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He is the architect. He explained his purpose to Neo. He planted the seed of doubt in Neo. What do you think was the purpose of revealing that much of the "truth" to Neo and then Neo telling the "truth" to Morpheus.

The purpose is.....

What are your thoughts?

maybe because he didn't think Neo would be just a damn selfish bastard and put trinity's life over the life of every single human on earth...but like the oracle said, the choice has already been made, what you have to do is understand why you made that choice...i'm sure that we'll figure out why he made such a choice other than the obviousness of his love for Trinity.

i'm not so sure of the architects purpose but i think it's pretty obvious he got neo to chose the door he intended him to....

And to what purpose do you think the Architect did what he did and Neo doing everything by "program" according to your idea and that of the Architect? Afterall, he is what we would call the "trickster" Can you think of it in terms of the ultimate survival and who's survival?

Is it truly symbiotic, dual control, or struggle for control?

has anyone noticed the conversation between the architect and neo has exactly the same context in the dialogue between neo and the chancellor? and why the hell did the chancellor quickly accept morpheous request to leave zion without much questioning? could he be in line with the baddies?

Good thought. That remains to be seen. I love Anthony Zerbe. He's played some BADDIES in his day. So you may not be far off the mark.

What connection do you think Zerbe's character has with the Architect?

maul, i am not sure about the zerbe guy's connection, but if he himself isnt the architect, then he must be a traitor under him and remeber he was stressing the need for machines by humans. he was kinda stressing that we can't do without the machines and vice versa and so maybe neo could consider returning to the source to create a balance or something( getting confused myself so wipe that look off).

The Archtitect simply told Neo the way it was, that is all.

Or told him what he wanted to tell him. Me and my friends wonder how much of what he said was truth, and how much was outright lies.. We shall see...

The architect and the matrix, I believe, are all wrong in one thing. They believe that their is no choice for Neo, that he will fall in line just like the rest od the anomallies. However, the architect is disproven twice. He tells Noe that, "trinity will die and there is nothing you can do about it" we all no that is proven false. The architect also said that Neo would chose to go into mainframe and reinsert his code and thus, according to the architect, the matrix would then build a new matrix according to the code he carries (i printed out script) False. Neo chooses door number #2 into matrix, and zion is not repopulated. My idea is that part of the rules within the matrix is that their is no free choice, that everything occurrence can be forseen and is based on cause and effect. Like every other rule Neo can bend and break, this is one of them. Could this be with the new addition of a feeling to the anomally of "love"? I think so. Hope I wasn't too confusing.

Huh? The whole POINT is that there IS choice for Neo, and the Architect knows that. And also Neo DID fail to save Trinity. But he then brought her back to life afterwards.

He did not say Neo WOULD go into the Source. He said that was his function. But on the contrary, the Architect knew what choice Neo had made before Neo did- and that would be to attempt to save Trinity. And he knew the reason for that as well- his specific, rather than general, attchment to humanity.

But why machines would risk to offer Neo choice? I still believe that Architect is just a sort of system protection, as agents are.

Agents should destroy his body, while Architect should destroy his soul.

All machines are trying to keep current conditions. So architect tells him what to do to keep it. But why would he tell: well, you know, you can do something else to free people?

I agree Thelvan. But Neo doesn't really know. Of course the Architect is a defensive part of the A.I. Like another phage form. A defense cell. But like you said the Agents are the sharks and wolves of the program, but the Architect is the "intelligent killer" program. Seeking psychological and "spiritual" weakness by offering choices of survival but death is inevitable. Almost like saying that no matter what choice Neo makes massive loss of life of Xion and other "colonies" will still happen and that he had to chose the best of the human stock to start the breeding again. The human breeding program according to Neo and the chief architect is the A.I. A.I. as "God" and the Architect as it's protector, analyst, and trickster. Neo as the bridge across the gap for the benefit of the survival of the two lifeforms.... human and A.I.

Excellent analysis Mithrandir.

But the Architect's position (and that of the A.I.) is that there is no such thing as choice. Either way according to the A.I., the "choice" of Neo is already known and either way Xion falls and he will have to chose the breeders of the next cycle of the struggle. The Matrix lives on no matter what according to the Architect.

It is nothing to do with RISKING choice. The Architect has to accept that choice exists or the Matrix does not work, as he directly described in his conversation.

I think people are overcomplicating. The Architect is the creator of the matrix, as he says, and what he told Neo was all true.

Possibly. Or so he, the Architect, wants The One to believe. His candor is a powerful weapon. Like all entities, the Matrix A.I. will do what is necessary to survive. Keep the human thinking that they are fighting a war of survival and that they can in some way directly destroy the A.I. He possibly wove a lie in with the truth. The direct results? The ideological schism that was created with Neo telling Morpheus that it is all a lie and that there have been several destructions of Xion and several incarnations of The One.

