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Three-way between ancient Sith Lords who were "compared" in the TOR Encyclopedia.

Morals off, bloodlust for all, in their own bodies and in their primes. Fight takes place on a 70 x 50 meter plateau.

I feel like Muur has the most going for him.

The simple fact is we really don't know how powerful these characters are other than Ragnos and Nadd are apparently more powerful than Sadow and Muur is apparently more powerful than Vong Krayt.

Ragnos>Nadd>Muur IMO.

Ragnos since he's constantly hyped being the strongest in the Golden age of the Sith, which Muur predates and his era should be weaker. Nadd had knowledge of the Golden Age from Sadow, and while Muur is more than likely stronger than Sadow I think those two are closer in strength than Nadd is to Sadow.

"the most powerful of the most powerful" Ragnos wins ofc

Originally posted by ares834
The simple fact is we really don't know how powerful these characters are other than Ragnos and Nadd are apparently more powerful than Sadow and Muur is apparently more powerful than Vong Krayt.

Nadd and Muur do have feats that can be used. Ragnos is the most obscure here, although you can interpret his "most powerful of the most powerful" to mean that he was the most powerful Sith Lord up to and of his time, which would include Muur.

Also Ragnos amulet gave a huge boost to Kun and Ulic, far more than what Nadds teachings and stuff gave him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nadd and Muur do have feats that can be used. Ragnos is the most obscure here, although you can interpret his "most powerful of the most powerful" to mean that he was the most powerful Sith Lord up to and of his time, which would include Muur.

Those feats are minimal at best and don't truly display what they are capable of.

Also you could take the quote to mean that, or you could take it to mean he was the strongest prior to his death. Couple that with the fact that I believe it comes from a publisher's summary and I don't really give it much credence.

Wasn't there a quote somewhere claiming that Ragnos was as physically strong as Darth Vader?

I don't think "the most powerful of the most powerful" clearly refers to everyone to that point, it could just be every Sith that was living (which would include Vitiate, heheh...).

Originally posted by ares834
Those feats are minimal at best and don't truly display what they are capable of.

What do you mean by "minimal"?

As for the quote, it mentions him being the "most powerful of the most powerful". I think we can safely assume that "most powerful" refers to Dark Lords of the Sith, who are the most powerful Sith Lords of the era. Ragnos was the most powerful of them all up to this time.

But yeah, it is from a publisher's summary.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wasn't there a quote somewhere claiming that Ragnos was as physically strong as Darth Vader?

A quote from forum users, probably.

I brought up that quotes existence years ago, the Vader and Ragnos comparison. Probs doesn't exist.

I don't think it clearly encompasses dead Sith Lords, and it could be referring to his political power.

We do know that Luke was terrified of Ragnos resurrecting, claiming that "all Jedi everywhere will die". If we take him seriously we'd put Ragnos above JA Luke, but I don't see how Luke could know that much about Ragnos's power level, and Ragnos's spirit was pwned by Jaden Korr, so yeah...

This matchup again?

Ragnos seems like a pretty powerful guy going by statmenets even though he's featless. Muur is the top dog going by feats though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What do you mean by "minimal"?

As in, very little.

I know what minimal means, but you said the feats are "minimal". In terms of effort or power or consequence or what?

What about the "power-ups" I mentioned, guys?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know what minimal means, but you said the feats are "minimal". In terms of effort or power or consequence or what?

As in they don't have many.

Originally posted by ares834
As in they don't have many.

Muur has enough to give a good impression of his power. Nadd has enough to make a reasonable estimate. Ragnos is the one who's wanting in terms of feats.

Originally posted by The Merchant
What about the "power-ups" I mentioned, guys?

What, as in the talismans? The Muur Talisman triumphs all - it was going to affect the fabric of the Force itself or whatever that quote was.

No. We really don't. All of Muur's feats are as a spirit. We have no clue how powerful he was as a man nor his dueling capabilities. It's similar situation with Nadd.

Originally posted by ares834
No. We really don't. All of Muur's feats are as a spirit. We have no clue how powerful he was as a man nor his dueling capabilities. It's similar situation with Nadd.

We know that they were more powerful than as spirits, lol.

Ok? So how does that change anything I said?

Because we know they'd be at least as powerful as when they performed the feats? We can safely estimate where Muur would be - Nadd we can also guess fairly reasonably.

No, we can't. It's all assumptions. We still have virtually no clue how powerful these character are. They could be roughly equal to their spirit form or they could be vastly more powerful.

Nadd is indeed vastly more powerful as a human being. Other than spirits being pretty much confirmed to be weaker than they were in the flesh, he was also empowering Ommin and Amanoa as a spirit.

As far as I know, when Muur takes possession of someone's body, he gets access to most of his powers, but not all. So he's at least as powerful.

Ragnos was not only the most powerful of the most powerful, but when he returned as a spirit, it caused ripples in the Force that awoke Odan-Urr from half the galaxy away. To resurrect Ragnos' spirit they had to absorb a number of dark side focal points to accomplish such, it is also stated that if Marka Ragnos is to return he'd be unstoppable, implying Ragnos > Jedi Academy Luke, just like Exar Kun.

So Ragnos>JA Luke>DE Luke>Palpatine?

This is according to the same Luke that thinks he's weaker than Obi Wan lol.

Originally posted by The Merchant
So Ragnos>JA Luke>DE Luke>Palpatine?

DE Luke isn't above Palpatine. And after DE, he began to hold back his power. Moreover, Luke thinks that every villain is unstoppable and comparable to Palpatine, while maintaining that Obi-Wan is still his better. I don't have much faith in Luke's opinions, lol.

