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Peak Vader vs Peak Revan who wins?
1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Vader
Revan
Revan

SINIOUS

HELLO

WANT TO JOIN THIS GOOGLE HANGOUT WITH ME AND DMB?

Revan's on the same level as Darth Vader as a swordsman and a more diverse and powerful Force-user when its pertains to actual combat. He wins.

Your move, Freshest.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
SINIOUS

HELLO

WANT TO JOIN THIS GOOGLE HANGOUT WITH ME AND DMB? next time

Why next time? Why not now?

Originally posted by Sinious
Vader
Revan
Revan

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's on the same level as Darth Vader as a swordsman and a more diverse and powerful Force-user when its pertains to actual combat. He wins.

Your move, Freshest.

You think he gives a shit?

Well, I hope. I've been waiting three months for this debate.

He just wants the forum to die lel

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why next time? Why not now? Cause its morning here, and I have to leave for a couple hours.

Originally posted by Sinious
Cause its morning here, and I have to leave for a couple hours.

Originally posted by Sinious
next time

I'm not exactly sure what Vader has to do with the Godlander, myself.

I love you no heteromo

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not exactly sure what Vader has to do with the Godlander, myself.
Revan would telekinetically dominate the Outlander (even with the lightsaber of destiny).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan would telekinetically dominate the Outlander (even with the lightsaber of destiny).
Arcann: I remain the greatest power the galaxy has ever seen.
>loses to the Outlander


Revan is the Heart of the Force
The Outlander is the Force's commander

Ergo, the Outlander is Revan's commander, and he bends the knee to his Immortal Majesty.

mmm

While I can't fight that reasoning, I do anticipate Arcann to show a telekinetic superiority over the Hero of Tython in their fight, even if he's slated for death.

tbh Revan has never done anything to match Vader/Galen's wank in TFU I/II. The creator suggested that Vader was going to have crushed the Starkiller clone in the third one and that he had let him win; this is the same Starkiller who disintegrated a 300 meter cruiser.

If we're going with what writers envisioned but it never came true, Revan was slated to be contending with and defeating Sith who could shape galaxies in KotOR 3.

I think it's worth noting that it took 31 years for Darth Vader to get really impressive feats, and it's all from the same source. Most other works don't portray him that way.

Darth Angral comes back and force pushes them off a cliff.

RIP Old Republic, Galaxies was better.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If we're going with what writers envisioned but it never came true, Revan was slated to be contending with and defeating Sith who could shape galaxies in KotOR 3.


Yeah, well, KotOR 3 never happened. Not that "shaping galaxies" is a very well defined feat.



He has impressive feats (like collapsing a cathedral and killing seven Jedi), but his most impressive do come from TFU, yes. That doesn't somehow invalidate them; his portrayal in other mediums doesn't contradict TFU's storyline, to which such levels of power are necessary to move forward (such as Galen pulling down the ISD or landing the cruiser - they're explicit events that happen in the continuity). Most of the time, he doesn't really find himself facing Galen-tier foes.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Arcann: I remain the greatest power the galaxy has ever seen.
>loses to the Outlander


Revan is the Heart of the Force
The Outlander is the Force's commander

Ergo, the Outlander is Revan's commander, and he bends the knee to his Immortal Majesty.
Damn, owned.

Revan as the heart is needed for the Force to exist
The Outlander as the commander just commands it

You can replace a soldier's commander but you can't replace a soldier's internal organs wtf

Revan more important confirmed

Neph has shit tier logic 0/10

And how good is a heart in a fight, b8tch? I'd beat a heart. I'd beat a hundred hearts. They ain't all that.

A commander can use the force to **** shit up. A heart can just pump like a big useless *******. Its just a liability in a fight ffs.

Your heartrate controls your life you dumbass

Love is the only quantifiable trait that extends throughout time, love and gravity, that's how Cooper and Murph save humanity.

I control my heartrate. Fool. That I continue to allow it to beat. Is my daily gift to it. And the world.

Friendship > Love, dunkass. Friendship is the greatest magic of them all in canon.

Vader.
Revan.
Undecided.

What force feats does Revan have that are superior to Vader's?

Telekinetically dominating and then incapacitating Darth Marr, Satele Shan, and Lana Beniko at the same time, and Force pushing a distracted Vitiate, to name two.

lol, so nothing then.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, well, KotOR 3 never happened.
The Force Unleashed 3 never happened either. I'm glad to see you got the point.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not that "shaping galaxies" is a very well defined feat.
It reveals a type of power that's indisputably beyond Darth Vader at the bare minimum.


Neither of which are that impressive. For all of Darth Vader's showings in the Force against inanimate matter and structures, he consistently fails to demonstrate any sort of absolute superiority over his enemies through the Force, unlike Revan. Showings against Force-users are always to be taken with greater value than that against stone and metal. And killing seven Jedi with great difficulty doesn't compare to Revan killing "hundreds" of Sith on Korriban and even more on the Star Forge.