Could it be that the Architect was telling Neo that humanity is just another part of the program. The grand design and every now and again it has to be "backed up" and reset?

Could that be what the Architect was telling Neo?

You could start to identify a billion scenarios by assuming the Architect selectively lied but we have no reason to think he did. By far the most likely outcome was that it is true. It was, after all, preseneted as the major end of film revelation and if much of that turns out to be false it will be a bit poor.

The beauty of it is that all of us are wrong! LOL!!!

But it is fun to speculate like this.

I have my prejudices. I still think that the Architect with the help of the Oracle are leading Neo into another realm of existance because he actually transcends the ordinary human existance in the Matrix. He is part of the Matrix and can never escape. He is the spark plug. The Jump Start for everything and taking it all to another level of expression. That is why the system has never really tried to kill him but gave him many many openings. Smith has become a rogue phage and he can wreak havoc within the system too. Old programming.

well the architect cant lie or trick neo because then it takes away choice which is vital to the reboot of the matrix.

has anyone noticed that in the first matrix movie, neo chose the pill to his LEFT and in reloaded, he chose the door to his LEFT? is there some connection here or pure coincidence and remeber both situations where about making choices......

who knows? there is probably only two guys that know wether it is coincidence or not.

Ah the LEFT...

The lefthand of things. The ultimate reality probably. Things that you are not suppose to know but you want to know. Things hidden. The leftside and lefthand of everything is the most difficult I guess. Things coming at you out of left field.

The left? Things close to the heart. It will be good to know if the Wachowski brothers are lefthanded.

Anyway, excellent observation Alaba!!! We are basically left brain dominated, but the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body. For Neo the right side of his brain was stimulated by the Architect with his "left side of reality" logic. UH OH!!! Very interesting.

Has anybody read Carlos Castaneda? I wouldn't be surprised if the Wachowski brothers read it. It has to do with the "left side of reality"... the Narwal. The most difficult aspect of life and reality.

In a way all of these is really altered states of consciousness. The Wachowski Brothers are from that generation that was very hip to that way of thinking and philosophy.

maul, i just figured this in the matrix, the oracle told neo he would have to choose between his life(destiny) and morpheous' life, and that one of them would have to die but neo went ahead and rescued morpheous and still retained his life(destiny). in reloaded, the architect told him he would have to chose between saving trinity and saving zion(destiny), but he went ahead, saved trinity and definitely would save zion, which all implies he's the one.

No, Neo DID die in the original, remember? And Trinity DID die in the sequel. He was not lied to at any point.

Plus he was told that because he needed to be told that. if it werent for that he would not have gone for morpheus and faced realization that he is the one.

Yep. By design there is choice in this version of the Matrix.

I don't see why Neo's code would be needed for a reboot of the system though (this is what the Arhitect says, isn't it?). It would be optimised for the next Matrix version, but I think it's a bit strange.

Or wouldn't there be a reboot, but would Neo's code stabilize the system instead? After all, he's is the one who changed the Matrix in the first place.

The Architect wants to examine the anomaly personified. He is probably still working on wiping it out.

i think the arqutect studied Neo since the begining thats why in M1 in the interrogation room there was monitors watching him.. the arquitect knews neos thoughts, so he can manipulated him. Otherwise neo is realized that him and only him can decided about what to do (sometimes) Ithink that is he doesnt listen the oracle and damn arquitect he will succed.

Am new to this forum and am still trying to get my head around the Matrix and Matrix Reloaded. But one thought did cross my mind....could the Architect somehow be human and not a computer programme?

In one of the movies, someone said something about Power and how all Men wanted it..and when they had it they wanted more. Seemed to me that the architect had the power to do what ever he wanted within the Matrix.

Also, in Matrix 1 Morpheus (my spelling in kinda crap) said something about someone being born within the Matrix and he was the first etc and set the rest of them free.

I could be talking total crap here but what do you think? Have I REALLY not grasped the whole thing?!

Definetly there was someone born within the matrix like morph said , But we saw in M2 that everything Morph belived wasnt real atleast.

what do you think of this?

The Matrix Reloaded Decoded

jclune.com/MatrixReloadedDecoded.html

I like it. Never noticed the dots under the Architect's eyes.
I am hoping this is not a Matrix within a Matrix within a Matrix type thing. That becomes a little weak in terms of plot twists and a wimpy way to write yourself out of a jam.

One thing I have noticed, is that it seems as if Neo and the others are being used as pawns in a power struggle by the various programs. (The Oracle vs. The Frenchman vs. The Architect, etc.) If Neo really does bring down the Matrix, all the programs would end - and my guess is they do not want that. But, if he only brought down one of the programs (The Frenchman, by taking away his Keymaker), The Oracle and The Architect gain more power and control over the Matrix.

His analyses are flawed in several ways, especially on immedaitely dismissing Neo as the anomaly and saying that Neo is te One in the real world.

nice deduction ijwtl.....i'll think on that. remember the merovingian accused them of only following orders and not knowing the 'why' of their actions meaning, they are being used for an end. but now that neo has realised he doesnt need choice, he can do what he wants and save humanity.

