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No nexus

Novel Vitiate can kill farmers, how does team 1 cope?

You don't respond to PM's, so Fugg you

I'm thinking if I should make a new gmail.

Why not use your current one?

Nice one. Leaning team 2 in a close fight.

Vitiate beats Caedus while Arcann stonewalls Vader.

Vader solos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate beats Caedus while Arcann stonewalls Vader.

Lol.

Caedus blitzes Vitiate while Vader ragdolls Arcann.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate beats Caedus while Arcann stonewalls Vader.



Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Vader solos.

Rip

Leaning team one tbh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol.

Caedus blitzes Vitiate while Vader ragdolls Arcann.

Lmao.

Vitiate mindrapes Vader while Arcann tanks Caedus.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Leaning team one tbh

Team 2. Drew's shit writing aside, Vitiate should be the strongest playa on the field, and I think Arcann can hold his shit together long enough against Vader.

Vader solos armies larger than the ones that made Arcann a cripple. estahuh

Nobody said Vader wasn't stronger than Arcann.

But Vitiate's too great an asset.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao.

Vitiate mindrapes Vader while Arcann tanks Caedus.

When did Vitiate ever mindrape someone on Vader's level? Even Valkorion couldn't mindrape the Outlander, lol.

I don't see any feats of novel Vitiate's that put him on Caedus's level.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nobody said Vader wasn't stronger than Arcann.

But Vitiate's too great an asset.
/Vitiate tries to mindrape Vader
/Vader speeds in and guts him
/GG

And Caedus rapes whoever he goes up against.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
/Vitiate tries to mindrape Vader
/Vader speeds in and guts him
/GG

And Caedus rapes whoever he goes up against.

High quality notions

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Caedus deflects bombardments larger than the ones that made Arcann a cripple. estahuh

Ok we get it Arcann is the weakest fighter on the field

Vitiate strongest tho

Arcann goes down fast, and Vitiate won't be able to win this on his own. Not with his performance against Revan in mind.

^

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Arcann goes down fast, and Vitiate won't be able to win this on his own. Not with his performance against Revan in mind.

Not only does Arcann not go down fast,

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Drew's shit writing aside

Vader shouldn't be lasting long at all against Vitiate. Just like Revan. Or Arcann lasts longer against Vader than Caedus does against Vitiate

>Arcann doesn't go down fast
>gets one-shotted by his weakened father while flailing his lightsaber randomly

If novel Vitiate does anything remotely like he did in the novel, he'll die. Caedus is much better back up than Meetra is. Period. And kek at Caedus dying before Arcann does.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>Arcann doesn't go down fast
>gets one-shotted by his weakened father while flailing his lightsaber randomly

If novel Vitiate does anything remotely like he did in the novel, he'll die. Caedus is much better back up than Meetra is. Period. And kek at Caedus dying before Arcann does.

>Implying that Vader wouldn't get oneshotted while flailing his lightsaber randomly

>FFS Ahsoka lasted quality time against Vader, who's very likely below The Outlander

> an hero

Well I don't doubt Vitiate falls against Vader AND Caedus. And yeah, Caedus would die before Arcann would. Viti's strongest attack had a Vader tier force user on the ground screaming in agonizing pain in seconds, and barring Drew's shit writing, he'd unleash that shit sooner rather than later. And Arcann lasts longer than Ahsoka Tano.

Skillz, you can't handwave Vitiate's poor performance with Drew's bad writing when Drew's writing is what makes "novel Vitiate" exist as a character. What happened still happened; whether it's from bad writing or some sort of necessary plot, it's useless to guess what the "real" Vitiate would've done - Drew's Vitiate is the "real" one.

Caedus is probably faster than Revan, and may have had time to close the gap.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Skillz, you can't handwave Vitiate's poor performance with Drew's bad writing when Drew's writing is what makes "novel Vitiate" exist as a character. What happened still happened; whether it's from bad writing or some sort of necessary plot, it's useless to guess what the "real" Vitiate would've done - Drew's Vitiate is the "real" one.

Caedus is probably faster than Revan, and may have had time to close the gap.

I don't even consider it a poor performance at peak value. oneshotting Revan with his strongest attack is pretty damned impressive, and is what makes me believe he wins this for his team. Not only that, but taking it at face value, Caedus wouldn't be closing the gap when Revan felt a well placed lightsaber throw or force attack wouldn't. Even furthermore, going by the novel, there's no way to really defend against Vitiate's form of mental domination if you're not prepared for it, hence why Revan had to teach Scourge and Meetra a specific technique. Hell, even a Revan who was prepared for it had to resort to doing some crazy force-in-balance blast.

Jacen was too powerful for UnUTHUL to dominate mentally, and Unu controlled an entire hive world of Kiliks and afflicted Luke with TP.

Vitiate's TP isn't doing shit

Revan was powerful enough to resist the mental infiltrations of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years.

It was still pretty clear in the novel that Revan couldn't overwhelm Vitiate's TP domination through raw power in the force.

Ahsoka's fight with Vader was only cut short because of environmental circumstances; it's probable she would have lasted longer.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even furthermore, going by the novel, there's no way to really defend against Vitiate's form of mental domination if you're not prepared for it, hence why Revan had to teach Scourge and Meetra a specific technique.It's never stated to be some kind of special technique, merely that he'd teach them how to defend themselves.

Nor is there anything particularly unique or special about Vitiate's TP.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan was powerful enough to resist the mental infiltrations of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years.

It was still pretty clear in the novel that Revan couldn't overwhelm Vitiate's TP domination through raw power in the force. I think you'll find that those statements contradict one another.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's never stated to be some kind of special technique, merely that he'd teach them how to defend themselves.

Nor is there anything particularly unique or special about Vitiate's TP.

Yes, Revan teaches them how to shield themselves from Vitiate's TP. Given that Meetra in particular has gone through Nihilus, (who's mere presence mentally enslaves beings) and the horrors of Malachor V and Nathema, her needing to learn how to defend against a TP assault does sort of imply that the TP in question may be unique.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You'll find that those statements contradict one another.

Not at all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, Revan teaches them how to shield themselves from Vitiate's TP. Given that Meetra in particular has gone through Nihilus, (who's mere presence mentally enslaves beings) and the horrors of Malachor V and Nathema, her needing to learn how to defend against a TP assault does sort of imply that the TP in question may be unique.Right, but now your assuming Revan's tutelage was necessary, when at best we can only assume it was helpful. Nor was Revan aware of what Meetra had experienced.Kinda do. If Revan couldn't overwhelm Vitiate's TP as of the novel, he wouldn't have gone and done so while incarcerated.

Lol, "Revan teaches them a specific technique to resist his TP."

"Eh, probably pointless. Drew just put it in for chuckles."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>Arcann doesn't go down fast
>gets one-shotted by his weakened father while flailing his lightsaber randomly

Valkorion wasn't weakened at that point. And that was a few years before Arcann's prime.

Arcann's feat against Valkorions lightning shows an incredible defensive ability, Vader isn't getting through him any time soon. And he's not being him in sabers quickly, if at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, "Revan teaches them a specific technique to resist his TP."

"Eh, probably pointless. Drew just put it in for chuckles."Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's never stated to be some kind of special technique, merely that he'd teach them how to defend themselves. And this applies to sabers, how?

That is a special technique. Darth Revan was a massively talented telepath and was taught by Traya, another massively talented telepath. He still got owned instantly. It's safe to say all standard techniques are worthless. Revan has to know Vitiates tricks, to know how to counter him.

Arcann was beating the Outlander is sabers. Considering how insanely skilled all of the Outlanders can be (except Thor), that's pretty ****ing good. Also he was specifically noted to have a "nearly unbeatable defense". Vader certainly needs time to crack Arcann in any respect, if he can at all.

Right, but it was Jedi Revan, not Darth Revan, and when his mind was in a vulnerable and pliable state.

It's evident that Revan's personal experience with the Emperor made him better prepared to defend himself, which is what we would expect, but you continue to assume experience is the only effective counter. Against Zannah's complex telepathic techniques Bane discovered the only way to defend himself was sheer willpower, did that knowledge nonetheless prep him to shield his mind? Yes. But it was hardly necessary.

There is no basis to assume that without this "special knowledge" anyone facing off against Vitiate will be up the creek without a paddle, and frankly that line of reasoning is easily susceptible to a no-limits fallacy. Caedus has defended his mind against one of the most powerful telepathic entities in galactic history, that proof should be sufficient.

Concerning Outlander, a decent showing I guess, if we assume he wasn't weakened, but regarding that quote, how do we know its referring to his saber abilities?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, but it was Jedi Revan, not Darth Revan, and when his mind was in a vulnerable and pliable state.

It's evident that Revan's personal experience with the Emperor made him better prepared to defend himself, which is what we would expect, but you continue to assume experience is the only effective counter. Against Zannah's complex telepathic techniques Bane discovered the only way to defend himself was sheer willpower, did that knowledge nonetheless prep him to shield his mind? Yes. But it was hardly necessary.

There is no basis to assume that without this "special knowledge" anyone facing off against Vitiate will be up the creek without a paddle, and frankly that line of reasoning is easily susceptible to a no-limits fallacy. Caedus has defended his mind against one of the most powerful telepathic entities in galactic history, that proof should be sufficient.

Concerning Outlander, a decent showing I guess, if we assume he wasn't weakened, but regarding that quote, how do we know its referring to his saber abilities?

Revan by this point had already learned everything from Traya and plundered Malachor. And he wasn't vulnerable or pliable. He was walking into a fight.

Zannah didn't use telepathy, she used sorcery. Revan says that this time he can shield his mind because he knows Vitiates tricks and technique. Indicating that he couldn't before because his lack of knowledge hampered him. And I'm not suggesting only experience can counter. Obviously if you already knew the counter to Vitiates technique.... but nothing suggests Vader or Caedus know that.

It's not a no-limits fallacy when there is a clear limit. A technique that requires a specific counter and others are ineffective isn't a no-limits fallacy. If you're referring to Unuthul, his will was spread out over his whole colony and he was influencing other Jedi at the same time. Jacen merely resisted better than they did. And anyway, wasn't Unuthul himself being mentally influenced? By some shitty Dark Jedi at that. He was mighty when focusing all his attention on Luke, but iirc he never tried that with Jacen and failed. When his focus was spread out he wasn't absolute.

It's referring to both the Force and sabers, since he would be defending with both, obviously. The quote: "Arcann's prodigious skill with the Force and training with both the Knights and Scions of Zakuul gives him a nearly unbeatable defense."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan by this point had already learned everything from Traya and plundered Malachor. And he wasn't vulnerable or pliable. He was walking into a fight.Cool, still not as knowledgeable as he'd become though. And every source on that encounter makes explicit that because Revan (and Malak) were at the precipice of the dark side, it was made easy for Vitiate to corrupt and dominate them. With individuals like Anakin and Luke setting a precedent for being mentally pliable when in that nebulous state. Hence the reason they succumbed.Those aren't mutually exclusive.

And so did Bane, but nonetheless the counter he developed was pretty basic, though effective, and not necessarily something impossible to accomplish without prep. Its a no brainer that being literally mentally prepared against a TP attack as Revan was is going to useful, but that doesn't make a requirement.You are and it is. If we accept your assertions the only way to prove anyone has a counter to this technique is through personal experience of it, and discovery of this unnamed "technique", against anyone who lacks that it can be limitlessly asserted nothing suggests they know it and therefore they're ****ed.

So I guess Sidious, UnuThul, Luke and the Son would be fodderised as well. Lmao.If he can TP Luke Skywalker at full power does it really matter? Not when Vitiate can't even overpower the Outlander I wouldn't think. Fair enough.

Team 2

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, still not as knowledgeable as he'd become though. And every source on that encounter makes explicit that because Revan (and Malak) were at the precipice of the dark side, it was made easy for Vitiate to corrupt and dominate them. With individuals like Anakin and Luke setting a precedent for being mentally pliable when in that nebulous state. Hence the reason they succumbed.
You make it sound like as if breaking Revan and Malak was an easy task and any accomplished telepath could pull it off against them. This is a logical fallacy in itself. Being closer to the Dark Side doesn't makes you weak-willed.

