Arcann vs Dooku

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DarthAnt66
Information about Arcann: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/arcann-respect-thread/103998.

I'm interested to see where you all put him now. I imagine the opinions of him have decreased slightly as time went on.

NOTE: For the sake of this thread, we are not considering the possibility of a defeat by the Hero of Tython.

Syndicate
Dooku. Good fight.

S_W_LeGenD
Arcann comfortably

The Ellimist
tbh, it's probably Arcann if he can force a Force fight, given his tanking Valkorion's lightning and the implication that he's the most powerful character in the galaxy sans his father. He doesn't have enough on him as a duelist for me to buy him beating Dooku in that category, so it comes down to how their comparative advantages interact.

Can Arcann teleport? If he can, he probably wins. Otherwise it probably depends on starting distance. He probably can't ragdoll Dooku outright (I'd say you need to be Palpatine tier to do that), but his chances of overwhelming his defenses probably increase the longer the battle lasts.

Syndicate
I don't believe Arcann has shown himself capable of teleportation.

S_W_LeGenD
Savage Opress sent Count Dooku packing across the hall. You don't need to be Palpatine to affect Count Dooku in a significant way.

Syndicate
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Savage Opress sent Count Dooku packing across the hall. You don't need to be Palpatine to affect Count Dooku in a significant way.

In the force or with his strength? Because if we're talking about the Force Savage has only ever overcome Dooku briefly when enraged.

If we're talking about his physical strength disarming the Count then I find it important to bring up the fact that Dooku was likely not expecting such a precise or physically powerful strike from Savage. He was essentially training a blank slate but when Ventress arrived she granted him his former memories as a combatant.

The Ellimist
^ yeah, but just shoving Dooku isn't going to kill him.

I'd say Arcann needs to either overwhelm him outright, or survive in their duel long enough to spot an opening in Dooku's Force defenses.

Somewhat arbitrarily I'd give 5/10 odds if they start from 10 meters.

|King Joker|
50/50, honestly.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Syndicate
In the force or with his strength? Because if we're talking about the Force Savage has only ever overcome Dooku briefly when enraged.

If we're talking about his physical strength disarming the Count then I find it important to bring up the fact that Dooku was likely not expecting such a precise or physically powerful strike from Savage. He was essentially training a blank slate but when Ventress arrived she granted him his former memories as a combatant.
Sith train themselves to draw on their emotions for strength. Becoming enraged is easy for them.

Savage Opress managed to put Count Dooku in a choke-hold while enraged (and this happened when Opress's training was far from complete). Later on, Savage Opress would defeat Plo Koon (when he is much better trained) and people perceive Plo Koon as one of the strongest Jedi of the Order.

Strength is also a good factor. Arcann is physically very strong as well; Arcann disarmed a powerful Sith Lord (Darth Atroxa) with bare hands and knocked several Sith Warriors unconscious with his physical blows alone (All of this in the same battle).

Seriously, Count Dooku is outgunned in this contest.

Syndicate
There is a standard level of power for beings and a level of power they can employ when enraged ( which is not their base level whether they're drawing on their anger or not ). Regardless Savage was not trained for more then a few days.

Your point being?

Can you give me his best strength feats? Those feats don't seem to be better then bending durasteel and ripping out a durasteel console from the floor of a capital ship tbh.

In what way?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Syndicate
There is a standard level of power for beings and a level of power they can employ when enraged ( which is not their base level ). Regardless Savage was not trained for more then a few days.
Point is that a much better trained Savage Opress might put Count Dooku in a choke-hold without being enraged.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes, and?
And it should tell you how much he grew with proper training.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Can you give me his best strength feats? Those feats don't seem to be better then bending durasteel and ripping out a durasteel console from the floor of a capital ship tbh.
You think that damaging some inanimate objects is more difficult then disarming a powerful Sith Lord with bare hands? Seriously?

Originally posted by Syndicate
In what way?
In all areas.

