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Prime, unhinged Luke Skywalker

vs.

Satele
Malgus
Act II HoT
Act II Wrath
Act II Nox
Thanaton
Marr

Marr clinches it for the team

Feats for Luke that compare to killing Zakuul soldiers with spears?

TOR team. Luke can't take all of them out fast enough.

The Strike Team soundly.

Kek, Luke TK's team into Oblivion.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kek, Luke TK's team into Oblivion.
Sorry, this is ridiculous assumption. Luke isn't that powerful.

But Revan is? lel You've got half baked versions of the protags and a bunch of senior citizens against a "unhinged" Luke Skywalker. They all die. And it's painful.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But Revan is? lel You've got half baked versions of the protags and a bunch of senior citizens against a "unhinged" Luke Skywalker. They all die. And it's painful.
Revan was worn down and eventually overwhelmed. Revan's spirit later remarked that you (i.e. Dark! Revan) had great strength but were not thinking clearly. The protagonist agreed.

Luke Skywalker isn't taking on a Strike Team of this size and quality and prevailing.

No he wasn't. The other Revan had to help the team because they were pretty much LOLdead.

That's great, LeGenD. Your opinion is noted. I'll wait for some actually impressive feats from this team to surface before I draw that conclusion. No this is not an invitation to empty your hard drive of TOR quotes here like it's some prostitute's mouth. I've played the game and already seen every quote you spam regularly hundreds of times.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No he wasn't. The other Revan had to help the team because they were pretty much LOLdead.
Dark! Revan was fighting them on a focal point of the Dark Side as well, a setting where he had advantage.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's great, LeGenD. Your opinion is noted. I'll wait for some actually impressive feats from this team to surface before I draw that conclusion. No this is not an invitation to empty your hard drive of TOR quotes here like it's some prostitute's mouth. I've played the game and already seen every quote you spam regularly hundreds of times.
Right.

Now show me an example of Luke Skywalker affecting/dominating scores of powerful Force-users with his powers. Just show me one.

And a good half, at least, of the Force Users there are Sith, kek.
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4788440-luke+telekinetically+throws+palpatine.jpg

The above is a better feat than throwing around randoms.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And a good half, at least, of the Force Users there are Sith, kek.
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4788440-luke+telekinetically+throws+palpatine.jpg
That is one target to concentrate all your energies towards.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The above is a better feat than throwing around randoms.
Members of the Strike Team are randoms now?

Your are probably drunk at the moment.

Freshest is crushing tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is one target to concentrate all your energies towards.

That one target is Darth Sidious, lulz.

They were always randoms. Some of them literally joined at random.

No, but you're definitely being stupid.

I'm on my phone right now; a pre-NJO Luke muses in a novel that he could rip the hulls of warships and dominate the ship crews' minds if he really wanted to, but then he gets scared of the dark side and imagines Palpatine and Exar Kun laughing at him.

It kind of gives you a picture of how much Luke typically holds back. This is like 25 years before his displayed "prime".

Also note how Luke casually pins Caedus to his chair without even gesturing; this is the same Caedus who is described as being stronger than Darth Vader and Kyp Durron. It might be the most impressive display of sheer ownage in the mythos.

Meanwhile, none of the sith protags hold any such reservations, but they still can't do anything of the sort.

got a quote for that?

(Specter of the Past)

damn

Ships (New Luke Skywalket Respect Thread 2009):

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_gunship
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaloth_battlecruiser
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corsair-class_assault_starfighter

Bane would die

Btw ripping hull plates off of ships is a helluva lot harder than lifting them.

>>> Vitiate's wanked nexus temple feat lol.

This pleases Exar Kun wank.

JA Luke's feats are so much worse than his DE ones, even ignoring Kun, that it's tough to buy him being stronger. My head canon says turning to the dark side sort of scared him into holding himself out, and he only outstrips DE by late New Republic era (ie Black Fleet Crisis).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That one target is Darth Sidious, lulz.
So?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They were always randoms. Some of them literally joined at random.
They are all well-known characters. Some have decent showings.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, but you're definitely being stupid.
Sorry, but your assessment is utterly stupid.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That one target is Darth Sidious, lulz.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So?


http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif

By your own admission, Dark Empire Palpatine is more powerful than novel Vitiate, and he's on a dark side nexus here. Shoving him is significantly more impressive than ragdolling a bunch of comparative lightweights like act II Nox and Malgus, rofl.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Btw ripping hull plates off of ships is a helluva lot harder than lifting them.

