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So this topic has been discussed many times before, but I would like to give my own, somewhat detailed analysis. I'm somewhat rushing this, so apologies if things are a little messy/there are typos/etc. Let me know what you agree/disagree with.

I'm using Legends canon, and a few epistomological standards:

Narrator accolades are taken for their word unless if they are


Sufficiently contradicted by other source material.
Utterly inane or nonsensical.
So completely contradicted by demonstrated feats and events that it would be pretty much impossible to reconcile them.


Out of universe authorial comments are taken under consideration. They are more trusted to determine the specifics of their own characters and storylines, but not necessarily how they relate to other individuals. We can also take with a grain of salt spurious email responses that seem to imply a lack of actual thought given to a topic.

Feats are used, but taken under consideration given their general inconsistency. Generally speaking, I'll try to compare characters' relatively higher tier showings, .ie I won't take into consideration Yoda's struggling to lift a pillar. That seems to be a reasonable safeguard against the power creep in more recent material.

If two sources contradict one another, there are a few ways to reconcile them:

Canon rating under Leland Chee's system prior to the Disney reboot.
Recency of the material.
Internal consistency and sensibility.
The source material's prior track record.
How many sources corroborate one another.


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OK, so here's my list. I'm considering overall mastery of the Force under characters' individual power.

Excluded: the Mortis Anchorites, Mortis Anakin, characters in Oneness, the Bedlam Spirits, Zonoma Sekot, Taalon, Nyax, UnuThul, and other one-off deus ex machinas.

I've also excluded Darth Krayt from the list due to not having really read or explored the Legacy comics, Talzin whose off-Dathomir feats I'm pretty ignorant of, and some characters of whom we know essentially nothing, like Ragnos/Nadd/Sadow/Hord.

1. Luke Skywalker - three reasons why I put him above Palpatine. Firstly, it's basically the most thematically important power-ranking in the mythos that Anakin could have been the most powerful Force user ever, and that Luke has the ability to become what his father never reached. Lucas pretty much states outright that he has inherited his father's potential to become twice as powerful as Sidious - at the very least, even if you don't think that his potential is literally equivalent to the Chosen One's, it's still greater than Sidious's, given that Lucas was speaking in the context of surpassing Palpatine. I think that by FotJ, Luke's had enough time to, given his ridiculously good growth curve, have unlocked enough of that latent power to have passed the dark lord of the sith.


Secondly, he does manage to defeat the reborn Emperor in a lightsaber duel. Granted, it is a duel and not a battle of the Force, but I do imagine that Palpatine would've tried to do something to Luke in that category were he capable, but he can only gain the upper hand via his Force storms. It is true that Leia is vaguely "unlocking hidden resources" within Luke, although Skywalker doesn't even seem to notice her doing so until she points it out. But Leia isn't incredibly powerful - would her battle meditation unlock potential in Luke that 30 or so years of improving wouldn't? I find that highly unlikely. He's likely surpassed his amped-Dark Empire version long before FotJ.

Thirdly, Luke does surpass Palpatine in feats when you compare them side-by-side. So he never matches Palpatine's Force storms, but this would make for quite the unfair comparison because he doesn't really want to. His telekinesis showings are superior - Palpatine has never matched manipulating dovin basals or immobilizing Darth Caedus with a gesture. He's demonstrated a greater affinity with illusions, Forve valor, foresight (his foresight in LotF: Invincible is scarily prescient), etc. All of Palpatine's superior showings come in categories that Luke would consciously avoid. At the worst, I would have to see conclusive demonstrations of Palpatine's superiority in the feats department to consider overriding the other two, more authorial indications of Luke's supremacy.


2. Darth Sidious - Look, it's reasonable to take with a grain of salt random, scattered proclamations of X character being the most powerful or whatever. But I'm pretty sure there've been close to a dozen or more sources that have all said this about Palpatine, and I think that consistent compilation of accolades is too overwhelming to be dismissed on face. You may argue that these sources predate Valkorion's creation - refer to the Plagueis analysis. To put the nail in the coffin on other Sith being stronger, Lucas himself considers Palpatine to be the most powerful of all time - you may consider his ignorance on future EU creations, but I would make the stronger claim that Palpatine's supremacy is of thematic importance, and he's supposed to represent the ultimate culmination of the Sith order, the one who is finally powerful enough to wipe out the Jedi. Whether Lucas knew about every individual sith lord who came before him, this status is of pretty intrinsic importance to the saga.

Even if it weren't, Sidious's feats speak for themselves. He's the only character confirmed to be capable of ravaging planetary surfaces purely on his own raw power, has dominated Windu/Dooku tier combatants with ease, mind-wiped trillions of people, made himself a walking dark side nexus, one-shotted 50 stormtroopers with lightning, etc.

People try to point to Valkorion. I don't buy the "Valkorion isn't a sith" BS, given that Palpatine has quotes placing him supreme among all dark side Force users (the Son and Abeloth are freakish enough anomalies and isolated enough from galactic events that their exclusion from these quotes is reasonable), and that this technicality doesn't really affect his thematic depiction as the ultimate evil. But he's also simply more impressive - if we take away the nexuses, the rituals (of which Valkorion has access to things like thousands of gullible sith lords that Palpatine doesn't), and the vague hype, Palpatine beats Valkorion in almost every side-by-side comparison. He has better raw destructive feats (Ziost may have been a ritual and doesn't compare to "tearing surfaces" off of worlds and ripping apart Eclipse super star destroyers), telekinesis (scaling from his dominating Vader), Force valor and even telepathy (dominating Luke and Vader >>> failing to dominate the Outlander). Valkorion's only clear advantage is in his abilities regarding cheating death, but he's had the advantage of the Nathema ritual that Sidious couldn't really replicate given his circumstances.

He's also more powerful than Yoda by RotS per the novelization and various other sources, and only grows stronger.

3. Yoda - Yoda being called the greatest foe the darkness had ever known isn't clearly written in third person omniscient, but sourcebooks echo that he's believed by most, including Dooku, to be as such. It's possible that the Jedi Order's consensus is wrong, but I'd say less probable than not - combined with his performance against Sidious, I'd buy it. I put Yoda above Plagueis somewhat roughly - he's close enough to Sidious in power given their duel that I think beats the 10 years of progression Sidious would have from TPM to RotS. TPM Sidious is already called the most powerful of all time, IIRC, so he's likely above Plagueis by then, and again, RotS Yoda is likely > TPM Sidious. It's also pointed out in some sources that Yoda is past his prime in the PT. His OCW feats seal the deal for me.

4/5. Darth Plagueis - he's called the most powerful sith lord who had ever lived in the publisher's summary. Taken at face value, this would put him above any sith prior to Sidious. I don't take publisher summaries as gospel, but given the difficulties in adjudicating these questions, they're better than nothing. Plagueis and Sidious both believe it to be so, and the novel comes out after Vitiate's creation and even mentions him. That being said, I'm not 100% sure that he's above Valkorion - that really depends on how seriously you take his claim that he's not a Sith, despite the codex saying otherwise. I do think he's above Vitiate - Plagueis' accolade could only really be overriden by very solid evidence to the contrary, and a feats war proves inconclusive. The areas where Vitiate exceeds him are in ones where Plagueis wouldn't have the interest or resources to replicate (he couldn't have emulated Nathema given the low number of Sith, for instance), or simply doesn't get put in situations to show off. Plagueis has enough high profile feats and powerscaling off of Palpatine to at least make it so that a feats war isn't conclusively in Vitiate's favor, and with that doubt, we can defer to the publisher's statement.

4/5. Valkorion - Vitiate is already stated by multiple sources to be more powerful than any Sith who came before him. None of these sources are solidly third person omniscient, but they're authoritative enough for me to take seriously barring very solid evidence to the contrary. The extent to which he is stronger than everyone else in his era, his planetary level destructive abilities, monstrous TK, ability to one-shot fairly powerful characters, and nearly unparalleled knowledge of the dark side put him over the likes of Caedus with respect to feats. Caedus's performance against Luke is impressive but somewhat circumstantial; when he engages him in Force contests, which are the subject of this thread, he is almost routinely humiliated.

6. Darth Caedus - a publisher's summary puts him above Vader, and again, it's not clearly contradicted by anything. It explains how he's able to remotely compete with Grandmaster Skywalker. Some may point to Vader/Galen Marek's greater Force feats, but this is just an absence of feats on Caedus's part - he's never put in similar situations. I don't think publisher's statements need explicit corroboration, just a lack of clear contradictions, and we get none of the latter and some of the former (like his performance against Luke). He's stated to be the second most powerful individual in the galaxy, which would put him above Kyp - granted, he seems to hold a huge advantage over Kyp as a duelist, but I don't think it's the most reasonable interpretation of the oft-repeat "second best" accolade to say that Kyp is actually more powerful than him but just less skilled with a blade. And given Caedus's inherited potential, all of this seems reasonable given his years of training.


7. Kyp Durron - his implied potential and growth rate are enormous. He's replicated Luke's dovin basal feat, one of the best TK showings in the mythos, and thinks that he's stronger than Luke - I don't take this very seriously given how every other character seems to contradict him, but I do think that he has to at least be more powerful than the somewhat restrained Luke we had normally seen to that point, as I don't think Kyp is outright delusional. Kyp has also used a freighter as a TK ramming weapon to the effect of wiping out capital ships, and he does this fairly effortlessly. I'd say his feats and accolades put him above the rest of this list.