It rather does. Darth Vader's being shown as someone who no Jedi can hope to stand against, while all other works show weak Jedi consistently challenging and scoring blows against him. It gives me the impression that, perhaps, the fact the story developers specifically wanted to make an over-the-top game with overpowered characters is a large reason for the inconsistency. It's also worth mentioning that Darth Vader failed to display a Force edge against Galen Marek in their two main confrontations regardless.


That's because he's getting humiliated by far lesser foes.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol, so nothing then.
The notion that Darth Vader could overwhelm the trio in question when he's never came close to exerting the same battlefield domination against any Jedi he's ever fought, let alone multiple ones that are significantly more powerful than the ones he regularly fights, is laughable.

It's not like Revan would kill Vader anyway. Revan forgot how to.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not like Revan would kill Vader anyway. Revan forgot how to.
If you want to believe that the eight protagonists did not fight Revan on the Temple of Sacrifice, what evidence do you then have that the team that instead fought him suffered no casualties?

And then, couldn't the same be said about Soa, who is clearly well beyond Darth Vader and friends?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Force Unleashed 3 never happened either. I'm glad to see you got the point.


Too bad the point of the TFUIII reference was to cite the creator's opinion on the events of the second game, mainly that Vader let him win. That's a distinct line of argument from appealing to proposed story-lines that irreconcilably contradict what actually happens.

Not that it matters - Vader's TFUI powerscaling is enough.



You'd have to go into more detail than "shape the galaxy" - Darth Vader certainly shapes the galaxy through his own actions as the Chosen One. Heck, Mon Mothma shapes the galaxy too.

But anyway, the game never happened, so this line of reasoning is irrelevant.



You're actually digging Revan into a hole here. The interesting thing about feats against inanimate objects is that they're relatively stable "enemies", as opposed to Force-sensitive opponents that never fight one another and so cannot be clearly scaled. The fact that Vader can pull off more impressive feats than Revan, yet still cannot seem to ragdoll, say, Obi Wan, is just an indication that Obi Wan is a lot stronger than you think he is, not that AT-ATs and cruisers are not.

BTW, Revan may initially ragdoll the strike team, but he ultimately loses.



It's also the more recent source material, more relevant than most to the timeline (founding of the rebellion), and the one with the most realistic graphics. And it's pretty circular to declare these Jedi that score blows against him to be "weak" when we otherwise don't know how powerful they are.

Also, Vader's power isn't some sort of stable variable - he's stronger in TFU than he would be in earlier years, and he's stronger in RotJ than he is in TFU.

Also, it's pretty silly to try to discount TFU feats for having the stench of wank, and then to base your support of Revan on TOR ones.



They were evidently comparable enough for the distinction to be meaningless for the purposes of this debate. Galen Marek's Force feats eclipse anything anyone in TOR barring Vitiate has done.



Like taking on a guy who can disintegrate cruisers and one-shot hundreds of stormtroopers at the same time?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you want to believe that the eight protagonists did not fight Revan on the Temple of Sacrifice, what evidence do you then have that the team that instead fought him suffered no casualties?

And then, couldn't the same be said about Soa, who is clearly well beyond Darth Vader and friends?
Killing nothing in 300 years is pretty impressive, I agree.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Killing nothing in 300 years is pretty impressive, I agree.
Concession accepted.

We were never debating. uhuh


Vader needed to be cast aside to promote growth of the real Jesus of Star Wars. The HoTrailer.

If you choose to face Revan at the ToS, only the four protags from either faction face him.

http://i.imgur.com/OmyQjHS.png

We've seen that since December 2014. It's April 2016. Keep up with the times.

Well I suppose I should expect confirmation biased from you.

The game is telling you that you can't play with cross-faction characters (and most likely specifically stated to avoid confusion).

It doesn't overwrite the fact the entire point of the mission was for joint cooperation between both Jedi and Sith forces against Revan.

None of the other protagonists are there until I see further confirmation.

Half the protags are fodder anyway lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The game is telling you that you can't play with cross-faction characters (and most likely specifically stated to avoid confusion).

It doesn't overwrite the fact the entire point of the mission was for joint cooperation between both Jedi and Sith forces against Revan. Unless you choose not to foster cooperation, and confront Revan with your factions own resources. Which is also kinda the point. mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Half the protags are fodder anyway lol.
I don't think you understand just how good of a shot the Bounty Hunter is.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Unless you choose not to foster cooperation, and confront Revan with your factions own resources. Which is also kinda the point. mmm
Which contradicts everyone saying "we must unite or fall."

srs though the non-Force sensitives and honestly most of the sith protags are probably more useful to Revan as projectiles.

