The most dangerous adversaries pitted against each other

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quanchi112
Films only. Which of these adversaries alone brings more to the table in terms of a menacing villain. Feel free to include tech, intelligence, ruthlessness, cunning, etc. to argue for who you feel is a better enemy.

Sheev Palpatine (Darth Sidious)

Vs.

Khan Noonien Singh (Into Darkness version)

Well ??

smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You had me at, "The most dangerous adversaries."

smile

quanchi112
I want some of this Sidious wank directed at me and in this topic. Tempest, Sinious, etc. come at me !!!!

The Ellimist
Palpatine is a universe buster

GG

EmperorSidious2
Go back to the movie versus forum where these rules are aloud. Here the best you could hope for is canon only and then you have more than just the films to draw from, so unless you play by this forums rules go back to movies versus.

Sinious
At least make this Darth Vader vs Khan or something lol

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Palpatine is a universe buster

GG When did he bust a universe in the films ? GO(game on).

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Go back to the movie versus forum where these rules are aloud. Here the best you could hope for is canon only and then you have more than just the films to draw from, so unless you play by this forums rules go back to movies versus. Allowed. laughing out loud

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
laughing out loud

The Ellimist
Originally posted by quanchi112
When did he bust a universe in the films ? GO(game on).

mmm The Anchorites are universe busters, and it seems like full potential Anakin > the Son and the Daughter combined. Lucas says full potential Anakin = 200% Sidious, so logically Sidious can bust half a universe. smile

quanchi112
Originally posted by Sinious
At least make this Darth Vader vs Khan or something lol Khan already killed Vader now he seeks his master with poor posture. Sheev leans forward way too much.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
mmm The Anchorites are universe busters, and it seems like full potential Anakin > the Son and the Daughter combined. Lucas says full potential Anakin = 200% Sidious, so logically Sidious can bust half a universe. smile Despite these wild theories we have never seen anything close to this level of power. Hell, Palpatine wasn't able to even seriously injure Luke despite over twenty seconds of exposure of his fl. I don't think you're being serious here but let's break this down. What each guy brings to the table in terms of weaponry, cunning, etc. and not just completely focus on speculative raw power for a moment.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by quanchi112
Despite these wild theories we have never seen anything close to this level of power.

It isn't a fan theory, it's according to the Father and IIRC an out of universe source.



He was obviously torturing him.



If you want me to be serious, this obviously isn't even a fight. Khan has no defense against telekinesis + lightsaber to the head, or lightning for that matter. If Sidious is feeling like an idiot and wants to fight him in melee for some reason, he still wins because, you know, he has a lightsaber. Khan can try shooting him, but Sidious can evidently deflect anything he throws at him, and/or just TK his phaser out of his hand.

It's a mismatch, clearly.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It isn't a fan theory, it's according to the Father and IIRC an out of universe source.



He was obviously torturing him.



If you want me to be serious, this obviously isn't even a fight. Khan has no defense against telekinesis + lightsaber to the head, or lightning for that matter. If Sidious is feeling like an idiot and wants to fight him in melee for some reason, he still wins because, you know, he has a lightsaber. Khan can try shooting him, but Sidious can evidently deflect anything he throws at him, and/or just TK his phaser out of his hand.

It's a mismatch, clearly. Films only here but it's silly regardless based off his consistent portrayals.

I didn't count the torture time I just counted the time after he announced he would now kill him.

Jango Fett didn't have a defense against tk either but he did alright against Kenobi and even the guy who bested old Sheev. This whole notion of tk crushes all really is out of character. Has Sheev used force choke before ? Yes, but against unsuspecting opponents without even being aware of his abilities at the time.

All of these fights come down to who hits the other one. It's about timing, ruthlessness, skill, behavior, etc.

Sheev in combat is an outright moron at times. He doesn't go for the jugular like Khan has. Sheev will cackle, taunt, play around, and give his opponent chances to capitalize. Khan is the guy who wields a gun that easily takes out a Klingon ship while Sheev is a guy who needs a decent amount of time to kill with his own fl or a well placed light saber strike.

The Ellimist
OK, Sheev obviously can't bust a universe. Continuing:

Originally posted by quanchi112
Jango Fett didn't have a defense against tk either but he did alright against Kenobi and even the guy who bested old Sheev.

Sheev is infinitely more powerful than AotC Obi Wan, lol. Perhaps more importantly, he has none of the aversion to using the Force offensively.



Funny, he chokes those two guards on the way to fighting Maul, and when Maul finally begins to pose a threat to him, resorts to ragdolling him. Against Yoda he leads with Force lightning, and closes with it in desperation.



OK, so let's run through the gauntlet of possible ways Sheev can kill Khan, all of which he has used before in combat, often LEADING with:

He can just snap his neck with a gesture. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can immobilize him and then stab him. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can electrocute him with Force lightning. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can engage him in melee and then cut him in half with his lightsaber. lol Khan can't do jack shit, what's he going to do to the lightsaber, punch it? laughing


What are Khan's options, exactly? If he tries to shoot Sidious, Sheev can just deflect his shots back at him or just TK his gun out of his hands. What, is he going to try to go mano a mano with a guy with a lightsaber?

Khan is a somewhat superhuman guy who can take lots of punches and shoot really straight. Sidious is a precog, superhuman beast who can move starships with his mind and kill you with his mind. They're in completely different leagues.

EmperorSidious2
Don't waste your time. Quan is a troll, and an idiot.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK, Sheev obviously can't bust a universe. Continuing:



Sheev is infinitely more powerful than AotC Obi Wan, lol. Perhaps more importantly, he has none of the aversion to using the Force offensively.



Funny, he chokes those two guards on the way to fighting Maul, and when Maul finally begins to pose a threat to him, resorts to ragdolling him. Against Yoda he leads with Force lightning, and closes with it in desperation.



OK, so let's run through the gauntlet of possible ways Sheev can kill Khan, all of which he has used before in combat, often LEADING with:

He can just snap his neck with a gesture. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can immobilize him and then stab him. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can electrocute him with Force lightning. Khan can't do jack shit.
He can engage him in melee and then cut him in half with his lightsaber. lol Khan can't do jack shit, what's he going to do to the lightsaber, punch it? laughing


What are Khan's options, exactly? If he tries to shoot Sidious, Sheev can just deflect his shots back at him or just TK his gun out of his hands. What, is he going to try to go mano a mano with a guy with a lightsaber?

Khan is a somewhat superhuman guy who can take lots of punches and shoot really straight. Sidious is a precog, superhuman beast who can move starships with his mind and kill you with his mind. They're in completely different leagues. Sheev is more powerful but let's not get carried away here. Kenobi used the force offensively against Grievous so he won't hesitate to apply that when appropriate. Kenobi just doesn't have the fl power.


Yes, the guards had time to shoot him but screamed, "Halt," instead. They had no idea who that was and what he was capable of.


Maul still managed to kick him and the application of his force powers shows he won't use them in the most effective way. He just knocked him around he didn't go for the kill. Sheev cackled throughout that fight and didn't deem him a threat he needed to put down ASAP.

1.) Whose neck has Sheev snapped ?

2.) When has he done so ? This is assuming he attacks first when based off the majority of the evidence he doesn't frequently do so.

3.) Khan has two guns. They put holes in people as opposed to fl which Luke walked away from with no injuries. Khan has resisted 8 stun shots before.

4.) Khan doesn't typically go around trying to engage in melee unless he has to and he's been shown very capable of using knives, close quarters combat, etc. to quickly dispose or incapacitate his opponents.


Based off what can Sheev deflect the Phaser cannon ? It emits a wider beam and is a lot more powerful than the blaster fire the lightsabers are shown to deflect.

Sheev is a guy who manipulates behind the scenes and used galactic armies to achieve his goals. Khan is one surhuman badass resisting a galactic power along with the Enterprise crew without any assistance outside of manipulation.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Don't waste your time. Quan is a troll, and an idiot. You are just bitter due to the humiliation I've forced you to suffer through.

Trocity
Originally posted by Sinious
At least make this Darth Vader vs Khan or something lol

Or "Random clone trooper from AOTC" rofl.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Trocity
Or "Random clone trooper from AOTC" rofl. What character from Star Wars can take on galactic authority on his own ?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by quanchi112
Sheev is more powerful but let's not get carried away here. Kenobi used the force offensively against Grievous so he won't hesitate to apply that when appropriate. Kenobi just doesn't have the fl power.


Again, why are you comparing Kenobi and Palpatine? Sidious has opened fights with Force attacks, he's done it against guards and he's done it against the likes of Yoda and Maul/Savage. You need to explain why he's just going to fight Khan honorably or something (not that it would change the outcome).