8. Exar Kun - so it's pretty much stated outright and confirmed by the author that living Exar > spirit Exar, and I think it's a stretch to disentangle the latter from the Yavin nexus. Spirit Exar and an amped, DS nexus Kyp together could defeat JA Luke. It's implied that Kyp < Exar, so we know that spirit Exar and a sub-spirit Exar could defeat a guy who's pretty certainly stronger than Vader - Luke in JA seems to regress briefly in power from DE, but we can be reasonable in how much he does. Granted, he seems to blindside Luke from behind and uses powers Luke hadn't seen before, but taking all of this into account, I don't see how someone not stronger than Dooku could've pulled this off, and flesh Exar is stronger to a sufficient extent that I'd be willing to put him above Vader, and possibly JA Luke. He's also explicitly stronger than any prior Sith, including Freedon Nadd, whom Vitiate was worried about.

9. Darth Tenebrous - this is basically a guess from power scaling from the Banite line.

10. Darth Vader - He's presumably gotten stronger from TFU to ANH, and then gets two explicit improvements to ESB and RotJ. By that point, he's likely above Galen Marek.

11. Galen Marek - Marek feats in TFU are simply absurd and honestly better than a lot of people above him, who get by mostly on powerscaling. I put him above Revan, Jadus, Windu and Tyranus as none of them have managed to replicate his ridiculous showings like one-shotting hundreds of stormtroopers, redirecting falling star destroyers, disintegrating cruisers (granted this was his clone, but the same potential and memories), etc. Revan, in particular, doesn't have enough feats to win that war, and his powerscaling, giving novel Vitiate a good fight and ragdolling strike teams, doesn't clearly put him above Marek, who is able to catch Sidious's lightning and advance against him.

12. Revan - From both his performance against novel Vitiate and his hype, he's almost certainly above Jadus, or anyone sans Vitiate in TOR.

13. Darth Jadus - primarily for holding together a dreadnaught, and given Vitiate's calling him the greatest sith his empire ever produced. The former is a better telekinesis feat than anything Windu or Tyranus has done, and the latter signals enough of his power for me to put him 13th.

14. Mace Windu - I'd give him the edge over Tyranus for his vaapad. Dark Rendevous suggests that they'd be even fighters, and I don't see how we can evaluate their relative dueling abilities - yet Windu IIRC improves his vaapad over the course of the Clone Wars, and this likely gives him the edge. His OCW showings are also insane.

15. Darth Tyranus - I put him above other potential characters from his enormous hype (best Jedi produced in a few centuries of the prime of the Jedi is a very strong signal) and his lifting of like 100 tons of orbalisks.

There's always the chance that I'm forgetting someone.

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In terms of the separation between them, I'd say there's a pretty sizable gap between Palpatine and Yoda and Revan and Jadus, a modest one between Luke and Palpatine, and a relatively small one for the rest.

An interesting list, however you forgot Darth Krayt, and Kyp Durron is way to high for an individual who has only one circumstantial showing above the majority below him. He really doesn't compare in any other way.

People also ignore that Kyp was only able to manipulate that freighter in space where there is no inertia, normal people are moving like tonnes with little difficulty under those conditions.

And when did he use it to destroy capital ships? It was consumed by a dovin basal.

And concerning Exar Kun, the idea that Kun > Spirit Kun > Dooku is easily the least compelling argument I've ever seen on that front.

Come on now, be reasonable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
An interesting list, but Kyp Durron is way to high for an individual who has only one circumstantial showing above the majority below him.


He has two - the dovin basal manipulation and the freighter feat, along with believing himself to be more powerful than NJO Luke and having Luke himself speculate that he could surpass everyone else. His growth curve is also incredibly prodigious. There's also this quote IIRC that says he could become worse than Vader if he turned to the dark side. I do think that all of these together put him above Vader - he may not have as many showings and accolades, but they're more impressive IMHO.



There is inertia in space (and everywhere, for that matter). It's still pretty impressive to accelerate a freighter sufficiently to use it as a battering ram that doesn't just get shot down.



I'm too lazy to look it up - I thought that it overloads the dovin basal and destroys a coralskipper or something, but I might be wrong.



Do you imagine two Dooku-level Force users (keeping in mind that Kyp is pretty heavily implied to be weaker than Kun at this point) outright rendering Luke's lightsaber useless and then overwhelming him with the Force?



Like claiming there's no inertia in space?

It's also implied that Murr is greater than Vong Krayt, and somewhat more fallibly greater than pre-prime Vader, and given Kun's "greatest" accolade he's > her or any previous sith.

EDIT: I'm not sure if there's a big gap between DE Sidious and a speculative prime! Yoda.

EDIT: shit, I forgot about Nihilus. Meetra claims that Revan's command of the Force surpasses that of anyone she's ever met, which implies that he's above Nihilus, but Nihilus does have his ridiculous Ravager TK feat. He does this on a dark side nexus though, so I don't see it as convincing enough evidence to override Meetra's word. I would put him above Jadus, but it's tough - he has very little non-nexus feats.

I'm also not sure how to factor his Force drain and ability to encase his spirit in armor into his ranking. That probably does push him over Jadus, and by a decent margin.

If I were to include oddball characters and give it my best shot guessing:

1/2. The Father
1/2. Mortakin
3/4. The Daughter
3/4. The Son
5. The Bedlam Spirits
6. Abeloth
7. Zonoma Sekot
8. Taalon
9. UnuThul
10. Luke Skywalker
11. Lord Nyax
12. Palpatine
13. Yoda
14/15. Plagueis
14/15. Valkorion
16. Caedus
17. Kyp Durron
18. Exar Kun
19. Darth Tenebrous
20. Darth Vader
21. Galen Marek
22. Marka Ragnos
23. Freedon Nadd
24. Revan
25. Darth Nihilus
26. Mace Windu
27. Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He has two - the dovin basal manipulation and the freighter feat, along with believing himself to be more powerful than NJO Luke and having Luke himself speculate that he could surpass everyone else. His growth curve is also incredibly prodigious. There's also this quote IIRC that says he could become worse than Vader if he turned to the dark side. I do think that all of these together put him above Vader - he may not have as many showings and accolades, but they're more impressive IMHO.In space the freighter feat is a Dooku-tier showing, certainly not beyond individuals shaking dreadnoughts, pulling down star destroyers, lifting AT-ATs etc; Kyp is pretty delusional and obviously wrong; "everyone else" isn't on this list; most people on this list have a prodigious growth curve; that was Luke speculating and he only says he could become "another Darth Vader", a very vague claim and only if he turned to the dark side.

The dovin basal feat is the only substantive feat here, and to that I'd say the size matters not argument applies.Yeah I meant there is no gravitational resistance. As I said in space an average person can manipulate weight vastly greater than what they can on Earth, same should apply to Force users.

Its impressive, but its not more impressive that what the majority of those beneath him have done.Nah it just gets sucked in.Hmm? I don't really see what your getting at. But what I imagine is that Kun being significantly above Dooku-tier hardly puts him above Vader - which appears to be your argument.

That said? Zannah could have probably ****ed him over with her tendrils, consider what that means. See above fuggot. Sure but that was before his powers "multiplied", and I'm not convinced Spirit Muur & Corporeal Muur are equivalent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In space the freighter feat is a Dooku-tier showing, certainly not beyond individuals shaking dreadnoughts, pulling down star destroyers, lifting AT-ATs etc. etc;

I think you're putting too much on the space-thing. Even without having to work against an Earth-like gravitational field, he'd still have to accelerate the freighter by a respectable margin for it to function as a ramming weapon. To function, here's the quote:


Once before, Kyp had seized a ship and dragged it out of the fierce heart of a gas giant. Now he reached out with the Force and took hold of the dead freighter.

It shot forward with astonishing ease, moving steadily through the vacuum of space toward the shielded coral-skipper.

Lan Rim's dark chuckle came through the comm. "Subtle as always, Kyp! Let's not let this one get away, Dozen!" he shouted.

The lieutenant spun off in a tight turn, his two surviving pilots following closely. They darted around the big coralskipper, cutting off its retreat, taking and returning fire from the other enemy skips. Their daring maneuvers soon exacted a price-lan's ship got caught in a Yuuzhan Vong crossfire. The double blast of plasma proved too much for his shields, and the ship dissolved in a bright splatter of plasma and superheated metal.

The pilots Lan had commanded doggedly held the course he'd plotted. The XJs continued to harry the big skip, forcing it to keep up its stuttering shields as the dead freighter closed in. At the last moment, the surviving X-wings shot away toward safety.

The freighter never got close. One moment it was there; the next it simply disappeared into a void. What happened next was not exactly what Kyp had had in mind.

He'd hoped for a physical impact, or, barring that, that the freighter might overwhelm the dovin basal's capacity, leaving the big coralskipper vulnerable to attack. It had never occurred to him that the skip's multiple singularities might merge into one and fold in on the Yuuzhan Vong ship like a glove turning inside out. But suddenly, the freighter was gone. So was the coralskipper.


How slow could he have been accelerating it? It must have been moving at a speed comparable to a starfighter for it to not just get shot down or laughed at, and it slams into the basal with enough velocity to shove singularities, lol. He's probably accelerating it faster than the 9.8 m/s^2 of Earth's surface gravitational field, given that otherwise it would only be moving at like 300 m/s after thirty seconds of constant force from Kyp, which would make it less energetic than large modern day ordinances (9 gigajoules or so of KE) if the freighter weighs around 100 tons, let alone anything that could make singularities collapse, and would be moving slow enough to be easily shot down or avoided (or even outright outpaced). This means that his feat is vastly more impressive than lifting a freighter on the Earth's surface would be, and frankly nobody has ever done something like that without a nexus (Nihilus).

More realistically, if the freighter's final speed is like 13 km/s after 30 seconds (still conservative given that this would make it about as energetic as Hiroshima given 100 tons -> mass term cancels out anyway, let alone something that could overwhelm singularities), Kyp is applying enough force to lift something like forty four freighters, and doing an exponential amount of work.