YES THAT WAS I THOUGHT NEOS GONNA DO WHAT HE CONSIDER NECESARY, BUT THIS TIME BY HES OWN

Ah! The Oracle vs. The Frenchman vs. The Architect... The Id, the Ego and the Superego. Neo confronts the prime elements of the A.I. A test. He is being tested and he has confronted personally the 4 elements of existance. He has superhuman powers now. No one else has them and the A.I. has manifested itself as all of these psychological allogorical figures. The last was the most difficult... the "door of light" and the most difficult psychological manifestation of the A.I. - The Architect. His access to the next higher level of the A.I. was with a key which is the extension of the Keymaster.

Was it the purpose of the Architect to put Neo on the next evolutionary plan of the Matrix A.I. thus taking the Matrix itself to a higher evolutionary level of expression? All things "living" must evolve? Is Neo the key to that evolution of the A.I.?

Exiting door left... what evolutionary purpose does this actually have for Neo, humanity, and more importantly... the A.I.?

Still over-complicating.

It is complicated because the story is complicated. It may well turn out that Wachowski Inc. has made it so that this Matrix universe is a world within a world within a world. That's what makes it so fascinatingly complicated. Look at all the elements that they introduced there. They are not random but very intricate and complex events... the Oracle, the Architect, the Keymaster, the Agents, Rogue Agents, and various other things. There is nothing simple going on there. Neo is almost like a free roaming vapor that is not so free but moving from one level to the next ever higher with new powers revealed with every transcendance. That is why I think the brothers read Carlos Castaneda.

Also the Architect said to Neo that he will not see him again because by going through that door Neo moves to the next level. The next "person" he meets will be on a wholly different order and level.

Everyone (oracle, architect, meri... french guy) all know whats going to happen. Can they see the future? No. They have all been through this before and know what should happen. All previous "the ones" returned to the code... Neo did not. Now the control the machines like so much is gone (to me it didn't look like the architect was too please that neo was choosing the other door). Agent Smith is now a virus (which he accused humans of being in the first movie... irony). My guess is the machines and humans go to battle in and out of the Matrix and in the end all that left are people/program hybrids the live together like man and machine were meant to... the next step in evolution if you will. The best thing about this movie is it left a lot of questions, and not just about what will happen next.

i agree,

it would seem neo is being led on a journey of discovery. For instance, in the first movie he meets the oracle she puts him on a path to so something that has never been done before and face the agents. He does this at the federal building and frees morph.

That path also leads him to fight an agent one-on-one, again he wins something that was never done.

Next he is killed and is resurected than totally kills an agent, never done.
(are we starting to see the pattren then hold on i got more.)

We later find neo waiting to hear word from the oracle again in m2.
In the first movie she led him to discover himself now he must discover the matrix. From the oracle he is led to the french dude. From there he meets the keymaster. From there he meets the archiutect. He then discovers his new powers.

The past 2 movies have been basically man vs. himself, and man vs. society. Meaning first one he had to find himself and second he had to find and beat the whole system.

I am very excited to see what he cand do and will do next. And to see where his path takes him. "The path of the one is made by the many. If one fails then we will all fail." I'm sure that line wasn't in the movie and game for nothing.

Yes the Architect didn't look too pleased, but smug as well. Why? Because Neo chose to save one life instead of saving a community by choosing 16 females and 7 males for future breeding? That would be the "common path" in the eyes of the Architect to choose one person. The Altruistic path, or the sacrificial path would be to choose the community survival.

Btw, Helmut Bakaitis did an excellent job acting the part of the Architect. He was perfection there... intense eyes, stone faced... he has an aura that was perfect for the role.

i don't think the arch. knew what neo was going to do. For instance the oracle said that they can see the end of the path but beyond that they can't know.

The arch. knew neo's path ended with him but he couldn't know the choice. He could guess and reason. The 5 before neo chose the entire civilization. Neo was the first to do otherwise. He might have known when neo started to make the choice, the whole line about reaction to love.

But i doubt he knew from the begining because if he did i cant see why he would let the one be someone who would fall in love and throw away everyone else. This wouldn't be the first time he was wrong either. He said trinity would die and there was nothing neo could do about it when in fact neo did bring her back to life.

The fact is he is to smart for his own good. He keeps overlooking obvious things for normal people. That is why his first matricies didn't work and why it took the oracle to figure out why. He is not all knowing and he dosen't know what neo is going to do. CHOICE.

Could be that is what the Architect WANTS Neo to think and know. He knows all too well that Neo is the random element and not a true rogue program. He has been expected. There is a certain magic in the number 6. What that magic is will be determined in MATRIX REVOLUTIONS. The thing is that the Architect is a part of the A.I. that builds or "creates" while the Oracle analyses and makes deductions. The Architect Neo will never see again. That present manifestation is done with. Neo moves to do whatever it is he is meant to do. The Matrix itself continues and probably in the end Neo becomes part of the A.I.'s higher functions. The old "keep your friends close, but keep your 'enemies' closer".