If Sidious wants the first strike, his precognition basically ensures that he's going to get it in before Khan can aim his phaser and pull a trigger. Regardless, what difference does it make if he gets to fire a few shots? It's not like Sidious can't deflect projectiles, but Khan can't really stop the Force from breaking his neck.



roll eyes (sarcastic) Oh for f*cks sake, it's not like he needs to be Hannibal to figure to crush the non-Force sensitive's neck with telekinesis, lol. He does this to the two non-Force sensitives we see him engage with. The fact that he wants to toy with his former apprentice is irrelevant - he has no such desires with Khan. We have no reason to think he'll take him any more seriously than those two guards he unceremoniously chokes.



He chokes two guards, but why does he need to show that particular maneuver to be able to defeat Khan from a distance? He is obviously powerful enough to, given that he can fling giant metal senate pods, it's hardly an enormous leap in logic to say that he can apply that force to someone's neck. Do I need to show that he's choked a particular guy named Khan at this particular location too? roll eyes (sarcastic)



He ragdolls Maul, during which he's effectively immobile.

He does frequently do so when facing non-Force sensitives. He doesn't give a sh*t about dueling with them.



Sheev was torturing Luke, otherwise he'd have just cut his head off. His lightning is powerful enough to send Mace Windu flying hundreds of feet out of the window, and his telekinesis is presumably comparable to/stronger than Vader's, which can crush starfighters and knock over AT-ATs. I don't care if Khan can resist stun shots.



Then he's f*cked, because Sidious will just take his phaser out of his hand and then crush his windpipe.



The new movie phasers aren't, no. And lol @ them being more powerful than blaster bolts that can make grape-sized holes in durasteel walls.



I don't think you're being serious, but I would point out that Sheev single-handedly succeeded in overthrowing a galactic government and Jedi Order which had existed continuously for 25,000 years, while defeating the most powerful Jedi in galactic history in single combat, and ruling effectively unchallenged for twenty years before finally losing to a literal in-universe deus ex machina. Khan died without doing anything in a few days.

Not that it matters to the fight.

Tondemonai
This thread is the embodiment of why everyone trashes on you, Quan. I'm going to humor you for a moment. Say we do only use movie showings, hell I'll even be generous and give Khan his shit from when he wrecked all those Klingons on Qo'nos. Sidious has his precognition abilities to anticipate when and what Khan is going to do, be it shoot with the cannon thing, the rifle, or simply make a simple movement. He also has his lightsaber, which can absorbe or deflect the phaser blasts Khan fires at him, and the cannon is no threat to someone who can jump higher or simply move out of the way faster than Khan could ever possibly hope to. Khan also has no defense against Sheev's FL or TK. I hate using this word in this way, but this thread is straight up retarded

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Again, why are you comparing Kenobi and Palpatine? Sidious has opened fights with Force attacks, he's done it against guards and he's done it against the likes of Yoda and Maul/Savage. You need to explain why he's just going to fight Khan honorably or something (not that it would change the outcome).



If Sidious wants the first strike, his precognition basically ensures that he's going to get it in before Khan can aim his phaser and pull a trigger. Regardless, what difference does it make if he gets to fire a few shots? It's not like Sidious can't deflect projectiles, but Khan can't really stop the Force from breaking his neck.



roll eyes (sarcastic) Oh for f*cks sake, it's not like he needs to be Hannibal to figure to crush the non-Force sensitive's neck with telekinesis, lol. He does this to the two non-Force sensitives we see him engage with. The fact that he wants to toy with his former apprentice is irrelevant - he has no such desires with Khan. We have no reason to think he'll take him any more seriously than those two guards he unceremoniously chokes.



He chokes two guards, but why does he need to show that particular maneuver to be able to defeat Khan from a distance? He is obviously powerful enough to, given that he can fling giant metal senate pods, it's hardly an enormous leap in logic to say that he can apply that force to someone's neck. Do I need to show that he's choked a particular guy named Khan at this particular location too? roll eyes (sarcastic)



He ragdolls Maul, during which he's effectively immobile.

He does frequently do so when facing non-Force sensitives. He doesn't give a sh*t about dueling with them.



Sheev was torturing Luke, otherwise he'd have just cut his head off. His lightning is powerful enough to send Mace Windu flying hundreds of feet out of the window, and his telekinesis is presumably comparable to/stronger than Vader's, which can crush starfighters and knock over AT-ATs. I don't care if Khan can resist stun shots.



Then he's f*cked, because Sidious will just take his phaser out of his hand and then crush his windpipe.



The new movie phasers aren't, no. And lol @ them being more powerful than blaster bolts that can make grape-sized holes in durasteel walls.



I don't think you're being serious, but I would point out that Sheev single-handedly succeeded in overthrowing a galactic government and Jedi Order which had existed continuously for 25,000 years, while defeating the most powerful Jedi in galactic history in single combat, and ruling effectively unchallenged for twenty years before finally losing to a literal in-universe deus ex machina. Khan died without doing anything in a few days.

Not that it matters to the fight. Both have tk which you claimed decimates those without it. That isn't the case based off the evidence. Let's compare the showings then you have entered as evidence. You are using two showings one in which he takes out Mandalorian guards and one in which he strikes Yoda.

First things first now. The Mandalorian guards had multiple seconds to fire first and said halt. Their guns were raised and they shouted a word before Palpatine attacked. They had multiple seconds to fire on him.

Secondly, he spoke and it took him two seconds to execute the attack. That isn't quick at all. He spoke, he forewarned, and when all was said and done it took two seconds to pull this off. Horribly slow.

Not even honorably but foolishly and arrogantly describes how he takes opponents on. Khan takes them on ruthlessly.

No, it doesn't. Where was precognition when he let Yoda get to his feet and he force pushed him. He gave him over thirty seconds of recovery time to regain himself to mount a counter offensive. At this point the "COWARD" aka Sheev tries to leap it of the room and danger. Yoda is a dash ahead of him and prevents his escape.


When has Sidious on scree deflected something as powerful and as wide as the phaser cannon ?

Choking is toying with his foes. Snapping someone's neck or killing them as soon as possible isn't. All of the hiards were not aware of what they were up with and were choked. That isn't the case here.

Let's examine that slippery slope a little further. Ok you say hey why is it a stretch since he can effortlessly toss a senate pod. Well the answer is so can Yoda. Why didn't Yoda break Sheev's neck when he force pushed him ? That isn't how it works. You can't just apply the powers in an advantageous manner in which you've never seen applied on screen. I am not saying it's an impossibility I am saying it's an unlikelihood.


He does ragdoll Maul but he doesn't defeat him with his first attack so why do you assume he will end someone with superhuman resiliency. Seems a bit of a stretch. Khan recovers very, very, very quickly does Maul ? Nah.

Based off the evidence Khan fires quicker than Sheev uses his force powers. We can compare the showings if you'd like to time them out. If you doubt my claim that is.

Sheev was torturing him before but said he'd now die. He made his intentions clear. Luke still survived a prolonged assault of it. Yes, the fl can send a victim backward out a window to plummet to their death. Just like a force push can. Windu just lot a hand and was reeling in pain completely vulnerable right next to a window. Nothing to get excited about.

So ? You need applications not abc logic that Sheev rips heads off before someone can blink based off Vader took down an At At in a comic type reasoning.

Khan fires quicker than Sheev applies his force powers based off the evidence and the behavior/consistency of the characters.

We can base it off of what these blasters do to armored bodies. The new phaser cannon makes blasters look pathetic by comparison. It isn't close.

Sheev was an unknown behind tone scenes in a much better situation. He never had an empire on his ass. The Jedi weren't even aware of his ulterior motives. Much easier to work in the shadows then being awakened to serving some Starfleet high ranking douchebag obsessed with exploiting you for your ruthless and brilliant mind. Khan broke free and eventually crushes his skull. Khan was by himself whereas Palpatine worked in the shadows manipulating and using his clone army to clip the Jedi order before they knew what hit them after Anakin betrayed Windu.


Khan also didn't die there and he won't die here.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
This thread is the embodiment of why everyone trashes on you, Quan. I'm going to humor you for a moment. Say we do only use movie showings, hell I'll even be generous and give Khan his shit from when he wrecked all those Klingons on Qo'nos. Sidious has his precognition abilities to anticipate when and what Khan is going to do, be it shoot with the cannon thing, the rifle, or simply make a simple movement. He also has his lightsaber, which can absorbe or deflect the phaser blasts Khan fires at him, and the cannon is no threat to someone who can jump higher or simply move out of the way faster than Khan could ever possibly hope to. Khan also has no defense against Sheev's FL or TK. I hate using this word in this way, but this thread is straight up retarded

Precognition didn't help

1). Windu kick his saber away in defeat.