Syndicate
He may or may not be able to do such a thing ( my bets on not considering he never showed a significantly better feat later on ), that's just speculation. Regardless it has no bearing on Arcann's capabilities.

Yes, and? I'm failing to see how that's relevant.

I edited my post after I saw your edit. As I said knocking some force users out and disarming a Sith Lord is not equivalent to Grievous's feats a being who's blows Dooku casually parried.

Could you walk me through why you believe Arcann to be superior?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Syndicate
He may or may not be able to do such a thing ( my bets on not considering he never showed a significantly better feat later on ), that's just speculation. Regardless it has no bearing on Angral's capabilities.
There is no reason to assume why he (i.e. Savage Opress) could not. He was able to affect even Palpatine with this telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Yes, and? I'm failing to see how that's relevant.
Defeating Plo Koon is not an impressive showing and indicative of growth in power and abilities?

Originally posted by Syndicate
I edited my post after I saw your edit. As I said knocking some non force users out and disarming a Sith Lord is not equivalent to Grievous's feats a being who's blows Dooku casually parried.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873227-0789302116-Ri02M.gif

All of those victims were Force-users. The Twi'lek is Darth Atroxa.

Now show me a comparable feat from Count Dooku.

Parrying Grievous's blows? Seriously? That was something that even a padawan could do.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Could you walk me through why you believe Arcann to be superior?
Arcann is a match for any protagonist. Want me to elaborate the capabilities of each protagonist?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by |King Joker|
50/50, honestly.
Arcann >

Syndicate
I looked into the RT. Couldn't find the feat you're referring to. Mind linking me the video and timestamp it occurs at?

Sure it is but like I said I'm not really sure what this has to do with Arcann's capabilities.

Should I know her? Does she have some impressive strength feat of her own that makes Arcann's own feat of disarming her enough to be a viable advantage against Dooku?

I am well aware of the capabilities of the protagonists thank you. I can even understand why you'd think Arcann might have a force advantage. I'm not really sure I understand why you think he'd be a superior lightsaber combatant or why Arcann's force advantage would allow him to overcome Dooku when Yoda himself was unable to.

DarthAnt66
I think Arcann's physical edge over Dooku should be fairly obvious, Syndicate.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I think Arcann's physical edge over Dooku should be fairly obvious, Syndicate.

Given neither Yoda nor Grievous's strength showed to be of notable concern to the Count I'd have to beg to differ.

DarthAnt66
What? Yoda's strength was of complete concern to the Count. Yoda's lightsaber was completely immovable from its position while Dooku was pouring out all his strength.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? Yoda's strength was of complete concern to the Count. Yoda's lightsaber was completely immovable from its position while Dooku was pouring out all his strength.

It wasn't enough to provide a viable threat do Dooku himself though. Enough to stone wall Dooku in a saber lock sure ( which is only to be expected given its Yoda ) but the only time Dooku has been disadvantaged by strength based opponents is by Savage when he was caught off guard by his combative skill in conjunction with the Zabrak's enormous strength and in his fight with a focused Chosen One and later on when Anakin's rage was being stroked by Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Syndicate
I looked into the RT. Couldn't find the feat you're referring to. Mind linking me the video and timestamp it occurs at?
Which feat?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sure it is but like I said I'm not really sure what this has to do with Arcann's capabilities.
Arcann >> Savage Opress

Originally posted by Syndicate
Should I know her? Does she have some impressive strength feat of her own that makes Arcann's own feat of disarming her enough to be a viable advantage against Dooku?
She was a Darth, dude. Why would it be not be impressive to disarm her with bare hands? This is clearly a Darth Malgus level strength feat.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I am well aware of the capabilities of the protagonists thank you. I can even understand why you'd think Arcann might have a force advantage. I'm not really sure I understand why you think he'd be a superior lightsaber combatant or why Arcann's force advantage would allow him to overcome Dooku when Yoda himself was unable to.
BioWare promotes Hero of Tython as the Outlander at official level. Hero of Tython is arguably the most skilled duelist (among the Jedi) of his era. And Arcann was able to match Hero's dueling skills, even impale him (if you refuse Valkorion's assistance).