Maybe in time Neo becomes the Architect.

Complicated it may be but only as an interaction of relatively simple concepts. I think you will find it is all a hell of a lot simpler than you have been trying to make out. You deliberately make life more complex by assuming the Architect lies.

The most effective and dangerous lies are the ones buried within the truth. Disguised so ingeniously that the listener wouldn't even know it's a lie. Both the Oracle and the Architect "lied" in their own fashion as a prod to move Neo along. I love the look in Helmut Bakaitis' eyes at the end..."triumph".

That is still, more than likely, more complex than it needs be. The effect is FAR greater when the Architect tells cold, clinical truth.

i agree with Ushgarak,

if your arch. is all knowing there is no reason to lie to neo. And the oracle never lied about anything.

1. She told morph he'd find the one.
2. Told trinity she would fall in love with the one.
3. Told neo either he or morph would die. Neo died.

The only person that "lied" was the arch. I think he didn't mean to lie he just didn't know neo could do anything about trinity when she died. Neo broke the rules of the program which he can do being the one, and the arch. being a program could not have forseen that.

No, that wasn't a lie. He was right, Trinity did die. But Neo brought her back after death just as he was.

That is also very true. But that is for us and Neo to discern. How do we actually know he is telling the cold clinical truth. Deception can occur with the truth. The absolute truth the Architect told was that Zion will be destroyed and that everyone was going to die... i.e. the A.I. system is about to be backed up and rebooted. He can save Trinity in either case regardless which door he goes through. The "lie" is that he has a choice in the grand scheme of things. The "choice" in itself was a deception.

He DID have a choice, though, or as the Oracle pointed out he would have been able to see if Trinity died.

BTW, the Architect said they had become exceedingly good at destroying Zion. But it was not a certainity in the same way that Trinity dying was.

thats a good point i didn't think of that (should have though).

I still say they can't tell what neo is going to do because
1. He dosen't have to follow the same rules as the other programs. So the programs can't even imagine what he can do. A program can only do what it is told or knows.

2. There is still free choice. The arch said it himself the matrix needs it or it fales. The very nature of free choice is that you decide you can't be told what to do. At the most these all knowing programs can only see the diffrent paths that are open.

Like morpheus said in the movie "I can only show you the door. You have to walk through it."

Ah! Withholding of vital information. Never give too much and let the listener mull it over. Roll it around on the tongue for a spell. Perhaps Neo heard and saw something in what the Architect said. He is not human so there is no body language but the face spoke volumes. The Architect was pleased. The gleam in the eye that was ever so slight and the infinitessimal smile on the lips at the end. Neo was actually doing exactly what was expected. That we will find out in the next movie no doubt. Humanity changes, Zion dies but Neo moves on.

you are reading way to deep into that. I think you are missing the whole point of free choice. and why would the arch. want the end off all people which is the machines power supply. And if for some reason he did why wait until the 6th time why not the 3rd or 4th or wait for the 7th that sounds like a good number. Again i say he didn't know you can't know someones descion. You might make an educated guess but again he didn't know or else it wouldn't be "free" choice now would it.

The truth of all truths here is that there really isn't any "free" choice. All choices are made in conjunction with the choices of others depending on all circumstances. Remember also we and they are told that humans were the sole source of power. Any machine and artificial mind as advanced and powerful as the A.I. would have found alternate power sources and adapted itself to it's usage. Geothermal, for instance. The surface of the earth has not been seen in a very long time by humans. They assume it is covered in darkness, but cannot be very certain. The scene we saw in the first movie was taken when. When did any human last saw the surface of the earth and the sky. No life form on earth cease to exist in total. Even on Venus there are light patches no matter how small. The A.I. would have found a way to get back the sun for its power uses. All this information is not necessary for Neo to know. All he needed to know was what was needed for him to "choose" a door. The Architect gave him ONLY what was required.

Right, look, we are told the humans are the machine's only practical source of power, and that is the set-up of the film. You say they WOULD have found other sources... but the set-up of the movie is that they have NOT. So stop assuming things that are outside the concept of the film.

BTW, Morpheus has seen the human fields, which are on the surface, and also the Osiris was on the surface when it saw the diggers, and it is still dark, the sky still 'scorched'. Captain Thaddeus even talked of the surface as something he had seen several times before; it is not that rare.

The AI has NOT FOUND ANY SUCH WAY.

Please God, stop making this more complex than it is. You are virtually inventing a different film. It really is quoite conceited of you to assume one of the basic lynchpins of the WHOLE scenario is false.

We have not seen the last movie yet so we have to assume all kinds of things within the boundaries of that universe the Wachowski Brothers created. LOL!!!