2). Yoda force pushes him after he gave him over a half a minute to recover after the fl. Sheev is an idiot.

3). Despite knowing Vader had internal conflict in him Sheev didn't see Vader turning on him without a hand. His reflexes and precog utterly failed against a slow, one handed, slower moving cyborg.

That's evidence not your bias talking. Let's stick to the facts not preconceived notions. Let's go Sheev fans.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by quanchi112
Both have tk which you claimed decimates those without it.

Since when does Into Darkness Khan have telekinesis? If he does, since when has he applied it to a fraction of the effect of Sidious's?



OK, let's just assume that he'll recognize Khan for the insignificant pest that he is and wait a few seconds before slowly choking him to death. What does this change? Khan draws his phaser and fires a few shots, Sidious deflects them with his lightsaber, dodges them, palms them, stops them midair, and/or crushes his gun. Then he slowly chokes Khan to death, who obviously isn't going to be able to do much as his windpipe is restricted.

How does this change anything?



laughing So because Yoda manages to surprise him, you just assume Khan can? They obviously have comparable speed feats, lol.



Blaster bolts that can make three-inch wide holes in durasteel walls?

Also, there's more to the canon than the movies, lol.

And once again, this distinction is irrelevant because he can just crush his gun.



Jesus f*cking christ. This is the same generic cookie cutter response that everyone who's arguing against a Force user employs when they lack a real argument; they just assume that the Force user in question won't do the most obvious maneuver, even when everyone agrees that they are capable of doing it, just because they say so.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if he chokes Khan to death or snaps his neck; either way, he dies.



no expression

Yoda doesn't do it to Palpatine because Palpatine is a powerful Force user. Khan is just a human with modestly superhuman durability, nothing that someone who can crush durasteel can't overcome. The notion of equation the two is hilarious.



rolling on floor laughing

Maul survived getting cut in half and thrown into a well, and you're trying to brag about Khan surviving a few stun bolts?

Regardless, I've already responded to this, which you would've noticed if you'd actually use the quote function properly. Sidious has a reason to toy with Maul; Khan, meanwhile, is an insignificant nobody to him. He'll just choke him like he chokes the two guards.



WTF are you talking about? The Force acts instantaneously and without even a gesture; Khan has to raise his phaser, aim it, and then fire. This isn't even considering Sheev's ability to see things before they f*cking happen. The only "evidence" you've brought to the contrary is that Sheev waits a little bit before choking those two guards, which you take to conclude that he's somehow incapable of choking them sooner, and that he would've done the same thing if his precognition had told him that they were about to fire at him.

It's almost like you'll need a video of Padme pooping to accept that she takes shits.



This is just a horrible misunderstanding of basic dialogue. He says that "you will die". This doesn't mean "you will die and I'm going to kill you in the quickest, most efficient way possible", or else he would've just chopped his head off. TCW shows us that Dooku's lightning can kill; Sidious can toss someone hundreds of feet with it, there's clearly no question that he could have killed Luke quickly if he wanted to.

BTW, you do realize that Luke himself was an extremely powerful Jedi, right?

Also, you realize that this tangent is irrelevant to the topic at hand, because a Khan writhing in pain still can't do jack shit but die slowly, right?



Just dismissing arguments with hackneyed catchphrases like "abc logic" doesn't fly. If Vader were orders of magnitude stronger than Palpatine in telekinesis, he would've just crushed his master with a gesture. He evidently cannot do that.

Not that this matters anyway; Sheev is clearly more than capable of using the Force to kill or ragdoll, given that he can fling senate pods.



Who cares even if this were true? Just blast his blasts or take his gun away.



No, it isn't. Trust me, these kinds of sci-fi debates are my specialty; if you can show me phaser blasts that match this:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/CloneShot-2.jpg

Or this:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

Or anything here:

ZC8hwysZFd4

let me know.



So being able to fool the entire Galactic Republic, along with the most powerful Jedi Order in the mythos, should be counted against him?



Who cares? He lost.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since when does Into Darkness Khan have telekinesis? If he does, since when has he applied it to a fraction of the effect of Sidious's?



OK, let's just assume that he'll recognize Khan for the insignificant pest that he is and wait a few seconds before slowly choking him to death. What does this change? Khan draws his phaser and fires a few shots, Sidious deflects them with his lightsaber, dodges them, palms them, stops them midair, and/or crushes his gun. Then he slowly chokes Khan to death, who obviously isn't going to be able to do much as his windpipe is restricted.

How does this change anything?



laughing So because Yoda manages to surprise him, you just assume Khan can? They obviously have comparable speed feats, lol.



Blaster bolts that can make three-inch wide holes in durasteel walls?

Also, there's more to the canon than the movies, lol.

And once again, this distinction is irrelevant because he can just crush his gun.



Jesus f*cking christ. This is the same generic cookie cutter response that everyone who's arguing against a Force user employs when they lack a real argument; they just assume that the Force user in question won't do the most obvious maneuver, even when everyone agrees that they are capable of doing it, just because they say so.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if he chokes Khan to death or snaps his neck; either way, he dies.



no expression

Yoda doesn't do it to Palpatine because Palpatine is a powerful Force user. Khan is just a human with modestly superhuman durability, nothing that someone who can crush durasteel can't overcome. The notion of equation the two is hilarious.



rolling on floor laughing

Maul survived getting cut in half and thrown into a well, and you're trying to brag about Khan surviving a few stun bolts?

Regardless, I've already responded to this, which you would've noticed if you'd actually use the quote function properly. Sidious has a reason to toy with Maul; Khan, meanwhile, is an insignificant nobody to him. He'll just choke him like he chokes the two guards.



WTF are you talking about? The Force acts instantaneously and without even a gesture; Khan has to raise his phaser, aim it, and then fire. This isn't even considering Sheev's ability to see things before they f*cking happen. The only "evidence" you've brought to the contrary is that Sheev waits a little bit before choking those two guards, which you take to conclude that he's somehow incapable of choking them sooner, and that he would've done the same thing if his precognitionhundreds of feet with it, there's clearly no question that he could have killed Luke quickly if he wanted to.

BTW, you do realize that Luke himself was an extremely powerful Jedi, right?

Also, you realize that this tangent is irrelevant to the topic at hand, because a Khan writhing in pain still can't do jack shit but die slowly, right?



Just dismissing arguments with hackneyed catchphrases like "abc logic" doesn't fly. If Vader were orders of magnitude stronger than Palpatine in telekinesis, he would've just crushed his master with a gesture. He evidently cannot do that.

Not that this matters anyway; Sheev is clearly more than capable of using the Force to kill or ragdoll, given that he can fling senate pods.



Who cares even if this were true? Just blast his blasts or take his gun away.



No, it isn't. Trust me, these kinds of sci-fi debates are my specialty; if you can show me phaser blasts that match this:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/CloneShot-2.jpg

Or this:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

Or anything here:

ZC8hwysZFd4

let me know.



So being able to fool the entire Galactic Republic, along with the most powerful Jedi Order in the mythos, should be counted against him?



Who cares? He lost. Who said you have to have tk to kill someone with it ? You made a claim. Are you suggesting their bodies are immune to physical damage ? Are you claiming tk is faster ?

You need proof as to why Sidious can casually deflect the firepower and dual guns Khan wields in this instance. You just scripted what you want to happen not what is likely to occur. Khan hits him he dies. Sidious has not shown the ability to casually deflect something this wide and powerful as the phase cannon/Boolean gun that Khan uses.

There's a reason if you can keep the offensive and someone on the defensive they can't just casually stand there and do what needs to be done without dying. Timing is everything in these fights. Take for instance Kenobi when he tried using his force powers to reacquire his Lightsaber. Jango kept him off balance and pressed the attack so he didn't have the opportunity. This is how fighting has always worked. Take a look at the Maul/Vizsla fight. He didn't casually stomp him but when the openings were there and after he was worn down did Maul win.

Yoda had over thirty seconds to recover. Palpatine knew what threat Ypda represented and still gave him all that time while he cackled. That's how stupid and arrogant the Sith Lord is. If you want to count the time it took Yoda to regain his balance and force push its like zombie level slow.

You are making up gun destroying tk feats. You can't apply the powers however you want in a timeframe you just dream up. You need evidence to assert your claims.