Pulling down, or rather directing already falling, star destroyers doesn't strike me as intuitively more impressive; if it's falling for like 20 seconds, you can nudge it by 1 m/s^2 and it'll already crash roughly 200 meters away.





Luke actually uses a device to measure his abilities. Kyp was considered as a candidate for the next sith lord by Lumiya; he was the only non-Skywalker mentioned. And as I explained, it's more reasonable to suggest that he and Skywalker has some basis to make their claims rather than both of them being literally delusional; Kyp is likely more powerful than what he sees restrained Skywalker doing. That's fairly reasonable given that he actually pulls off the dovin basal feat with less effort than Luke (who is granted seemingly out of practice in the early Vong war given his exhaustion at fighting like three Vong warriors vs. later soloing thousands).



I don't mean to be snarky, but you've got your basic physics wrong. "In space", the extent to which you can accelerate objects is still inversely proportional to its mass; Newton's laws still apply. That Kyp isn't moving the void against an external 9.8 m/s^2 field (although he is against the dovin basal's resistance) changes the math somewhat but hardly diminishes the feat.



Specifically, it shoves the singularities together. That implies that the freighter is moving pretty ridiculously fast, given that these singularities have to mass at least multiple super star destroyers.



Spirit Kun is outright stated to be pretty drastically below his mortal incarnation.



No, it's made pretty clear that Luke was overwhelmed by a combination of the esoteric Force abilities, spirit Kun's raw power, and Kyp's own efforts. But I would factor having esoteric Force abilities into one's mastery of the Force anyway.



Seriously though, you do realize that you can calculate how much force you need to push things in the absence of a significant gravitational field, right? If you're accelerating it by more than 9.8 m/s^2, it's more impressive than lifting it from Earth's surface, especially if you look at the work done.



Huh?



By precedent corporeal Murr should be stronger.

One of the worst rankings that I have come across yet.

Good list. But I would put Valkorion above Yoda and below Sidious and Luke. Will you add even other characters in the future?

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Good list. But I would put Valkorion above Yoda and below Sidious and Luke. Will you add even other characters in the future?
It is not a good list when Valkorion is ranked below Darth Plagueis & Yoda and Revan is ranked below Darth Vader & Galen Marek. And I don't get the reason for Luke Skywalker being ranked # 1.

Exar Kun above Darth Vader is the only good aspect of this list.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not a good list when Valkorion is ranked below Darth Plagueis & Yoda

He isn't ranked below Plagueis, lol. And when Valkorion can match Yoda's OCW feats on his own power, let me know.



When Revan can TK star destroyers and disintegrate frigates on his own power, let me know.



Predictably, but that hardly negates its validity, does it?

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Good list.

Thanks.



Possibly. I still don't see Valkorion doing much on his own, personal power to put him above Yoda.



Sure, although I can't edit the OP.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He isn't ranked below Plagueis, lol. And when Valkorion can match Yoda's OCW feats on his own power, let me know.
You put Darth Plagueis above.

What do you mean by Valkorion matching Yoda's OCW feats with his own power? Valkorion have vastly superior showings then Yoda in many areas/spectrum of abilities.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
When Revan can TK star destroyers and disintegrate frigates on his own power, let me know.
These are pointless dick measuring comparisons.

Tell me! Did those feats translate to something meaningful against Darth Vader and/or Palpatine in a confrontation?

Darth Vader doesn't have equal showings either but he was able to affect Galen Marek with his powers and Palpatine could do more.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Predictably, but that hardly negates its validity, does it?
Luke Skywalker is the most over-hyped character of the mythos. Literature promotes him as the most powerful Jedi of his era. Only some fans perceive him to be # 1.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You put Darth Plagueis above.

They were both listed as 4/5. Unless if you were literally referring to Plagueis's being physically placed above him on your computer screen, you're wrong.



Which ones, Legend? I just asked you to produce these sources, not to assert that they exist. Valkorion can perform rituals and draw on nexuses and other people's energies to do things for him; he has never ragdolled control ships and levitated portions of mountains on his own power. But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!



A comparison of feats is a "pointless dick measuring" comparison, of course, unless if Legend is the one doing it. But then what do you want to use? Accolades? We both know how much you hate those, given that they put Sidious above Vitiate. So what do you want to use, exactly, if it isn't feats, and it isn't accolades?



No, because they're both extremely powerful Force users with comparable feats.

Is this really your analysis? That Galen having better feats than Revan doesn't matter, and that we should instead use...what, exactly?



Vader's equal showing is affecting Galen Marek, and Palpatine goes without saying. Revan has no such showing, ergo he is inferior.

Do you realize how pointless and nihilistic your rebuttal is? You're literally saying "Galen has better feats and showings than Revan, but that doesn't matter! Revan is better because I say so!"



Your completely ignoring my arguments to the contrary because you couldn't understand them (lol) aside, Luke Skywalker's inheritance of Anakin's potential is a huge f*cking plot point of the entire saga, roflamo. As Lucas himself puts it, Luke could have become what Anakin never did, someone more powerful than Palpatine. That's a far more meaningful accolade than any of the BS that you can pull about your own favorite character.

If you can tell me how manipulating singularities, defeating thousands of Vong, cloaking capital ships, rendering oneself literally immovable, TK'ing a guy with the Force potential of an entire colony of billions, and pinning a guy more powerful than Darth Vader to his chair without gesturing pales in comparison to your favorite farmer-torturer, you're going to have to provide actual feats and then comparative analysis rather than your continued vague objections about how awesome Valkorion is.

Leg was just roasted tbh

I would put Valk in Yoda's place. Yoda's powerful, but I see Valk as slightly more powerful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Leg was just roasted tbh

Spell his name right. You disgust me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Leg was just roasted tbh
You stated the same in another thread until I got the upperhand in that debate. This debate is far from over.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think you're putting too much on the space-thing. Even without having to work against an Earth-like gravitational field, he'd still have to accelerate the freighter by a respectable margin for it to function as a ramming weapon.I see your point, but gravity is still a factor here. If this feat had taken place with gravity the freighter's weight would have increased exponentially, meaning Kyp would have had to expend energy just to grip and lift it, whereas in this case it being weightless, he could put all his power into accelerating the object.Really? You seriously think it was accelerating at starfighter speeds?

I'm seeing no indication of that in the text. If that were the case how were the fighters able to reach the coralskipper, cut off its escape and harry for some time before the freighter collided?

If it were travelling that fast, surely a collision would have been far more immediate.

I also feel equating dovin basals to actually singularities to be a little absurd, its space magic, and as if a coralskipper (which is just the Vong equivalent of a starfighter, though it was larger than average) would have enough power to generate anything close to an actual black hole.He altered the direction of an object infinitely greater in mass, and it was falling for much more than 20 seconds. I never said Luke was delusional, merely that his claim is vague and he only equates Kyp with Vader, he doesn't put him above him. Kyp is on the other hand, yes, is being pretty delusional, as if he were anywhere near Luke Skywalker at that point.

And I find power scaling the feat with Luke to be extremely problematic, as it would leave Kyp far greater than Darth Caedus, discrepancies like that being par for course in that series.Huh? Where does it shove the singularities together?
No, at that particular point, he is stated to be "very powerful". Not that Dooku isn't 'drastically' beneath Darth Vader, he is, Vader was already much more powerful than him as of RotS.Right, and Bane's helplessness against Zannah's sorcery gives you an idea of just how potent that esoteric advantage would have been, sorcery is intrinsically very difficult to defend against.After he was reborn, Krayt experienced a significant growth in power.Perhaps? But unlike other spirits Muur had his talisman to sustain his essence, and Celeste Morne to feed his power. It's not unreasonable to assume he got stronger over four millennia.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I see your point, but gravity is still a factor here. If this feat had taken place with gravity the freighter's weight would have increased exponentially, meaning Kyp would have had to expend energy just to grip and lift it, whereas in this case it being weightless, he could put all his power into accelerating the object.

I know. What I'm saying is that it's only less impressive than lifting on Earth's surface if he's accelerating it at less than 9.8 m/s^2, and he clearly isn't, or else the freighter would make a pretty useless, slow weapon.



We don't know how far away the freighter starts, how fast the coralskipper is moving, or any of those variables. We just know that the freighter is moving fast enough to tag a starfighter and not get shot down, despite having already been mission-killed and ergo being otherwise easy prey. The starfighters "cutting off" the coralskipper's escape doesn't mean that it's literally sitting there in space.



I've had this discussion about physics and Star Wars with Neph in another thread, and I don't really want to repeat it here, so I'll just drop this point, except to point out that it powerscales him with Luke.



LOL, the fact that it was falling for longer makes the feat easier.



Nah, Luke's quote wasn't about Vader, it's about Kyp potentially becoming the greatest Jedi.



This logic seems conveniently circular, and ignores the point that Kyp actually does the feat with greater ease than Luke.



How does it put him far above Caedus? Caedus's showings are against a more powerful Luke, and early NJO Luke =/= end of NJO Luke.



The end of the quote.



No, AP literally emailed the author and got confirmation that flesh Exar is stronger.

Yeah, it's a value judgment to compare spirit Exar to flesh Exar and how that gap translates to putting him above Vader. Seeing as how I think even two Vaders should be hard pressed against post-DE Luke, I think flesh Exar > Vader is more likely than not, since it's stated that Exar can only access "some" of his powers through Kyp, .ie flesh Exar potentially > spirit Exar + Kyp > JA Luke.



Yes, but the text mentions that esoteric sorcery as a component of Luke's defeat, and again, I don't see why I shouldn't factor said sorcery into the rankings.



Correct, hence why I don't put Murr above Vader, although Murr seems to think himself above pre-prime Vader.