Anakin Skywalker was slowly lured to the Dark Side, the process lasted several years.

Luke Skywalker willingly embraced the Dark Side during the events of DE and Palpatine knew that the former would betray him at some point. Palpatine had to defeat Luke in single combat in order to break him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You are and it is. If we accept your assertions the only way to prove anyone has a counter to this technique is through personal experience of it, and discovery of this unnamed "technique", against anyone who lacks that it can be limitlessly asserted nothing suggests they know it and therefore they're ****ed.

So I guess Sidious, UnuThul, Luke and the Son would be fodderised as well.
But there isn't a single example of someone successfully resisting Vitiate's telepathic assault in the first encounter.

I am fully aware of telepathic powers of UnuThul and Lord Nyax and I find Vitiate's telepathic abilities more intense in comparison. Even The Son doesn't seems to have edge over Vitiate in this area. This is not just based on number of individuals successfully possessed but some "inner details" as well.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If he can TP Luke Skywalker at full power does it really matter? Not when Vitiate can't even overpower the Outlander I wouldn't think.
Assuming that the Outlander is Hero of Tython, he have experienced Vitiate's telepathic powers beforehand and apparently developed countermeasures against them. But I wouldn't put much stock in the assumption that Vitiate couldn't affect the Outlander with his telepathic powers at all. We witness Vitiate manipulating Outlander (of any class) in the same manner.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You make it sound like as if breaking Revan and Malak was an easy task and any accomplished telepath could pull it off against them. This is a logical fallacy in itself. Being closer to the Dark Side doesn't makes you weak-willed.

Anakin Skywalker was slowly lured to the Dark Side, the process lasted several years.

Luke Skywalker willingly embraced the Dark Side during the events of DE and Palpatine knew that the former would betray him at some point. Palpatine had to defeat Luke in single combat in order to break him.Nope, that's not what I said.

And that's not my point, my point is that when Luke and Anakin were on the precipe of the dark side, as Revan and Malak were, they were mentally instable, and easily influenced. Anakin to slaughtering innocents, turning against his friends and almost murdering his wife, Luke to striking down his father and becoming Palpatine's apprentice, which would have led to the death of all his friends, and then in DE, under the dark side's influence Palpatine made him forget his name.

Being close to the dark side doesn't make you weak willed, but being between worlds as they were does. How they got into that state being entirely beside the point.So? You're appealing to ignorance, what there is not a single example of Vitiate dominating someone of Caedus' caliber without extenuating circumstances.

And lmao at putting him above the Son when he know nothing of the latters TP.Apparently? Can you clarify on that with a source? And with the HoT alone he is particular in admitting the Outlander is too powerful for him to dominate, why ignore that?

Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.

I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.

I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right?

Well obviously...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, that's not what I said.

And that's not my point, my point is that when Luke and Anakin were on the precipe of the dark side, as Revan and Malak were, they were mentally instable, and easily influenced. Anakin to slaughtering innocents, turning against his friends and almost murdering his wife, Luke to striking down his father and becoming Palpatine's apprentice, which would have led to the death of all his friends, and then in DE, under the dark side's influence Palpatine made him forget his name.

Being close to the dark side doesn't make you weak willed, but being between worlds as they were does. How they got into that state being entirely beside the point.
Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the Dark Side at that time, I agree. However, Vitiate broke them with barely an effort.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? You're appealing to ignorance, what there is not a single example of Vitiate dominating someone of Caedus' caliber without extenuating circumstances.
Vitiate demonstrated the capability to influence an entire planet's populace alongside Jedi Masters, Sith and battle-hardened troops with his telepathic powers. And you still question his prowess in telepathy.

Another revelation is that Vitiate can telepathically influence even the most powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And lmao at putting him above the Son when he know nothing of the latters TP.
You think that I lack knowledge of Mortis story arc?

The Son possessing Ahsoka Tano is not something that Vitiate could not replicate. I'd say that Vitiate could break/possess even the likes of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Apparently? Can you clarify on that with a source? And with the HoT alone he is particular in admitting the Outlander is too powerful for him to dominate, why ignore that?
That is what I make of the Hero of Tython's implied invulnerability to telepathic influence. I don't buy it.

Vitiate managed to bind himself to the Outlander (Hero of Tython) against the wishes of the latter? Check

Vitiate could make the Outlander (Hero of Tython) see developments across the galaxy through powerful illusions? Check

If a player chose Vitiate's assistance during battles, the latter would begin to force his decisions upon the Outlander (irrespective of the Class) at some point? Check

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does SWL seriously think that Vitiate's telepathy is some "special technique" that nobody who hasn't specifically encountered it before can possibly combat, no matter how powerful? And his reasoning for this is that Revan taught Meetra and Scourge methods to defend against it - and this must mean that you have to have learned these methods. To call this a bad leap in logic would be quite the understatement.
Considering Vitiate's telepathic abilities, you never know for certain.

Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence with great difficulty by strengthening her mental defenses beforehand (since the events of SoR) but Jedi (and/or Sith) far stronger then her couldn't.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I suppose Caedus just oneshots with shatterpoint then. Vitiate's never seen it, right?
The Emperor's Wrath had shatterpoint abilities.

Clearly Lana learned the special technique from Revan's ghost. No other explanation.

Team two dominates.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Lana Beniko managed to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence with great difficulty by strengthening her mental defenses beforehand (since the events of SoR) but Jedi (and/or Sith) far stronger then her couldn't.

Such as?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Such as?
Revan?
Malak?
Hero of Tython?
Tol Braga?
Surro?

Do also keep in mind that Vitiate suppressed powers of Vaylin for a long time as well. A different showing but telepathic in nature.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan?

What Beni said.

kek

And how exactly is Lana so far behind the Hero of Tython or Braga in Act II, when she's nowhere near that far behind them in SoR?

Right. When she was a toddler.

Lana is really far behind HoT and Braga, lol. IIRC she was barely powerful enough to be on the Council.

You recall wrong because Lana isn't on the Council, but since neither is the Wrath or the Hero of Tython, and neither of the Councils were hardly ever based on power alone, that's some pretty shit logic to begin with.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What Beni said.
Vitiate broke him (and Malak) with barely an effort. Do not forget this.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And how exactly is Lana so far behind the Hero of Tython or Braga in Act II, when she's nowhere near that far behind them in SoR?
Those two are officially counted among the most powerful Force-users of their era. Lana Beniko is not.

Surro was also more powerful then Lana but she failed to resist Vitiate's influence for long.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Right. When she was a toddler.
The suppression continued up to the time of her adulthood. It ended at the time of setback that Vitiate suffered from disruption of his grand ritual.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You recall wrong because Lana isn't on the Council, but since neither is the Wrath or the Hero of Tython, and neither of the Councils were hardly ever based on power alone, that's some pretty shit logic to begin with.

Minister of Sith Intelligence. Whatever its not like there was ever a replacement for Zhorrid so she might as well have been the Councillor for the Sphere of Imperial Intelligence. Regardless, she was barely strong enough to get such a high position, whereas Braga and the HoT are among the strongest Jedi alive. Act II HoT would stomp Lana.

Lol @ the Dark Council not being predicated on strength, noob.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate broke him (and Malak) with barely an effort. Do not forget this.

Because of the reason Beni gave, which is the reason the book gave. Do not forget this.

The Hero of Tython? Yes. Tol Braga? Not really.

Except for having an exception connection to the Force that impresses her peers and the Dark Council. Sounds like you just made up a list of names because you don't actually have any gauge to judge her, or anyone in TOR really, by.

You still haven't given what this is based on. She's literally a one off, who's only impressive showings are under Vitiate's control.

Because she was a vegetable. It's kind of hard to grow when you can barely think.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Regardless, she was barely strong enough to get such a high position, whereas Braga and the HoT are among the strongest Jedi alive. Act II HoT would stomp Lana.

Citation needed.

Read what I said again.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Hero of Tython? Yes. Tol Braga? Not really.

Except for having an exception connection to the Force that impresses her peers and the Dark Council. Sounds like you just made up a list of names because you don't actually have any gauge to judge her, or anyone in TOR really, by.

Braga was the head of a team comprised of the "strongest" "most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order" and is clearly second only to the Hero on that team. He also fought a Dark Councillor for several days. Obviously he's among the top Force Users in the era.

"Exceptional" connections to the Force are nothing to the Hero getting called the strongest Jedi from Tython onwards. Her impressing the Council is nothing compared to Braga and the Hero being Dark Council+.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Braga was the head of a team comprised of the "strongest" "most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order" and is clearly second only to the Hero on that team. He also fought a Dark Councillor for several days. Obviously he's among the top Force Users in the era.

The team comprised of a nutjob and someone with a weakening connection to the Force, who can't even keep up with droids by his own admission, is apparently, "the strongest in the Order" or that statement isn't accurate. Especially since the only person there that is the strongest in the Order is the HoT and Braga.

Which isn't even true, but let's pretend for a while it is.

Why? Being felicitated by the Jedi Council is more impressive than being felicitated by the Dark Council why again?

And since we're talking about the HoT and Braga, I'll take that as a concession.

Well I wrote the Respect thread that says it is true, but ok.

Being called exceptional isn't the same as being called the strongest Jedi alive. Duh. Also Braga and the HoT both actually beat Dark Council member level opponents so its not just being called anything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because of the reason Beni gave, which is the reason the book gave. Do not forget this.
Here:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Intended message is that while Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the Dark Side at that time, Vitiate didn't had to exert to break them either. Therefore, even in a more fair scenario, the end-result would have been the same.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Hero of Tython? Yes. Tol Braga? Not really.
I don't see the possibility of Lana Beniko dominating Hero of Tython in a confrontation like this:

http://i.imgur.com/u67VOhD.gif

http://i.imgur.com/iltlO45.gif

Raw power aside, Tol Braga was also among the most strong-willed Jedi of the era. He was recognized as the conscience of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except for having an exception connection to the Force that impresses her peers and the Dark Council. Sounds like you just made up a list of names because you don't actually have any gauge to judge her, or anyone in TOR really, by.
Lana is above average. I give you that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You still haven't given what this is based on. She's literally a one off, who's only impressive showings are under Vitiate's control.
Vitiate didn't augment powers of any individual under his influence on Ziost. Other 'possessed' hosts were dropping like flies but Surro withstood all kinds of abuse in her path.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because she was a vegetable. It's kind of hard to grow when you can barely think.
This is your assumption.

Vaylin's powers began to manifest when she was in the womb of her mother.

Why is this comparison even being made? Vitiate only dominated their minds after they were incapacitated, which if anything implies he couldn't when they were conscious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the Dark Side at that time, I agree. However, Vitiate broke them with barely an effort.Actually the quote says he turned them to the dark side with barely an effort, not necessarily broke their minds.

Regardless, we are discussing a notably stronger Force user here.Nope, just your assessment. Note that he did those things as a spirit, which tend to be more telepathically dominating as they are able to fully possess their targets.

I'm not confident that's something he could achieve in corporeal form. But as you pointed out his powers didn't stretch beyond possessing individuals like Lana Beniko.Which is evidently hyperbole and/or relative to the era. Nor is Caedus a Jedi.Typo, I meant we. As in, we've hardly seen what the Son is telepathically capable of.It isn't really up for debate. The HoT says he's too powerful for Valkorion to dominate him, and Valkorion agrees with him. Plain as day my friend.While he was unconscious, and could only influence him with permission.Sidious made Yoda see potent visions as well, but Yoda remained too powerful for him to dominate.Which only implies letting Valkorion in gave him greater hold over you. Note that he doesn't if you don't, despite evidently wanting to.

Caedus could solo tbh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus could solo tbh
This is getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Vitiate had just turned them to the Dark Side then why would they feel the need to lessen his influence over them at some point?I didn't say he didn't break them, only that all its stated he did was ease was complete there fall. That doesn't mean it took a fraction of his power to warp their minds as well. OK, but Revan and Malak are still individuals, not a collective entity, even if they did face Vitiate together.Lmao, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, spirits/entities are able to possess people, which yes makes them more mentally dominating whether they are stronger or not. Case in point Kallig alone possessed everyone and anyone who entered the Sith Temple, hundreds of beings, many of them Sith Lords.