FIRE AWAY! THIS IS GREAT!!!

They have been on the surface yes. But within the boundaries of the "make believe" world the A.I. created. Why? To hold the humans hostage for an eternity. Feeding off them, using them.

Well, they have already stretched that point far enough with the Architect's revelation that they COULD survive without the humans, albeit clealry not very happily.

Ok! Ok! Good. But it goes further than that. Ultimate reality can kill the humans just as quickly as the sentinels. This highly evolved and convoluted world created by the A.I. is for a reason other than using the humans as a power source. Why do you think that is? For survival of another kind. As protection against the humans? Why?

It's there because it has a practical purpose and keeps the humans safely enslaved, is all.

i say you are really making this way to compicated.

You can not keep assuming that the programs are lying to neo. In fact that isn't even possible since a program can't lie. That is a human trait. Programs do what they are programed to do. The arch fucntion is to get the code from the one and re-insert it. He is not there to play games with a human.

And how can you say that there is no free choice. You miss the entire theme of the whole triliogy when you say that. Since movie one it has been about choice. Neo chooses to save morph, to fight agent Smith, to believe he's the one.

In the second movie Trinity chooses to enter the matrix even after neo warned her. Persophene chose to help them even after her husband refused. To overlook choice makes it seem like you watched the movies with your eyes closed and your ears covered. It is totally stupid.

But to be fair you have your opinion and may turn out in the end to be right but i say that is highly unlikely and i desperately hope our two brothers are more clever than that.

But the A.I. knew that Trinity was going to enter. It knows that Neo can "see" the future as it has created it. Remember, this is a world within a world within a dream. It knows exactly what is to occur, but Neo doesn't realize this yet. A lie can be a powerful way of hiding the ultimate truth. Humans cannot survive "ultimate truth". Neo is being groomed for it. As more and more power to do the extraordinary becomes very clear and evident to him then the closer he will get to that point in his "evolution" that the A.I. wants him before taking him to the next step... "the creator must join with V'ger".

Im with you mac: I belive that neo is going to fight his cause coz he is his ownbeliver. He dont have to hear the orecle or even the architect hes gonna know what to do by her own instics coz that was his choice.

He listened the Oracle at first but he really didnt belive her a lot coz he decided to save neo. Then he decided to fight the agents whenever the crew told him to run. And later the architect said that Trinitys gonna die and Neo prefered to save here; he didnt care about the architect said

So in M3 hes going to FIGHT in big words

No doubt. It will be the fight of all fights, but will the Architect's words bear any fruit in Neo's mind? I called the Architect the trickster. The trickster is one of the names for the Devil. I said that 6 is a magic number but it is also the number of the Devil. Humanity is about the reach the 7th realm in the existance of the Matrix. Where does Neo go from there? Does he meet another "personality" from the A.I.? Or does he "talk" to the A.I. itself?

"The creator must merge with V'Ger!"

MW - I agree with most of your opinions, but i have to say that the world within a world within a dream idea (while i can see where you get it), has a very high probability of being wrong.

Also, did no body pick up on the fact that the programs do not know exactly what will happen. They have known what Neo will do up till a certain point. Most of the time they know that he will do something big, but they do not know for sure how he will do it.

It doesn't matter. I am tossing around possibilities. THE MATRIX wouldn't be the first movie to have such scenarios or suspected scenarios. But it makes for exhilarating conversation and ideas. How do we know our own lives aren't a dream within a dream within a dream?

In fact if you pay attention to the dialouge as well as the action and sex then you will hear Smith say that the previous "the ones" did not do something that Neo has done. Also, the fact that Smith was in charge of handling things until Neo came along changes things this time around.

Yes they were watching him since the begining

Possibilities yes, I agree that they could be possible. But the whole idea of Neo being different is what makes this time (the sixth time) special.

He has what they needed.

not seein the architect as the creator. he's a bak up program surely, another defence. the creator was a human rite? if so and if sion itself isnt another matrix then mustn't the creator be there or aboard a ship

Remember the movie The One (jet li) there was 125 yous in the galaxies and if you killed the other yous; you became stronger and invensible.

I totally agree, I believe that the reason the architect looked so smug is that he needed Neo becouse he has become "bored" maybe something is failing or just isnt working as planned. But i do believe that, While they knew simply from probability that Neo would "occur", they do not know exactly what he will or can do.

Nothing of the kind. The Architect is smug because it is his nature by programming to look smug. It is a tease. It is a test. Just like all the images of Neo along the walls were a tease. When he said that he won't be there anymore is because his task is completed as far as dealing with Neo is concerned. Neo moves to the next level.

possibly...

Ohhhhhh maybe he goes to the next Matrix where neos cant find him. Coz he sounded very sure about that he wont be there . But i think neos gonna find him and hes gonna break his legs in three pieces

umm, it is something to be considered. I suppose.