You could say the same thing about Exar Kun and Yavin IV's nexus, and yet he's still weaker than he was living.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You stated the same in another thread until I got the upperhand in that debate. This debate is far from over.

lol

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You stated the same in another thread until I got the upperhand in that debate. This debate is far from over.

Nah. The only one who takes you seriously around here is Neph. While I don't impugn your character, you're honestly one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.

One small note, Luke is stated to be getting better constantly, after DE Luke becomes a lot more conservative with his powers, 'cause Dark Side n shit, that is kinda Luke's developmrnt in Specters of the Past, getting over his fear.

That conservative mindset doesn't bare any relevance in Luke's loss to Kun however, given it is stated that Luke tried absolutely every defensive measure he knew at full strength and everything he did was useless.

Originally posted by AncientPower
One small note, Luke is stated to be getting better constantly, after DE Luke becomes a lot more conservative with his powers, 'cause Dark Side n shit, that is kinda Luke's developmrnt in Specters of the Past, getting over his fear.

That conservative mindset doesn't bare any relevance in Luke's loss to Kun however, given it is stated that Luke tried absolutely every defensive measure he knew at full strength and everything he did was useless.

Fair enough. I do think it's a little difficult to determine Exar Kun's power from this; he does blindside Luke from behind/around him, Luke can't really hit Exar back, Luke has never seen tendrils before, he's fighting Kun on three sides and then Kyp on the other, Kyp is being powered by Kun and amped by Yavin's nexus, etc.

Well I mean the manner of victory isn't really the point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. The only one who takes you seriously around here is Neph. While I don't impugn your character, you're honestly one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.
That is utterly subjective and nonsensical claim to make. You are not much of a debater either - just talk big here and there.

They took me seriously here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624980&pagenumber=5

...And failed to prove Savage Opress > Darth Malak. Power-scaling did the trick.

Why I even bother responding to your statements. You are not going to debate, just take jabs. Not worth it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are not much of a debater either

Tempest can be a narcissistic *sshole, moreso before than now, but he's legitimately one of the best SW vs. debaters ever. He just doesn't really care enough to debate with you.

Granted, he seems to think that Palpatine has some sort of magical defense-hack against a few hundred Jedi in stealth X technology that doesn't even exist in his time blowing up his palace with nukes just 'cause he's Palpatine, but that's just me.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tempest can be a narcissistic *sshole, moreso before than now, but he's legitimately one of the best SW vs. debaters ever. He just doesn't really care enough to debate with you.
He used to be a great debater. Not anymore.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They were both listed as 4/5. Unless if you were literally referring to Plagueis's being physically placed above him on your computer screen, you're wrong.
4/5 implies that you do not dismiss the possibility of Darth Plagueis being above Valkorion. And that your default assumption is Darth Plagueis > Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which ones, Legend? I just asked you to produce these sources, not to assert that they exist.
I don't feel the need to present an essay about Valkorion's powers when I have written blogs for the said purpose. You can always go through them. But I will give you hints.

Valkorion have superior showings then those of Yoda in the domains of Telepathy, Force Concealment, Alter Environment and Defensive Applications. Valkorion is also a match for Yoda in the domain of Telekinesis via power-scaling. Furthermore, Valkorion have superior showings then those of Palpatine in the domains of Force Lightning, Sith Sorcery and Force Drain (another method to determine his superiority over Yoda). Valkorion also have superior combat showings then Yoda.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorion can perform rituals and draw on nexuses and other people's energies to do things for him; he has never ragdolled control ships and levitated portions of mountains on his own power. But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
So performing rituals is a sign of weakness now? Rituals are methods/experiments intended to develop new powers, hone existing talents and/or acquire new abilities.

Vitiate didn't drew on other people's energies to do things for him; he siphoned their energy to become more powerful with passage of time. This is not a negative for Vitiate in any sense. His showings are representative of his raw power, not that of others.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
he has never ragdolled control ships and levitated portions of mountains on his own power. But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
Tulak Hord affected a Starship (equivalent in size to Endar Spire) with his telekinetic powers.

Darth Nihilus affected a Starship (Ravager) with his telekinetic powers.

Darth Jadus affected a Starship (Harrower-class) with his telekinetic powers as well.

By virtue of power-scaling, Vitiate can affect those vessels and then some.

And when did Yoda ever levitate portions of mountains? Provide evidence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
It is infinitely greater then anything Yoda have done in a combat situation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A comparison of feats is a "pointless dick measuring" comparison, of course, unless if Legend is the one doing it. But then what do you want to use? Accolades? We both know how much you hate those, given that they put Sidious above Vitiate. So what do you want to use, exactly, if it isn't feats, and it isn't accolades?
This is your thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t625148.html

You perceive feats-wars as a meaningless exercise. Yet, you make statements such as:

And when Valkorion can match Yoda's OCW feats on his own power, let me know.

When Revan can TK star destroyers and disintegrate frigates on his own power, let me know.

Double-standards much?

I use everything at my disposal to make a case for a character such as accolades, feats, assessment of capabilities of character's opponents and power-scaling. I also apply common sense to plug some loopholes. This approach enables me to draw accurate inferences. I used to argue that Revan was a powerful Force-user 'before' the novel came out and SWTOR related events occurred; a time when some fans used to assert in debates that Revan may have used guns and grenades to defeat Darth Malak on Star Forge.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, because they're both extremely powerful Force users with comparable feats.
Did Darth Vader ever affect an Imperial Star Destroyer with his telekinetic powers? Did Palpatine?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is this really your analysis? That Galen having better feats than Revan doesn't matter, and that we should instead use...what, exactly?
1. Revan one-shotted Darth Nyriss, a Sith Lord powerful enough to defeat Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge simultaneously. Galen Marek have nothing on this.

2. Revan was also able to use both the Light and Dark Sides simultaneously to attain oneness-like state and unleash his strongest powers in this manner. He was able to affect even Vitiate in this manner. Galen Marek have nothing on this.

3. Revan sent an entire Strike Team packing across the arena with a wave of energy. Galen Marek have nothing on this.

4. Revan is also stated to have greater command of the Force then everybody whom Meetra Surik had interacted with during her life and the list includes Darth Traya, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus. Galen Marek does not outgun them in showings.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader's equal showing is affecting Galen Marek, and Palpatine goes without saying. Revan has no such showing, ergo he is inferior.

Do you realize how pointless and nihilistic your rebuttal is? You're literally saying "Galen has better feats and showings than Revan, but that doesn't matter! Revan is better because I say so!"
Right...

See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your completely ignoring my arguments to the contrary because you couldn't understand them (lol) aside, Luke Skywalker's inheritance of Anakin's potential is a huge f*cking plot point of the entire saga, roflamo. As Lucas himself puts it, Luke could have become what Anakin never did, someone more powerful than Palpatine. That's a far more meaningful accolade than any of the BS that you can pull about your own favorite character.
I am capable of understanding your arguments.

Luke Skywalker did not inherit potential equivalent to that of Anakin Skywalker. Otherwise, he would have become as powerful as the Father by FOTJ.

It is implied that Luke Skywalker had the potential to surpass Palpatine but you forgot one thing: George Lucas talks only about canon incarnations of his characters. He doesn't considers EU based incarnations. So Luke Skywalker could become more powerful then Palpatine (ROTJ) at maximum. Big deal.

Valkorion >> Palpatine (ROTJ)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you can tell me how manipulating singularities,
A feat that a Darth Vader level Force-user could perform as well; Kyp Durron. It is useless to cite.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
defeating thousands of Vong,
Throughout the course of war

Originally posted by The Ellimist
cloaking capital ships,
Something worth boasting about, finally.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
rendering oneself literally immovable,
Hyperbole

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TK'ing a guy with the Force potential of an entire colony of billions,
Where it is stated that UnuThul had the Force-potential of an entire colony of billions of Killiks?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
and pinning a guy more powerful than Darth Vader to his chair
Big deal?

Valkorion one-shotted Arcann.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
without gesturing pales in comparison to your favorite farmer-torturer, you're going to have to provide actual feats and then comparative analysis rather than your continued vague objections about how awesome Valkorion is.
Indeed

01. One-shotting an entire Dark Council
02. Altering the environment of planet Dromund Kaas
03. Successfully completing a ritual that killed 8000 Sith Lords and everybody else on the planet
04. Creating a nexus of Dark Side energy
05. Defeating the duo of battle-hardened Revan and Malak without even a gesture
06. Overwhelming a Jedi Strike Team comprising of some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order
07. Telepathically influencing countless individuals on planet Ziost (including many Jedi Masters, Sith and battle-hardened soldiers)
08. Repelling Lightsaber-strikes with bear hands
09. Eliminating scores of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers with a wave of Dark Side energy by manipulating time-and-space continuum
10. Downing scores of Starships with a Force Lightning Storm
11. One-shotting powerful Force-users such as Arcann and Darth Marr
12. Creating Voice and Children and concealing the presence of all Children from the Jedi Order for decades while attending to other matters through Voice; one of the greatest examples of multi-tasking
13. Creating beings of pure Dark Side energy through sheer force of will; beings that were nearly impossible to kill
14. Killing a world with an expression of Force Drain (a showing that requires nearly an entire Jedi Order to pull off)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I know. What I'm saying is that it's only less impressive than lifting on Earth's surface if he's accelerating it at less than 9.8 m/s^2, and he clearly isn't, or else the freighter would make a pretty useless, slow weapon.Why would it be useless? Even if travelling at a "slow" speed it still weighs in excess of a hundred tonnes, that's going to do some damage if it collides head on with a starfighter.

