes coming soon.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Those sith spirits called him the greatest of all time. It stretches credulity to say that they were consciously discounting Vitiate because some later version of him said he wasn't a sith, lol.

The ancient sith hated Vitiate, lol.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The ancient sith hated Vitiate, lol.


Shit, do you blame them?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Eh

That's way too vague, especially in the light of more direct sources and what we know. And still has nothing to do with his ability to open a wormhole when he died.

Quotes coming soon.
it's not vague at all. Sidious is just gross. What kind of Sith Lord can't do something half backed Ragnos could do? uhuh

Not at all, Vitiate was a prick who warped their ways. Just saying that would factor into their analysis of, "sith greatness."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
IDK, I'mma have to look up his newer feats. I've seen the saber blocking and the one-shotting of whathisface and one other, but not much else. From when I left, I was putting Palpatine noticeably above him. Vitiate seems to unleash his force powers against his foes more so than Sidious does his (Vitiate puts more into his attacks/more flashy). Sidious just seems more casual like when choking Dooku or ragdolling Maul and Savage simultaneously or even pwning the hell out of SK, Vader, and peak Anakin (if you consider those fair representations of his capabilities being that they are realistic visions and alternate game ending). Then there's the fact that Palpatine has perhaps the best blitz feat in the mythos, downing top jedi masters of his era with his saber alone, something he only uses to mock his opponents with. And on top of that, unleashing reality shattering, world killing storms of energy with a mere thought, even being able to control them from distances of light years. And that's only listing some of his combat feats and raw power. That's not even naming things like putting someone like Vader on his knees with a mental attack while clear across the galaxy.

Vitiate's Ziost energy form is a little harder to judge for a versus matchup though, especially with there being some factors to consider.

Anything I should know?
Get in-touch with the latest information from following:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Force storms can consume spirit energy.
No, it affects only physical stuff.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Get in-touch with the latest information from following:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

What a brilliant advertisement.

Lol

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, it affects only physical stuff.


Tell that to Palpatine's spirit.

Also, why is Sidious more powerful than Vitiate in your honest opinion? I mean, why is it like that, huh?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Tell that to Palpatine's spirit.
When Palpatine's Force Storm consumed his own cloned body (after confrontation with Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo), Palpatine's spirit was not affected and acquired another cloned host.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, why is Sidious more powerful than Vitiate in your honest opinion? I mean, why is it like that, huh?
Valkorion > Palpatine (DE) > Vitiate (Revan), IMO.

Here is my analysis: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

HOLY SHIT welcome back Sidious66

With the exception of Tond, little has been offered against the Emperor. Is this a consensus?

Valkorion without a nexus can torture many farmers and kill powerhouses like Darth Marr. How does Palpatine compete?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
With the exception of Tond, little has been offered against the Emperor. Is this a consensus?

Obviously not.

Edit: Wait, they're both the Emperor.

Except that one is the Galactic Emperor, and the other is the Outer Rim Emperor.

Vitiate is a Double Emperor. That's more than 1. I win.

Compelling arguments are pretty lopsided in the Emperor's favor. Anyone going to defend Valky in a compelling way?

Valkorion's power is "immeasurable". Sidious's midichlorion count is less than Anakin's, so it is measurable. Valkorion is stronger.

Read my case for Vitiate > Sidious powersaling thread.

Well shit.

Valkoriate also have hype in encyclopedic medium.

Lock the thread?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624612&pagenumber=1

Looks like shit tbh.

Like I give a **** what you think. Only the Father, the Son, and the Lord Gideon can judge me.