I will take your silence on the issue as a concession. RotJ Vader > TFU Vader ~ Galen >>> Revan. GG

There's only two Sith protags, how can there be a "most"?

Also kek, Cipher 9 pwned Jadus and the Champ pwned a Battlemaster. They sure didn't seem to be just projectiles when they killed Revan the first time.

I must have forgot the part where it was confirmed the Agent or the Bounty Hunter killed Revan.

BTW, seeing as how Revan loses to the strike team, you can't equate them.

Vader's apprentice can disintegrate 300 meter cruisers, GG.

Cmon we all know Cipher 9 solo'd him.

Who would send Cipher 9 to do anything involving the Foundry?

No. It seemed to convey the idea that, when writing the script for the third game, they went back and thought about things differently, and thus the comments. This is supported by the fact that neither the novelization nor comic conveyed the message that Darth Vader intentionally let Starkiller win. It specifically made note of his intentions to use Juno Eclipse as bait to make Starkiller his dark apprentice again, thus "irreconcilably contradicting what" you are trying to argue.


I enjoy how you were intentionally vague since no powerscalling provided in the game can match the powerscalling, or even direct quotes, that can be used with Revan.

Feel free to fill me in on your next move quickly so I can choose from eighty-seven different quotes praising Revan's power in comparison to others to match and beat it.



"Part of the fun with designing them was if you have these incredibly powerful Force users and they have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy, what would that Sith empire really look like at the hands of these things? If they could shape entire planets or galaxies or nebulas, and they had all these slave races at their disposal, how cool would that be, to go into the heart of darkness and you're the lone Jedi and/or new version of the Sith confronting these guys? What would that be like? I thought that would be pretty epic."


Easily one of the worst arguments ever constructed in the history of this forum (note that Beniboybling is an active member here).

Characters' powers in relative to the grand scheme of things are clearly evident. In a rare situation where they aren't, a simple debate can establish that.

The domination of characters in battle is far more relevant than moving or collapsing a structure since it actually shows the characters' abilities in battle. Your argument that "Darth Vader isn't bad, just every other Jedi he fought during the Jedi Purge is fantastic" is ridiculous. Many of the Jedi that Darth Vader fought don't have the praise, feats, or even implication that they are greater than the rank-and-file Dark Jedi that Revan slaughtered through en masse. The fact he didn't overwhelm them, despite being challenged in many circumstances, makes abundantly clear he can't against an opponent like Revan, who tanked a concentrated blast that threatened to affect all life in a one kilometer radius.

Unless you wish to argue that Jedi X is more powerful than Darth Marr or Satele Shan, in which any grain of credibility you have is diminished?


Due to the intervention of his spirit. He had the strike team dead to rights otherwise. Try again.


There's an ongoing Darth Vader comic series and a television show that both put Darth Vader back in his place.


And so that means all the content concerning its foundation is to be looked upon in the same light?


That's... that's not even remotely relevant.


No, it's not. There's no evidence that most are greater than your average Jedi, which are comparatively weak compared to the higher tiers.

Your argument that all these Jedi can stand against Darth Vader because "they're just that good" is quickly crumbling any hope for him beating Revan.


I never denied that. I fail to see how that would create such a drastic change, however, when Darth Vader close to RotJ sometimes still fails to live up to the hype.


Do you have quotes from the makers of SWTOR that state they specifically wanted the characters' Force abilities to be "amped up"? If not, sit down.


Your response doesn't remotely correlate with what I said. Why are we ignoring 37 Darth Vader confrontations and just focusing on the two he did the best in?

Seems like desperation.

For the record, don't bother responding, you should be banned by either tonight or early tomorrow for socking.

Why wouldn't you send the guy who solo'd the greatest Sith Vitiates empire ever produced to take out a loser like Revan???

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which contradicts everyone saying "we must unite or fall." How? A single non-joint op hardly negates all the cooperation that made it possible in the first place. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This is supported by the fact that neither the novelization nor comic conveyed the message that Darth Vader intentionally let Starkiller win. It specifically made note of his intentions to use Juno Eclipse as bait to make Starkiller his dark apprentice again, thus "irreconcilably contradicting what" you are trying to argue.No, the novel implies Vader was holding back, which is what Witwer claims he was doing...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How? A single non-joint op hardly negates all the cooperation that made it possible in the first place.
Most of Revan's forces were concentrated within the temple he was in, last time I checked.

The main point of the cooperation was to overwhelm the temple's defenses, hence why a joint operation force against Revan was necessary.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, the novel implies Vader was holding back, which is what Witwer claims he was doing...

"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked."