Arcann have prodigious defensive abilities. I doubt that Count Dooku can affect him much with his Force abilities.

Even if you choose Sith Warrior or Barsen'thor as the Outlander, Arcann manages to overwhelm you in the battle.

I disregard Darth Nox from a comparison because he is not depicted drawing on the power of Force ghosts since the original story. BioWare is not paying much attention to this story element unfortunately or Darth Nox freed the Force ghosts he had bind to himself to defeat Darth Thanaton.

Syndicate
Force pushing Sidious.

Why do you believe that? Also even if that was the case Savage's feats in an enraged state are as I said not equivalent to his feats at his standard level and so the comparison between the two at their base levels is not an accurate scale to use for Dooku and Arcann.

Plenty of people were Darth's friend. It doesn't mean they were any type of impressive. Because when someone is gripping your wrists hard you're going to instinctively release your own grip to allow your wrists more circulation? How is squeezing somebody's wrist hard enough to make them let go of their lightsaber as impressive as shattering marble flooring or a stone pillar with the excess kinetic force used from physically launching someone with your strength alone?

"BioWare promotes Hero of Tython as the Outlander at official level."

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

Because of his accolade of being a battlemaster? Like Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow were?

I don't disagree with you here.

We're assuming HoT as that's the most skilled/powerful incarnation of the protagonist correct?

Fair enough.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
It wasn't enough to provide a viable threat do Dooku himself though. Enough to stone wall Dooku in a saber lock sure ( which is only to be expected given its Yoda ) but the only time Dooku has been disadvantaged by strength based opponents is by Savage when he was caught off guard by his combative skill in conjunction with the Zabrak's enormous strength and in his fight with a focused Chosen One and later on when Anakin's rage was being stroked by Sidious.
Yoda's never been an immense powerhouse of strength. He could be, but that's not his style. He humiliated Dooku due to speed and skill, which was sufficient.

The fact he was capable of making Dooku's lightsaber immovable is proof that it was within his abilities as well to pose a clear threat to him via physical strength.

With Grievous, novice Jedi have defended against him in the past. The argument doesn't really stand, despite Grievous' rare displays of ridiculous strength.

And then you concede that two individuals noted to actually use strength to turn the tide of battle exploited Dooku's weakness. I'm glad you see the point.

Syndicate
I'll begin quoting your posts from this point on as I see our back and forth is expanding.

Going to bed relatively soon so I'll respond to your inevitable response tomorrow.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yoda's never been an immense powerhouse of strength. He could be, but that's not his style. He humiliated Dooku due to speed and skill, which was sufficient.

The fact he was capable of making Dooku's lightsaber immovable is proof that it was within his abilities as well to pose a clear threat to him via physical strength.

With Grievous, novice Jedi have defended against him in the past. The argument doesn't really stand, despite Grievous' rare displays of ridiculous strength.

And then you concede that two individuals noted to actually use strength to turn the tide of battle exploited Dooku's weakness. I'm glad you see the point.

He's matched Sidious. If he was capable of disarming Dooku with his strength he would have to have ended the war before it started. In regards to speed I'd agree with you though I find technical skill to be more debatable.

Apparently it wasn't the most viable combat option against Dooku otherwise he would have employed a more strength based attack.

Grievous was simply adjusting to his bodies capabilities. It'd certainly be an interesting transition to go from 2 arms to 4 and learning how to adjust and control your strikes to apply just the right amount of kinetic force to maximize speed and efficiency. That's my belief anyways as it's one of the only logical explanations if we're taking Legends and canon together.

I concede that a focused Anakin and an enraged Anakin provided a threat to Dooku via strength alone and that Dooku when unprepared for Savage's combative skill and precision in conjunction with his brute strength was able to disarm him, yes.

DarthAnt66
Except Yoda's style is focused speed and agility, not strength, hence why he utilized the former and not the latter. Stop trying to argue things obviously not true.