Yes im really mean it coz when neos get mad they most to be scare. Im sure neo will come back to the bilding and brake his legs or codes or something he made of. It almost caused the dead of trinity, his True Love

best trinity sounding feisty! but again he may be so sure he aint gona be there coz as soon as neo walks through either of the doors, that is his function as a programme over and done. his sounding so sure could be an attempt to convince neo to not go to trinity coz there is a further place where archi is off to. another fiendish plot!

No if Neo said he will come back is for something

he dont no he can come bak though. he dont really av a feckin clue where he is anywho.

hes got a cause to fight now

what i dont get is if the system is basicly the matrix then how can neo's choice of door destroy it and possibly the whole human race. i understand it if everyone inside the matrix gets destroyed but zion is not in the matrix thus cannot be destroyed. and how can neo rebuild it by choosing the right door.its just confusing. u have to admit that the fight between smith and neo is good.

What destroys the matrix is not the door itself, but what lies beyond the door. Zion will be destroyed by the robot army wich also, is not in the matrix. The choice given to Neo was to enter the right door and "reboot" the matrix or enter the left door and save Trinity thus negating an important step in keeping the matrix going.

zion is going to be destroyed no matter what door he picked. what the architect meant by save zion is that if Neo would have chose the other door he would be given the opportunity to rebuild zion with 23 other people of his choosing. though it would have ruined the story, it would be interesting to see who he picked.

in that case, by saying that they are getting very efficiant at it, maybe he is saying that all of the previous "ones" also chose the left door.

yes, they all chose to rebuild zion and save all the people in the matrix

no wait, they all chose the right door, the one to reboot the matrix. i get my doors mixed up, and my pills, left right blue red, i cant keep which one is which.

do you htink that he would choose himself as one of the few?

absolutely, i would. plus the other guys that were "the one" chose themselves. remember in the first film morpheus talking to Neo about a dude that use to be able to bend the matrix to his will. well i assume he is talking about the previous "one" and if he hadnt of chosen himself i doubt morpheus would have known about him.

I find the whole thing confusing, i need someone to explain it simply.
(If that's possible)

Yes, the One chooses himself., He chooses seven men and sixteen women-that is two women per man if the One is man number 8.

Actually The One chooses 7 men and 16 women for the restocking of Zion. It has to be more women than men for greater genetic differentiation and speedier population recovery. Even in nature there are more females than males for the same reasons.

Remember there are 24 (7 men plus Neo=8) and 16 women. Two women for a man. there r 2 women for Neo : Trinity and ......

Regardless. There are always to be more women than men for speedy repopulation. That is why the number was picked. There is finite space. But the crop has to be replenished. There is also the idea that there has been some genetic manipulation that changes humanity in some advanced way for the benefit of the A.I.

do you think there ever was a "one" that was a woman? that would be kind of cool, especially if she was hot!!!

No. She would be a total distraction to the purpose.

HEY???

quote:
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Originally posted by Tevesh
yes. actually a friend of mine suggested that to me. i dismissed it thinking that he'd be way to old. besides, wasn't he supposed to start zion? so why would he be here.

I just saw the first movie, and Morpheus says that the year is closer to 2199. AI was created in the early part of the 21th century. So even if we take a 200 year time span, it's still only 200/6 = about 33.33 years on average. now that's pretty feasable. Maybe we'll find out what Saraph is all about in the next movie.
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33 years.... that was Jesus age. So every 33 years the one died and resurrect agin and again. But EVERY 33 years.

why would a female version be distracting to the purpose?

Neo its been the One since the begining. Thats why the architect knew his reactions/emotions

Well Turin she will be a distraction. Females are like a lightening rod or a magnet for the male. He will be distracted by her and in some cases enslaved by her simply because of sex. The One who is female and a hottie too? Disaster. The A.I. wants someone to carry out its "directives" without the added baggage of sexuality, or an overabundance of sexual power. Neo doesn't have that. Therefore he is the perfect tool for what the A.I. wants. Females are not free because they have the added baggage of having babies and caring for them and the added baggage of having males running after her. Look at Niobe. Two guys basically fighting over her.

true, but the architect talks about each "the one" has controls on them that caused them to choose the door to reboot. in Neos case it was trinity, which was a bad chose by the architect, but with a woman she would love it when guys fight over her (the all do, lol) so she would want to preserve and reboot the matrix, but she also wouldnt want to share her man in the rebuilding of zion, so maybe it would be a bad idea to have a woman "one".

Actually women don't really like it when guys fight over them. It's animalistic and very counterproductive. Especially if the woman don't like either man. I had that situation once and I left both of them. HA! But anyway, a really beautiful woman as THE ONE would be counterproductive. Men are a little more free in their living and thinking by nature.

Why do people keep saying neo has been the one all of the previous times. There is absolutely no evidence to go with that. I know the argument the screens show his prior reactions. I think the screens are a tangible expression of how the arch. thinks. He considers all of the possiblites. The screens are just there for the audience and neo to see that he "knows" all of neos different responses.