Yeah, that certainly sounds like Darth Vader holding back when the text directly notes he was giving his all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you have quotes from the makers of SWTOR that state they specifically wanted the characters' Force abilities to be "amped up"? If not, sit down.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/tfu%20exaggerated%201_zpshduyqomd.png

In that they're out of line with what we see in the films. Just blown up and outta control. You see similar shit in SWTOR.

Not that it matters, since they're all Legends anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. It seemed to convey the idea that, when writing the script for the third game, they went back and thought about things differently, and thus the comments. This is supported by the fact that neither the novelization nor comic conveyed the message that Darth Vader intentionally let Starkiller win. It specifically made note of his intentions to use Juno Eclipse as bait to make Starkiller his dark apprentice again, thus "irreconcilably contradicting what" you are trying to argue.


The novelization takes place from Starkiller's perspective, and obviously wouldn't reveal Vader's trick because it was supposed to be a reveal. TFUIII was never made because Disney purchased Star Wars, for f*ck's sake.



TFU Vader is on Starkiller's level, and Starkiller can disintegrate cruisers and one-shot hundreds of stormtroopers at the same time.



Too bad it never happened and you got left with TOR instead, eh?

And you also have no idea if hypothetical Revan actually matches them in power, lol.



I love how nowhere in your reply do you actually respond to the argument that you were quoting, and instead just repeat your original assertion in different wording. I'm not going to deal with the circular reasoning fallacy you repeat again with respect to Vader's enemies, since it seems to be a little beyond your abilities. I'll instead deal with the only two hints of an actual argument that made your way into this:

1. vs. feats are more relevant to combat - too bad the feats in question, like Vader standing up to Galen and Galen one-shotting hundreds of soldiers at once, happen in the middle of combat. Try again.

2. Revan tanked a blast that could "affect life" within a one kilometer radius - Vader was standing right next to Starkiller's suicide blast that was visible from space, lol. Try again.

The original point that you completely ignored was that feat vs. "inanimate objects" provide us with a common reference point that controls for the confounding variable of unknown-strength opponents. When you finally graduate from high school, you might have to take a statistics class that will test you on things like this.



A strike team of people who are totally on Vader's level.

But if you can make actual arguments as to how the protags compare to Vader, rather than just throwing out an arbitrary feat and expecting people to translate it to "Revan > Vader" by intuition or something, go ahead and try.



You're mentally retarded. That's canon Vader, and he seems to be able to take out AT-ATs just fine.



No, it means that you basing your entire argument on just dismissing TFU feats because you don't like them is lolworthy.



What's your standard then, aside from the hilariously circular one that we shouldn't accept feats that are too powerful?



Logic 101: not having other feats for these Jedi means that their abilities independent of their performance against Vader would be unknown, not weak. It makes more sense to use the known quantity (Vader) to measure the unknowns, not the other way around. Duh.



Your lack of understanding of the distinction between upper and lower limits aside, you still haven't provided a single cogent argument as to why I can't use TFU feats, aside from them being inconvenient to your Revan fanboyism.



Yes, TFU creators wanted their protag to be extremely powerful, so they made him incredibly powerful. The question of *why* he's really good doesn't change the fact that he is, roflamo.



Because the other 35 are against unknowns, and I understand basic statistics?



Of course you think that.

BTW, I've been told by other sources that you're a socially awkward, ugly loser who's afraid to talk to people in real life, so whatever you can frame me for on an internet board, in the real world, you still lose. Nothing you do can change that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Most of Revan's forces were concentrated within the temple he was in, last time I checked.

The main point of the cooperation was to overwhelm the temple's defenses, hence why a joint operation force against Revan was necessary. And the main point of a small team was to infiltrate them, glad we cleared that up.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked."

Yeah, that certainly sounds like Darth Vader holding back when the text directly notes he was giving his all. Right, lets selectively quote from the text.

What about the fact that Vader was fending off his blow disinterestedly? That his defenses were impenetrable? Or the fact at one point Vader had Marek moments away from a killing blow? Or the fact that when he got serious, he had Marek in an "indefensible position"? Or the fact that Vader is stated to not be trying to kill his apprentice and is instead stated to be "still testing him?" Irrelevant right?

And for the record, Vader doing everything in his power to stop Marek getting to Juno, doesn't mean he was doing everything in his power to defeat and indeed kill him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

Yes, TFU creators wanted their protag to be extremely powerful, so they made him incredibly powerful. The question of *why* he's really good doesn't change the fact that he is, roflamo.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/insider%20106%20starkiller%201_zpsgvihqnou.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/insider%20106%20starkiller%202_zpsmel6jbc9.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/insider%20106%20starkiller%203_zpsgxtgd26o.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/insider%20106%20starkiller%204_zpsihfotqcd.png

From Star Wars Insider #106. TFU is definitely incongruous with the films, but the feats aren't out of line with what they wanted the character to be. It's no more or less exaggerated than SWTOR.