I don't care for your theories on Grievous. Foul Moudama was capable of handling his attacks with one arm while handling Palpatine with the other right before the third film.

Good.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Yoda's style is focused speed and agility, not strength, hence why he utilized the former and not the latter. Stop trying to argue things obviously not true.

I don't care for your theories on Grievous. Foul Moudama was capable of handling his attacks with one arm while handling Palpatine with the other right before the third film.

Good.

I agree his style was based around speed and agility. Yoda obviously viewed it as more beneficial to employ his speed advantage against Dooku then his strength advantage. What do you mean arguing things that aren't true?

Well then we have to accept that those Jedi were simply physically strong enough to do so if you don't want to use logical deduction. Given Moudama's build it's actually not that surprising.

Yep. Alright Ant going to bed but I'm excited to see your response tomorrow. ^^

S_W_LeGenD

DarthAnt66
That the fact Yoda didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku doesn't means anything other than that he didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku.

Jedi never throw all their cards on the table - especially their trump card. That's one of the main things that separate them from Sith in combat.

Look to Revan in the novel and how instead of telekinetically dominating or charging the small group of Mandalorians, he ducked for cover.

Look to Luke Skywalker in later works and how, despite being the greatest Jedi in history, did not dominate Lumiya quickly despite wanting to.

However, when something they want can only be achieved by utilizing X, and then assuming X is acceptable to their doctrine, they will use it.

I point to then Revan unleashing both sides of the Force upon Vitiate or Luke Skywalker pinning Darth Caedus against a chair for this.

Yoda did not need to throw down all his cards against Dooku to win quickly, and so he didn't. He stuck with his main cards and kept the others back.

If anything, that further brings the point home: Yoda was humiliating Dooku without even bringing all his powers to bare upon him. Pitiful.


When the instances of Grievous dominating Jedi through physical strength are an actual fraction compared to those where the Jedi handled it fine, your argument that Dooku not being bothered by Grievous' blows is not that relevant. There's also the fact that "there had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to out-duel the cyborg," bringing forth the possibility that Grievous' strength could have actually challenged Dooku anyway. We don't know.

DarthAnt66
That was just a headbutt, I think.

Syndicate
It was just a head butt. XD I'll get to that tomorrow. Gents. *Tips hat*

DarthAnt66
I'll be departing for the night as well. I'll be back on in probably twelve hours, given I like to sleep.

The Ellimist
I actually agree with Ant on the Yoda vs. Dooku thing; the various sources depicting their duel makes it clear that Yoda is basically dominating him in every capacity, and I wouldn't be surprised if he could have just defeated him with telekinesis outright, but doesn't do that because he's a dumbass he's a Jedi. As Ant points out, it's pretty common for Jedi to mysteriously not use their telekinesis when they pretty obviously could; Luke's musings in Specter of the Past suggest that the Jedi fear that abusing the Force could tempt them to the dark side. Yoda does use TK in certain circumstances, such as against Palpatine and his red guards, and even against random clone troopers, but hey, the Jedi can be hypocrites, who knew? Plus, Dark Rendevous makes it clear that

1. Yoda doesn't want to kill Dooku
2. Nexus! amped Dooku still can't take on Yoda

The gap is pretty vast.

That being said, I don't see any reason to think that Arcann can dominate him outright.

Trocity
Legend thinking that that was a force push makes me wonder what else he wildly misinterprets.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
LeGenD, that's clearly not a force push, lmfao. smile

S_W_LeGenD
I rechecked it and it is indeed a headbutt. Might be a Force-enhanced headbutt. But my bad.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Trocity
Legend thinking that that was a force push makes me wonder what else he wildly misinterprets.
He's burnt out from being on his metaphorical knees

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Trocity
Legend thinking that that was a force push makes me wonder what else he wildly misinterprets. laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
Legend thinking that that was a force push makes me wonder what else he wildly misinterprets.
Last time I checked, nobody has infallible memory. Almost everybody whom I had the honor to debate with, have made a mistake or two while recalling events.