Regardless, I wasn't given the impression that Kyp was attempting to destroy the target, just overwhelm its dovin basals with a mass beyond its capacity to absorb.It got close enough for Kyp's fighters to give immediate support when intact, and close enough for Kyp to reach out grip it. Nothing suggests it was particularly far away.OK, we are still dealing with an object weighing like hundreds of thousands of tonnes.But unless he surpassed Luke or Jacen (which he didn't) that really doesn't justify placement above anyone here.
It's posited on Kyp's lack total lack Luke-tier showings besides, and the fact that the likes of a young Jaina are a match for him in combat. He just isn't on that level.Because 15 years later he TKed Caedus with unprecedented ease, and accounting for that gap in power and/or mentality only suggests at that stage he might have otherwise exerted himself.

So if Kyp is even remotely close to "early NJO Luke", he should still largely shit on Caedus.

And frankly, if you take stock in what Kyp is saying, why isn't he much higher? I not seeing many people on that list who come remotely close to Luke.It says the basals deliberately fold in on each other, to accommodate for the object's mass.Right, but that's not what you claimed, you claimed that Exar Kun was drastically less powerful in spirit form, whereas in that instance, he was actually "very powerful."

Noting that even if he was a pinch away from his true power, Anderson's statement would still hold true.

And cool, in your opinion. Frankly I think two Vader's would handily defeat post-DE Luke. If he were unarmed and they had sorcery, they'd probably obliterate him.

And I've already articulated my issues with that last line of reasoning elsewhere, I won't repeat myself, not really interested in getting into that debate.Indeed, and given it's potency I'd imagine that component was quite considerable. The fact that is highlighted as a component only suggesting it's of note.

And no it shouldn't, but sorcery remains intrinsically more potent that standard attacks, nor does Luke have any knowledge of how to defend against those kinds of powers. Don't ignore that.Cool, he's not above prime Krayt either.Not exactly, seeing as Yavin 4 declined in DS strength over those four millennia. The Muur Talisman was purpose built to contain and sustain his essence, and he had Morne besides.

A more accurate comparison would be Kun's steady return to power with Kyp in his clutches.

Regardless Kun did go from being trapped and utterly powerless, to having a level of freedom and being able to effect the environment in profound ways, so he did get stronger.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
4/5 implies that you do not dismiss the possibility of Darth Plagueis being above Valkorion.

Good. You should never dismiss possibilities.



That was not implied, even if it's true.



I have my doubts about this.



Not really, although it can honestly be assumed that he's comparable just by virtue of his power at this point.



Wait... So your argument is, "Vitiate is powerful because he can affect Revan, who is powerful because he can affect Vitiate?" Circular logic.



Well, he's bonded with the populations of 375 Killik nests; that's the source of his power. The number of Kiliks per nest is unconfirmed, but saying that there were "thousands" per nest is still probably too low by a large degree.

Given the nests were expanding beyond their territory due to overpopulation caused by Raynar's influence, "thousands" is a gross underestimation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
and his lifting of like 100 tons of orbalisks..
Quote?

BTW, Ellimist, I emailed Drew Karphshyn about publisher's summaries a while back and he said it was just written by some random in "marketing just trying to sell the book." I question its authenticity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. The only one who takes you seriously around here is Neph.
Nah, I like LeGenD.

I can calculate the orbalisk feat when I'm a little less lazy.

I don't see why Drew's opinion on publisher's summaries should apply to those of other authors. Regardless, it's not like the ones in question that I'm using, mainly that Caedus > Vader and Plagueis was the most powerful sith to his time in history, are that difficult to believe. Only the latter invokes significant controversy because it implies Plagueis > Vitiate (I'm pretty sure both Sidious and Plagueis expressed this belief in the novel).

So it's not a direct quote or based on one?

I assume the process for publishing books in Star Wars is generally the same.

Also, the back of another book also said Darth Bane is more powerful than any Sith who had come before, but we know that isn't true either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
4/5 implies that you do not dismiss the possibility of Darth Plagueis being above Valkorion.

Correct.



...no? I listed them both as 4/5, lol. Regardless, quibbling over your reading mishap is kinda pointless.



Nobody is going to read through your eloquent writings if they don't have to.



Who cares? You don't need to be as powerful as someone to resist their telepathy; Valkorion couldn't even dominate the Outlander and Arcann, let alone Yoda, lol.

If we're going beyond combative applications, Yoda resists the nexus-amped mind-hacking sorcery of Sidious + Dooku. That he doesn't try to dominate people's minds Valkorion style is silly to hold against him - of course he isn't going to want to do that. That's why I try to compare the two in areas where they both have an incentive and opportunity to show off their abilities.



Not using his own power rather than amped-sorcery, no. But your claims would be a little more persuasive if you actually provided some examples, lol.



How so?



Power-scaling from who? Yoda has TK'd Sidious, who is more powerful than anyone Valkorion has dealt with, and he's f*cked with droid command ships, which is a more impressive feat than anything anyone in TOR has done. You're going to have to elaborate a little bit.



Palpatine's lightning can literally light-up planetary surfaces.



What has he done without absorbing other peoples' energies or harnessing nexuses that exceeds Palpatine's capabilities?

The funny thing is that Palpatine can pull off feats like planetary destruction that other Sith like Vitiate need massive prep + nexues + rituals to imitate.

He and Plagueis also literally unbalance the Force itself - and they don't even need sorcery/rituals to do this! They literally just meditate really hard and succeed via sheer force of will.

Palpatine, unamped, with no rituals > Valkorion, amped, using rituals on nexuses. lol.



Why would Yoda want to use Force drain?



One-shotting the likes of Arcann and Marr doesn't really tell us much.



The point is that while Sidious can use sorcery too, he pulls off feats greater than Valkorion's just via his own will and raw power, which is obviously more impressive than feeding off of a nexus and a bunch of Force users to do so. Force storms, for example, are more destructive than anything Valkorion has ever done (Ziost doesn't "rip surfaces off " or destroying super star destroyers), and Sidious harnesses them purely from his power in the dark side.



So it's just a coincidence that all of his Nathema-esque feats coincide with absorbing people's energies, harnessing nexuses, and feeding off of sith spirits? Ok.

If you have any counterexamples rather than vague objections, go ahead.




He pulls a ship down under unknown circumstances, over an unknown period of time. It could've taken him an hour, and the Spire could've already been falling.



On a nexus.



True (at least according to his word, lol), which is why he's on this list. But he only holds together a part of the ship. Starkiller disintegrating a cruiser is more impressive, tbh.



Only the Jadus feat is genuinely impressive, and even then, it's only a portion of the ship held together under unknown circumstances.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7yuEmRoUVc @ 3:20 - I did misremember, he really only collapses part of a mountain, so it's not really as impressive as his other OCW feats + scaling from Starkiller.



You mean like matching Darth Sidous in personal combat? ROFL



I...don't? I literally say "feats can be useful", lol. I point out that most people don't actually abide by them.



Well, what do you want to use? "Hype in encyclopedic medium"? Because Palpatine and Yoda have that in the bag, and I seem to recall you knowing that (literally there's an official answer to this question that calls "Palpatine at his peak" the most powerful sith). Palpatine has also been labeled the most powerful dark side Force user ever - and while this may exclude the Son and Abeloth for their obscurity, it couldn't reasonably exclude a guy as important to galactic events as Valkorion.

So accolades go heavily against you and your whole pet era, given that the Prequel Jedi are considered the prime of the Order, and instead you try to argue via feats, until you lose that war as well. Then you just pout and complain.



Funny, you just called a comparison of feats a "meaningless dick measuring exercise", and you've dismissed accolades as contradicting what you think are superior TOR feats, and now you're here vaguely alluding to your ability to synthesize all of this information, despite having done nothing of the sort throughout this debate.



No, but they're both above Starkiller by virtue of confronting and beating him, respectively. Again, in your own words, we can use feats, powerscaling and accolades, and here I'm using the second option combined with the first. You, meanwhile, seem to want to use "whatever suits my fancy".



Beating Meetra isn't that impressive given that they're on a dark side nexus. Scourge at this point is utterly featless, beyond being considered the best in his academy class and having lots of potential. He has neither the feats nor the signals to put him anywhere near Qui Gon's level, let alone someone who could've challenged Marek.

Also, Revan's oneshottting Nyrris is highly circumstantial. He deflects her charged attack back at her, .ie, he lets her do the work for him. He's strong enough to redirect it, yes, but that disparity does not equate to being able to oneshot her under his own power, it just means that his tutanimus is superior to hers.

Galen, meanwhile, has defeated TFU Vader, who is clearly far superior to Nyriss by feats, accolades, powerscaling, hype, and pretty much everything.

As usual, you provide a lot of awkward adjectives and say a whole lot of nothing - he does not achieve a "oneness like state", he just unleashes a powerful blast on a preoccupied Vitiate. Good for him. Galen Marek can catch Sidious's lightning and advance against him. That >>



Why do you capitalize "Strike Team", as though the mere mention of the word is supposed to impress me?



Says who? You? I don't recall Traya or Sion disintegrating frigates, bringing down AT-ATs, one-shotting hundreds of stormtroopers at the same time, being stated by the creators of the f*cking series to rival Luke in Force potential, etc. The only potential contender, Nihilus, performs his most impressive feats on the dark side nexus of Malachor.




Lol, I was just going off of your claim that you didn't, and your subsequently not responding to them.



Says who? It's not necessarily the case that FP Anakin = Father - we know that the Son and Daughter became that way because they bathed in the Pool of Knowledge, .ie they needed an extra amp. And Luke does not necessarily ever unlock all of his potential given that Palpatine was still not at his peak as of RotJ, but given his growth curve from ESB to RotJ to DE, it's impossible to see him not surpassing Palpatine without leveling off before his peak for some reason.



Lol, even in-universe Palpatine thinks that Luke has the potential to destroy him (ESB, RotJ), and there's no evidence that Palpatine's natural ceiling somehow increases when he gets his clone body.