>>> Vitiate's wanked nexus temple feat lol.
Your comparison doesn't makes any sense.

You realize how massive Dark Temple was? It was also extremely durable and designed to prevent even Sith spirits from escaping.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif
Affecting Palpatine isn't impossible. That example proves it.

Even Mace Windu affected Palpatine with his telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Affecting Palpatine isn't impossible. That example proves it.

This is Darth Ant levels of circular logic fail.



When did the amped, peak performance Mace Windu who was drawing off Sidious's own energy do that?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is Darth Ant levels of circular logic fail.
You think that it is impossible to affect Palpatine?

Tol Braga could affect Hero of Tython with his telekinetic abilities but he was not strong enough to defeat the latter in a confrontation.

Similarly, Ahsoka Tano could affect Darth Vader with her telekinetic abilities but she was not strong enough to defeat the latter in a confrontation.

Similarly, Luke Skywalker could affect Palpatine with his telekinetic abilities but he was not strong enough to defeat the latter in a confrontation.

Therefore, Luke's feat doesn't tells us much.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You realize how massive Dark Temple was?

He brings down like one modest sized chunk, Scourge says that the temple is coming apart, and then you run away. It's not like he one-shots it, lol. Luke thinks he can take out battle cruisers in real-time combat, which impresses me a lot more. If you want to look at more gradual destruction feats, look to Luke's destruction of Vader's fortress.



Source? I'd love to hear your reasoning for how an ancient, several thousand year old temple rivals post-OT era warships in durability, roflamo.



That doesn't seem related to its physical durability.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You think that it is impossible to affect Palpatine?

Of course it isn't. Luke affected him. Who said it was impossible? This has nothing to do with whether or not it is comparatively more impressive than ragdolling some relative nobodies.



But Tol could not have affected Vitiate in a fair fight. There's a certain level of parity implied by Luke's feat.

Not that this should even be a meaningful distinction - are you suggesting that prime Luke wouldn't be comparable to Palpatine?



It tells us that, thirty+ years before his prime, he's already done better against a nexus-amped Palpatine than the strike team could've done against Vitiate, who you've put roughly on Wankatine's level, not even considering the nexus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He brings down like one modest sized chunk, Scourge says that the temple is coming apart, and then you run away. It's not like he one-shots it, lol. Luke thinks he can take out battle cruisers in real-time combat, which impresses me a lot more. If you want to look at more gradual destruction feats, look to Luke's destruction of Vader's fortress.
You are ignoring the context in these matters.

Vitiate was at his weakest when he attempted to crush Hero of Tython beneath tons of rock. Vitiate still managed to collapse an entire chamber of the Dark Temple and damage the entire structure.

If Vitiate was at his full strength, he would have collapsed the entire Dark Temple and then some.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Source? I'd love to hear your reasoning for how an ancient, several thousand year old temple rivals post-OT era warships in durability, roflamo.
The structure's walls were extremely thick and it was designed to prevent escape of prisoners of the Empire (living and/or dead).

Have a look: http://www.askajedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/The-Dark-Temple.jpg

B/W Star Wars doesn't follows the logic of improvement of technology and materials with passage of time to the letter.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't seem related to its physical durability.
It tells you something about the reinforced mechanisms of the structure.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Of course it isn't. Luke affected him. Who said it was impossible? This has nothing to do with whether or not it is comparatively more impressive than ragdolling some relative nobodies.
How are members of the Strike Team in question relative nobodies?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But Tol could not have affected Vitiate in a fair fight. There's a certain level of parity implied by Luke's feat.