The stuff AP said about Ragnos's Ghost causing ripples and making Odan-Urr view his funeral in a Force Vision is true, though. As is the power required to resurrect Ragnos's spirit, but then again, he had no problem manifesting in Tales of the Jedi or SWTOR. I'm assuming that it's just because Korriban's nexus was so weak at that point that the Disciples of Ragnos needed to siphon numerous Force nexuses with the Scepter to revive Ragnos's Ghost.

Also, in fairness, Muur does have Dark Transfer. That's an advantage I don't believe either of the other two have.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This matchup again?

It was Hord in place of Muur for the last one.

up

Murr wins.

Ragnos or Nadd, Ragnos by default, Nadd by feats.

Ragnos or Nadd.

Nadd ~/> Ragnos > Murr.

Muur.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
up

Ragnos > Nadd >> Muur.

Originally posted by MythLord
Nadd ~/> Ragnos > Murr.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ragnos > Nadd >> Muur.
Nah. Nadd isn't that far above Muur.

Well, for one, Ragnos is unquestionably greater than Nadd.

And nah, Muur isn't even the best of the Exiles, lol.

I agree with the fist part.

And? How does that prove Nadd >> Muur, lol.

By all accounts, Sadow is the greatest of the Original Sith Empire besides Ragnos and perhaps Hord. There is numerous references to him actually being the most powerful, with Sith such as Darth Bane and even Darth Caedus referring back to him as a golden example of the ancient Sith Lords. That makes sense, too. Just as Palpatine is the pinnacle of a thousand years of Sith knowledge, the same should likewise by true for Naga Sadow and the Original Sith Empire's *two*-thousand year ascension. In a confrontation between Naga Sadow and Karness Muur, it shouldn't really be much different between Darth Bane and Palpatine in that regard. And then let's bring in Freedon Nadd - a Sith Lord "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow. As a Jedi, Freedon Nadd was the greatest prodigy in history until perhaps Exar Kun or Revan. Then as a Sith Lord, Freedon Nadd learned all of Naga Sadow's secrets before killing him. Freedon Nadd lived for an additional century, learning every known Force power during the Old Republic era (even including those hidden within Holocrons and tomes). While he was eventually defeated by the Jedi, he managed to kill more of them in single-combat than any Sith who had come before. Even as a spirit, he's punking Vodo-Siosk Baas.

Karness Muur isn't even much of a powerhouse within his own era. He's not better than the greatest of the ancients by any measure. Ragnos > Nadd > Muur.

Muur.

Nadd

Nadd is probably the most powerful of the three. Given he was far more powerful than Naga Sadow, a century before his prime. Marka Ragnos' superiority over Sadow is never really made out to be that large and better yet, politics and manipulation tended to be his greatest assets in reigning for as long as he did.

Muur isn't even the most powerful Exile, Pall is supposed to be, who appears to be less powerful than Ragnos himself.

Nadd > Ragnos > Muur.

Over-all, it is a really nice indication for the ancient Sith that we have a very strong suggestion of Prime Muur > Prime Krayt & ESB Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think it clearly encompasses dead Sith Lords, and it could be referring to his political power.

We do know that Luke was terrified of Ragnos resurrecting, claiming that "all Jedi everywhere will die". If we take him seriously we'd put Ragnos above JA Luke, but I don't see how Luke could know that much about Ragnos's power level, and Ragnos's spirit was pwned by Jaden Korr, so yeah... Political power isn't a thing when a force user is being described as powerful. People need to stop using that as an excuse. "It probably means that... he controlled... the galaxy...", why would they bring that up? What reason did they have to bring up his ownership of the Galaxy???

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Political power isn't a thing when a force user is being described as powerful. People need to stop using that as an excuse. "It probably means that... he controlled... the galaxy...", why would they bring that up? What reason did they have to bring up his ownership of the Galaxy???

Well in context the quote certainly could indicate political power as it is talking about how Ragnos was the ruler of the Sith and how his death leaves a power vacuum. So...

Renders the other quote irrelevant to be honest.

Originally posted by AncientPower

Over-all, it is a really nice indication for the ancient Sith that we have a very strong suggestion of Prime Muur > Prime Krayt & ESB Vader.
* Vong Krayt
* 19BBY Vader

Muur > Reborn Krayt >/~ Spirit!Muur > Darth Krayt.

Based on what, exactly

Common sense, he isn't as powerful as he was when living. Welcome to the fundamentals of every Sith spirit ever.

Ragnos>Nadd>Muur

Muur.

If you take JA Lukes quote where he and the NJO have to be at full strength and combine their powers to defeat a reborn Ragnos then him. That quote also isn't far fetched considering how much hype Ragnos has and Lukes analysis justifies it. Keep in mind Luke knows Force Light at this point yet isn't strong enough to combat Ragnos one on one yet. Also Ragnos losing to Korr in Tavions' body obviously isn't an indicator of his power.

It's now confirmed that Nadd murdered Naga Sadow, meaning a physical attack. Therefore we can say for a fact that Freedon Nadd was far more powerful than Naga Sadow, before a century of power growth.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's now confirmed that Nadd murdered Naga Sadow, meaning a physical attack. Therefore we can say for a fact that Freedon Nadd was far more powerful than Naga Sadow, before a century of power growth.

Quote?

From the wording, it seems like Nadd only destroyed Sadow's spirit.

It specifically differentiates between killing and destroying. You can't kill what's already dead.

Plus Sadows spirit makes an appearance in TORs archives.