Luke can already defeat Palpatine in DE with some unlocked potential from Leia, and I doubt that Leia can unlock >30 years of improvement.



RotJ Palpatine can still unleash Force storms, he just can't control them (but Valkorion has never "controlled" his own ritual based planetary destruction in any fine tuned manner). GG



What makes you think Kyp is a Darth Vader level Force-user? But thanks for arguing that Vader can manipulate singularities, lol.



No, during The Unifying Force.



Which you naturally don't respond to.



No. The author goes to far too many lengths to detail the feat for it to be a throwaway hyperbole. It's like he knows that we'd assume that, so he does exactly what you'd expect him to do if he wanted to be literal, short of awkwardly using the word "literally".



Somebody else answered this; even if you take the description as hyperbolic, the action of resisting UnuThul's TK is one of the most impressive defensive applications of the Force in the entire mythos. It's hardly "overhyped" in comparison to ragdolling "Strike Teams", lol.



You think Arcann has done something to put him on Caedus's level?



Nope, still no comparative analysis. *sigh*



We've been over this before. He does this with foreknowledge and prep, which Drew himself says Vitiate takes advantage of, and mysteriously never replicates this against Arcann, Revan, Scourge, Meetra, the HoT, or any of the strike teams that he faces. Huh, it's almost like he only does this when he possesses a litany of positive circumstances!



Over the course of a thousand years? *yawn* Plagueis's mere arrival on a planet sets a historically long winter, lol.



So what? Even trainee Bane can ravage huge swaths of a planet with just a few hundred weakling brotherhood sith. Heck, a bunch of Jedi apprentices just needed a nexus to Force push 17 star destroyers out of a star system. That he can kill a planet with 8000 sith lords isn't that impressive when Palpatine can do this by himself



According to Luke, Palpatine is a dark side nexus.



Pre-KotoR Revan and Malak, on the precipice of the dark side already, while Vitiate has prep (which Drew states himself is important to his telepathy), on a dark side nexus

vs.

Mind-dominating Luke Skywalker

GG



None of them have feats or accolades comparable to pre-vaapad Windu + the B team, and Palpatine overwhelms them faster.



*yawn* On a dark side nexus. Palpatine himself does this to Byss.



*yawn* Kylo Ren and Satele can do this. Palpatine can tank Starkiller's significantly more energetic suicide blast.

Also, this seems to be more of him applying telekinesis to stop Arcann's swings than actually withstanding the heat of a lightsaber blade.



Ooohhh, he can kill knights of Zakuul!



If you're referring to his attacking Arcann, he just disables their internal systems. Palpatine can actually light up planets with generic Force lightning.



How does this put him on Palpatine's level?



He's good with those kinds of essence-splitting skills, but he does this with an essentially infinite amount of time and prep, so it's not as impressive as a lot of the sh*t that Palpatine pulls off in real time.



"nearly impossible to kill" lol.



Palpatine can rip the surface off of a planet and threaten to "consume all of space" with his sheer force of will. You aren't going to win a comparison of their destructive abilities

2/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What has he done without absorbing other peoples' energies or harnessing nexuses that exceeds Palpatine's capabilities?
One of the worst claims you have made so far.

1. Valkorion, long before his prime, orchestrated a ritual that only he managed to control and take advantage of; 8000 additional Sith participants perished. This ritual led to creation of largest nexus in the galaxy as a side-effect. Darth Revan managed to document its findings in his holocron and when Darth Bane found this holocron, he felt overwhelmed while digesting such information and mused that even a true Sith Master wouldn't attempt such a thing. Indeed, no Banite Sith ever attempted it.

2. Valkorion one-shotted a Dark Council with Sith Sorcery. And nothing implies that Valkorion harnessed the power of a nexus to perform the deed.

3. Vitiate's feat of corrupting the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas is also an example of Sith Sorcery. This corruption effort was so strong that its effects lasted centuries and/or permanent.

So whether we consider a ritual, combat situation or influencing external environment, Vitiate have set a benchmark with Sith Sorcery.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The funny thing is that Palpatine can pull off feats like planetary destruction that other Sith like Vitiate need massive prep + nexues + rituals to imitate.
Funny thing is that you are wrong. Give me one example of a Planet that Palpatine have destroyed. This is his greatest showing:

One of the Emperor's Force Storms destroyed the Alliance base on the moon of Da Soocha and the entire fleet above it. Every day I'm reminded how lucky we are that Palpatine is lost to Chaos forever.

From Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Vitiate have a legitimate demonstration of planetary destruction; Ziost. Read about it here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/

Vitiate reduced Ziost to a barren wasteland with his own power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He and Plagueis also literally unbalance the Force itself - and they don't even need sorcery/rituals to do this! They literally just meditate really hard and succeed via sheer force of will.
You don't have to be a genius to figure out what constitutes a ritual and what does not. That is an example of a ritual and the effort spanned several months.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side.

From Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

However, the aforementioned development is not unique since Force-users have greatest impact on the balance of the Force:

More than any others, it is the Force-sensitive beings of the galaxy who have the greatest influence upon the balance of the Force.

From Star Wars: Force and Destiny

- and this balance have shifted over time:

For this reason, some believe that the Jedi and Sith must share an ultimately common origin, and their creation in the distant past embodies the opposition between the light and dark sides. As their relative power has increased or diminished over the centuries, it has only reinforced another deeply held belief about the Force: that it has a balance, and that this balance can shift over time.

From Star Wars: Force and Destiny

More;

The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And (not surprisingly) Valkorion is implied to be among the sources disturbing the balance:

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion." (Revan)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Palpatine, unamped, with no rituals > Valkorion, amped, using rituals on nexuses. lol.
You have yet to prove this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why would Yoda want to use Force drain?
http://imagineeringnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/the-point.jpg

Repeat:

Furthermore, Valkorion have superior showings then those of Palpatine in the domains of Force Lightning, Sith Sorcery and Force Drain (another method to determine his superiority over Yoda).

You think that you have intellect. Then try to comprehend what I am asserting.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
One-shotting the likes of Arcann and Marr doesn't really tell us much.
Really? They are easily Count Dooku level (or superior) characters.

Now show me a comparable example of Yoda.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is that while Sidious can use sorcery too, he pulls off feats greater than Valkorion's just via his own will and raw power, which is obviously more impressive than feeding off of a nexus and a bunch of Force users to do so. Force storms, for example, are more destructive than anything Valkorion has ever done (Ziost doesn't "rip surfaces off " or destroying super star destroyers), and Sidious harnesses them purely from his power in the dark side.
Again, what are these superior showings of Palpatine that I have missed so far?

On what grounds you are assuming that Valkorion had to feed off of a nexus and a bunch of Force-users to perform actions? Do you even understand the story of Valkorion? I doubt it.

Comparing Force Storm and Force Drain is like comparing a banana with an apple. Force Storm and Force Drain are intended for entirely different purposes.

Force Storm can be utilized to transmit living beings and/or matter from one location to another (if the intent is productive) and also to destroy objects (if the intent is lethal). Most powerful expressions of Force Storm can break the space-time continuum and possibly ravage an entire planet. But no documented evidence of a Force Storm killing a world exists.

Force Drain is used to affect living beings and steal their life-force and/or energy. Most lethal expressions of Force Drain can destroy/consume living beings, devastate ecosystems (on planetary scale) and also ravage the external environment (on planetary-scale) such as harming atmospheric conditions, vaporizing oceans and causing violent tremors (that may damage/collapse structures) through sheer intensity. The harm done to the external environment is not intentional, rather a side-effect.

Cataclysm of Ziost is a demonstration of power of the Dark Side:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Death of a World."

- Power of Valkorion

3/3

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So it's just a coincidence that all of his Nathema-esque feats coincide with absorbing people's energies, harnessing nexuses, and feeding off of sith spirits? Ok.

If you have any counterexamples rather than vague objections, go ahead.
See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He pulls a ship down under unknown circumstances, over an unknown period of time. It could've taken him an hour, and the Spire could've already been falling.
Have Yoda pulled down/affected a Starship of equal size? No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
On a nexus.
No where it is stated that Darth Nihilus drew on the power of Malachor V to perform the deed.

Malachor V contained gravitational anomalies and Darth Nihilus had to work against them to lift the Ravager into space.

You accuse me of vague objectives? Ironic, isn't it?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
True (at least according to his word, lol), which is why he's on this list. But he only holds together a part of the ship. Starkiller disintegrating a cruiser is more impressive, tbh.
More then that.

Darth Jadus's rage shook his entire Starship at one point.

And Darth Jadus held the entire Starship together:

"All military channels are reporting in. The Dominator has been completely destroyed." (Watcher Two)

--

"Nothing could have survived that explosion. All sources confirm. Casualties are one hundred percent." (Watcher Two)

--

"The shvash gas incinerated only part of the ship. My power held together the remains." (Darth Jadus)

- Darth Jadus minimized the damage.

Starkiller never disintegrated an entire Cruiser. He blew apart only a segment of it (this too when the Starship's integrity had been completely comprised due to pressures of fall and it was disintegrating). It is not as impressive as you believe it to be.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Only the Jadus feat is genuinely impressive, and even then, it's only a portion of the ship held together under unknown circumstances.
See above

Originally posted by The Ellimist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7yuEmRoUVc @ 3:20 - I did misremember, he really only collapses part of a mountain, so it's not really as impressive as his other OCW feats + scaling from Starkiller.
You call that collapsing a mountain? Yoda triggered an avalanche by collapsing a small segment of the mountain.

Satele Shan, years before her prime, have comparatively more impressive showing then this one.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You mean like matching Darth Sidous in personal combat? ROFL
Show me an example of Yoda one-shotting a Force-user as powerful as Darth Marr and/or Arcann.