False. You're arguing based off the generic pro Star Wars cookie cutter argument that said fighter uses said powers in said way in said time. That isn't how it works. We go based off the evidence not our imagination spinning the application of said powers in an advantageous manner.

Why can't Khan shoot from his shoulder cannon that's strapped around his shoulder ? He has superhuman cellular regeneration so do not compare his cells to those scrubs from the Star Wars universe. He's better.

False reasoning. I'll expose it. In the clone wars we see Ventress successfully force choke both Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. The ship was jolted and this broke her concentration. Despite the fact two Jedi were superior to her Ventress' powers worked the same against anyone with a windpipe. if Palpatine gets struck with a Lightsaber it hurts him. His power doesn't make him invulnerable. If he gets shot with a blaster and it hits him it kills or seriously injures depending on the injury. Their skills are what matter and the application of their powers at crucial moments in combat.

Khan is someone with cellular superhuman regeneration whereas Sheev is some old geriatric with power in the force. That power didn't save his face from the facial scarring as a result of the fl. Luke walked away without a single scar. Palpatine isn't very durable at all. Khan makes Palpatine look like someone who should be in a nursing home. His posture is atrocious and his gait is even pathetic.

Maul doesn't recover quickly. That's the point. Sure he survived something unbelievable but it didn't get him back into the fight. He doesn't bounce back like Khan does. That was a key plot point to his abilities how quickly his cells regenerated. His blood saved terminal cases and in the proper setting resurrected the dead.

Sidious also toyed with Opress, Luke, and Yoda. That's too many examples to ignore. Yoda is the biggest glare on that list because he was aware of his station and power as a Jedi. Khan guns him down first. In that scenario he didn't even have his saber drawn. Evidence supports Khan. Palpatine is sloppy and stupid.

Palpatine used a gesture to attack Yoda. Yoda used a gesture to attack Sheev. Sheev used gestures to hurl pods. It doesn't act instantly it has to be concentrated on and then it works. It's like pressing a button. Once you concentrate it works just like once you hit the button the blast comes.

I've given numerous examples of him not seeing things coming. You don't get to ignore him not seeing 1. Vader turn
2. Not seeing Yoda come to and get back into the fight over thirty second later
3. Not see Windu's kick disarm him.

Palpatine had Yoda at his mercy for over a half a minute and despite common sense screaming for him to press his advantage he let him get to his feet and counter attack. Where the **** was his common sense let alone his precog ?

I cite evidence not vague terms while under direct evidence wilt like a flower out of bloom.

I didn't mean to imply he meant you will die right now but he was not holding back his fl. Prior to he was torturing but he made his intentions clear. Why didn't precog warn him about Vader turning ? So you ignore the evidence and the fact his fl has not killed anyone directly by saying Dooku did. When ?

So what ? Shoot him with a blaster and he bleeds. It doesn't alter his durability.

He can shoot while he's choking.


I never said he was a lot more powerful than Sheev. I said this feat in no way translates into a feat for Palpatine. Vader hasn't ever used the force in that manner either.

Sheev has ragdolled before but who did he kill ? I'll need examples not coulda, wouldas, shouldas.

So who fires and attacks first doesn't matter to you. Ok.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Sheev faced less opposition. In fact his enemies gave him info all the time. He had a luxury most baddies don't by directly speaking to the opposition without their knowledge.

Sheev also lost to Windu. Sheev also got killed by Vader. He's dead. Khan isn't.

quanchi112
With regards to the phaser cannon read this post.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mTJS0L_Hs

4.) Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.

55 seconds: Khan begins his assault on the Klingons.

1:17: Khan's phaser cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.

1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one out with an accurate blast from his phaser weapon.

1:39--1:41: Khan use the phaser cannon to physically take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.

1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.

1:51: Here we see Kirk shoot down a Klingon.

2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.

2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.

2:18--2:21: The damage the Boolean gun does to a humanoid body with body armor.

2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.

Do not compare the shitty weapons these idiots use to Khan's phaser cannon. Hell, even in the force awakens multiple gunshots failed to even significantly damage the Millenium Falcon.

Tondemonai
"Crawling to the first egress--as distance of scarcely ten meters--he lowered himself ino a murky storage room and once more called upon the weapon's crimson blade from the hilt. Constructed to fit the Muun's large hand, the lightsaber felt unwieldy in Sidious's, so he switched to a two-handed grip. Moving with a caution that belied his murderous intent, and on the alert for cams or other security devices, he eased out of the room into a tight corridor and followed it toward the front of the building. There, in a formal entryway, two Dugs were standing guard in a desultory way. Moving quickly, a blur to human senses, he caught them by surprise, splitting open the chest and abdomen and beheading the other while the first was attempting to prevent entrails from spilling onto the glossy mosaic floor. A brief scan of the foyer revealed the presence of cams installed in the walls and high ceiling. He wondered how the killings appeared to anyone monitoring a display screen. It must have seemed as if the two Dugs had been butchered by a phantom."

-Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (paperback pages 300-301)

This is more than substantial evidence that he can move fast enough to close the distance before Khan can even lift an eyebrow in surprise. Note: this is LOOOOOOOOOOONG before his prime, roughly twenty years before The Phantom Menace, which itself is 13 years before Revenge of the Sith, which is 23 years before Return of the Jedi. If this doesn't convince you, then clearly you're just braindead.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
"Crawling to the first egress--as distance of scarcely ten meters--he lowered himself ino a murky storage room and once more called upon the weapon's crimson blade from the hilt. Constructed to fit the Muun's large hand, the lightsaber felt unwieldy in Sidious's, so he switched to a two-handed grip. Moving with a caution that belied his murderous intent, and on the alert for cams or other security devices, he eased out of the room into a tight corridor and followed it toward the front of the building. There, in a formal entryway, two Dugs were standing guard in a desultory way. Moving quickly, a blur to human senses, he caught them by surprise, splitting open the chest and abdomen and beheading the other while the first was attempting to prevent entrails from spilling onto the glossy mosaic floor. A brief scan of the foyer revealed the presence of cams installed in the walls and high ceiling. He wondered how the killings appeared to anyone monitoring a display screen. It must have seemed as if the two Dugs had been butchered by a phantom."

-Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (paperback pages 300-301)

This is more than substantial evidence that he can move fast enough to close the distance before Khan can even lift an eyebrow in surprise. Note: this is LOOOOOOOOOOONG before his prime, roughly twenty years before The Phantom Menace, which itself is 13 years before Revenge of the Sith, which is 23 years before Return of the Jedi. If this doesn't convince you, then clearly you're just braindead. Originally posted by quanchi112
Films only. ----------
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which of these adversaries alone brings more to the table in terms of a menacing villain. Feel free to include tech, intelligence, ruthlessness, cunning, etc. to argue for who you feel is a better enemy.

Sheev Palpatine (Darth Sidious)

Vs.

Khan Noonien Singh (Into Darkness version)

Well ??

smile Quit citing non canon sources as well as going against the intentions of the op in an effort to give Sheev aid. If you don't believe in the film version that's fine but just have the guts to admit it.

smile

The Ellimist
It seems like we've a few points to disagree over.

1. Will Sheev choke him?

The question of whether he can isn't even worth discussing - now you're just claiming that he won't out of some sort of arrogance. You've consistently ignored my observation that while he can display a desire to duel against Maul or Yoda, when he faces two random guards, he just chokes them. Khan is not Force-sensitive; to Palpatine, he's nothing.

Your response is that he still waits for them to say "stop" before he chokes them, and they could've shot him in the meantime. Well, no, because if they had thought of pulling the trigger, Sidious's precog would've kicked in and he'd have choked them first/earlier.

Ultimately when we're having these kinds of debates, unless if you have sufficient data points to suggest otherwise - and pointing to him dueling the likes of Yoda and Maul hardly compares to him dealing with some random dude with a gun - we need to use some basic reasoning here to fill in the blanks. Choking someone is easy, it's not beyond Sidious's ability to figure to do, and it's something he's done before. Suggesting that he wouldn't kill Khan in an efficient manner is a pretty desperate move on your part.

BTW, you bring up the fact that he tries to run from Yoda - right, whenever he thinks he's in danger, he doesn't hesitate to make the tactical and strategic decision. If you actually think Khan poses a serious threat to Sheev, he can just snap his neck with a gesture.

And what about lightning? Sidious opens his fight against Yoda with it; why won't he do that here? You try to quibble over whether it's fatal (even though it can launch Windu hundreds of feet), which is irrelevant; the point is that it can incapacitate Khan, at which point he's clearly at Sidious's mercy.