That's just your opinion. TFU is stated to be exaggerated and was intentionally made to be over the top. Swtor isn't and wasn't. /story

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's just your opinion. TFU is stated to be exaggerated and was intentionally made to be over the top. Swtor isn't and wasn't. /story

http://reactionface.net/reactionface/images/original/1277.jpg

No one cares about your opinion, Neph.

TFU is over the top, but the question is why. The answer is evidently that the protag is incredibly powerful, which is an in-universe explanation that doesn't render it invalid, lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://reactionface.net/reactionface/images/original/1277.jpg

No one cares about your opinion, Neph.

That's my line. You have no argument for Swtor being exaggerated beyond "well I think it is." With TFU it is stated. It's not a mere opinion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's my line. You have no argument for Swtor being exaggerated beyond "well I think it is." With TFU it is stated. It's not a mere opinion.

It's not my tears you've been swallowing all these years. haermm

But yeah, SWTOR is also incongruous with what you see in the films, like TFU. Same situation tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not my tears you've been swallowing all these years. haermmhttp://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

stoned

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not my tears you've been swallowing all these years. haermm

But yeah, SWTOR is also incongruous with what you see in the films, like TFU. Same situation tbh.

I was talking about the sentence, not the image. The part about no one caring about your opinion. Because your argument is just a whole lot of opinions. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about the sentence, not the image. The part about no one caring about your opinion. Because your argument is just a whole lot of opinions. Nothing more.

DAMMMMNNNN

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because your argument is just a whole lot of opinions. Nothing more.
http://www.periodictable.com/Samples/026.32/s13.JPG

Fresh, what's your snapchat?

Don't have one. No point with my shitty Windows phone.

You're missing out, Breyon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about the sentence, not the image.

So you don't deny that you've swallowed more protein than a local gym? excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
The part about no one caring about your opinion. Because your argument is just a whole lot of opinions. Nothing more.

Given that your literal response to things you don't like of late has been "I refuse to acknowledge this," I'm not surprised that you lack the ability to recognize a good argument.

Even among your own flock, you're a black sheep.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're missing out, Breyon.
Eeeeeh

C'mon. A real nigga would never shy away from the limelight.

Yo, the last name in public thing shouldn't be happening.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yo, the last name in public thing shouldn't be happening.

Well, who would've known?

oh damn

Anybody who knows what a proper noun is?

I didn't.

I do now. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

No, who would have known that "real nigga" was your last name?

Aight look: Real nigga since day one, so **** you if you hate me. Been a working nigga since day two, and a rich nigga since day three.

I wish it was that easy. But a real nigga falls on his ass before he rides the high tide of success.

So much information known about Freshest in such little time. excellent

'Strap is black? mmm

There's a reason I Finna call him a real nigga.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There's a reason I Finna call him a real nigga.

Intriguing. Ultimately, it has no bearing on his impending emancipation from the SWTOR movement. excellent

Tempest what are you?

Wait what lmao

**** SWTOR

Divine excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Intriguing. Ultimately, it has no bearing on his impending emancipation from the SWTOR movement. excellent
Because I'm not the guy who's running it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Wait what lmao

**** SWTOR

gewd

I figured 'Strap was at least 3/5ths of the way towards enlightenment.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because I'm not the guy who's running it.

I don't think anyone, for a cotton-picking minute, believed that. But in TV Tropes terms, you're the Lancer.

SKILLZ has left SWTOR for Marvel. And while I can't deny that's the most intelligent thing to do, someone must keep the Brigade away from Neph and LeGenD, and that someone is me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think anyone, for a cotton-picking minute, believed that. But in TV Tropes terms, you're the Lancer. LMFAO

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
SKILLZ has left SWTOR for Marvel. And while I can't deny that's the most intelligent thing to do, someone must keep the Brigade away from Neph and LeGenD, and that someone is me.

Take them to the woodshed, if you must. But it will be difficult to truly redeem SWTOR.

Tempest and Carthage will you help make Bane-esque Vitiate memes?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Take them to the woodshed, if you must. But it will be difficult to truly redeem SWTOR.
The point isn't redemption; it's the death of all things.

Feats for Vader that match beating powerhouses like Nyriss?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The notion that Darth Vader could overwhelm the trio in question when he's never came close to exerting the same battlefield domination against any Jedi he's ever fought, let alone multiple ones that are significantly more powerful than the ones he regularly fights, is laughable.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914870-7873024960-38920.jpg

Not saying it's as impressive as Revan's own feat just wanted to point out that Vader has accomplished similar feats.

So whether or not he replies, I'm going to deal with Darth Ant's Revan arguments, because they sort of encapsulate a lot of the issues with TOR wank.