Don't post silly remarks. Palpatine defeated Yoda.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I...don't? I literally say "feats can be useful", lol. I point out that most people don't actually abide by them.
Most are into feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, what do you want to use? "Hype in encyclopedic medium"? Because Palpatine and Yoda have that in the bag, and I seem to recall you knowing that (literally there's an official answer to this question that calls "Palpatine at his peak" the most powerful sith).

So accolades go heavily against you and your whole pet era, given that the Prequel Jedi are considered the prime of the Order, and instead you try to argue via feats, until you lose that war as well. Then you just pout and complain.
I prefer to look at the bigger picture. Accolades and feats guide us in understanding the position of a character in comparison to galaxy at large. But we also need to be critical; we need to focus on things from real-world perspective at times.

Star Wars is a continuously expanding saga and books written on its topics become outdated in some regards after years. Retcons often occur and newer editions are released to cover latest events and make sense of them. A large number of sources represent in-universe perspective of things. Some scholars may assume that Yoda was the most powerful Jedi ever, some may assume that he is one of the most powerful ever.

This is a reasonable accolade for Yoda from Disney:

Yoda was a legendary Jedi Master and stronger than most in his connection with the Force. Small in size but wise and powerful, he trained Jedi for over 800 years, playing integral roles in the Clone Wars, the instruction of Luke Skywalker, and unlocking the path to immortality.

Stronger then most, but not everybody.

Check Yoda's respect thread in ComicVine! You will notice a varied perspective of his power in different sources. Some sources assert that he is the best and some assert that he is one of the best.

Valkorion cannot compete with those characters in the aspect of accolades who existed in the future timelines. Therefore, we have to look at the bigger picture. To address this paradox, we need to focus on feats and accomplishments of Valkorion and compare them with the same of characters in the future to draw an informed conclusion.

Based on feats and accomplishments, Valkorion >> Yoda (Good luck at proving Yoda's superiority in this manner).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Palpatine has also been labeled the most powerful dark side Force user ever - and while this may exclude the Son and Abeloth for their obscurity, it couldn't reasonably exclude a guy as important to galactic events as Valkorion.
Look at the double-standards. Thanks for proving me right.

LeGenD assuming "the best" and "one of the best" are mutually exclusive.

Oh forgot about this

Legend. You know c'baoth who was able to control the minds of 10,000 people at once failed to even manipulate the minds of either Luke or Mara right? Affecting force users with telepathy is a far more difficult task then affecting non force users and someone of Yoda's power is likely impossible to affect with it.

Just thought I'd address one of the points in your post I found a bit odd.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Legend. You know c'baoth who was able to control the minds of 10,000 people at once failed to even manipulate the minds of either Luke or Mara right? Affecting force users with telepathy is a far more difficult task then affecting non force users and someone of Yoda's power is likely impossible to affect with it.

Just thought I'd address one of the points in your post I found a bit odd.
This matter have been discussed/revisited at great length here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=625606&pagenumber=5

Neither Luke Skywalker and nor Jacen Solo turned out be impossible to dominate through Telepathy.

And none of the Telepaths measured up to Valkorion in showings. Lord Nyax was the closest.

You might be surprised to learn I actually read the enirety of that page.

Your argument is based around Vitiate being a superior telepath to Nyax and Unuthul because he has better showings then them but when taking into account their ability to affect Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo that's simply not the case. If we were measuring potency by scale then even c'baoth might rival them but given his lack of effectiveness against a much less powerful/knowledgable Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade that's simply not the case. While Vitiate has feats of affecting the minds of force users non are on the level of Luke. While I could see Vitiate breaking Yoda's mind after thousands upon thousands of years with the aid of nexuses and the Dread Lords as he had with Revan I can't see it having any practical effect on Yoda in the midst of combat other then to serve as a distraction.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You might be surprised to learn I actually read the enirety of that page.

Your argument is based around Vitiate being a superior telepath to Nyax and Unuthul because he has better showings then them but when taking into account their ability to affect Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo that's simply not the case. If we were measuring potency by scale then even c'baoth might rival them but given his lack of effectiveness against a much less powerful/knowledgable Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade that's simply not the case. While Vitiate has feats of affecting the minds of force users non are on the level of Luke. While I could see Vitiate breaking Yoda's mind after thousands upon thousands of years with the aid of nexuses and the Dread Lords as he had with Revan I can't see it having any practical effect on Yoda in the midst of combat other then to serve as a distraction.
Then you need to read my arguments again because you are telling me nothing new and repeating the same shit that I have addressed/debunked in that thread.

You didn't address it though...

Originally posted by Syndicate
You didn't address it though...
Do you really think that those arguments did not come up in that debate? I have addressed all of them with context and everything. Go through that thread again.

Well I have to get to class. I'm interested in seeing your response when I get back.

Anakin Skywalker should be in the top 10, if Caedus is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Also, the back of another book also said Darth Bane is more powerful than any Sith who had come before, but we know that isn't true either.

Will the day ever come that you and DMB stop lying about this?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Will the day ever come that you and DMB stop lying about this?

It's actually true.


Also, poor dmb I genuinely felt bad when I literally crushed his hopes of using that quote by telling him what Drew told ant.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
It's actually true.


Also, poor dmb I genuinely felt bad when I literally crushed his hopes of using that quote by telling him what Drew told ant.

That past tense tho.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Will the day ever come that you and DMB stop lying about this?
Newguy1, when the **** was the last time I actually brought this quote up?

That's right, not for months if not over a year because of the thing Ant got from Drew.

That's like when you and Carthage were accusing me of holding Bane above Yoda on here when I've had Yoda>Bane for the entirety of my time on KMC.

Don't pretend I hold opinions that I don't actually hold, especially when I'm not even part of the conversation you're giving me shit in.

Back the **** off, Sas.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Newguy1, when the **** was the last time I actually brought this quote up?

That's right, not for months if not over a year because of the thing Ant got from Drew.

That's like when you and Carthage were accusing me of holding Bane above Yoda on here when I've had Yoda>Bane for the entirety of my time on KMC.

Don't pretend I hold opinions that I don't actually hold, especially when I'm not even part of the conversation you're giving me shit in.

Once again, DMB angrily jumps to conclusions based on his preconceived notions rather than what was actually said. I didn't say you (still) thought Bane was the most powerful Sith if all time; I said you've said the same thing as Ant about the quote on the back cover of DoE. And, for the record, it was for the same argument regarding the Plagueis novelization, not Bane's supremacy. If you haven't made that argument in months, it's because you haven't made any arguments here in months, so go back to your corner and keep your angst in your fanfiction.

As for the quote itself, Xtasy, I'm not denying it's existence; I'm denying it's contents. Like he does with most favorable quotes he gets his hands on, Ant stretches it to proportions that the actual material doesn't imply. The fact that Bane is the dark side's most powerful master doesn't mean that it hasn't had more powerful masters before.

btw the Yoda thing is completely true.

https://m.popkey.co/77d068/0J9A6.gif


--------

Damn NG, that's the first time you've bothered to reply, are you bored or something?

Incredibly so.

Stick to the fun parts of debating, like anime and non sw related comics.

No, those are even more cancerous.

More fun and diverse, though.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t626053.html
The definition of power is not universal...

Updated -

Raw power:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Yoda
5/6. Darth Plagueis
5/6. Valkorion
7. Darth Krayt
8. Darth Caedus
9. Kyp Durron
10. Darth Tenebrous
11. Exar Kun
12. Darth Vader
13. Galen Marek
14. Revan
15. Tenebrous's master

I assume you aren't ranking Taalon.

Yeah, I'm just ignoring the likes of Taalon, UnuThul, Nyax, the Anchorites, etc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Updated -

Raw power:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Yoda
5/6. Darth Plagueis
5/6. Valkorion
7. Darth Krayt
8. Darth Caedus
9. Kyp Durron
10. Darth Tenebrous
11. Exar Kun
12. Darth Vader
13. Galen Marek
14. Revan
15. Tenebrous's master

I like his placement of Anakin.

Shouldn't Anakin be #1 for raw power?

^This.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Shouldn't Anakin be #1 for raw power?

No, I don't think his realized power (which I really mean when I say "raw power" surpasses that of post-RotS Sidious. We have enough in and out of universe sources suggesting that he matches or surpasses Yoda in this regard, which seems congruent with his fight with Dooku, but he hasn't done anything to match tearing the surfaces off of worlds.

Of course, he may have reached Yoda's tier in raw power but not necessarily in control or mastery.

-------------------------------------------------------

Lightsaber combat -

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3/4. Yoda
3/4. Anakin Skywalker
5/6. Darth Plagueis
5/6. Darth Caedus
7. Darth Krayt
8. Mace Windu
9. Darth Vader
10. Count Dooku
11. Exar Kun
12/13. Kyp Durron
12/13. Kyle Katarn
14. Obi Wan
15. Darth Maul
16. Galen Marek

Usual stipulations of who I ignore, I'm also ignoring unknowns like Tulak Hord. I may be forgetting some people.

How the hell can you have Vader or Dooku here but not Darth Malgus, Revan, Arcann?

Cause their sabers skills are shit.

Your trolling needs refinement :/

Kyp and Kyle above freaking Kenobi and Maul is disgusting.

Kyp's raw power is too much

Yeah, it's so much that he's on par with Kyle. Who is in no way a Kenobi/Maul level duelist.

Let's all agree that Galen Marek would annihilate Kyp Durron in a fight.

Yeah, Galen would warrant Jaina or Caedus, Kyp is unworthy.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Let's all agree that Galen Marek would annihilate Kyp Durron in a fight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Let's all agree that Galen Marek would annihilate Kyp Durron in a fight.