2. Can Khan do anything to him?

But let's assume that Sheev decides to act like an idiot and let Khan attack. What can he do, exactly? You say that his phasers are too powerful for Sheev to handle, but seem to have posted the wrong video - that's of a copter-mounted chaingun. Interestingly enough, none of those shots actually compare with the firepower of, say, clone troopers' blaster rifles, which can blow apart droidekas with single shots. But even if they did, what would that demonstrate? It's obviously not going to penetrate his lightsaber - so do you think it'll knock it out of his hands? Unlikely, given Jedi durability and strength feats elaborated on below, but if that happens, wouldn't Sheev have every incentive to take the gloves off and just break his neck?

Jedi clearly have superhuman physical abilities, given Anakin's ability to casually hit a moving metal airspeeder at terminal velocity, Obi Wan and Qui Gon jumping dozens of meters into the air, etc. They're also incredibly durable, seeing the number of shots it takes to kill Jedi in Order 66.

There are so many other ways Sheev can neutralize Khan. He can crush his phaser before he moves, or he can just use the Force to pull Khan towards him and then impale him on his lightsaber.

----

The only way Khan can win this is if:

Sheev is a complete moron and just lets Khan fire at him.
Sheev apparently can't hold onto his lightsaber or employ any of the precognition he has developed.
Sheev makes no attempt to crush his phaser, pull him to his lightsaber, knock his gun away, trip him, or do anything that comes off as incredibly obvious employments of his abilities.
Despite the lack of precedent for Sidious facing non-Force sensitives (except for the one you don't want to use because he kills them from the get-go), rather than making intelligent guesses about how these characters act, we should just assume that they'll act in the dumbest way possible because it'll help your side win.


This is possible, I guess, in the same way many things are, but is it the most likely outcome? Hell no.

Tondemonai
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

2:42

Explain to me how Khan survives an onslaught like this, or even his FL. it's completely insensible to even consider the possibility of surviving Sheev's FL when Khan is a. not a Forceful being and can't defend against an attack like this, let alone survive a direct hit, and b. in the extremely unlikely event that he does survive, do you really expect him to have the stamina or even consciousness to stand up, let alone fight? It's pure comedy gold to consider that you truly believe this shit. Go back to where you belong, which is anywhere but on the Star Wars Versus Forums.

S_W_LeGenD
Khan failed to kill Spock in a lengthy confrontation:

vhRzfg3zLbA

How is he going to contend with Palpatine?

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It seems like we've a few points to disagree over.

1. Will Sheev choke him?

The question of whether he can isn't even worth discussing - now you're just claiming that he won't out of some sort of arrogance. You've consistently ignored my observation that while he can display a desire to duel against Maul or Yoda, when he faces two random guards, he just chokes them. Khan is not Force-sensitive; to Palpatine, he's nothing.

Your response is that he still waits for them to say "stop" before he chokes them, and they could've shot him in the meantime. Well, no, because if they had thought of pulling the trigger, Sidious's precog would've kicked in and he'd have choked them first/earlier.

Ultimately when we're having these kinds of debates, unless if you have sufficient data points to suggest otherwise - and pointing to him dueling the likes of Yoda and Maul hardly compares to him dealing with some random dude with a gun - we need to use some basic reasoning here to fill in the blanks. Choking someone is easy, it's not beyond Sidious's ability to figure to do, and it's something he's done before. Suggesting that he wouldn't kill Khan in an efficient manner is a pretty desperate move on your part.

BTW, you bring up the fact that he tries to run from Yoda - right, whenever he thinks he's in danger, he doesn't hesitate to make the tactical and strategic decision. If you actually think Khan poses a serious threat to Sheev, he can just snap his neck with a gesture.

And what about lightning? Sidious opens his fight against Yoda with it; why won't he do that here? You try to quibble over whether it's fatal (even though it can launch Windu hundreds of feet), which is irrelevant; the point is that it can incapacitate Khan, at which point he's clearly at Sidious's mercy.

2. Can Khan do anything to him?

But let's assume that Sheev decides to act like an idiot and let Khan attack. What can he do, exactly? You say that his phasers are too powerful for Sheev to handle, but seem to have posted the wrong video - that's of a copter-mounted chaingun. Interestingly enough, none of those shots actually compare with the firepower of, say, clone troopers' blaster rifles, which can blow apart droidekas with single shots. But even if they did, what would that demonstrate? It's obviously not going to penetrate his lightsaber - so do you think it'll knock it out of his hands? Unlikely, given Jedi durability and strength feats elaborated on below, but if that happens, wouldn't Sheev have every incentive to take the gloves off and just break his neck?

Jedi clearly have superhuman physical abilities, given Anakin's ability to casually hit a moving metal airspeeder at terminal velocity, Obi Wan and Qui Gon jumping dozens of meters into the air, etc. They're also incredibly durable, seeing the number of shots it takes to kill Jedi in Order 66.

There are so many other ways Sheev can neutralize Khan. He can crush his phaser before he moves, or he can just use the Force to pull Khan towards him and then impale him on his lightsaber.

----

The only way Khan can win this is if:

Sheev is a complete moron and just lets Khan fire at him.
Sheev apparently can't hold onto his lightsaber or employ any of the precognition he has developed.
Sheev makes no attempt to crush his phaser, pull him to his lightsaber, knock his gun away, trip him, or do anything that comes off as incredibly obvious employments of his abilities.
Despite the lack of precedent for Sidious facing non-Force sensitives (except for the one you don't want to use because he kills them from the get-go), rather than making intelligent guesses about how these characters act, we should just assume that they'll act in the dumbest way possible because it'll help your side win.


This is possible, I guess, in the same way many things are, but is it the most likely outcome? Hell no.

1. Let's go down that road. Choking link and cellular regeneration links

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/choking/article_em.htm

Breathing is an essential part of life. When we inhale, we breathe in a mix of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other gases.

In the lungs, oxygen enters the bloodstream to travel to the rest of the body. Our bodies use oxygen as a fuel source to make energy from the food we eat. Carbon dioxide, a waste product, enters the bloodstream and travels back to the lungs.
When we exhale, we breathe out carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and oxygen.
When someone is choking with a completely blocked airway, no oxygen can enter the lungs. The brain is extremely sensitive to this lack of oxygen and begins to die within four to six minutes. It is during this time that first aid must take place. Irreversible brain death occurs in as little as 10 minutes.





http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/newsroom/news-releases/year-2013/nov/cell-release.html

Cell regeneration link 1^^


Link 2

Rapid Cellular Regeneration (Tissue Regeneration, Epithial Cell Regeneration, or Healing Factor) is the ability to regenerate at a superhumanly quick rate. One with this ability regenerates as an automatic response to injury, and the body usually repairs itself within less than a minute (though a little over a minute is not uncommon) depending on the severity of the damage done.



http://advancing-evolution.wikia.com/wiki/Rapid_Cellular_Regeneration


What is the quickest amount of time Palpatine choked out someone without superhuman cellular regeneration ?

So you're saying he's nothing but then acting like Palpatine tries to finish him off as quickly as possible when he doesn't even deem him a threat. It seems you agree with me. Quit ignoring the real time that takes place when he chokes the guards who had enough time to aim and say the word, halt. Darth Maul has force choked mandalorians before but he didn't casually defeat Vizsla because he was that damn good. It took a lengthy battle for Maul to end up victorious despite the lack of force sensitivity.

How did order 66 pan out against those force sensitives ? Were they caught off guard and systematically destroyed save a small number. SIDS precog didn't kick in when he allowed Yoda over thirty seconds to regain his balance and force push him. Common sense screams what the **** are you doing Sidious you complete idiot why would you let your opponent regain composure and not press your advantage of the most powerful Jedi ? Stupid, stupid. Your theories fall apart with direct evidence. Why didn't precog warn him about Windu's foot or Vader's betrayal ? This wasn't happening at the speed of light either. Vader was slow as **** and he only had one hand.

How is it desperate when you are ignoring his superhuman resiliency and skill with his weaponry. Why can't he fire them if Sidious attacked first ?

There you go again making a baseless claim. You have to deal with facts not what ifs. Whose neck does he just casually snap with his force powers. Basically if I take this seriously their feats don't matter and let's just make up attacks based off the application of their powers and weapons.

2. Khan blows his body into pieces. Khab doesn't give speeches he shoots to kill while Sheev cackles like an idiot or he will give a long winded speech about the threat of the dark side. This gun blew bodies to bits and took down Klingon ships with single shots. I have seen the clones shoot unamped Jedi and their bodies weren't even torn into. Hell, we see blasters fire into bodies throughout the films and they never do the kind of damage the shoulder cannon from Khan did in that scene.