Not that this should even be a meaningful distinction - are you suggesting that prime Luke wouldn't be comparable to Palpatine?
http://40.media.tumblr.com/31950a8dde52ecd8682a85400b5b3aff/tumblr_inline_nsiqv6OvZw1rm8mui_400.png

My point is that you don't have to be on par with someone to affect him with your powers.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It tells us that, thirty+ years before his prime, he's already done better against a nexus-amped Palpatine than the strike team could've done against Vitiate, who you've put roughly on Wankatine's level, not even considering the nexus.
Vitiate did not give that Strike Team enough time to affect him. He acted swiftly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate was at his weakest when he attempted to crush Hero of Tython beneath tons of rock. Vitiate still managed to collapse an entire chamber of the Dark Temple and damage the entire structure.


He is also on a dark side nexus. Luke thinks he can do something significantly more impressive without a nexus, in real-time, decades before his prime.

Luke also has manipulated dovin basals, pinned Caedus to his chair with a gesture, f*cked Caedus into seeing illusory fleets, f*cked Caedus's starfighter with him in it, resisted the telekinesis of UnuThul, and cloaked capital ships. The notion that this strike team could do anything against him if he were going all-out requires a little bit of elaboration, given that it's pretty heavily implied that they collectively could not have defeated the Sith Emperor, who has never replicated any of these things.



Sure he would.

Face it: using his own, raw power, he's never pulled off anything as impressive as a pre-NJO Luke could have done. If he has, you should show us where.



And you think this makes it comparable to an actual warship designed to tank thermonuclear warheads?



Yes, it does. There are explicit and noticeable improvements in the ships from the Clone Wars to the Imperial era, and by LotF Caedus considers the former's vessels to be a "junkyard" and "ancient hardware", and this is over the course of a few decades. Of the course of the millenia, ships have gotten significantly larger, their hyperdrive classes have improved, new technologies have been developed, and old ones have grown obsolete (like personal shielding due to more powerful blasters). Otherwise the Republic would just reuse all of its older ships instead of commissioning corporations to design new ones.

Regardless, you're still comparing a temple to battle cruisers, lol.



Which relates to its difficulty in shattering...how, exactly?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How are members of the Strike Team in question relative nobodies?


Next to the reborn Emperor on a dark side nexus, who unamped you consider to be slightly weaker than SWTOR Vitiate? Seriously? This entire strike team couldn't have defeated Vitiate, that was made pretty f*cking clear.



Oh, I'm well aware of what your argument was, Legend. Too bad it was attacking a strawman - nobody was suggesting that DE Luke was on par with Palpatine. People were just pointing out that you have to be somewhat close to a combatant to affect them, hence my Baga vs. Vitiate point that you somehow couldn't connect with our discussion. Nobody on this strike team has ever done anything on that level, and this is Dark Empire Luke.



Do you think the strike team could have beaten Vitiate?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He is also on a dark side nexus.
No where it is stated that Vitiate could benefit from the nature of setting during his most compromised state.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke thinks he can do something significantly more impressive without a nexus, in real-time, decades before his prime.
What characters may think should not be blindly taken at face value.

I recall a character thinking that he could literally break the planet apart during a moment of gathering power. So should we take this thought at face value?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke also has manipulated dovin basals,
Yes, and Kyp Durron (who is Darth Vader level Force-user at best). Just drop it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
pinned Caedus to his chair with a gesture,
Darth Malgus sent an entire Strike Team (comprising of Act III protagonists) packing across the hall with his telekinetic abilities.

Revan sent an entire Strike Team packing across the arena. Those on the receiving end included Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko and one of the protagonists.

Granted that Revan is not in the Strike Team but Darth Malgus is. Luke Skywalker doesn't have a comparable showing in combat situation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
f*cked Caedus into seeing illusory fleets, f*cked Caedus's starfighter with him in it, resisted the telekinesis of UnuThul, and cloaked capital ships.
Good for him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The notion that this strike team could do anything against him if he were going all-out requires a little bit of elaboration, given that it's pretty heavily implied that they collectively could not have defeated the Sith Emperor, who has never replicated any of these things.
Satele Shan ripped a blast door apart with a mere touch. She also killed 3 Sith Warriors with a blast of power before they could even react. She also blew apart scores of Hex droids with a gesture. She also have Battle Meditation to assist her companions.