Essentially, Ant never disputes the fact that Vader and Starkiller's feats in The Force Unleashed I and II are massively beyond anything Revan's ever done. So instead, he tries to argue that these showings are incongruent with the rest of Vader's source material, and that we should toss them as outliers - and he goes on to provide some pretty bizarre arguments in support of this motion. Let's disassemble what he's actually saying:

(EDIT: the fact that the OP talks about "peak Vader" sort of puts enough of a nail in this coffin)

1. He doesn't understand the meaning of statistical uncertainty. Specifically, he argues that Vader has struggled against "featless" Jedi, so he must be weak because those Jedi are. Why are those Jedi weak? Because they have no feats, Ant says. Of course, a more astute observer might notice that someone not having feats signals a lack of knowledge over their abilities, not a knowledge of their weakness! So why, exactly, would we try to use the unknowns as the benchmarks for the more known quantity (Vader), rather than the reverse? We wouldn't, of course. These featless Jedi doing well against Vader is a mark in their favor, not the reverse!

Of course, in the absence of feats, we do typically assume that those characters are weaker than ones with good feats simply because of probabilities - we'd assume some value towards the average of their context and surrounding abilities, and this usually reduces to a lower value than their opponents, since most well documented combatants are significantly above average. But this sort of expected-value analysis does not override actually having a good benchmark (Vader + his feats) to use!

2. He doesn't make any effort to explain the disparities. When confronted with some sources that show X and others which apparently show Y, rather than try to create a unified model to explain both, as we do in other endeavors like the sciences, Ant just picks what happens to be more convenient for him. You could argue that he has the weight of numbers on his side, but you could just as easily point out that The Force Unleashed is more recent material that is actually more integral to the plot of the Saga. If the events that we read about didn't actually happen because Vader and Starkiller can't actually do that, how did the necessary consequences of those events, like the formation of the Rebellion, happen? No explanation.

There are, of course, several potential explanations. Vader grows more powerful throughout the Dark Times and the OT, and his psychology improves. This alone explains a lot of the alleged power disparities Ant refers to, and he subsequently responds by vaguely referencing near-RotJ times Vader underperforms...with no elaboration, of course.

3. He muddles suspension of disbelief. Darth Ant's final card, given the clear superiority of Vader's feats and comparable accolades, is to try to argue that The Force Unleashed's powers are over the top, and that the creators intended as much. Well, yes, TFU is over the top, but the question is why. There are two explanations:

a) That Starkiller is an incredibly powerful protagonist whose potential rivals Luke's.

b) That the events in the game/novelization aren't actually "canon", but rather distorted by the writers to appear over-the-top.

Option a) has the advantages of being backed by explicit statements from the creators, not requiring breaking the fourth wall, not requiring breaking the continuity of the mythos, not requiring authorial intervention, and overall making more sense, while option b)...well, it supports Revan's case, so naturally it's what Ant goes with.


Finally, in the rare attempt to actually engage with the feats war (given that no argument from accolades or powerscaling was put forward), Ant presents two contentions:

1. That Revan can tank an explosion that can "affect all life within one kilometer". Of course, Starkiller's blast is even more potent, being visible from space, and Vader is standing right next to it without being affected. But hey, that's just me...
2. That feats against inanimate objects don't show how "good with combat" people are. Never mind the fact that Starkiller performs many of these feats, like soloing hundreds of stormtroopers with a single push, in the middle of combat.


Let's talk about the latter for a moment. Ant seems to think that feats against inanimate objects don't matter that much, but he completely ignores the analysis of why they do. You see, when we're scaling characters against one another based on their opponents, you have the unknown variable of the strength of said opponents to mess things up. Sometimes you can scale these opponents against one another, but other times some of them are featless, just as Ant shoots himself in the foot with. So what advantage do inanimate feats provide? They provide a common reference point to compare abilities, and this is where Vader clearly outstrips Revan.

I myself have presented a case for why feats may be overrated unto themselves, but I don't feel like providing arguments for the other side just so that I can shoot them down or explain them.


Simply put, based on his actual demonstrations, Revan is not as powerful as Darth Vader is. If an argument can be put forward on Revan's behalf, and I'm sure it could be, nobody to my knowledge has done so in this thread.

I think a case can be made, but seeing you destroy Ant is much more enjoyable.

Whether TFU is canon is irrelevant: it's not, but neither is SWTOR.

I don't think the issue is about it's canon status. Its about it's accuracy in representing its characters abilities.

The OP also specifies "peak" Vader...

Who are these featless Jedi of which you speak of Elimist? The fact they are Jedi alone, is a feat given what it takes to be a Jedi, another being is that they survived Order 66 which exterminated the whole of the Jedi Order pretty much, so that is also a feat.

Might not be glamorous sure compared to actual characters, but the term 'featless' is thrown around too loosely in the SWU.