What blast did Palpatine or anyone for that matter deflect as wide and as powerful ?

When does he just start snapping necks ?

Khan also has superhuman physical abilities and he doesn't need to link up with the force to do so either. They were just shooting them to kill them. We see Jango didn't need that many shots to kill a Jedi before in attack of the clones.
Jedi weren't steamrolling past shots at all. They were dropping like flies. The blasts were so weak multiple shots weren't even ripping their bodies apart.

*Sheev is a moron in combat.
* I didn't say he can't I said prove he can since he's never done so to my knowledge in the films or even in the series against this kind of firepower. His precognition has been worse than common sense. His reaction time is worse than a human beings at times, Yoda, Vader, etc.

* How often does he do so ? I am not saying it's an impossibility I'm saying it's unlikely. You need examples. He didn't easily disarm Yoda. He never disarmed Windu. It took him time to disarm Maul. So why all of a sudden is he breaking necks and disarming foes in a millisecond. Your perception isn't reality you need facts to back your claims otherwise our imaginations can run wild.


Khan will fire off multiple rounds and he has dual guns. What do you think Sheev will do since he isn't likely to just attack first. If Khan hits Palpatine he does not the same if he hits Khan with fl or even the Lightsaber.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

2:42

Explain to me how Khan survives an onslaught like this, or even his FL. it's completely insensible to even consider the possibility of surviving Sheev's FL when Khan is a. not a Forceful being and can't defend against an attack like this, let alone survive a direct hit, and b. in the extremely unlikely event that he does survive, do you really expect him to have the stamina or even consciousness to stand up, let alone fight? It's pure comedy gold to consider that you truly believe this shit. Go back to where you belong, which is anywhere but on the Star Wars Versus Forums. Yoda just did. laughing out loud

Dear lord, this is kind of bad. Yoda a guy who can't even walk properly who has bad posture and needs a cane without the force to walk down a hallway. Yoda's body is shit. Khan's blood cures AIDS. Khan can resist 8 stun blasts after he crash lands, jumps 98 feet, and has a drawn out fight with Spock. And you give me this shit. Luke walks away from this guys force lightning like a boss. It's like a really bad headache that just suddenly does away.

Khan has superhuman resiliency aka superhuman cellular regeneration and you have the unmitigated gall to post an attack a 800 year old geriatric surviving this attack. The guy can't even walk in a straight line on his own.

laughing out loud

quanchi112
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Khan failed to kill Spock in a lengthy confrontation:

vhRzfg3zLbA

How is he going to contend with Palpatine? Let me explain the context you seem to be forgetting. Spock was armed Khan wasn't. Khan is armed in this thread. Are you still with me ? Khan disarmed him and was about to kill him when the enterprise beamed down Uhura with a weapon. How is any of this relevant to this fight ?

I might as well reference Sidious being killed by a one handed Vader.

Trocity
Khan was afraid of Spock.

Sheev's cackle has him fleeing as usual.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Trocity
Khan was afraid of Spock.

Sheev's cackle has him fleeing as usual. No, Spock was armed. When you see a guy with a gun do you charge right at him ?

Khan disarmed him and was about to crush his skull. Sheev's posture wouldn't be able to handle Khan. Both he and Yoda I mean stand the **** straight up. Quit leaning you weaklings.

Trocity
Khan's punches are slow but his legs are fast, good for running away from Spock ( and Palpatine ).

MythLord
Palpatine could destroy all of space. Therefore, he is multiversal because it doesn't specify if its the space of all universes or just his.

Tondemonai
At this point I'm tempted to refer you to a mental stabilization hospital. I sincerely hope that you don't really believe this, do you realize that the only reason Yoda survived any of these attacks is because he is a very powerful Force user that use the Force to protect and sustainable I himself. Explain to me, sir, how in the hell Khan survives his lightning or a massive pillar hurled directly into him at several kilometers an hour, let alone dozens?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
At this point I'm tempted to refer you to a mental stabilization hospital. I sincerely hope that you don't really believe this, do you realize that the only reason Yoda survived any of these attacks is because he is a very powerful Force user that use the Force to protect and sustainable I himself. Explain to me, sir, how in the hell Khan survives his lightning or a massive pillar hurled directly into him at several kilometers an hour, let alone dozens? Completely inaccurate. Khan shoots him before he can hurl a pillar or he can dodge it like Yoda did. Should not be hard. Yoda needs the force to move around and without it his body needs a cane. That's rather pathetic. Even with the force Yoda failed to decimate Dooku. That's kind of pathetic tbh. Khan's gun brings down ships and leaves bodies in pieces whereas fl didn't even kill or maim Luke or Yoda. At least break open the skin FFS.

laughing out loud

quanchi112
Originally posted by Trocity
Khan's punches are slow but his legs are fast, good for running away from Spock ( and Palpatine ). Khan is superior to the geriatric with postural deficiencies.

Tondemonai
Alright, done with humoring you. You want these rules, go to the Movie Versus Forum. Here, fights include all feats stated by the OP to be included (i.e. Palpatine as of RotJ has all his cannon feats up to that point, or legends RotS Anakin), not "movie feats only," that's for the MVF. Khan shouldn't even be mentioned on this forum, let alone used in a thread. My points still stand, Khan doesn't have the Force, nor the speed, to keep him alive in this confrontation. If you have a fetish for public humiliation, or just in general making yourself look like an idiot, you've more than succeeded, you've just fulfilled that enough to last a lifetime. Now please, go get yourself off on some other forum, or just do what Donald Drumpf does and make yourself look like an idiot and preach Nazi beliefs publicly.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Alright, done with humoring you. You want these rules, go to the Movie Versus Forum. Here, fights include all feats stated by the OP to be included (i.e. Palpatine as of RotJ has all his cannon feats up to that point, or legends RotS Anakin), not "movie feats only," that's for the MVF. Khan shouldn't even be mentioned on this forum, let alone used in a thread. My points still stand, Khan doesn't have the Force, nor the speed, to keep him alive in this confrontation. If you have a fetish for public humiliation, or just in general making yourself look like an idiot, you've more than succeeded, you've just fulfilled that enough to last a lifetime. Now please, go get yourself off on some other forum, or just do what Donald Drumpf does and make yourself look like an idiot and preach Nazi beliefs publicly. So you want to ignore the op because you're upset in right and you're wrong. If you want to rely on hyperbole and ignore the real,time examples of his history that's due to your own bias. I rely on the facts not my preconceived notions of what these characters are capable of. Your petty attempts at mockery are worse than your debating tactics. I cite facts you hurl insults. I'm good at making my case you're emotional and weak.

Tondemonai
I apologize for my emotionally driven comments of spite, however, I don't feel that you have put forth any evidence that shows anything that shows Khan surviving, let alone winning, a fight with Sidious

quanchi112
Originally posted by Tondemonai
I apologize for my emotionally driven comments of spite, however, I don't feel that you have put forth any evidence that shows anything that shows Khan surviving, let alone winning, a fight with Sidious Palpatine's combat cowardice

I will show evidence of specific instances of the Emperor of both the galactic empire and the Sith showing extreme cowardice in the midst of battle. This raises a valid question since these guys are both fighting in character. At what point would Palpatine try to cut his losses and avoid any further conflict with Khan Noonien Singh.
Just to note he isn't running from unfair or unarmed combat but whenever the opportunity arises where he might lose and/or die.

1. 2:41-2:43 Palpatine states, "Don't let him kill me." This shows he will beg and plead for someone else to help him escape his current situation if it's dire enough. He didn't have the determination to keep pressing him and acknowledged his vulnerability in this situation. He continues to beg before Anakin ultimately decides to intervene but the point is clearly made.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 1:32-1:37 Yoda states, "If so powerful you are then why leave." This shows the moment Yoda regains his composure and that there is going to be a fair fight Palpatine wants no part of it and tries to exit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

The conclusion one can come to when analyzing these two pieces of evidence is Palpatine will probably be wary of a fight if he can sense the power behind Khan's phaser cannon or sees it in action. Palpatine isn't used to settling things for himself and usually has his apprentice or his men see combat through unless there's no other way out of it. Khan on the other hand is a ruthless combatant who calmly and skillfully tears through his foes with tactical efficiency. Khan doesn't waste time playing with his food. He swallows it whole.

Palpatine's combat buffoonery

Take a look at some of the asinine actions this ruthless dictator exhibits while under the heat of battle. Palpatine doesn't press the advantage when he has it and tends to play with his opponents which is ill advised and has ended up costing him dearly.