Next time, I will document such mistakes and PM to you. But seriously...

FreshestSlice
The difference is you posted a video.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The difference is you posted a video.
So?

http://www.sciencealert.com/how-your-eyes-deceive-you

It happens. Shit happens.

FreshestSlice
That's a pretty pathetic excuse for something that is so blatantly obvious.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's a pretty pathetic excuse for something that is so blatantly obvious.
How is it a pathetic excuse? I experienced a vision distortion. Perhaps I am tired.

The_Tempest
LeG, does it bother you that no one in the SWTOR camp besides Neph has any modicum of respect for you or your opinions?

Beniboybling
Fresh, Legend has provided the ground realities on vision distortion. Concede. smile

The_Tempest
'Strap can only concede if vision distortion have sufficient hype in encyclopedic medium.

FreshestSlice
Vision distortions feats don't compare bullshit dominating entire forums.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Syndicate
Given neither Yoda nor Grievous's strength showed to be of notable concern to the Count I'd have to beg to differ.

I think it's noted in the novel that if Dooku didn't have his amount of force strength Yoda would have pushed through his defenses, so Dooku needed as much strength as he did just to hold off Yoda. Then you take into consideration Dooku was able to stand his own agaisnt a force augmented Yoda so he would be able to do so against Grevious who's peak is limited by his cybernetics, while Dooku has the everlasting power of the force.

EmperorSidious2
Dooku should take sabers

Arcann should take force

If Arcann can force this to a force fight than yes Arcann win. If he can't Dooku will take a saber advantage. I see the force fight as the more likely of the two so with that I see Arcann winning this fight.

FreshestSlice
Dooku can't deal with Arcann's strength for that long, even in sabers only.

hutchy1345
Dooku can't stop sidious choking him from across the galaxy
Meanwhile arcann tanks valkorion's force abilities
Also defeating outlander in a duel
Arcann > dooku

FreshestSlice
Some full retreated tier logic.

Nephthys
Arcann should take Dooku in all aspects except beards and capes.

hutchy1345
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Some full retreated tier logic.

And why's that

Nephthys
Arcann tanking Valkorion's blast is a stellar feat beyond Dooku's.

MythLord
Dooku takes sabers, Arcann takes Force and likely all-out.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by hutchy1345
And why's that
Because those instances aren't comparable, and Valkorion can casually one shot Arcann.

hutchy1345
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because those instances aren't comparable, and Valkorion can casually one shot Arcann.
How are they not comparable, they clearly show arcann's superiority
And where's your evidence that valk can oneshot him

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Lel

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by hutchy1345
How are they not comparable, they clearly show arcann's superiority
And where's your evidence that valk can oneshot him
You're an idiot.
And you're an idiot.
ZJzC8UHFuBM

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
LeG, does it bother you that no one in the SWTOR camp besides Neph has any modicum of respect for you or your opinions?
Really?

Everybody who is a legitimate fan of SWTOR related content have respect for me.

The Ellimist
*has

Syndicate

The Ellimist
Legend's condescension is both really funny and a little cringe inducing. The guy actually thinks he's some sort of brilliant thinker. Like, by this point in his life there should have been enough signals that told him otherwise. The self delusion is kind of surreal.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

Everybody who is a legitimate fan of SWTOR related content have respect for me.

In other words:

"Someone who doesn't respect me can't be a legitimate fan of SWTOR related content."

Right?

Syndicate
That the fact Yoda didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku doesn't means anything other than that he didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku.

Well, it means that he thought his speed and agility were a more useful tool in defeating the Count then his strength.

Jedi never throw all their cards on the table - especially their trump card. That's one of the main things that separate them from Sith in combat.

Um, what? Jedi do what's necessary to keep the peace. It wouldn't make sense for Yoda to have let Dooku go as he knew that would only lead to a war that would cause the death of untold sentient beings. Sure he didn't want to kill his former apprentice but if we capable of incapacitating the Count in the time that they fought he would have.