^ fair. Those feats still only place lower limits on these Jedi's abilities, so they still lend to my point, that you can't scale Vader's upper limits off of them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Who are these featless Jedi of which you speak of Elimist? The fact they are Jedi alone, is a feat given what it takes to be a Jedi, another being is that they survived Order 66 which exterminated the whole of the Jedi Order pretty much, so that is also a feat.

Agricultural corps member survived Order 66. ***** please.

You mean where they were captured and served as Dark Force adepts?

No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, I've been told by other sources that you're a socially awkward, ugly loser who's afraid to talk to people in real life, so whatever you can frame me for on an internet board, in the real world, you still lose. Nothing you do can change that. he cute tbh

Pics

Watch out, Joker. Beni's a homewrecker. uhuh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pics I can't, but take my word for it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
SKILLZ has left SWTOR for Marvel. And while I can't deny that's the most intelligent thing to do, someone must keep the Brigade away from Neph and LeGenD, and that someone is me.
And what exactly do you do for the cause of SWTOR? Nothing.

Your are traitor among the ranks of SWTOR brigade and you will be cast out soon. We don't need you.

Freshest has been a sleeper agent for the PT.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Freshest has been a sleeper agent for the PT.
Yes, and his time has come. He can no longer pretend to be a representative of SWTOR brigade.

He kinda admits that he thinks SWTOR is cancer and wants to Natemha KMC through wanking it with the aid of... maybe not 8k but a couple more people who wank SWTOR?

Originally posted by Aurbere
Watch out, Joker. Beni's a homewrecker. uhuh https://media.giphy.com/media/pmhmcqHP4yIbm/giphy.gifOriginally posted by |King Joker|
I can't, but take my word for it. https://media.giphy.com/media/2VqNPqENVU8G4/giphy.gif

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, and his time has come. He can no longer pretend to be a representative of SWTOR brigade.
I AM the brigade, cretin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/pmhmcqHP4yIbm/giphy.gif https://media.giphy.com/media/2VqNPqENVU8G4/giphy.gif LMFAO @ both those gifs

Originally posted by Syndicate
http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/3914870-7873024960-38920.jpg

Not saying it's as impressive as Revan's own feat just wanted to point out that Vader has accomplished similar feats.
Pushing three Jedi off a cliff is a similar feat?

Anyway, will respond to Beni and Sky now.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So whether or not he replies, I'm going to deal with Darth Ant's Revan arguments, because they sort of encapsulate a lot of the issues with TOR wank.
I'll have some fun with this.


I directly disputed the claim that Darth Vader and Starkiller's feats don't match up to pushing Vitiate or dominating the coalition strike forces.

I'd also like to reference Revan telepathically dominating an entire fleet of warships, with the aid of the nexus of Malachor V, far before his prime.



Except the Jedi that Darth Vader fought are clearly less powerful than the leader of the Dark Council (i.e. Darth Marr); clearly less powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi Order (i.e. Satele Shan); clearly less powerful than someone who is "far more powerful than any Jedi has ever imagined" during one of his weakest incarnations (i.e. Revan). It's circular logic. You are basically stating that since Darth Vader is strong, these Jedi must also be strong. That's fine. But then you are also stating that since these Jedi are strong, Darth Vader is strong (you specifically said that "killing seven Jedi" was among his best feats). This is the flaw of your argument. So, if all these Jedi are so powerful that they are capable of challenging Darth Vader to such an extent, it defies logic that then Revan, the most powerful Jedi from the creation of the Jedi Order in 25,783 BBY to his first death on the Foundry in 3642 BBY, would not be powerful enough to perform far better than these Jedi. That's just obvious. You made note yourself that the fact Dooku was the greatest Jedi produced for simply centuries is a key qualifier for being among the greatest of the greats. Stop trying to make excuses for Darth Vader's failures here.



Except that's what you're doing. When one is strictly using the same source (i.e. The Force Unleashed series), and then the other all others including movies and television shows, it's obvious which one holds more weight and should be looked upon as the more reliable. I don't care if you think otherwise - you're wrong.


That doesn't contradict my point. It merely presents a different approach alongside it.


What? First off, the second video game has virtually no relevance to the formation of the Rebellion, and ends on a note that doesn't move in smoothly with other events.

And in the original game, Galen Marek can still sacrifice his life to confront Palpatine and Darth Vaderwithout X, Y, and Z happening exactly the way they did. Don't be ridiculous.



The Dark Woman? The clone of Darth Maul? Both of these fights happened after his conflicts with Starkiller and place him back to his standing as a powerful, but not unparalleled, power.

However, I was, in particular, referring to the Canon comic series. The OP gave me the impression that this is composite Darth Vader - not strictly Legends or Canon.