Valkorion can't possess people in corporeal form, it's that simple.
And I doubt Lana even with her mental defences strengthened in on level with Caedus.I doubt Lana even with her mental defences strengthened in on level with Caedus.Seeing as his powers cap at the Outlander, I'd say it is.

And that's a feat for Nyax, not Vitiate.

Regardless, its era bound and neither does it preclude the target being unconscious, or the use of nexus and ritual.Difference here being Valkorion actually agrees with you. "Valkorion being nice to him" being a laughable claim with no basis The last thing Valkorion is, is nice, lmao!Right, because the dark side burst, the kind that killed Darth Vader. They are quite potent.Right, so canonically the Outlander is probably not the smuggler, clever inference.

Firstly, the fact that their being on the precipice of the dark side made them easier to control doesn't mean that all Vitiate did was turn them. But it's literally stated that their temptation made them easier to control - that's neither in dispute nor mutually exclusive from their being dominated.

Secondly, the fact that they were able to eventually break free from his grasp through sheer force of will suggests that a sufficient strength of will would have been enough to resist him outright, unless if Vitiate's initial domination is literally infinitely more powerful than his lingering effects. It's not some sort of magic insta-kill move that nobody can guard against.

Indeed, the Outlander is more powerful than what Valkorion could control, so color me skeptical that novel Vitiate could do anything to a guy who resisted UnuThul.



The second question is irrelevant, seeing as how it's not like Revan and Malak were able to combine their mental resistance or something. Caedus's status above Vader and performance against Luke certainly puts him above post mando wars Revan, who hasn't really done anything to put him anywhere near that level.

And if you wish to demonstrate otherwise, just saying "he's a very powerful Jedi" isn't enough - we've talked about this, you need to do comparative analysis. Get working on it.



Is this supposed to mean something? lol



Not to nitpick, but this isn't what a logical fallacy is...



Ah, so he isn't weaker as a spirit than as a living person. Well, thanks for preempting anyone making that argument.



This fight is novel Vitiate, BTW.



This is hilarious. You actually think you're some sort of brilliant debater, lol.







He broke Luke, lol.

Team 1 is more balanced, but Team 2 possesses the MVP...

Nah. Caedus > Vitiate and Vader >>> Arcann.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus > Vitiate
Not even close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nah. Caedus > Vitiate and Vader >>> Arcann.
Joke of the century. It is not even funny.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not even close.

As an overall combatant? Sure. Nexus-amped Vitiate can't overpower Revan with his uncharged lightning, and indeed gets knocked on his ass by it. He subsequently gets disarmed like a joke by Meetra's saber throw, and almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower.

Novel Vitiate isn't very impressive tbh. As of that point in time, the most he's done in combative circumstances is to dominate pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, which you don't even think is very impressive, kill a dark council with prep and mysterious circumstances, and kill his featless father. Even if he exceeds Caedus in raw power, he's a sh*t combatant who doesn't know how to deal with fighting someone he can't just outright dominate.

Caedus, meanwhile, demonstrates a significantly superior acumen and acclimation to actual combat, can engage both from a distance and in melee, and has a ridiculous damage soak. I also wouldn't be surprised if he could fool Vitiate with his illusions, given that he's done it with Luke.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As an overall combatant? Sure. Nexus-amped Vitiate can't overpower Revan with his uncharged lightning, and indeed gets knocked on his ass by it. He subsequently gets disarmed like a joke by Meetra's saber throw, and almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower.

Novel Vitiate isn't very impressive tbh. As of that point in time, the most he's done in combative circumstances is to dominate pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, which you don't even think is very impressive, kill a dark council with prep and mysterious circumstances, and kill his featless father. Even if he exceeds Caedus in raw power, he's a sh*t combatant who doesn't know how to deal with fighting someone he can't just outright dominate.

Caedus, meanwhile, demonstrates a significantly superior acumen and acclimation to actual combat, can engage both from a distance and in melee, and has a ridiculous damage soak. I also wouldn't be surprised if he could fool Vitiate with his illusions, given that he's done it with Luke.

Vitiate was surprised by Meetra because he wasn't aware she was in a position to attack him and he thought the droid so inconsequential as to be not worth paying attention to it. Not exactly sure how either is relevant in a 1 on 1 fight where he'll be totally focused on Caedus. Caedus isn't going to have help pop out of his ass to save it. I mean Jacen almost got killed by Mara who utterly outmaneuvered him. Not exactly relevant here though.

Vitiate was at this point so powerful that Revan could barely affect a mere drone drawing on his power and wiped out entire Dark Council's. Caedus' force attacks will do nothing and Caedus hasn't demonstrated defense against lightning remotely on par with Revan's. Even if you were right about his combat abilities, unfortunately he pretty much can outright dominate Caedus just like he did to Revan.

Also lol, Luke made Jacen his utter b*tch with illusions. He literally humiliated him in front of his own army.

Hmm? Still seeing a distinction made between warping and falling. Thanks for highlighting it. Cool. Still not the same.Do you have a point? Those spirits/entities that can possess people, like Valkorion, are still more telepathically potent.Lmao. Which he achieved through extracting his essence and/or extensive ritual, apparatus, prep, etc. you seriously think he could pull that off in a combat situation?Why should we assume she is? Its not as if Surro is anywhere near Caedus either.

But OK, it doesn't really matter as he was non-coporeal.Jedi spirits don't have "energy". They are cosmic beings. All Meetra could have done is strengthened resolve.

Regardless its irrelevant considering he did so for three hundred years despite Vitiate having the Dread Masters for support, his target being unconscious and being mentally linked to his mind.

Of course Revan could resist the Emperor without those massive disadvantages. Orly? When has Vitiate TP'ed a Luke tier Force user?Does it cover galactic events post-TOR?Exactly, if Valkorion could dominate the Outlander straight up, he wouldn't be messing around with all this manipulation crap. Evidently that's beyond his capability.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hmm? Still seeing a distinction made between warping and falling. Thanks for highlighting it.
Vitiate completed their fall warping their minds. Why is this even a debate?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool. Still not the same.


3 + 1 = 4

Even if Revan and Malak were single entity, Vitiate would have overwhelmed it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you have a point? Those spirits/entities that can possess people, like Valkorion, are still more telepathically potent.
Yes: Spirits - that can posses people - acquired this ability during corporeal existence and retained this ability after their corporeal demise. No rocket science here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao. Which he achieved through extracting his essence and/or extensive ritual, apparatus, prep, etc. you seriously think he could pull that off in a combat situation?
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/files/2013/09/Facepalm.jpg

Vitiate could use Essence Transfer for the said purpose.

And why Vitiate would not be able to posses another individual during combat situation? Read this:

Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."

We (as players) also witness Vitiate possessing countless individuals on Ziost. Your non-corporeal vs. corporeal theory in this regard doesn't have any credibility.

I assume that you are a grown-up person, Beni. I shouldn't re-cite official statements again and again for you to grasp and understand.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why should we assume she is? Its not as if Surro is anywhere near Caedus either.
http://imagineeringnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/the-point.jpg

My point is that being more powerful then Lana Beniko is not a guaranteed defense against Vitiate's telepathic influence.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But OK, it doesn't really matter as he was non-coporeal.
So you are admitting that Vitiate could break/possess Darth Caedus? Good.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Jedi spirits don't have "energy". They are cosmic beings. All Meetra could have done is strengthened resolve.

Regardless its irrelevant considering he did so for three hundred years despite Vitiate having the Dread Masters for support, his target being unconscious and being mentally linked to his mind.
Spirits are manifestations of energy irrespective of their alignment. Darth Nox managed to bind a Jedi spirit to himself as well, just like a Sith spirit.

Revan wasn't unconscious during the ordeal; he regained his senses during captivity. An unconscious person wouldn't be able to resist or would he?

Revan managed to resist that long because he was able to replenish his strength by siphoning energy of Meetra Surik's spiritual presence nearby whenever he would grow weak. Nonetheless, there were consequences for resisting telepathic influence of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for that long; the ordeal would lead to Revan's fracture. Nonetheless, Revan became an exception in this regard, not the norm.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Of course Revan could resist the Emperor without those massive disadvantages.
No.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Orly? When has Vitiate TP'ed a Luke tier Force user?
Raw power is not as relevant as you assume it to be in this case.

Lord Nyax had the ability to break Luke Skywalker with his telepathic abilities. So Lord Nyax was more powerful as well?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Does it cover galactic events post-TOR?
Why would it not?

The revelation is not that Vitiate could break any Jedi that existed up to his time. Its context is broader.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, if Valkorion could dominate the Outlander straight up, he wouldn't be messing around with all this manipulation crap. Evidently that's beyond his capability.
http://imagineeringnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/the-point.jpg

Vitiate's intent was to manipulate and brainwash the Outlander to do his bidding. His intent was not to take control of the Outlander and use him as his pwn because he attempted this before and it was a short-term gain. The Outlander - as an ally - and ruler of the Eternal Empire was more appealing.

Has anybody in TOR ever shown anything close to the combative/general speed of Caedus? Guy may well blitz tbh.

Aryn Leneer was in multiple places at once and moving so fast milliseconds seemed like minutes or something. Marr moved so fast he seemed to teleport to Darth Lachris (iirc her name). The HoT, Satele, Zallow, the Wrath and others have blitzed multiple Jedi and Sith at once. Revan and Vitiate had an entire battle in a few seconds (compared to Caedus' timekeeping in his Katarn duel, Revan and Vitiate's duel was faster imo).

Speed feats are kinda crapshoots.

This will be my last response LeG, do your best to learn something.Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate completed their fall warping their minds. Why is this even a debate?You mean he warped their minds after completing their fall. No it doesn't, goodness.

Malak and Revan did not combine their powers into a single TP defence, therefore no, you cannot claim Vitiate could overwhelm them if they were a single entity."Grown-up person", lmao.

No sources you have raised proves he can perform this in a combat situation.

The only instance of that happening is Bane, which 1. Required physical contact and 2. Resulted in the destruction of his physical body (that might not be the case for Vitiate, but at the very least his body would be dispossessed and vulnerable).

It was a last ditch attempt for Bane and I doubt Vitiate would get that desperate. I mean really, essence transfer in combat? Be reasonable. It certainly has no bearing on his ability to dominate Caedus with his standard telepathy alone.So your applying a no-limits fallacy then? Gotcha.Seeing as non-corporeal Valkorion couldn't even break/possess the HoT? No lmao.No, but they are cosmic beings. They don't have a connection to the living Force.

Sith Spirits cling to the physical plane, and therefore living energy, Jedi spirits do the opposite and are rarely able to effect the physical plane in profound ways, and never have they been depicted as a source of considerable power.
It's unlikely Meetra would have been a notable well of strength for him at all.

Regardless, as I said given the circumstances, it's largely a moot point. All it does it mitigate the significant disadvantages he was up against. The Revan novel implying all it made possible was his ability to invade the Emperor's own mind:

"Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay."

I also forgot to mention was that Vitiate was siphoning Revan's power on top of all this. Really it's kind of sad that despite all that, he still couldn't get into Revan's head. Compelling.I'll take that as a no, hence Nyax is the stronger telepath. Erm, it's not a question that warrants a speculative answer.

Does or does not the codex entry describe, implicitly or explicitly, events post-TOR? The answer is no, it does not, it only refers to events up until the SWTOR time period.

You have no basis therefore to assume it has any authority on subsequent eras, the statement is no broader than Vitiate's accolade as the "most powerful Sith." i.e. era bound.Brainwash and manipulate to do his bidding is what he did to the HoT before, and it's what he did to Revan and Malak. Last time the HoT broke free from his control, and now the HoT is too powerful for Valkorion to brainwash instantly by his own omission.

Those are the facts.