You've strangely run away from responding to my arguments on the matter. mmm

Dry your eyes, and your cock. Jaina's the Sword of the Jedi, not Kyp. Luke was wrong. Kyp failed at life.

True, Luke's opinion was clearly the only argument that I had in my quiver. Kyp's beating Luke in manipulating singularities and hurling freighters as if they were toys has nothing to do with it, nothing at all.

Kyp's a footnote compared to the likes of Jaina Solo, kek. Dude lost to a Vong Slayer. Galen's outdueling and taking down Darth Vader.

Teenage Jaina Solo was convinced she could take Kyp, lel.

> dismisses Kyp's musings that he's stronger than Luke, even when he beats Luke's black hole feat right afterwards
> takes teenage Jaina's words as gospel

No really, I'm disappointed in you, NewGuy. You're not as competent of a debater as I thought you were. Hmmm...

Now imagine how disappointed we are in you that you think Kyp is above Kenobi...in sabers.

Think Anakin beating down Dooku just through his sheer raw power, or Bane doing the same to Kas'im. And the gap in raw power between Anakin and Dooku is smaller than that between Kyp and Obi Wan.

That being said, I considered putting Kyp/Kyle below or on par with Kenobi in sabers; there's just not enough information as they don't fight any common opponents that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> dismisses Kyp's musings that he's stronger than Luke, even when he beats Luke's black hole feat right afterwards
> takes teenage Jaina's words as gospel

No really, I'm disappointed in you, NewGuy. You're not as competent of a debater as I thought you were. Hmmm...

dat bait tho

I know what you're doing, but it doesn't hide the fact that you would get destroyed if you were being serious anyway.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Think Anakin beating down Dooku just through his sheer raw power, or Bane doing the same to Kas'im. And the gap in raw power between Anakin and Dooku is smaller than that between Kyp and Obi Wan.

That being said, I considered putting Kyp/Kyle below or on par with Kenobi in sabers; there's just not enough information as they don't fight any common opponents that I'm aware of.

So does Kyle have Kyp's raw power, or is Kyle infinitely more skilled? Either way, Kyp is a Kyle-level swordsman, and I'm not sure that's saying much when compared to the likes of Kenobi, who was at least capable of weathering Anakin's assault on Mustafar, humiliating Grevious, greatest Soresu master ever, etc. Even Dooku didn't think he could break through Kenobi's defense by ROTS IIRC.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, I don't think his realized power (which I really mean when I say "raw power" surpasses that of post-RotS Sidious. We have enough in and out of universe sources suggesting that he matches or surpasses Yoda in this regard, which seems congruent with his fight with Dooku, but he hasn't done anything to match tearing the surfaces off of worlds.
Neither has anyone else on your list.

Hence why Sidious is second of all time. Luke beats him when we compare side by side their telekinesis, augmentation, etc., and can be given a pass on not wanting to channel Force storms. He also has powerscaling and noted potential on his side.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So does Kyle have Kyp's raw power, or is Kyle infinitely more skilled?


Kyle might be pretty powerful.



It's unclear because I have no idea how we can compare Katarn to anyone you mentioned.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Hence why Sidious is second of all time. Luke beats him when we compare side by side their telekinesis, augmentation, etc., and can be given a pass on not wanting to channel Force storms. He also has powerscaling and noted potential on his side.
I don't think you quite grasp what the word "anyone" means.

Nah. I'm saying that everyone else gets put below Sidious for that, but Luke gets a pass for X, Y and Z reasons.

Sidious's ability to do it is confirmed in teh sourcebaks

No, you obviously don't, because Sidious doesn't have the raw power required to rip apart planet surfaces from anything we've seen. Force Storms do not work that way, as you've been shown numerous times.

lel

btw the statement you were answering was that he hadn't "done anything to match" it.

No what I'm responding to is, "but he hasn't done anything to match tearing the surfaces off of worlds."

And neither does Palpatine, because he doesn't use raw power to do that. Nice dodge though.

Palpatine harnesses the Force to channel Force storms. That contradicts the definition of "done". What a loser.

micropenis de de?

Originally posted by The Ellimist


Palpatine harnesses the Force to channel Force storms. That contradicts the definition of "done". What a loser.
He doesn't use his own power, which means it has nothing to do with raw power. Your devotion makes you weak.

After a few days, Ellimist is still desperately reaching with his recycled arguments. Are you nearing another triple digit posting day yet again?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He doesn't use his own power, which means it has nothing to do with raw power. Your devotion makes you weak.

A point for putting Yoda above Valkorion which I guess I did mention; Yoda is pretty far past his prime when he confronts Palpatine in RotS. My personal canon puts prime Yoda on RotJ Sidious's level as a Force user, and DE Sidous's level as a duelist.

Your lists are actually pretty neat, but I think my tiers are better

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t627079.html

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A point for putting Yoda above Valkorion which I guess I did mentiont.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o1zXTnSfOA

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A point for putting Yoda above Valkorion which I guess I did mention; Yoda is pretty far past his prime when he confronts Palpatine in RotS. My personal canon puts prime Yoda on RotJ Sidious's level as a Force user, and DE Sidous's level as a duelist.

Are you implying that DE Sidious improved from RotS as a lightsaber duelist, or that Yoda got better as he aged?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Are you implying that DE Sidious improved from RotS as a lightsaber duelist, or that Yoda got better as he aged?

DE Sidious probably improved just from the sheer power increase; he spent 20 years studying the Force to the OT, during which some of his best feats in the EU occur, and then he explicitly grows even more powerful by DE, and puts himself in a clone body from his physical prime. Any rust that he may have accumulated, if we assume he just decided to forsake lightsaber dueling altogether, is likely compensated for given those improvements.

No, improved force abilities doesn't compensate for 20+ years of not using a lightsaber or even practicing, which is most likely what happened. Also putting Yoda over Valkorion is hysterical.

Uh, you realise Sidious didn't practice with his lightsaber like at all upon becoming Chancellor?

Yup so 25+ years, my mistake.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uh, you realise Sidious didn't practice with his lightsaber like at all upon becoming Chancellor?

TCW has called that into question, though. RotS being the first time he's held his lightsaber in years is retconned now.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup so 25+ years, my mistake. Not the point, rather than that despite over a decade of no practice he's still going toe-to-toe with Windu, Yoda, Maul etc. I doubt an extra few decades would have changed anything.Originally posted by NewGuy01
TCW has called that into question, though. RotS being the first time he's held his lightsaber in years is retconned now. Meh, RotS, post AotC - same difference.

The passage of Time means nothing to the immortal dovah.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup so 25+ years, my mistake.

https://i.imgflip.com/8fjrj.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not the point, rather than that despite over a decade of no practice he's still going toe-to-toe with Windu, Yoda, Maul etc. I doubt an extra few decades would have changed anything.Meh, RotS, post AotC - same difference.

Wait, how do we know he didn't practice for that entire decade? It's more plausible he didn't practice as Emperor.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup so 25+ years, my mistake.

https://i.imgflip.com/8fjrj.jpg


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not the point, rather than that despite over a decade of no practice he's still going toe-to-toe with Windu, Yoda, Maul etc. I doubt an extra few decades would have changed anything.Meh, RotS, post AotC - same difference.

#owned

You all can excuse the brain damaged individual. He's taken way too many chairshots to the head.

You are excused. Dont have any chairs here, but I assume there is a lot in da warehouse.

Concussion like symptoms

So you insult people based on un proven injuries.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/33f7c21a61e18c4922648f84e3066835/tumblr_inline_ntsz5vC8x71rkf4dx_500.gif

I saw that removal of the "typical greedy jew" comment, TI. You ain't slick.

He is a greedy jew, nothing new to report.

I love how the troll signal is pointing towards TI's avatar and not MS's.

I love how you guys jumping on grenades for a guy who regularly trolls you guys. All this stuff is from stuff he has posted in this forum about people here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I love how the troll signal is pointing towards TI's avatar and not MS's.

Nice edit, you ain't slick.

LMFAO

Uh, nice try at being clever, I guess, but I didn't change anything? I clarified what was already there. Don't you have some other bridge to live under?

Do you? I am not here trolling you, you are trolling me. I have no problem with you.

Hey guys, ignore him. He's mentally handicapped so he's going to keep trying.

Same thing we say about you in the gdf. Irony, you have a problem with me doing the exact same thing here to you, that you do in the GDF.

Someone doesn't understand irony

Yea, you. Someone also can't follow his own words.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yea, you. Someone also can't follow his own words.

Ah, the trend of the brain damaged.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/51280010.jpg

Nerd rage rebuttal incoming...

Says ignore him, but keeps responding.

Yes, telling others to ignore you while I keep responding is somehow a contradiction.

http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Facepalm-Meme-04.png

Calls someone a nerd, while being a Star Wars nerd

http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Facepalm-Meme-04.png

This is the most boring internet fight I've ever seen.

yeah

DMB vs Xtasy is way better

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
This is the most boring internet fight I've ever seen.

Warehouse workers are pretty boring.

^ that was actually halfway decent.

Its hars to fight with someone who's braindead because it's really a slaughter. This special needs guy only comes to this subforum to parrot and get the last word in.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Its hars to fight with someone who's braindead because it's really a slaughter. This special needs guy only comes to this subforum to parrot and get the last word in.



Calling people braindead and claiming its a slaughter while mis spelling easy words.

Its spelled "hard" retard.

Brain dead people usually have jobs in warehouses.

TMYK

hvala ukrainie

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial


Calling people braindead and claiming its a slaughter while mis spelling easy words.

Its spelled "hard" retard.

Brain dead people usually have jobs in warehouses.

TMYK looks like captain brain dead spent a few minutes with spell check. Thanks for correcting my cell phone message. You are definitely as amusing in this subforum as well as the other one. We await yet another nerd rage retort.