No. Starkiller's over-the-top Force powers are not necessary for the key plot points of the game to occur. By simply recognizing they are exaggerated and then proceeding to dumb-them-down, as we should since they are explicitly stated to be "amped up," there is no breaking of the fourth wall, there is no breaking of the continuity, etc. And the creators saying this or that about what Starkiller might become in the far future is irrelevant. Darth Vader wasn't fighting someone as powerful as Luke Skywalker in his prime.

Read above.


"Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions."

I am led to believe that, based on the above quote, the fire we see from space is not just what Darth Vader had to deal with, but also a chain reaction in another area as well.

And he was affected by the explosion: "Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before."

Anyway, I'd like to further expand on my point. Revan as of Shadow of Revan's body is held together through his will, similarly to Darth Sion. To truly defeat him, one must then have to unleash an attack that is sufficient enough to overcome his will (or pacify it and thus allow them to embrace death, which is how both he and Darth Sion died, but Darth Vader isn't doing that here). That's how it works. So, Revan first survived a blast of Force energy that threatened to inflict damage upon all life in a one kilometer radius around him. And then note also unlike Darth Vader, the blast was solely contained toward Revan, so he was taking the full and complete blow of that power. Revan endured. The fight continues and soon the Machine Core becomes unstable. The game notes that Revan's "life force" then began being "stripped" away from him by a "violent maelstrom of twisted force essence." Revan endured. Come hours later, Revan then fights the strike team and, due to the intervention of Spirit Revan, the team defeats him and brings him to his knees. Despite the accumulative injuries of all that happened before, including the other battlefield injuries he would have obviously sustained in the two fights, Revan rose again, unfazed and ready to fight. Darth Vader will need to unleash telekinetic powers that overwhelms the mind that resisted the Dread Masters and Vitiate, two of the greatest Sith telepaths ever, for centuries, and was so focused that he resurrected himself from the dead through his own corpse, starting again body functions via power of mind.

Darth Vader has never shown to be able to flesh out that caliber of power.


I disagree. For example, a novice Sith apprentice during SWTOR, who is vastly inferior to Revan, was capable of destroying an entire city block on Dromund Kaas. This outstrips Darth Vader's feats. Are you going to argue she's his superior? And in terms of using the Force against actual opponents, Revan clearly outstrips Darth Vader, which I find more importance since it's more relevant and is certainly gaugeable since we know Darth Marr and Satele Shan are better than those Darth Vader have dominated, which are extremely few in number. Even if you think matter manipulation is impressive, surely you should recognize Revan's superiority in the other category at the very least.

Revan dominates Darth Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Pushing three Jedi off a cliff is a similar feat?

Anyway, will respond to Beni and Sky now.

Well, given both Revan and Vader's feat have them casually blasting force users, I guess you could say it is. The scale is probably on a smaller level but you said Vader had never done anything like overcome enemy force users ( or something along those lines ). :6

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well, given both Revan and Vader's feat have them casually blasting force users, I guess you could say it is. The scale is probably on a smaller level but you said Vader had never done anything like overcome enemy force users ( or something along those lines ). :6
It's not. Darth Vader pushing three unnamed Jedi doesn't compare to Revan doing the same to Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, and the Hero of Tython, and that feat isn't even his best display of domination over the team.

BTW Ellimist, another response by me will probably take a while since I have other debates on ComicVine I haven't responded back to in over a week now.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I AM the brigade, cretin.
I represent SWTOR Brigade, not you. I get to decide who are its members, not you.

You do nothing for SWTOR cause. Consider yourself dismissed from it.

Um, as I had said, the OP specifies peak Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not. Darth Vader pushing three unnamed Jedi doesn't compare to Revan doing the same to Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, and the Hero of Tython, and that feat isn't even his best display of domination over the team.

I didn't say it was. You said he's never overcome force users like Revan has. That was blatantly false as that scan proves.

Man, wish I could be dismissed too.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I didn't say it was. You said he's never overcome force users like Revan has. That was blatantly false as that scan proves.
No. Revan ragdolled them around and made them unable to call upon the Force.

He's never overcome Force users like Revan has

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Man, wish I could be dismissed too.

You're dismissed, you dirty b*tch. Get out of my sight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Revan ragdolled them around and made them unable to call upon the Force.

He's never overcome Force users like Revan has

The fight was over in the next scan, it can be assumed that the blast killed them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're dismissed, you dirty b*tch. Get out of my sight.

https://media.giphy.com/media/AeWoyE3ZT90YM/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Syndicate
The fight was over in the next scan, it can be assumed that the blast killed them.
Why the hell would we assume that? Also, what's the name of the comic?

Because there wouldn't be a point to showing a single scan of Vader battling force users and then cutting away. It's not given in the RT.

Then how can you confirm that the fight was over in the next scan?