1. 2:17-2:57 in this clip we see him shoot force lightning for around forty seconds despite it being deflected back onto him. Why would he wait that long and inflict that much damage into himself before stopping this horribly ineffective attack. This is a very poor decision made under the duress of battle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 44-1:19 seconds we see Yoda is unable to defend himself while Palpatine slowly walks without attacking or pressing his advantage. Yoda then after around 35 seconds later has the strength to recover and he force pushes a completely defenseless Palpatine. What's even more hysterical is this is the buffoon who outwitted the Jedi order. He stands around cackling and allows Yoda over a half a minute to recover and attack him.

3. 1:03 we see Palpatine doesn't press the advantage of having both of his opponents pressed up against the wall and laughs about like a madman. Once again this is another example of him not going for the immediate kill. 1:30 Palpatine is caught off guard and kicked backward before he uses his powers again to gain the advantage. 2:27-3:07 Palpatine gives Maul time to say goodbye to his brother and let the rage build up which isn't wise. He should have pressed his advantage but we see this isn't how Palpatine likes to engage his opponents with a ruthless kill but more or less torture them along the way.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU

4. Now we have the most offensive and moronic decision of all. This is where the emperor tortures his apprentice's son right in front of him for around 0-42 seconds before he even intends on killing him. Close to a minute later he doesn't see a problem with this long drawn out torture of a man's son right in front of him as biting him in the ass.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-dmOrS4Bf2SruLQUC1LmHuZOqTFJDAtA&v=4BOQI-LAEzM

5. At 52 seconds in Palpatine releases Luke from his bonds. At 58 seconds he dismisses the guards. Palpatine willingly dismisses every advantage he had over Luke in an effort to convert one Jedi when he already held the galaxy under his authority.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPe-ly0BHM

6. 1:25 Palpatine admits Luke could destroy us and yet he still dismissed the guards and tortured him over a minute with his father present. Are you kidding me ? This is despicable and offensive to anyone with a rational brain. This can't be explained away. The moment he failed to turn he should have destroyed him quickly. Luke was without a weapon and instead Palpatine gave a speech hissing and snarling at him. Khan isn't the type of guy who gives speeches while combat. That's a huge advantage for Khan.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg

The Ellimist
I don't get it...is Palpatine a coward who will resort to ending the fight as quickly as possible (.ie, snapping his neck), or is he a maniac who loves to draw fights out?

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't get it...is Palpatine a coward who will resort to ending the fight as quickly as possible (.ie, snapping his neck), or is he a maniac who loves to draw fights out? He is a coward who will resort to begging or fleeing from a fair fight if he's in danger in his mind. I mean he arrogantly laughed at Yoda, let him back into the fight, tried fleeing the fight, and then went back to cackling later in the same fight. Palpatine didn't try to immediately end Luke, Yoda, Maul, or Opress.

The Ellimist
OK Quanchi,

Mulling over Palpatine's tactical mistakes doesn't really matter much if you can't explain how Khan is actually going to take advantage of them. There's no Darth Vader standing next to Sidious to toss him down a shaft, nor can Khan get back up from force lightning and telekinetically shove him over a chair. The fight will be over in seconds, and your talking about drawn out tactical implications is therefore irrelevant.

Why is Sidious likely to just kill Khan right away? Well, if we accept TCW episodes, this isn't even much of a question - he clearly chokes those two guards pretty unceremoniously. You claim that he waits too long to do this because they could've shot him in the time they took to ask his identity, but this is where precognition comes into play - had their minds shifted to wanting to shoot him, he could've just choked them a few seconds earlier. It's not like that would lie beyond Palpatine's means or motive. This example gives us a better picture of how he would handle Khan than does his fight against Maul/Savage and Yoda, because in both of those instances he has personal reasons to care more about taunting his adversaries. Here, he's facing someone he'll take no more seriously than those two guards. Mind you, whether he snaps their necks or chokes them is irrelevant - either would kill Khan.

If we're just using the films, we only have two combat scenes with Palpatine; he clearly wastes no time against Windu and company, but he does gloat and crackle against Yoda. Of course, from what he's actually gloating about, it's obvious that his behavior stems largely from the context of the encounter, .ie, facing the grandmaster of his hated enemy right after having pretty much taken over the galaxy. When his future was much more uncertain, like against Windu, he doesn't waste any time. Neither incident is a very good analogy to his fight with Khan, which contains none of the relevant backdrop. In the absence of a clear precedent, then, we need to look to the most reasonable and believable prediction of what Sidous's behavior will be. Just killing Khan outright is the most logical option, fits best with Sidious's goal (to kill Khan), and lies well within both his abilities and intellectual reach. It's therefore more logical to say that he'll leverage his telekinetic abilities, rather than bizarrely stating that he'll forgo doing that to fulfill some sort of desire to duel with a non-Force sensitive. He might enjoy gloating at the grandmaster of the Jedi Order; he doesn't give a f*ck about Khan.

Sidious's ability to insta-kill him from a distance renders this conversation moot. But what if for some inexplicable reason, he decides not to? It's still clearly his fight to lose. Khan can try to shoot him, but Palpatine can:

Rip his gun out of his hand.
Stop his bolts midair, if we don't assume that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Sidious.
Reflect his shots back at him, given your failure to demonstrate how they're more difficult to block than blaster bolts.
Hit him with Force lightning, which can clearly be made fatal given its ability to fling Windu hundreds of feet, but even if it weren't, would still effectively incapacitate him.
Use Force speed Qui Gon/Obi Wan style to close the distance.
Toss his saber at him.


You're basically hoping that a guy who tools people who regularly deal with entire squads of soldiers with semi-automatic weapons would get killed by a single guy with a handheld gun. Even if he does every stupid thing you want him to do, he still wins. Being able to see things before they happen and move things with your mind does that for you.

Zenwolf
I can't believe the whole instance with the Force Lighting thing against Mace was brought up as a legit argument...HELLO, Palpatine wanted Anakin to see that Mace was the enemy and that he was just a helpless old man, hence why he was all "Oh..please...please help me....I don't have the strength..."

Then literally seconds later.

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!" As he blasts Mace out the window.

He was trying to get Anakin over to his side, which worked, that was hardly because Palpatine was weak or anything. Heck even GL(ya know the director/writer so his word here is perfectly viable) even notes that Palps was feigning weakness.

EVEN if you take that absurd argument, he's not gonna be in that position anyway.

quanchi112
You dare attack Khan while I'm offline. You will pay for your insolence.

The_Tempest
Bringing your shenanigans into the SWVF? What happened to the All-Media Versus Forum, btw? mmm

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bringing your shenanigans into the SWVF? What happened to the All-Media Versus Forum, btw? mmm The Sheev wank alerted me. I brought Khan to put it down once and for all.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by quanchi112
The Sheev wank alerted me. I brought Khan to put it down once and for all.

For Sheev's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK Quanchi,

Mulling over Palpatine's tactical mistakes doesn't really matter much if you can't explain how Khan is actually going to take advantage of them. There's no Darth Vader standing next to Sidious to toss him down a shaft, nor can Khan get back up from force lightning and telekinetically shove him over a chair. The fight will be over in seconds, and your talking about drawn out tactical implications is therefore irrelevant.

Why is Sidious likely to just kill Khan right away? Well, if we accept TCW episodes, this isn't even much of a question - he clearly chokes those two guards pretty unceremoniously. You claim that he waits too long to do this because they could've shot him in the time they took to ask his identity, but this is where precognition comes into play - had their minds shifted to wanting to shoot him, he could've just choked them a few seconds earlier. It's not like that would lie beyond Palpatine's means or motive. This example gives us a better picture of how he would handle Khan than does his fight against Maul/Savage and Yoda, because in both of those instances he has personal reasons to care more about taunting his adversaries. Here, he's facing someone he'll take no more seriously than those two guards. Mind you, whether he snaps their necks or chokes them is irrelevant - either would kill Khan.

If we're just using the films, we only have two combat scenes with Palpatine; he clearly wastes no time against Windu and company, but he does gloat and crackle against Yoda. Of course, from what he's actually gloating about, it's obvious that his behavior stems largely from the context of the encounter, .ie, facing the grandmaster of his hated enemy right after having pretty much taken over the galaxy. When his future was much more uncertain, like against Windu, he doesn't waste any time. Neither incident is a very good analogy to his fight with Khan, which contains none of the relevant backdrop. In the absence of a clear precedent, then, we need to look to the most reasonable and believable prediction of what Sidous's behavior will be. Just killing Khan outright is the most logical option, fits best with Sidious's goal (to kill Khan), and lies well within both his abilities and intellectual reach. It's therefore more logical to say that he'll leverage his telekinetic abilities, rather than bizarrely stating that he'll forgo doing that to fulfill some sort of desire to duel with a non-Force sensitive. He might enjoy gloating at the grandmaster of the Jedi Order; he doesn't give a f*ck about Khan.