Darth Malgus defeated some of the strongest Jedi of his era in single combat; individuals with impressive showings under their belt and not just hype. Palpatine believed that his battlefield feats have never been duplicated.

Darth Marr was one of the most powerful Sith of the Empire. He easily bested powerful Darth Lachris in a confrontation intended to test her abilities, routed entire armies from the battlefield and was able to dominate scores of Knights of Zakuul.

Darth Thanaton was one of the most powerful Sith of the Empire. He became a master of Sith Sorcery and arcane techniques. Darth Nox had to bind several Force ghosts to himself and undergo metamorphosis from Mother Machine to defeat Darth Thanaton.

4 x Act II protagonists were sufficient to overwhelm Revan on the Foundry. We have 3 of them here.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure he would.

Face it: using his own, raw power, he's never pulled off anything as impressive as a pre-NJO Luke could have done. If he has, you should show us where.
Yes, and it is a sound assumption.

Vaylin also tore a 20 story structure apart and she is not comparable to Vitiate either.

Utter nonsense. When Luke would be able to destroy worlds. Let me know.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And you think this makes it comparable to an actual warship designed to tank thermonuclear warheads?
What makes you think that the Starships Luke was thinking about could tank nuclear explosions?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, it does. There are explicit and noticeable improvements in the ships from the Clone Wars to the Imperial era, and by LotF Caedus considers the former's vessels to be a "junkyard" and "ancient hardware", and this is over the course of a few decades. Of the course of the millenia, ships have gotten significantly larger, their hyperdrive classes have improved, new technologies have been developed, and old ones have grown obsolete (like personal shielding due to more powerful blasters). Otherwise the Republic would just reuse all of its older ships instead of commissioning corporations to design new ones.

Regardless, you're still comparing a temple to battle cruisers, lol.
No, it doesn't. There is ancient era stuff that puts everything shown in the movies and later years to shame. Look no further then creations/technologies of the Celestials and Rakatans.

The ancient Sith Empire managed to develop class 5 (and above) hyperdrives. The Empire also managed to develop starships with sufficient firepower to one-shot an entire fleet and even a planet. Size is not a good benchmark to judge performance of things.

The Republic had disbanded much of its military capability during the era of peace.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which relates to its difficulty in shattering...how, exactly?
The reinforced mechanisms could be Sith Sorcery based. Materials do not prevent spirits from passing through, do they?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Next to the reborn Emperor on a dark side nexus, who unamped you consider to be slightly weaker than SWTOR Vitiate? Seriously? This entire strike team couldn't have defeated Vitiate, that was made pretty f*cking clear.
Vitiate specializes in AoE based talents, more-so then most; such specialization grants him advantage against scores of opponents during a combat situation.

Palpatine developed some AoE capabilities as well but he did not put them to good use against Strike Teams. He put more faith in his dueling skills in such scenarios.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh, I'm well aware of what your argument was, Legend. Too bad it was attacking a strawman - nobody was suggesting that DE Luke was on par with Palpatine. People were just pointing out that you have to be somewhat close to a combatant to affect them, hence my Baga vs. Vitiate point that you somehow couldn't connect with our discussion. Nobody on this strike team has ever done anything on that level, and this is Dark Empire Luke.
Darth Malgus and Revan were able to affect entire Strike Teams with their telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you think the strike team could have beaten Vitiate?
See my expanation above

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No where it is stated that Vitiate could benefit from the nature of setting during his most compromised state.

Why does it have to be stated that a dark side nexus specifically cultivated by Vitiate...would empower a dark side Force user, .ie Vitiate?



The difference is that Luke Skywalker doesn't have a history of arrogance or self-aggrandization, and indeed seems to do the opposite, considering Obi Wan to be his superior even as of Dark Empire and jolting at being called a Jedi Master by Gantoris.

Likewise, it's not like this is even close to his greatest feat, lol.



Nice circular logic. It doesn't change the fact that it's a more impressive telekinesis feat than anything anyone in TOR has done.