I agree with you mac, nicely put.

mauls woman, i guess in the least it makes you feel wanted when dudes fight over you, and i have known some that really enjoyed it. you must be a better person then most women, lol. i keep that attitude i'll never get past the first date with any one, lol. i get what you mean though about her being a distraction.

Lol!!! Turn, a perspective view of sex and power. A position of power for a woman is good. But she can't be extraordinarily beautiful or better yet...overly sexy. That is a major distraction. If she is a common looking person, or even abit homely or better yet older or old, would be better because there will be no consentration on her sexuality.

Anyway, to answer Mac, I've never said that Neo was THE ONE all the time and in all the other incarnations. He is The One now. The others are long dead.

MW does not speak for all women some of whom LOVE being fought over.

Another thing... it would be better for the One to be a man because the Architect's grilling of The One would have put many many obstacles in the path of a female The One. Most likely she would have a lover like Neo does, but there is the possibility that she would have children. BIG PROBLEM. She would NOT want to see her children die. It would be much much harder for a female THE ONE.

yes but how does rebooting the matrix give him the chance to remake zion

It doesn't. That is something he is given the chance to do seperately. But obviously he cannot select new human subjects from the Matrix for Zion if they are all dead, can he?

The Architect told Neo that he will have to choose 23 humans to repopulate Zion. While that is happening the Matrix would jettison dead and dying humans still in their pods and reduce them to liquid food for the still healthy ones. The system would be backed up and more upgraded programs and humans will be installed per the A.I.'s instructions. Of course Neo does not fully realize this yet and the Architect gave him only half truths.

There is no 'of course' about it.

There is. But Neo hostility toward the Architect is understandable and real enough. He was given a "choice" between Trinity's life and the lives of all of Zion. He understands that he is a very important piece in the equation, but he is not fully aware of the entirety of his "importance". So, of course, he is unaware.

No, there is NOT an 'of course'. Once again, that is arrogant assumption. You do not KNOW it. You cannot PROVE it. You just THINK it. So that is not 'of course'.

It is an "of course" in an intellectual way. Doesn't have to be the true outcome of the film. But the joy of "expanded universe" assumptions until we are told otherwise. Majority of the information will not be told us in the films anyway so it is lots of fun in these intellectual leaps.

Plus the Wachowski Brothers may have something up their sleeves for REVOLUTIONS that will completely blow our minds and that is the best of all.

well personally i think it is definitely a correct assumption that neo does not know everything about the matrix or what is going to happen in the matrix, so of course does aply. if he did know everything why would he even be bothering going about this game that the architect has set in place to control "the one".

I think we will find alot out in M3 about the control the machines really have over the matrix and Neo. The Architect could be using the choice as another form of control. By giving Neo the choice, it makes Neo feel like he is in control, while the choice is loaded. They load one side to make the other side look small. Neo choose the less loaded side and I think they(the machines) don't know what will happen. How can you know what will happen, if it hasn't already happened?

A LOADED CHOICE!!! Filacaduscha!! I love it! You are very correct. It is most definitely a LOADED CHOICE. And it isn't a choice at all because like you said so aptly... it's loaded. The Keymaker said that the doors have "explosives". Any decision like the ones our friends in the story have to make are dangerous ones regardless.

Thank you!!!

Could we please stop saying their are no choices. The movie states it very simply that there has to be "free" choice or the matrix fales. It dosen't say half choices or considerations it has to be free choices. Now can we put this to rest. To say anything else would be like you are ignoring movie facts.

The reason why I say there is "no free choice" is because either way the outcome is the same. That is not choice. All the choices have been already made long ago. Neo is the latest in the long line of Chosen individuals. A true choice means an open situation. This is a closed situation. All the slots have been filled and he only had to "choose" his mate. But the system already knew that Trinity is his choice.

Talking about choice... the A.I. chose Trinity for Neo. Something about the genetic pattern is desirable.

Wrong!

Fisrt off the choices weren't the same

Choice 1. If he would have went through the right door just Zion would be destroyed. Humans in the matri would still be alive.

Choice 2. If he chooses the door on the left than zion falls and matrix crashes.

So to start you are wrong about both choices being the same. But than even thats not true. This has never happened before. It is a new move for a chosen one. Therefore the machines can't no what will happen next.

N-e-ways who is to say that zion will fall. From what we have seen in the movies and trailers the rebels have a chance to win this war. So for you to say that both choices are the same is like saying they lose either way. If that were so why would they make a third movie just for them to lose. Why not just have him pick the other door.