Revan's mental war against Vitiate was more of a success on Revan's part, if that's what you're trying to argue, yeah. Revan got "centuries of knowledge" from him, postponed the Great Galactic War for three centuries, and then persuaded the Emperor to initiate the Treaty of Courscant. In contrast, even with the aid of the Dread Masters, Vitiate was able to pull forth little of Revan's actual memories, retrieve the location of the Foundry, was unable to turn him back to Darth Revan, and instead led him on his road to become a zombie powerhouse destined to do whatever it took to kill him.

More like destined to throw a phoenix down on him because he was so insane and traumatized he thought helping Vitiate come back to life was a solid plan.

I recently discussed to SupremeSkillz about this and we believe Revan's plan was to wage a mental war against Vitiate, similiar to that of Darth Zannah vs Darth Bane at the end of the third novel, and then thus vanquish him forever that way. In such a case, it's not that ridiculous for Revan to assume that he would have lost to the creature he had just held off for three centuries with rather great success. This theory is at large part due to the fact that there was no other body in the area for Revan to transport Vitiate in to actually fight him besides his own.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I said I'm not going to bother with another full-bodied response.

However, I will take the time to laugh at this particular part.
https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif

There we go.
Lack of counterargument = indirect concession

Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense. https://media.giphy.com/media/IMSq59ySKydYQ/giphy.gif

Vitiate's telepathy have hype in encyclopedic medium.

1/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Firstly, the fact that their being on the precipice of the dark side made them easier to control doesn't mean that all Vitiate did was turn them. But it's literally stated that their temptation made them easier to control - that's neither in dispute nor mutually exclusive from their being dominated.
Fair enough

Though I would like to highlight another aspect: it is apparent that Vitiate managed to warp the minds of Revan and Malak with barely an effort because the Jedi were on the precipice of the Dark Side at this point. However, let us assume a more fair scenario. Suppose that the Jedi are not on the precipice of the Dark Side! Then what? If just a fraction of Vitiate's loathsome power was sufficient to warp their minds in the original scenario, Vitiate should still have lot of room to break the same Jedi in the more fair scenario.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Secondly, the fact that they were able to eventually break free from his grasp through sheer force of will suggests that a sufficient strength of will would have been enough to resist him outright, unless if Vitiate's initial domination is literally infinitely more powerful than his lingering effects. It's not some sort of magic insta-kill move that nobody can guard against.
They didn't shrug off Vitiate's influence entirely through sheer force of will; they were partially successful towards this end. Moreover, they found the strength to do it 'after' experiencing Vitiate's telepathic powers at some point. Therefore, this is a circumstantial development. Vitiate's influence over Revan, in particular, ended when the Jedi erased his mind.

It is possible that Vitiate's initial domination is infinitely more effective than its lingering effects in the long-term. Consider following example:

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

You see that Vitiate projected extremely powerful illusions into the mind of the target (i.e. Lord Scourge) while brushing it. The ordeal lasted not even a second and it was enough to bring Lord Scourge to his knees. If Vitiate had persisted, he would have broken Lord Scourge (or caused Lord Scourge to descend to madness) but this was not his intent here.

The aforementioned example makes one thing clear that Vitiate's telepathic powers are really intense. Vitiate have history of literally destroying the minds of some opponents:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Now, once a targeted (individual) is under control, there wouldn't be a need for Vitiate to project powerful illusions into the mind of the target again and again to ensure his control. Additional events would divert Vitiate's attention at times and such gaps could be exploited. Jaina Solo took advantage of similar gaps while she was under the spell of UnuThul.

Creepiness confirmed.

2/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Indeed, the Outlander is more powerful than what Valkorion could control, so color me skeptical that novel Vitiate could do anything to a guy who resisted UnuThul.
Becoming more powerful is a vague statement in all honesty. Such a revelation doesn't necessarily refers to growth in raw power, it may also imply improvement in understanding of the ways of the Force.

Raw power makes little difference in the aspect of resisting telepathic influence of some of the greatest telepaths; relevant techniques/strategies are more important in this regard. The Outlander (assuming that he is Hero of Tython) would have learned from his earlier experiences.

It might be possible to resist Vitiate's telepathic influence by completely shielding the mind in order to prevent Vitiate from projecting anything into it while brushing it. And if the pressure (of the brushing effort) becomes unbearable in spite of shielding effort, then Revan's strategy (of knocking the attacker in split-second moment) may work but everybody could not replicate Revan's strategy.

The Outlander knows how to shield his mind from a telepathic assault and would have done so while in the company of Vitiate ever since he had been free from Vitiate's spell (thanks in part to the Force ghost of Jedi Master Orgus Din). The Outlander became more powerful in the sense that he acquired new abilities to counter new kinds of threats.

---

The truthfulness of my explanation becomes apparent from the case of Lord Nyax vs. a Jedi Strike Team led by Luke Skywalker. During the initial phase of this confrontation, Lord Nyax brushed Luke Skywalker's mind and projected powerful illusions into it. Skywalker nearly succumbed to Lord Nyax's spell and telepathically encouraged even Mara Jade to join him but she managed to convince him otherwise.

"I don't know if you can understand me," Luke said. "But whatever you're doing, whatever your plans are, I have to stop you."

Lord Nyax's smile grew broader. It seemed to recognize Luke's intent, even if it could not grasp his words.

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty.

He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.

He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

As the confrontation progressed further, Lord Nyax attempt to (telepathically) influence Luke again but the Jedi Master was ready for it this time but his strategy was to reach out to his allies for assistance and formulate a wall of resistance through battle-meld and they obliged:

Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.

Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made.

But deep beneath the analysis was a stream of emotion, an awareness of their son Ben, of what he would be if Nyax could find him and shape him.

Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.

They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.

Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.

Then all four of them felt the wall break. Whatever was beyond it roared forth to sweep them away.

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

---

Whether Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus) have a chance at resisting Vitiate'e telepathic domination during a confrontation, depends upon a number of factors including experience and knowledge of the enemy. If Jacen is not aware of Vitiate's combat-oriented strategies then element of surprise may work against him. And defenses against telepathic powers are not infallible either. During a conversation between UnuThul and some Jedi (including Luke Skywalker), the former nearly overwhelmed Luke with his telepathic abilities but the Jedi Master managed to resist by bolstering his own defenses and with support of other Jedi.

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

From Dark Nest: The Joiner King

Luke had experience with Palpatine and Lord Nyax beforehand he still needed support of his allies to shrug off telepathic influence of UnuThul during the aforementioned interaction. Later on, Luke would devise a strategy to counter UnuThul's telepathic assaults; projecting thoughts of his shared history with Rayner Thul into the mind of UnuThul whenever the two would connect. This strategy worked against UnuThul.

3/3

Now, it is time to clarify how good UnuThul actually is in the use of Telepathy. The aforementioned revelation makes it clear that UnuThul's Telepathy (while potent) was unrefined. Moreover, UnuThul was able to influence some Jedi with his calls but not all Jedi in the galaxy. And Jacen was among the Jedi who were not able to resist the call.

You cite the example of Jacen being successful at resisting UnuThul's influence in the long-term! Good for him. However, did the two ever came face-to-face and UnuThul attempted to break him at that moment, only to fail? Here:

As the voice spoke, an immense murky presence rose inside Jacen's mind, overwhelming his defenses so quickly he had no chance to shut it out. In the midst of the presence, he saw Jaina and the others, their faces filled with surprise and revulsion and pity. They were all in their flight suits, haggard and travel-worn, but healthy enough and unafraid.

They serve the Colony, Jacen, the voice said. Will you join them?

Will you help your sister?

Jacen did not answer, even in his thoughts. A day ago, he had felt Jaina growing small and cold in the Force, the way she always did before a battle. But there had been no indication afterward of anything alarming, not even the usual weary sorrow that always came of taking lives. He reached out to her, probing to see if there was anything amiss.

She responded with a welcoming warmth that let him know she was looking forward to seeing him.

But there was more, just a hint of the murky presence that had pushed its way into Jacen's mind-not hostile or ominous or threatening, just there. The guide drew Jacen's attention back to it by pressing the helmet and flight suit into his hands. "Buu buur urub ruuruur."

Jacen pushed the equipment back into the guide's hands. "I haven't said I'm going."

"Buu rurr. Ubu ur."

"Perhaps," Jacen allowed. The murky presence had withdrawn from his own mind, once again leaving him solely with his guide. "Once I've found out what happened here."

Later on, UnuThul remarked that Jacen is no longer under his spell. This could be due to distance factor. It is much easier to break and/or possess someone at close proximity then from great distances. As I proved above.

Once again, defenses against telepathy are not infallible. Luke and Jacen, both remained vulnerable to Telepathic influence in some way irrespective of the abilities they acquired with passage of time.

Sorry, you cannot use examples of Revan and Hero of Tython to argue in favor of Luke and Jacen's chances against Vitiate (a more formidable Telepath then UnuThul and even Lord Nyax). It is not that simple.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The second question is irrelevant, seeing as how it's not like Revan and Malak were able to combine their mental resistance or something. Caedus's status above Vader and performance against Luke certainly puts him above post mando wars Revan, who hasn't really done anything to put him anywhere near that level.

And if you wish to demonstrate otherwise, just saying "he's a very powerful Jedi" isn't enough - we've talked about this, you need to do comparative analysis. Get working on it.
See above.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is this supposed to mean something? lol
Yes.

It tells us that Revan had surpassed every Jedi in strength earlier. This is a very telling revelation for those who understand. Nothing funny in it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not to nitpick, but this isn't what a logical fallacy is...
OK.

But that assumption is wrong.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ah, so he isn't weaker as a spirit than as a living person. Well, thanks for preempting anyone making that argument.
Vitiate is a special case, not the norm.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This fight is novel Vitiate, BTW.
Ok

Still stronger then the likes of Darth Caedus at this time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is hilarious. You actually think you're some sort of brilliant debater, lol.
Get busy addressing my comprehensive response above, if you can.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

If Vitiate is manipulating someone, he would be nice to him. Just like Palpatine was nice to Anakin Skywalker. Nothing funny here.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He broke Luke, lol.
Right.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Though I would like to highlight another aspect: it is apparent that Vitiate managed to warp the minds of Revan and Malak with barely an effort because the Jedi were on the precipice of the Dark Side at this point. However, let us assume a more fair scenario. Suppose that the Jedi are not on the precipice of the Dark Side! Then what? If just a fraction of Vitiate's loathsome power was sufficient to warp their minds in the original scenario, Vitiate should still have lot of room to break the same Jedi in the more fair scenario.


Maybe, but pre-KotOR Revan and Malak =/= Darth Caedus or Vader, so it tells us nothing of his abilities to dominate either combatant here.



None of this suggests that Vitiate's telepathy is some sort of special move (TM) that only people who's faced him before could possibly counter. It's obvious that it's extremely potent, but that's it - it's just really strong telepathy, not a special kind of it. There's no reason to think that a particularly powerful/strong willed individual couldn't resist him outright. This is the case with pretty much everything in Star Wars - a sufficient command of the Force and a strong will serve as a general defense against almost anything, seeing as how Bane can resist Zannah's sorcery (which is a far clearer candidate for being a fundamentally different kind of telepathy than Vitiate's), and Palpatine can retain his identity after death, through sheer willpower.

Caedus, in particular, has resisted the efforts of UnuThul, who has quite frankly dominated a lot more powerful Jedi than Vitiate has. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate Vitiate's ability to do anything to either combatant, and dominating pre-KotoR Revan and Malak isn't it.

@Ellimist

Read my entire response first before responding to it. My responses (marked as 1 - 3) contain all the answers you are looking for. Read all of it properly, think clearly, and then respond.

Member AncientPower broke the continuation unfortunately.