Look to Revan in the novel and how instead of telekinetically dominating or charging the small group of Mandalorians, he ducked for cover.

I doubt he was capable of doing so at the time without putting himself at risk tbh. He only ever demonstrated impressive levels of power after donning his mask and regaining his memories of being a Dark Lord.

Look to Luke Skywalker in later works and how, despite being the greatest Jedi in history, did not dominate Lumiya quickly despite wanting to.

Luke was enraged and killed in anger. I believe we can excuse him for not choosing the most logical course of action here.

However, when something they want can only be achieved by utilizing X, and then assuming X is acceptable to their doctrine, they will use it.

Sure but as you just pointed out they're goals were not only achievable by X ( lightsaber combat ) but Y and Z ( Lightning and TK ). Also I don't think Luke was thinking much about his doctrine in his fight with Lumiya.

I point to then Revan unleashing both sides of the Force upon Vitiate or Luke Skywalker pinning Darth Caedus against a chair for this.

Um, Revan after donning the mask was fine with using both the Light and Darkside and it's not like he could afford to hold back against such a superior opponent. There's no reason Luke pinning Caedus to a chair would be outside of his morales either.

Yoda did not need to throw down all his cards against Dooku to win quickly, and so he didn't. He stuck with his main cards and kept the others back.

He needed to overwhelm Dooku in the quickest way possible to keep him from starting a galaxy spanning war. I don't see a reason why Yoda would have been messing around. Even if he was unwilling to kill Dooku if he was capable of incapacitating Dooku either by disarming him with a powerblow or overwhelming him with TK, he would have. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. Since he didn't and this ultimately led to Dooku's escape I assume he was incapable of doing so.

If anything, that further brings the point home: Yoda was humiliating Dooku without even bringing all his powers to bare upon him. Pitiful.

Lol wut? Why would Yoda have not used his powers to incapacitate Dooku if he was capable of doing so? That makes absolutely no sense.

When the instances of Grievous dominating Jedi through physical strength are an actual fraction compared to those where the Jedi handled it fine, your argument that Dooku not being bothered by Grievous' blows is not that relevant.

My argument isn't even based on Grievous overwhelming force users. It's based on Grievous having accomplished X feat and was unable to garner an advantage against Dooku because of his strength so what feat has Arcann accomplished that WOULD allow him to.

There's also the fact that "there had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to out-duel the cyborg," bringing forth the possibility that Grievous' strength could have actually challenged Dooku anyway. We don't know.

Given we saw Dooku easily slapping aside Grievous's strikes and Grievous's own performance against Mace ( a peer of Dooku's ) it can be logically deducted that it was the cyborg's skill that allowed him to challenge the Count.

The Ellimist
Lol Syndicate's willing to sort of quote now.

Syndicate
It took almost too much effort. Don't know if I'll do it again.

Syndicate
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I think it's noted in the novel that if Dooku didn't have his amount of force strength Yoda would have pushed through his defenses, so Dooku needed as much strength as he did just to hold off Yoda. Then you take into consideration Dooku was able to stand his own agaisnt a force augmented Yoda so he would be able to do so against Grevious who's peak is limited by his cybernetics, while Dooku has the everlasting power of the force.

And that's fine. Given Yoda matched Sidious that only makes sense.

DarthAnt66
Were your responses genuine?

Syndicate
Yiz.

DarthAnt66
Would you like to retype them so they made sense and followed my points or no?

Syndicate
Nope. You know you don't have to respond if you don't like. :>

NewGuy01
I imagine this fight would probably be similar to Anakin vs Dooku in S4, tbh.

DarthAnt66
(EDIT: Not even going to bother).

Syndicate
Concession accepted.

DarthAnt66
Hardly. You used the same arguments as your previous post, just now sprinkled it with some absolute r****dation.

To accept a concession means I failed to respond to points you made - I responded to them all. You're just regurgitating yourself.

The Ellimist
Arcann takes a terminal velocity fall worse than padawan Anakin did, GG.

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