Sidious's ability to insta-kill him from a distance renders this conversation moot. But what if for some inexplicable reason, he decides not to? It's still clearly his fight to lose. Khan can try to shoot him, but Palpatine can:

Rip his gun out of his hand.
Stop his bolts midair, if we don't assume that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Sidious.
Reflect his shots back at him, given your failure to demonstrate how they're more difficult to block than blaster bolts.
Hit him with Force lightning, which can clearly be made fatal given its ability to fling Windu hundreds of feet, but even if it weren't, would still effectively incapacitate him.
Use Force speed Qui Gon/Obi Wan style to close the distance.
Toss his saber at him.


You're basically hoping that a guy who tools people who regularly deal with entire squads of soldiers with semi-automatic weapons would get killed by a single guy with a handheld gun. Even if he does every stupid thing you want him to do, he still wins. Being able to see things before they happen and move things with your mind does that for you. I didn't post the examples to prove Khan would do something similar I posted them to show his iditioic combat behavior. My claims are based off their behavior and I entered evidence as to suggest why I believe he wouldn't go for the kill ASAP. I believe I proved that. Now you are free to disagree with the outcome what proud Sheev supporter wouldn't but one thing you have to agree with is Khan's larger phaser cannon strapped around his shoulder would leave Sheev in pieces. If Sheev chokes Khan he doesn't die immediately and he still has his gun strapped to his shoulder provided he drops his other phaser rifle. Coupled with his superior cellular regeneration he'd survive a lot longer than random schlub based off this undeniable Khan fact. He'd have a free shot.

Now claiming he would use precog and be one step ahead isn't something you can prove. You can claim it but I believe all of this comes down to reflexes and skills. I've already listed the examples precog failed him. A phaser blast from his gun travels much faster than a Windu kick or a Vader snatch and he wasn't aware of either slower attack before hand.

You also don't have any examples of him snapping necks.

Sheev did know based off their numbers he had to get right down to brass tax. He decimated the weaker Jedi until the two peers remained. I have no problem in seeing Sheev trying to close down the distance between himself and Khan. I feel that's completely in character. Based off the evidence Khan is firing before Sheev attempts force lightning or to use his force powers.

Logically though wouldn't it make more sense to gloat over an enemy you have no fear of rather than someone he deemed a clear threat. In any event Khan is going to start firing ASAP but in no care does Palpatine strike faster than Khan does in any of his action sequences. Undeniable.

**Khan has two guns. One is around his shoulder and one is in his other hand. We also don't have any examples of him at the start of battle ripping anyone's weapons out of their hands.

**Sidious has never done so and this occurred after the other Star Wars films. We can't go back and retroactively apply feats since Kylo did something in the newest film. Food for thought he only stopped one bolt we don't know if these guys have the concentration to maintain multiple bolts frozen in mid air.

**Onus is on you since the bolts do greater damage to armored bodies as well as down Klingon ships in one blast.

**It didn't incapacitate Luke or Windu. Only Yoda briefly but he's a geriatric fraggle with clear gait issues so no surprise there. Khan has superhuman cellular regeneration and took eight stun blasts consecutively after an extended fight and was still on his feet.

**That wasn't combat speed that was sprinting speed to ironically avoid a fight not run towards it.

**Khan can shoot it out of the air. Khan had the battle awareness to take out 20 plus Klingons all converging as well as multiple ships with relative ease. Sheev is one target.


The evidence clearly shows Khan with his dual weapons would have Palpatine basically running for his life. One senate pod thrown at him at a much slower rate than the rapid fire Khan can unleash sent him jumping over to another pod with no awareness of Yoda. He looked all over the place and lost his sense of battle awareness after that one pod was launched at him. There's nowhere to hide from Khan. He can put multiple holes in him in less than a second.

quanchi112
smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Has Ellimist truly given up? smile

Beniboybling
I imagine quanchi gave him cancer, and he had to go to the hospital. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Quanchi cancer is good, though. smile

quanchi112
Khan reigns supreme.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't post the examples to prove Khan would do something similar I posted them to show his iditioic combat behavior. My claims are based off their behavior and I entered evidence as to suggest why I believe he wouldn't go for the kill ASAP. I believe I proved that.

...no, you haven't. If you restrict the analysis to the films, the only examples we have are Palpatine vs. Windu + the B team (where Palpatine actually goes for the kill quickly) and Palpatine vs. Yoda (where Palpatine goes for the FL, and then gloats against someone with whom he had a personal history with). Neither of these cases are analogous to his hypothetical performance against this random Khan guy, which means that we must defer to logic and reasonable predictions, .ie that Sidious would kill Khan using his abilities. Why would he gloat against this random guy with a gun?

This is made all the more ridiculous by your own claim that Sidious is a coward and likes to do whatever it takes to maximize his own chances of survival.

If we include TCW scenes as you have done, this isn't even a question; we have a clear analogy to an encounter with Khan when he faces the two guards, and what does he do? He chokes them. You say that he waits for them to speak; but he has precognition, so if they had thought to pull the trigger he would know and just start choking them a second earlier. Even against Maul and Oppress, his first move is to slam them against a wall.



Based on what? What makes you think his phaser cannon can overpower Sheev? What's Khan going to do? Hope the blasts can knock his saber out of his hands? Even Obi Wan can casually deflect Grievous's saber strikes, and Grievous can dent durasteel with kicks. Sidious and co. can easily deflect blaster bolts that can make hand-sized holes in concrete and blast apart droidekas. Where is your evidence that Khan's mighty phaser cannon would be so overwhelming?



His precog has failed him exactly once, in a situation where Vader is standing right next to him and grabs him. This is not analogous to his ability to deflect shots from an enemy he's clearly aware of.

More importantly though, it's just a nonsensical argument to say that his precognition won't help him because it isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect - Khan might slip on some ice and drop his gun. But his precognition increases the probability that he'll beat Khan relative to not having it at all, and that's what matters. Weaker Force users have deflected blaster shots from multiple enemies simultaneously; why would Sidious be endangered by a single gunman?



roll eyes (sarcastic) He can fling senate pods, I'm sure he can snap necks. Regardless, it's not necessary for him to win - he has choked people, and choking people works.

BTW, what is it with this ridiculous standard of yours, that you need to establish everything happening exactly like it'll happen in this hypothetical to argue it? Because you've never seen Khan firing at a Sith before, so I guess that means he can't fire at Sith Lords - never mind making predictions based on a reasonable catalog of evidence, right?



Why? Sheev has faster reflexes, because he can see things before they happen.



No, because Palpatine has precognition, so he's only going to gloat until his danger sense kicks in, which is still going to be before Khan can do anything.

And Sidious does like to show off...usually with his Force abilities! He uses Force lightning on Yoda, and ragdolls Maul/Oppress. Why wouldn't he show off his ability to disarm Khan with a gesture and then choke him?



...seriously? Vader can do it, Dooku can rip bolted machinery, but apparently Sidious, who can ragdoll senate pods, can't pull a gun out of someone's hands?

Again, by your asinine standards of evidence, you can't argue anything, because we never explicitly see Khan firing his gun at a Sith Lord. Usually we are allowed to make reasonable extrapolations, because that's literally how we do things in real life, whether it be in science or just deciding which groceries to pick. There's no reason to assert that Sidious can't do things well within his power because he doesn't do it in grossly different situations.



He actually freezes Poe at the same time. And Kylo is weaker than Vader, who is weaker than Sheev.



Actually, you're making the argument, and no, Klingon ships can't be just equated with SW vessels or whatever. You aren't actually proving anything.



laughing out loud WTF? Yoda after having fought Sidious for an extended period fell off a senate pod, hit the ground at terminal velocity, and wasn't hurt at all. Even padawan Anakin can do that casually. Yoda was likewise trying to deflect the bolts.

You also conveniently ignored the part where Sidious's lightning can fling Windu hundreds of feet out of a window. At the very least it incapacitates Khan long enough for Sheev to close the distance, at which point the fight is over, if it wasn't already.



Lmao, so they can only use it when they're moving away from people? Why? We're talking about Sheev's ability to close the distance, not how fast he can sidestep or swing his lightsaber.



Which means he can shoot a lightsaber flying through the air now?



erm He got disoriented because he lost sight of Yoda. What does that have to do with anything?

Trocity
Khan runs away even faster than he did against Spock.

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