This next exchange goes into some interesting detail about how Jedi can resist telepathic attacks, but actually says nothing of relevance to this discussion. Yes, resisting telepathy requires specific mental strategies, but guess what - every exertion of the Force requires a specific mental strategy, from telekinesis to flow walking to shatterpoint. There are sources that also go into some more detail as to how characters learn how to use these other abilities; they often have to visualize specific items or go through particular motions. Big deal. You're trying to equate the fact that it's not just flexing a muscle to thinking that nobody can resist Vitiate without having seen his specific flavor before, regardless of their respective power levels, which is absurd. By that logic, Dooku should've just mind controlled Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Whether Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus) have a chance at resisting Vitiate'e telepathic domination during a confrontation, depends upon a number of factors including experience and knowledge of the enemy. If Jacen is not aware of Vitiate's combat-oriented strategies then element of surprise may work against him.

Luke doesn't need any help to resist Nyax. He's told to do something he doesn't want to do, and this realization brings him out of it. He uses the strategy of thinking about his happy times with Mara - Caedus can probably come up with some other mental imagery. All you've demonstrated is that he initially struggles to do so. Yoda also initially struggles to stop Sidious's lightning, and Galen Marek initially struggles to TK a star destroyer - it doesn't change the fact that they can ultimately do it.

BTW, I don't know why you're equating the telepathic ability of Nyax with that of Vitiate. Because the degree does matter - Bane doesn't need to even try to resist Kaan's telepathy, for example.

Nyax in particular is one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars mythos, and there's no reason to think that Vitiate would be as capable against Caedus.

...of course, if he were, that would be bad for your case, because he would fail.



It's not made clear that Luke could not have overcome UnuThul's power on his own, and once again, why are you trying to equate, with absolutely no justification, Vitiate's telepathic abilities with others'? UnuThul can draw upon the power of an entire colony of what was probably billions of Killiks. The two characters aren't remotely comparable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, defenses against telepathy are not infallible.

So what? UnuThul =/= Vitiate. Stop equating the two, for f*ck's sake.



Legend-tier logic; the fact that they're still vulnerable to a sufficiently powerful telepath apparently means that telepathic resistance is irrespective of their willpower or their mastery of the Force.

By that logic, anyone who had encountered Vitiate's telepathy once and could come up with a defensive strategy could have pulled off Revan's 300 year resistance thing.

But wait, doesn't this whole line of reasoning sort of kill all of your Vitiate and Dread Master wank? After all, apparently anyone can break any arbitrarily powerful opponent so long as they haven't encountered their telepathy before, so why should we be so impressed with Vitiate's ability to do this? GG



I love how you just sneak in the notion that Vitiate > UnuThul and Nyax without bothering to justify it.

And yes, I can compare Luke's TP resistance with Revan and the Hero's, because Luke is orders of magnitude more powerful than both. It would be like Kaan trying to TP Bane, but even less effective.



Since you haven't bothered to quantify these Jedi that had come earlier, and how they compare with Caedus or Vader, no, it actually doesn't mean anything. But everyone knows that you're criminally incapable of producing substantive analysis of all of the source material you've wasted your life memorizing, so it's not too surprising.



Show me what novel Vitiate has done unaided by a dark side nexus. Impress me.



Your "comprehensive response" is actually marginally more substantive than what you normally come up with, but still manages to say pretty much nothing of importance. It did give me some quotes to throw around if I get into a debate about UnuThul or Nyax though.



Why would he need to manipulate someone if he could just dominate them outright?

Oh, right, because the Outlander has met Valkorion before. You know, you just shot your entire wankery of him in the foot by arguing that you can't resist a telepath without having a special strategy, and then detailing how pretty much everyone who's met Vitiate before, or even just been given a brief pep talk by Revan, can resist him. Suddenly Vitiate's ability isn't unique or interesting at all.

Thankfully for you, you're wrong. Raw power/will does matter, and there's typically a threshold for how powerful someone can get before a character can't control them anymore. The Outlander is beyond that threshold, so Caedus and Vader both certainly are, and both have dealt with telepathy before.



Nice job not responding, lol. I'll take that as a concession.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Maybe, but pre-KotOR Revan and Malak =/= Darth Caedus or Vader, so it tells us nothing of his abilities to dominate either combatant here.
Again, this is a short-sighted argument. Resisting telepathic powers is a matter of mental defenses and relevant experience. Raw power is largely irrelevant in these matters.

Ever wondered why UnuThul was able to lure some Jedi with his call, but not every Jedi out there? Every Jedi felt/experienced his call but some managed to resist it. This is the point.

Neither Darth Caedus and not Darth Vader have infallible defenses against Telepathy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
None of this suggests that Vitiate's telepathy is some sort of special move (TM) that only people who's faced him before could possibly counter. It's obvious that it's extremely potent, but that's it - it's just really strong telepathy, not a special kind of it. There's no reason to think that a particularly powerful/strong willed individual couldn't resist him outright. This is the case with pretty much everything in Star Wars - a sufficient command of the Force and a strong will serve as a general defense against almost anything, seeing as how Bane can resist Zannah's sorcery (which is a far clearer candidate for being a fundamentally different kind of telepathy than Vitiate's), and Palpatine can retain his identity after death, through sheer willpower.
Vitiate's Telepathy is similar to that of Lord Nyax's in nature. Each would reach out to the mind of the opponent (the target would feel brushing sensation at this point) and then each would project disturbing illusions into the mind of the target to overwhelm his senses.

It takes more then sheer willpower to successfully resist Telepathy of both Vitiate and Lord Nyax. The opponent needs to strengthen his mental defenses beforehand to stand a chance at resisting such Telepaths. And if the opponent have never met them before, good luck.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus, in particular, has resisted the efforts of UnuThul, who has quite frankly dominated a lot more powerful Jedi than Vitiate has. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate Vitiate's ability to do anything to either combatant, and dominating pre-KotoR Revan and Malak isn't it.
You are presenting a half-truth. Darth Caedus was not able to resist UnuThul's Telepathy when the two met face-to-face. Darth Caedus was not even able to resist the call of UnuThul earlier. However, Darth Caedus managed to break free from UnuThul's spell while he had been travelling to other places. This reinforces my argument that distance factor can make difference. Moreover, different events would divert UnuThul's attention and Darth Caedus might have taken advantage of such gaps. Jaina Solo also managed to take advantage of such gaps.

Vitiate managed to break virtually any opponent whom he wanted to, in single combat! Any opponent who had not experienced Vitiate's Telepathy earlier. Point is that Jedi (and/or Sith) are not expected to come across a Telepath on par with Vitiate very often, therefore, they are not necessarily prepared for Telepathy of such caliber beforehand and the element of surprise works against them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This next exchange goes into some interesting detail about how Jedi can resist telepathic attacks, but actually says nothing of relevance to this discussion. Yes, resisting telepathy requires specific mental strategies, but guess what - every exertion of the Force requires a specific mental strategy, from telekinesis to flow walking to shatterpoint. There are sources that also go into some more detail as to how characters learn how to use these other abilities; they often have to visualize specific items or go through particular motions. Big deal. You're trying to equate the fact that it's not just flexing a muscle to thinking that nobody can resist Vitiate without having seen his specific flavor before, regardless of their respective power levels, which is absurd. By that logic, Dooku should've just mind controlled Yoda.


Since when is Count Dooku an accomplished Telepath or among the greatest?

Lord Nyax and Vitiate have similar Telepathic abilities. I have explained this earlier.

When Luke Skywalker fought Lord Nyax, he nearly succumbed to the latter's Telepathic expressions on two different occasions. If Luke didn't had allies there, he would have succumbed to Lord Nyax. In each case, Luke's allies enabled him to break free from Lord Nyax's spell.

In the first case:

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty.

He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.

He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

- Luke had almost succumbed here but the sight of his wife invoked memories in him and enabled him to shrug off Lord Nyax's Telepathy.

Observation: If Luke's wife had not been there, then what? Luke would have fallen.

In the second case:

Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.

Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made.

But deep beneath the analysis was a stream of emotion, an awareness of their son Ben, of what he would be if Nyax could find him and shape him.

Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.

They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.

Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.

Then all four of them felt the wall break. Whatever was beyond it roared forth to sweep them away.

From Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

- Luke was prepared for Telepathy beforehand and managed to further strengthen his defenses by combining them with those of Mara Jade and Tahiri Veila - The 3 Jedi managed to shrug off Lord Nyax's second Telepathic assault through their combined might.

Observation: If Luke was alone here, he might have fallen.

Now, Vitiate could be more intense at projecting illusions into the mind of a target then Lord Nyax (refer to experience of Lord Scourge here). Therefore, Luke would find it even harder to resist Vitiate's Telepathy in the place of Lord Nyax.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke doesn't need any help to resist Nyax. He's told to do something he doesn't want to do, and this realization brings him out of it. He uses the strategy of thinking about his happy times with Mara
Really? You are wrong. See above.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- Caedus can probably come up with some other mental imagery. All you've demonstrated is that he initially struggles to do so. Yoda also initially struggles to stop Sidious's lightning, and Galen Marek initially struggles to TK a star destroyer - it doesn't change the fact that they can ultimately do it.
But the problem is that Luke had help on his side against Lord Nyax.

I don't think that Darth Caedus have superior defenses then Luke Skywalker against Telepathy. He is just as fallible (refer to his face-to-face meeting with UnuThul).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, I don't know why you're equating the telepathic ability of Nyax with that of Vitiate. Because the degree does matter - Bane doesn't need to even try to resist Kaan's telepathy, for example.

Nyax in particular is one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars mythos, and there's no reason to think that Vitiate would be as capable against Caedus.

...of course, if he were, that would be bad for your case, because he would fail.
Because Lord Nyax and Vitiate have similar Telepathic abilities. I have elaborated this earlier. However, Vitiate is more intense and accomplished then Lord Nyax in the matters of Telepathy. Want me to draw parallels for you?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not made clear that Luke could not have overcome UnuThul's power on his own, and once again, why are you trying to equate, with absolutely no justification, Vitiate's telepathic abilities with others'? UnuThul can draw upon the power of an entire colony of what was probably billions of Killiks. The two characters aren't remotely comparable.
Wrong again.

UnuThul would also have overwhelmed Luke's defenses if the other Jedi had not added to it.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

From Dark Nest: The Joiner King

What part of that you didn't get?

UnuThul's Telepathy is unrefined irrespective of the raw power at his disposal. And UnuThul is stated to be just "incredibly powerful."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Again, this is a short-sighted argument. Resisting telepathic powers is a matter of mental defenses and relevant experience. Raw power is largely irrelevant in these matters.


So a sufficiently strong willed and debriefed non-Force sensitive could have resisted Vitiate? Good to know.

It can't be a coincidence that there's such a strong correlation between how powerful in the Force someone is and how capable they are at resisting telepathy. Yes, willpower plays a role in your defenses, but willpower also plays a role in your ability to use the Force. Willpower may already be encoded in your Force defenses, and in either case, it's pretty simple to imagine there being two or more factors at play here. There's no reason to think that defending against a Force telepathic attack is mysteriously independent of Force mastery unlike guarding against everything else Force-related.



How is this a meaningful response? No, Caedus and Vader are not "infallible" at anything; this is not a substantive analysis of how novel Vitiate can break them when he's never broken anyone on their level.

Caedus has already experienced UnuThul's pull; he has dealt with telepathy before. Vader's will was such that he was able to survive being burned alive on sheer willpower. The burden is on you to demonstrate that Vitiate can do anything to them just because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan and Malak on a dark side nexus.



Except there's no reason to think that they're equally potent.



It also takes some technique, yes, just as how it takes technique above mere Force potential to employ telekinesis. Caedus has already dealt with telepathy and employs it frequently himself, ditto with Vader. There's no reason to think that the techniques needed to resist Vitiate and UnuThul are fundamentally different - actually, you said precisely the opposite just above.

Heck, once again, you just shot yourself in the foot. You argued that Valkorion can't dominate the Outlander because the latter has dealt with Vitiate's TP before. You then said that UnuThul/Nyax and Vitiate's TP are of a similar nature. Ergo, Caedus shouldn't be affected by it, because he's dealt with UnuThul's TP before and would have come up with defenses like Revan did. GG.



Who has novel Vitiate broken off a dark side nexus that is so impressive?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Nyax and Vitiate have similar Telepathic abilities. I have explained this earlier.