Oohhh, he sent a strike team with Act III protagonists packing! This totally compares with pinning without a gesture a guy more powerful than Vader, and then keeping him there without any apparent effort.



In other words, nobody who is explicitly more powerful than someone whose apprentice could TK star destroyers.



Yeah, sending powerhouses like Beniko packing totally compares to Force pushing Sidious 30 years before your prime.

Hang on a second, didn't you try to lecture me on that other thread about how TK'ing people doesn't mean anything? Why does it suddenly matter for you now? Oh, right, because it does typically imply some level of comparative ability depending on context, right? Well, the context here is that Luke doesn't just shove Caedus, he pins him and holds him there at his leisure without any apparent effort, to the point where Caedus couldn't even move his limbs. That's a more substantial showing that just getting out a TK attack at the beginning of a battle you eventually lose.



Brilliant rebuttal. What's to stop him from casting likewise illusions on powerhouses like Darth Marr?



All the feats you mention are nothing next to ripping hulls off of battle cruisers. Battle meditation depends on Luke somehow not being able to reach or affect her with TK, electric judgment, etc.



LOL, you think him defeating "some of the strongest Jedi of his era" somehow constitutes a meaningful, quantifiable feat, against someone who defeated Emperor Palpatine, UnuThul, and Caedus?



Absolutely none of this impresses me. Ohhh, he's one of the most powerful sith of the empire - how does this matter to me, when Luke is the most powerful Jedi of all time?




I'm not asking you to throw out vague descriptions of their abilities. I'm asking you to actually compare them with Luke in a meaningful, rigorous manner. You aren't saying anything here.

(I've pointed this fundamental criticism of your debating to you multiple times, and the reply is already the same; to literally do the exact same thing in reply, while giving no indication that this failure has registered to you. Every single debate you get yourself into just involves you throwing out lists of feats, or moreso vague adjectives, without giving any sort of meaningful analysis or comparison. This conversation seems to be degrading in the same manner.)



Oohhh, they can overwhelm Foundry Revan!



Vitiate uses the Nathema ritual on Ziost. Show me the basis for your assumption, rather than just calling it sound. You keep avoiding this request for actual evidence, for whatever reason.



Saxton's ICSs? Turbolasers are >>>>> nuclear-yield, as are proton torpedos (which are literally thermonuclear), and presumably these battle cruisers aren't one-shotted by anyone with a torpedo, given their size (300 meters, essentially small capital ships).



How are the Celestials and Rataka remotely relevant to the Dark Temple? You aren't making any sense.



You have it reversed; lower numbers indicate faster hyperdrives.




Oneshotting fleets is an entirely circular achievement, and I'd love you to show me where an ancient empire has one-shotted a planet Death Star style, blown up stars, or destroyed planets from light-years away.




And the Empire happened to obsolete its hardware and develop new ones, which were already going out of phase by LotF, and of which aren't used anymore by Legacy. Technology advances.

But again, we're comparing battle cruisers with a temple.



Concession accepted; shielding against spirits has nothing to do with physical toughness, and is therefore irrelevant to the question.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate specializes in AoE based talents, more-so then most; such specialization grants him advantage against scores of opponents during a combat situation.


Funny, he "specializes in AoE based talents" (I've never heard this before), yet he's never actually matched Luke's AoE telekinetic attacks during the Vong war.



He's been faced with precisely one strike team in his life, and actually does overwhelm pretty much all of them within seconds. The idea that the protag strike teams could've taken him down is lolworthy.



Why do you keep repeating this point in awkward, cringe-worthy language without bothering to explain why this matters? These strike teams are collectively not a match for Vitiate; the fact that Vitiate "specializes in AoE attacks" doesn't change the fact that he still needs to be more powerful than them for those AoE attacks to work. It's more impressive, as Freshest points out, to Force push Sidious on a dark side nexus (and, I'd say, UnuThul) than a strike team collectively weaker than him.

Of course, you reply to this point by claiming that affecting people telekinetically doesn't matter...while basing your entire argument on how Revan and Malgus can affect people telekinetically.