The fact that their telepathy is similar in kind just knifes your entire argument, because it means that Caedus and Vader will have prior experience from generally experiencing telepathy.

It does not imply that they're similar in magnitude.

And you shoot yourself in the foot, as you always do, when you belittle Dooku's telepathic abilities; right, the power of the telepath does matter, hence why your trying to equate Vitiate and Nyax/UnuThul is ridiculous.




For the umpteenth time, why is this relevant? Nyax and Vitiate are not the same f*cking people. Seeing as how Nyax can take on Luke, Tahiri and Mara at the same time, he's evidently vastly more powerful. Novel Vitiate is weaker than Sidious, who couldn't defeat this Luke. The disparity is pretty enormous.



Again, Luke breaks away when he has to do something he has an aversion to thanks to memories. So if Nyax had commanded him to do pretty much anything significantly harmful, there's a chance Luke would've gotten the memories of "holy sh*t this is bad" and broken away.

This doesn't mean Mara is actively amping him - she isn't. Luke's pulling this off on his own, using his own memories.



That's great, except that before that sentence they were already successfully resisting him using only their own mental tricks.



"could be"? Based on what? Dominating pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, while on a nexus, and with prep, which Drew has stated helps him dominate people, and which he actually needs to do against powerful Force users? Seriously?



I got the lack of a logical equivalence between "they helped him" and "he needed their help".



You should hardly be the one to downplay accolades like "incredibly powerful" when such quotes span like 75% of your arguments. Regardless, UnuThul may not have refined his telepathy, but he more than compensate for this given that he's drawing on the equivalent of a midichlorian count of more than a trillion.

-----------

Overall, everything you've spewed out, aside from outright helping Caedus/Vader thanks to inadvertently admitting that they've already encountered "similar" telepathy multiple times, is predicated on the assumption that Vitiate's raw telepathic power compares to that of Nyax and UnuThul. You've done absolutely nothing to justify this claim, and yet you just continue to assert it as if I'm supposed to take your word on face value.

The most powerful person a non-amped, non-prepped Vitiate has dominated up to the events of the Revan novel is his f*cking father. There's nothing here to suggest that his telepathy will have any affect on the two combatants here.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So what? UnuThul =/= Vitiate. Stop equating the two, for f*ck's sake.
You are right.

UnuThul's Telepathy was unrefined and his showings are also inferior. Vitiate >>

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Legend-tier logic; the fact that they're still vulnerable to a sufficiently powerful telepath apparently means that telepathic resistance is irrespective of their willpower or their mastery of the Force.

By that logic, anyone who had encountered Vitiate's telepathy once and could come up with a defensive strategy could have pulled off Revan's 300 year resistance thing.

But wait, doesn't this whole line of reasoning sort of kill all of your Vitiate and Dread Master wank? After all, apparently anyone can break any arbitrarily powerful opponent so long as they haven't encountered their telepathy before, so why should we be so impressed with Vitiate's ability to do this? GG
Ellimist-tier logic; ignoring everything and continue to argue needlessly.

Resistance against Telepathy is grounded in the understanding of the ways of the Force and experience. Pretty straightforward.

No, everybody would not be able to resist Vitiate's Telepathy again and again. These matters aren't so black and white.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you just sneak in the notion that Vitiate > UnuThul and Nyax without bothering to justify it.
Based on feats, you idiot.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And yes, I can compare Luke's TP resistance with Revan and the Hero's, because Luke is orders of magnitude more powerful than both. It would be like Kaan trying to TP Bane, but even less effective.
Prove it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since you haven't bothered to quantify these Jedi that had come earlier, and how they compare with Caedus or Vader, no, it actually doesn't mean anything. But everyone knows that you're criminally incapable of producing substantive analysis of all of the source material you've wasted your life memorizing, so it's not too surprising.
I no longer have interest in addressing a troll like you who fails to comprehend presented information.

Prove that Darth Vader and Darth Caedus can resist Vitiate's Telepathy and/or have infallible defenses. Empty words mean nothing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Show me what novel Vitiate has done unaided by a dark side nexus. Impress me.
**** you. Good enough?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your "comprehensive response" is actually marginally more substantive than what you normally come up with, but still manages to say pretty much nothing of importance. It did give me some quotes to throw around if I get into a debate about UnuThul or Nyax though.
Your lack of comprehension skills is a big problem, not my debating skills. I laid down every useful bit of information here for others to understand.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why would he need to manipulate someone if he could just dominate them outright?
Go ask BioWare

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh, right, because the Outlander has met Valkorion before. You know, you just shot your entire wankery of him in the foot by arguing that you can't resist a telepath without having a special strategy, and then detailing how pretty much everyone who's met Vitiate before, or even just been given a brief pep talk by Revan, can resist him. Suddenly Vitiate's ability isn't unique or interesting at all.

Thankfully for you, you're wrong. Raw power/will does matter, and there's typically a threshold for how powerful someone can get before a character can't control them anymore. The Outlander is beyond that threshold, so Caedus and Vader both certainly are, and both have dealt with telepathy before.
The Outlander can be any protagonist.

I love how your reply to me asking for telepathy feats for novel Vitiate, which you claim are what you base his superiority over UnuThul/Nyax on, you just say "**** you", kek.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are right.

UnuThul's Telepathy was unrefined and his showings are also inferior. Vitiate >>


Nope. Luke struggled to resist him, while novel Vitiate's best showing is dominating pre-kotor Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, and he does this on a dark side nexus and with prep that Drew stated in an email to be particularly important for him to pull off his telepathy.

Luke >>>> pre KOTOR Revan/Malak

Luke >>>> Vitiate's father

And you continue to avoid actually providing feats to back up your claim that novel Vitiate is actually a more dominating telepath than UnuThul.



Was that supposed to be witty or substantive?

Where are those feats, Legend?



Both of which Caedus and Vader possess in ample quantities.

Where are those feats, Legend?



Then show me the most powerful person that Vitiate dominates unaided up to the Revan novel, or do some sort of reasonable extrapolation to what his upper limit would be, rather than vaguely saying "well Caedus isn't infallible so that must mean that Vitiate can dominate him!"



There's that part that's missing where you actually provide said feats, lel.



Prove that Luke is more powerful than the Hero and pre-KotOR Revan? Are you f*cking kidding me?

Wait, I don't need to do that, since you've already agreed in prior debates that Palpatine > peak Revan and Luke > pre-DE Palpatine. GG



The burden of proof is on you, lol.

Oh? Prove that Vitiate can withstand Vader's saber throw.



Me: show me evidence.
You: **** YOU!



Still a better argument than what you can typically muster.



Legend, do you ever go back to your posts a little while after you read them, and if so, do you ever cringe a little? Because in addition to having sh*t tier logic, your writing skills are so horrible and awkward that they actual make you cringe.

"I laid down every useful bit of information here for others to understand" - oh my god.

Where are those feats, Legend?



Concession accepted.



Seeing as how the Hero is the most powerful, I'm doing you a favor by assuming that.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So a sufficiently strong willed and debriefed non-Force sensitive could have resisted Vitiate? Good to know.
I don't recall any non-Force sensitive managing to resist Vitiate's Telepathy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It can't be a coincidence that there's such a strong correlation between how powerful in the Force someone is and how capable they are at resisting telepathy. Yes, willpower plays a role in your defenses, but willpower also plays a role in your ability to use the Force. Willpower may already be encoded in your Force defenses, and in either case, it's pretty simple to imagine there being two or more factors at play here. There's no reason to think that defending against a Force telepathic attack is mysteriously independent of Force mastery unlike guarding against everything else Force-related.
Never claimed otherwise.

Combination of following factors:-

High: Defensive Techniques
High: Willpower
High: Experience
Low: Raw power

Clear enough?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is this a meaningful response? No, Caedus and Vader are not "infallible" at anything; this is not a substantive analysis of how novel Vitiate can break them when he's never broken anyone on their level.
Again, what do you mean by level?

Revan is/was absolutely on there level.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus has already experienced UnuThul's pull; he has dealt with telepathy before. Vader's will was such that he was able to survive being burned alive on sheer willpower. The burden is on you to demonstrate that Vitiate can do anything to them just because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan and Malak on a dark side nexus.
UnuThul overwhelmed mental defenses of Jacen Solo during a face-to-face interaction. Memory problems much?

Enduring burns and resisting Telepathy are two different matters, requiring entirely different set of talents to accomplish. Willpower is involved in virtually every action performed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except there's no reason to think that they're equally potent.
Indeed! Vitiate's is more potent. Here is a comparison:

Lord Nyax

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

From Enemy Lines - Rebel Stand

---

Vitiate

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

Vitiate is also more accomplished Telepath then Lord Nyax, based on holistic showings/feats.

Clear enough?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It also takes some technique, yes, just as how it takes technique above mere Force potential to employ telekinesis. Caedus has already dealt with telepathy and employs it frequently himself, ditto with Vader. There's no reason to think that the techniques needed to resist Vitiate and UnuThul are fundamentally different - actually, you said precisely the opposite just above.

Heck, once again, you just shot yourself in the foot. You argued that Valkorion can't dominate the Outlander because the latter has dealt with Vitiate's TP before. You then said that UnuThul/Nyax and Vitiate's TP are of a similar nature. Ergo, Caedus shouldn't be affected by it, because he's dealt with UnuThul's TP before and would have come up with defenses like Revan did. GG.
Jacen Solo failed to resist UnuThul's Telepathy during a face-to-face encounter. Drill this fact in your skull.

Palpatine brought Darth Vader to his knees from afar with his Telepathy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Who has novel Vitiate broken off a dark side nexus that is so impressive?
Nexus argument is pointless and misleading. Provide evidence of Vitiate drawing on a nexus to perform actions with examples.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The fact that their telepathy is similar in kind just knifes your entire argument, because it means that Caedus and Vader will have prior experience from generally experiencing telepathy.

It does not imply that they're similar in magnitude.

And you shoot yourself in the foot, as you always do, when you belittle Dooku's telepathic abilities; right, the power of the telepath does matter, hence why your trying to equate Vitiate and Nyax/UnuThul is ridiculous.
Neither Darth Vader and nor Darth Caedus have experienced Telepathy of Lord Nyax. They never met.

Every Jedi learns a thing or two about mental defenses during formal training. However, this doesn't makes them foolproof against all forms of Telepathy. Mental defenses are not infallible.

Never stated that Count Dooku is a poor Telepath. However, Vitiate, Lord Nyax and UnuThul are infinitely superior Telepaths then him. Therefore, Count Dooku wouldn't have stood a chance at affecting Yoda with his Telepathic abilities but the other 3 do.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
For the umpteenth time, why is this relevant? Nyax and Vitiate are not the same f*cking people. Seeing as how Nyax can take on Luke, Tahiri and Mara at the same time, he's evidently vastly more powerful. Novel Vitiate is weaker than Sidious, who couldn't defeat this Luke. The disparity is pretty enormous.
A > B > logic? Fantastic

You cannot just declare that Luke Skywalker (or any well-known character) can successfully resist Vitiate's Telepathy and be done with it. You have to be more specific about it and provide a better reasoning than Luke has great strength and willpower. You need to be specific about experiences of Luke against Telepaths that he came across and do they compare to Vitiate.

I have already established through my analysis that Vitiate and Lord Nyax have similar Telepathic abilities. However, I have also established that Vitiate is more intense and accomplished Telepath then Lord Nyax.

B/W Lord Nyax couldn't overcome unified mental defenses of Luke, Tahiri Veila and Mara Jade. But he could overcome their mental defenses individually.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Again, Luke breaks away when he has to do something he has an aversion to thanks to memories. So if Nyax had commanded him to do pretty much anything significantly harmful, there's a chance Luke would've gotten the memories of "holy sh*t this is bad" and broken away.

This doesn't mean Mara is actively amping him - she isn't. Luke's pulling this off on his own, using his own memories.
It is not that simple.

Luke found the strength to resist Lord Nyax's Telepathy (first attempt) while looking at his wife who stirred memories in him. His wife set the stage for such aversion. In the absence of anybody familiar (and really close) to draw memories from, Luke would have fallen (he almost fell until he turned his attention towards his wife to convince her to join him as well).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's great, except that before that sentence they were already successfully resisting him using only their own mental tricks.
No.

Lord Nyax targeted only Luke with his Telepathy and attempted to motivate him to kill Tahiri. However, Luke was prepared for such a move this time and drew on his memories with Tahiri to resist Lord Nyax's second Telepathic assault, reducing its effectiveness in this manner. But Luke did not just stop here, he reached out to Mara and Tahiri and assisted them in formulating a unified defensive front against Lord Nyax's Telepathy so that Lord Nyax won't be able to turn them against each other.

This shows that you are not paying proper attention to revelations. You are being disingenuous.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"could be"? Based on what? Dominating pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, while on a nexus, and with prep, which Drew has stated helps him dominate people, and which he actually needs to do against powerful Force users? Seriously?
Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (perhaps history) when he confronted Vitiate for the first time. Terminology such as Pre-KoTOR is therefore meaningless. I have addressed the "precipice" aspect earlier.

Vitiate being prepared for Revan and Malak is a nebulous claim. It is same as Luke being prepared for Lord Nyax's Telepathy second time. None of this implies drawing energy from nexus and/or external environment in any way or form to perform the deed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I got the lack of a logical equivalence between "they helped him" and "he needed their help".
Both

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You should hardly be the one to downplay accolades like "incredibly powerful" when such quotes span like 75% of your arguments. Regardless, UnuThul may not have refined his telepathy, but he more than compensate for this given that he's drawing on the equivalent of a midichlorian count of more than a trillion.
And how did you figure out such midichlorian count? That raw power was not being (entirely) channeled into a single attack, it was being utilized by UnuThul to grow in power and overcome his shortcomings. UnuThul used to be a below-average Jedi earlier.

Vitiate >> UnuThul in the spectrum of Telepathic powers.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Overall, everything you've spewed out, aside from outright helping Caedus/Vader thanks to inadvertently admitting that they've already encountered "similar" telepathy multiple times, is predicated on the assumption that Vitiate's raw telepathic power compares to that of Nyax and UnuThul. You've done absolutely nothing to justify this claim, and yet you just continue to assert it as if I'm supposed to take your word on face value.

The most powerful person a non-amped, non-prepped Vitiate has dominated up to the events of the Revan novel is his f*cking father. There's nothing here to suggest that his telepathy will have any affect on the two combatants here.
None of what I have disclosed helps those characters in any way. You have significant comprehension problems. Darth Vader and Jacen Solo never met Lord Nyax.

Non-amped and non-preppred are utterly misleading and disingenuous terms to use to discredit Vitiate's showings. You need to prove their validity first before flaunting them like some sort of evidence.

Vitiate had centuries to grow in power in comparison to UnuThul's mere years. Vitiate is described as an almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side at the time of his first meeting with Revan and Malak. He is stronger then every Force-user in history at this point (stronger then even Darth Nihilus).

UnuThul doesn't compares to even Darth Nihilus, forget Vitiate.

OK buddy, your burden of proof - and it is your burden, given that you're suggesting a maneuver on Vitiate's part - is to demonstrate that Vitiate as of the Revan novel can mentally dominate Vader and/or Caedus. There are a few ways that you could do this:

1. Prove that his telepathy is some sort of unique power that can only be resisted by people who have encountered it before or have specifically trained against it - too bad you shot yourself in the foot by suggesting that it's actually the same kind of telepathy as the one that Caedus encountered (and Vader, by extension, from having been mentally f*cked by Palpatine) just of a different degree. In fact, you go a step further and claim that even the likes of Scourge and Meetra can stop him just by getting some lessons by Revan, because Revan has encountered his TP before. Well, Caedus has encountered Nyax's TP before, which you say is of the same general kind - so he can just use that to stave it off! After all, Scourge hadn't even seen his TP before and just needed some basic pointers, and he certainly isn't as powerful or skilled as Caedus, amirite?

2. Prove that the sheer power of his telepathy is too much for Caedus/Vader to resist. Your current tactic has been to establish that Vitiate's TP > Nyax's...by guessing how scary authorial descriptions of their invasions are, which is probably one of the worst arguments you've ever made in a litany of candidates, for a variety of reasons (.ie Scourge =/= Caedus, scarier =/= more effective brainwashing, the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.). Aside from what I suspect you're going to do, which is to employ some circular chain, you can only try to argue for this general point implicitly by showing me characters Vitiate has dominated whose raw power rivals that of Vader/Caedus. I could even let the nexus thing (which you hilariously claim doesn't affect Vitiate's power, even though that's precisely what nexuses do...); just show me who has he dominated, or how can you extrapolate what the upper limits of who he can dominate is, that puts his telepathy beyond the defensive capabilities that we can guess Vader and Caedus have from their raw power?

I see absolutely nothing of the sort in your reply, although it would be a routine task to point out all of the mundane logical fallacies replete in it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your current tactic has been to establish that Vitiate's TP > Nyax's...by guessing how scary authorial descriptions of their invasions are, which is probably one of the worst arguments you've ever made in a litany of candidates, for a variety of reasons.

Was reading through this thread and laughed at that.

"Vitiate's is much creepier" LOL...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Prove that his telepathy is some sort of unique power that can only be resisted by people who have encountered it before or have specifically trained against it - too bad you shot yourself in the foot by suggesting that it's actually the same kind of telepathy as the one that Caedus encountered (and Vader, by extension, from having been mentally f*cked by Palpatine) just of a different degree.
You have comprehension problems, my friend. No wait! Serious comprehension problems. I figured out through my analysis that Vitiate's Telepathy is similar to that of Lord Nyax's. And Darth Caedus and Darth Vader never encountered Lord Nyax. Therefore, you are shooting yourself in the foot by posting utter nonsense.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In fact, you go a step further and claim that even the likes of Scourge and Meetra can stop him just by getting some lessons by Revan, because Revan has encountered his TP before. Well, Caedus has encountered Nyax's TP before, which you say is of the same general kind - so he can just use that to stave it off! After all, Scourge hadn't even seen his TP before and just needed some basic pointers, and he certainly isn't as powerful or skilled as Caedus, amirite?
I never claimed that even the likes of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik could resist Vitiate's Telepathy. Lord Scourge experienced Vitiate's Telepathy beforehand and found it to be overwhelming. Later on, Lord Scourge had a vision in which he and the Jedi confront Vitiate and even in that vision, Vitiate Telepathically destroys Lord Scourge's mind in the end. We can assume that that vision depicts a scenario of what would become of them even after Revan's teachings and support. It is clearly stated in the novel that Vitiate would have overwhelmed Revan and his allies in a confrontation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Prove that the sheer power of his telepathy is too much for Caedus/Vader to resist. Your current tactic has been to establish that Vitiate's TP > Nyax's...by guessing how scary authorial descriptions of their invasions are, which is probably one of the worst arguments you've ever made in a litany of candidates, for a variety of reasons (.ie Scourge =/= Caedus, scarier =/= more effective brainwashing, the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.).
Vitiate's Telepathy packs sufficient intensity to overwhelm the wills of an entire populace of a planet, should he desire. On Ziost, he possessed scores of Jedi (Masters) along with countless Sith, battle-hardened troops. Neither Lord Nyax and nor UnuThul have comparable showings. Yet, UnuThul's relatively unrefined Telepathy was sufficient to penetrate Jacen Solo's mental defenses. It is safe to assume that Vitiate (a superior Telepath) will mind**** Jacen Solo.

Darth Vader is just as vulnerable as Jacen Solo was or perhaps worse.

Again, raw power of Darth Vader and Jacen Solo is largely irrelevant in this matter. Their mental defenses and experience would count the most and they lack in this aspect vis-a-vis Vitiate.

Moreover, Vitiate did not choose to break Lord Scourge, he just gave him a glimpse of what to expect should he be found guilty of aiding those who are rebelling against him. Read the novel and stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Aside from what I suspect you're going to do, which is to employ some circular chain, you can only try to argue for this general point implicitly by showing me characters Vitiate has dominated whose raw power rivals that of Vader/Caedus. I could even let the nexus thing (which you hilariously claim doesn't affect Vitiate's power, even though that's precisely what nexuses do...); just show me who has he dominated, or how can you extrapolate what the upper limits of who he can dominate is, that puts his telepathy beyond the defensive capabilities that we can guess Vader and Caedus have from their raw power?
Raw power again?

http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Facepalm-Meme-Picard-14.jpg

Are you a drinker? I am curious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I see absolutely nothing of the sort in your reply, although it would be a routine task to point out all of the mundane logical fallacies replete in it.
You are an idiot. Sorry, you have started to provoke me to judge you harshly with your silly, pathetic and misleading rants. No matter how much time and energy is invested to explain things to you, you come back to point zero and put forward same nonsense again and again. I have never come across an individual as dense as you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have comprehension problems, my friend. No wait! Serious comprehension problems.

Your comebacks are so awkward they actually make me cringe.



So you think Vitiate's telepathy is more similar to Nyax's than UnuThul's is? Bullshit. UnuThul's and Nyax's are clearly described in similar language (giving you the feeling/desire to join them), whereas Vitiate's is vastly disparate (.ie scaring and horrifying you), so if Vitiate's is similar, UnuThul's certainly is. Caedus has encountered UnuThul before, so you've basically conceded that he could resist Vitiate, because that's why you think Revan and co. can.



That's...not stated in the novel, no. It's implied that the battle could have gone either way. Evidently, Vitiate couldn't overwhelm them, because, well, he didn't. Scourge's vision was of Vitiate doing something to him after he had already been defeated, which is a useless accomplishment for the purposes of a vs. debate.

You have, once again, conceded this debate by indicating that anyone who has experienced telepathy similar to Vitiate's can resist it, seeing as how that is your excuse for why the Outlander can.




So can Palpatine's. Vader has experienced Palpatine's TP, so by your logic, he can resist Vitiate's, seeing as how you think Vitiate's is similar to Nyax's more persuasive one, so Sidious's, which is likely far more hostile, certainly is.



LMAO if you think "scores of Jedi (masters)" and "countless Sith" are comparable to Luke Skywalker. Clearly it isn't, given that Valkorion concedes that the Outlander is too powerful for him to control.



BTW, Drew confirms that Vitiate needs prep to use his telepathy against powerful opponents, and he has neither that nor a nexus here. You, once again, have scant to actually show for your fanatical Vitiate masturbation.



You keep vacillating between dismissing the importance of raw power and bragging about how "Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" when Vitiate dominated him. Regardless, you have to provide some sort of analysis as to why defeating a Force-based attack doesn't correlate to your strength in the Force when every other Force defense does, and why Valkorion explicitly says that the Outlander is "too powerful" for him to dominate.



Your ability to grasp basic logic is honestly one of the worst out of any human being who has graduated high school that I've ever met. This statement is not a claim that fulfills your burden of proof, nor does it counter anything that I said. It's literally meaningless. And unfortunately, no matter how many hours of your life you waste on this mission of yours, it seems like your debating skills aren't going to improve, nor will you get any smarter.

What was that original contention of mine? Oh, right, it was pointing out that trying to prove Vitiate's superior TP by arguing that he scares Scourge more than Nyax scares Luke is probably one of the worst arguments conceived in the history of our species. Nyax really, really f*cking obviously isn't trying to scare Luke, he's trying to give Luke the desire to join and listen to him. They're different strategies, for f*ck's sake.



I love how you just assert that raw power has nothing to do with TP defense, and then brag about how powerful Revan and Malak were. I'd accuse anyone else of dishonesty, but honestly, I think you're just stupid.

And no, I'm not a regular drinker, although I'm still significantly smarter than you when I do.



I find it astounding that you talk with such a smug and condescending demeanor that suggests you actually think you're brilliant or something. Hasn't real life ever hit you with a cold bucket of water on your delusions? Hasn't school, or work, or your likely failure to achieve any impressive intellectual milestones? You're a laughing stock of pretty much everyone on these forums, even those who wank TOR. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't also an insufferable *sshole, but thanks for being one, because now I feel more morally justified in mocking you.

The Outlander could be a Smuggler, I don't think it's a question of them being "too powerful" for him to control. It's more like it's their body he's in, so they call the shots. He's also got some kind of vested interest in the Outlander and in getting them to come over to his side willingly. He doesn't want or need another broken slave.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you just assert that raw power has nothing to do with TP defense, and then brag about how powerful Revan and Malak were. I'd accuse anyone else of dishonesty, but honestly, I think you're just stupid.

And no, I'm not a regular drinker, although I'm still significantly smarter than you when I do.



I find it astounding that you talk with such a smug and condescending demeanor that suggests you actually think you're brilliant or something. Hasn't real life ever hit you with a cold bucket of water on your delusions? Hasn't school, or work, or your likely failure to achieve any impressive intellectual milestones? You're a laughing stock of pretty much everyone on these forums, even those who wank TOR. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't also an insufferable *sshole, but thanks for being one, because now I feel more morally justified in mocking you.


http://bensbargains.com/thecheckout/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Burn.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's also got some kind of vested interest in the Outlander and in getting them to come over to his side willingly. He doesn't want or need another broken slave. In fact if you choose the "why don't you just read my mind" option when he asks about your thoughts in chapter 9, he says that that would harm their alliance, and that the Outlander's mind is his own etc.

The Ellimist is one of the best roasters I've ever witnessed on the forums, tbh.

That was brutal. It pleases me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That was brutal. It pleases me.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The Ellimist is one of the best roasters I've ever witnessed on the forums, tbh.

Ahsoka sucks, Vader killed her.

you just ended your own career with that horrible attempt

Originally posted by Sinious
you just ended your own career with that horrible attempt tbh

2/2

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You keep vacillating between dismissing the importance of raw power and bragging about how "Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" when Vitiate dominated him. Regardless, you have to provide some sort of analysis as to why defeating a Force-based attack doesn't correlate to your strength in the Force when every other Force defense does, and why Valkorion explicitly says that the Outlander is "too powerful" for him to dominate.


I haven't cited the example of Vitiate managing to warp the minds of Revan and Malak in that sense. I cited this example in the context of both being battle-hardened and strong-willed individuals at the time. Revan being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at this point is a trump card that I utilize against claims that raw power makes much difference in this regard (just like yours). Moreover, being more powerful is not just about raw power.

---

Vitiate cannot be trusted! The crux of KoTFE story arc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your ability to grasp basic logic is honestly one of the worst out of any human being who has graduated high school that I've ever met. This statement is not a claim that fulfills your burden of proof, nor does it counter anything that I said. It's literally meaningless. And unfortunately, no matter how many hours of your life you waste on this mission of yours, it seems like your debating skills aren't going to improve, nor will you get any smarter.

What was that original contention of mine? Oh, right, it was pointing out that trying to prove Vitiate's superior TP by arguing that he scares Scourge more than Nyax scares Luke is probably one of the worst arguments conceived in the history of our species. Nyax really, really f*cking obviously isn't trying to scare Luke, he's trying to give Luke the desire to join and listen to him. They're different strategies, for f*ck's sake.


My point was intended to address this part of your statement:

"the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.)" (Ellimist)

- WTF you were trying to convey with this statement? You were jumping to premature conclusions (which is a norm in your case). Vitiate gave Lord Scourge a glimpse of his true-self in a split-second moment as a warning that his betrayal will not go unpunished. Vitiate was not interested in breaking Lord Scourge and neither does this imply that this tactic was not useful for breaking a target.

You should make more effort in improving your arguments instead of insulting me.

Now coming towards Lord Nyax not trying to scare Luke Skywalker part:

Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,

Taken from Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand

The red part represents scary images, you idiot. Lord Nyax's strategy is same as that of Vitiate but his intent was to motivate Luke to join him and embrace the madness.

The above is similar to what Vitiate did to Lord Scourge but Vitiate was not interested in reducing Lord Scourge to his pwn and therefore withdrew his assault in split-second moment. Vitiate's intent was to warn Lord Scourge of serious consequences for his betrayal. There are however examples of Vitiate causing some Jedi to descend to madness and even destroying there minds. The strategy might be same but the intent behind it is important and determines the outcome.

As for giving someone the desire to join him, Vitiate is a step above this as apparent from:

"He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed." (Revan)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you just assert that raw power has nothing to do with TP defense, and then brag about how powerful Revan and Malak were. I'd accuse anyone else of dishonesty, but honestly, I think you're just stupid.

And no, I'm not a regular drinker, although I'm still significantly smarter than you when I do.
See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I find it astounding that you talk with such a smug and condescending demeanor that suggests you actually think you're brilliant or something. Hasn't real life ever hit you with a cold bucket of water on your delusions? Hasn't school, or work, or your likely failure to achieve any impressive intellectual milestones? You're a laughing stock of pretty much everyone on these forums, even those who wank TOR. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't also an insufferable *sshole, but thanks for being one, because now I feel more morally justified in mocking you.
Not going to entertain this nonsense but I will say one thing:

The magnitude of stupidity and ignorance you have demonstrated in this debate is astounding and you need to look yourself in the mirror.

Without a nexus, I don't see Vitiate stomping anybody here. If he's up against Caedus and Vader fights Arcann, then team one wins. If Vitiate attacks Vader while Arcann fights Caedus, team 2 has a chance.

Vader can't handle Vitiates serious lightning any better than Revan did. In fact, he'd do worse.

Galen's lightning feats are actually superior to Vitiate's, lmao.

No, they aren't.

Play your hand then.

What the hell are you talking about? Nyax didn't horrify Luke - he tried to give him the desire to join, and you took this to mean that his telepathy is analogous to Vitiate's. UnuThul also gave people the desire to join - .ie his is similar to Vitiate's by the same logic that you claim Nyax's is. UnuThul's telepathy being unrefined hardly changes anything - Nyax's is too.

If you think UnuThul's telepathy translates to Vitiate's, Nyax's must too, and so Caedus can resist Vitiate for the same reason Revan, Scourge, Meetra and the Hero can.



This is thoroughly irrelevant to what you were responding to - you were using Scourge's original dream of Vitiate breaking his mind as proof that Vitiate could TP him outright, when it actually just means that he could TP him after he he had already beaten him. It doesn't mean he could overwhelm his mind outright. You still have not demonstrated any examples of an unamped Vitiate dominating a mind comparable to Caedus's or Vader's. At this point, your entire argument hinges on claiming that because a weaker and younger Jacen couldn't outright resist UnuThul, he obviously couldn't resist novel Vitiate, by circularly arguing that Vitiate's TP > UnuThul's because he's had more opportunities to dominate non-Force sensitive populations, and some Jedi clearly far weaker than Jacen. In other words, you have absolutely nothing.



Funny; in another thread you tried to dismiss Taalon's TK'ing of Luke by pointing to injuries Luke had sustained. Now I assume you concede your prior position.

Anyway, you're once again contradicting yourself; your entire case here is predicated on assuming that your ability to resist Force telepathy has nothing to do with your raw power (despite Luke stating in the RotJ novelization that anything generated by the Force can be resisted by the Force). If that's the case, then that Scourge hadn't lost raw power by getting injured wouldn't matter; being injured and lying on the ground would make it much harder to focus, and that is what matters, according to you.

And even if that weren't true, you'd still have no argument; you still haven't provided any actual reasoning as to why you think Vitiate can break their telepathic defenses beyond lazily trying to scale his telepathy with UnuThul's. UnuThul was never in a situation where he had to dominate planets , but he has dominated a lot more impressive Jedi/Sith than Scourge and pre-KotOR Revan. You still have nothing.



They're exceptions because they're exceptionally gifted in the Force, just like Caedus and Vader are. You, once again, have done nothing to suggest that Vitiate can break Force users of their caliber.



You're missing the point - you claim that Vitiate's telepathy can't be resisted by Vader because he hasn't experienced anything like it before, but he has. That he couldn't the first time against Palpatine means nothing.

Palpatine's telepathy is dissimilar from Vitiate's, while incredibly dissimilar telepathy from Nyax and UnuThul are? Seriously?



"not easy" is a meaningless quantifier, as I've explained before and you'll probably never understand. OT Palpatine could dominate a planet of billions; does this mean he could dominate Vitiate?

Now, I want you to actually justify your assertion that telepathic defense has nothing to do with raw power, when it a) just happens to be that the ones with the best TP defense feats are really powerful Force users and b) every single other Force defense correlates to raw power. And if you can somehow substantiate this, I want you to present a cogent case for why Vitiate can dominate the team here, when he's never dominated anyone beyond a conflicted pre-KotOR Revan. Please, please answer this.



No, because he couldn't dominate him for the purposes of winning a confrontation.



I love how you just vaguely call prep and nexus jabs "misleading and disingenuous" without explaining how a nexus that explicitly strengthens his power in the dark side...wouldn't strengthen his ability to use the dark side.

I still see no actual arguments for you to justify your notion that Vitiate can dominate Vader and Caedus's minds. He's never dominated anyone of their caliber,

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD ]




I haven't cited the example of Vitiate managing to warp the minds of Revan and Malak in that sense. I cited this example in the context of both being battle-hardened and strong-willed individuals at the time. Revan being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at this point is a trump card that I utilize against claims that raw power makes much difference in this regard (just like yours). Moreover, being more powerful is not just about raw power.



Seriously? You think dominating Revan translates to dominating Caedus because Revan is "battle hardened" and "strong willed"? When Caedus was f*cking tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong?

Revan at that point had beaten a bunch of Mandos. Caedus had f*cking dealt with a Force-immune extra-galactic invasion force when he was a teenager. Oh, and he fooled Luke Skywalker multiple times with his illusions. The notion that he can be compared to pre-KOTOR Revan and Malak is ridiculous.




Except he clearly can here, because otherwise he'd have just mind controlled him.



*facepalm* You were making the argument that how horrific a telepathic attack is portrayed establishes how effective it is. This "split-second moment" is still more horrific than UnuThul's, so by your logic it ALONE should have been enough. The fact that Vitiate was holding back is irrelevant - your argument is predicated on taking the description of the event as an indicator of its power unto itself, so Vitiate's holding-back TP should still be > UnuThul's by your metric, and his full-power one should just be more effective. But this is clearly wrong, so your metric is bullshit.

BTW, it also contradicts your previous claim that Nyax's TP was different from Vitiate's because it tries to give people the desire and eagerness to join, .ie you can't belittle it for not being horrific because it isn't trying to be.

That's like saying Palpatine is a sh*tty manipulator in the PT compared to a mafia crime lord because you don't see him intimidating the Jedi. He wasn't trying to, he was using another strategy. Duh.



You literally don't understand elementary logical statements. Your argument was "if more horrific then more effective". This if-then fails given your very example, that Scourge wasn't broken by it. That Vitiate was holding back has nothing to do with the failure of your conditional.



Dude, the passage describes Luke LONGING to join in on the slaughter, not being horrified by it. Jesus f*cking Christ.



No, the strategy isn't the same. Vitiate's strategy is breaking people; Nyax's is tempting people. You've not established any link between the two.



What? He's better at it because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan? What feats does pre-KotOR Revan have again?

Once again, we get back to ground zero; you can't establish that Vitiate can overpower Caedus or Vader when his more powerful incarnation can't overpower the Outlander. You just keep asserting this over and over again.



No, I don't need to see above. Above doesn't provide any actual justifications for your assertion that raw power doesn't correlate to telepathic defense when every other Force ability does.



Nah, there's a reason why nobody here takes you seriously (except for Neph, and nobody takes him seriously either).

Ellimist has a lot of damn energy...

A lot of free time, at least.

At least these back-and-forths are somewhat entertaining...

Classic.

Team 1
Arcann can't compete with either

Team 1 wins, yeah.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Vader solos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense.

http://www.sympato.ch/smileys/Rolling.gif

This isn't necessarily a bad fight per se, but it's solidly in team 1's favor.