No wrong. Just a matter of perception. Even in real life for us we perceive we have a choice and control of our lives whereas in true reality... we don't. But we act as if we actually do individually. The greater reality usually nullifies alot of our "choices". You hear it all the time. So it is the same with the inhabitants of Zion. They perceive they have a choice in survival and surmounting the incredible odds posed by the A.I. Zion will be destroyed and nearly every human in it. All except for 23 individuals. You got to also realize that the A.I. will continue along with the human's incarcerated within it. Zion is a community of 250,000 souls. It's destruction will not incapacitate the A.I. nor the matrix itself. It has billions of people in it. Zion is only 250,000. REalistically speaking there may be many "Zions" around the globe. The Zion we are seeing is only ONE.

The Architect is expecting the Sentinels will destroy Zion. We'll have to see about that...

Did you see Minority Report? The point is: MOST people will do the expected... We will see what happens in Revolutions.

OR if you have a good reason.

(I'll stop now - )

Tuur, the Sentinels will destroy Zion. That is the program that has been played out for 200 years. Now there can be a change in the program and Zion is particially taken down. Remember Neo is more advanced than the other 5 chosen in the past. The Architect/A.I. was pleased to see that. It means that the 23 people chosen to "repopulate" Zion will be of a higher order than those that went before. Most likely Morpheus will pair with Niobe. As for the other 23, it will be up to Neo. They too were chosen by the A.I. for their exceptional genetic qualities that would be beneficial for the A.I. However the end comes to Zion it will come because that is what has been the program.

Our friend THE SERPENT understood what I am saying and he is also very very correct.

As for the comparison to MINORITY REPORT, irrelevant. Why? Because Minority Report deals with absolute real life and not a big artificial intelligence maintaining and supply billions of human minds with a dreamstate that they think is "real".

on the contrary. I believe minority report is a very good movie to comapare with the matrix.

1. They both deal with the future already being known. Thus the people are to go with what has been "seen" to happen.

2. Both movies have the main character go against what was pre-ordained.

The problem with people being able to know the future is a very basic one though it leads to many compley scenarios. If i know what is supposed to happen in the future and i change it how could that have been the future. It is a paradox.

ex: I have a premintion that i will be hit by a car on the way to school today. I know what day it is because i see the newspaper in my prem. Now if i "see" this is about to happen, what if i decide to stay home. Then i have changed the future, thus what i saw earlier could not have been the future because it never came to pass. Very complicated

Ah FUTURE SENSE! Well future sense is very complex and complicated because there is more than one road. The theory is that there are many roads fanning out into the future. Many roads have the same future but different ways of stopping that "future". We as individuals choose one of those roads. Another problem with future sense is that we don't see all of the variables leading to that "future". We don't see all the random elements that occur that creates that certain future. We act on what we can see.

In the MINORITY REPORT the three in the pool don't always agree with some futures. But those that "can be prevented" the perpetrators are arrested and "incarcerated" for life. In the Matrix all of humanity is incarcerated for eternity, so to speak.

In THE MATRIX, the Architect told Neo what is going to happen. Zion is destroyed. But Neo is given a "choice" on the outcome of the destruction. Neo "chooses" which door he'd rather go through. He is not prevented. That is the difference between MATRIX and MINORITY REPORT.

Choices can be predetermined, but the consequences can not be seen. For example, I choose to drink a couple of beers and drive. That was my choice. On the way home I hit another car, killing the other driver and not even hurting me. I when making the choice didn't forsee the consequence, or felt it didn't relate to me. If the consequences are ignored then they can't be controlled. It leaves your hands. Neo knew the consequences that the Architect laid out to him, he choose the other. But just like my example what happens if one of the consequences doesn't happen, what happens if I don't hit anyone that night. My point is Neo ingnored the consequences of his choice, but what if one of the consequences doesn't happen. i.e. Zion isn't destroyed?

I could kiss you.

You have just proven my point in all of the threads. I want you to think about what you just said your two beliefs are not compatiable. You need to make a change.

You have been stating that everyones future is destined. They have no choice. Everything will happen the way it has been forseen by the oracle and arch. You state that neo cant change his fate by making a choice.

But just now you have agreed with my whole argument. You can change the future with choice. In fact it is impossible to know the future.

As i posted somewhere earlier the oracle and arch. can only see the diffrent paths that are open. Neither one of them can see the future. They can make an educated guess on what people might do. But they do not know.

Thus every choice or decsion is relevant. Even if it were loaded ( which i still say it wasn't, it was free) it would change the future. So i say the arch. had no idea what neo would do. He might have had a hunch, but there was and still is no definite way to know someones decisions.

I still have NO idea why some people confuse free will with being able to do absolutely whatever you want, ever. Free will is, in fact, the ability to choose between options as presented- the countless billions of options you have each second, but just because these options have limits does NOT mean you do not have free will! Such thinking can only be based on a huge misapprehension of what free will is.

Now, this is again going off-topic. Does anyone have anything meaningful to say on whether the Architect was lying or not?

You are right, it is free choice, but When I say loaded, the architect and oracle know the different paths that are open, so they load the side they want Neo to chose. See, their knowledge of what could happen allows them to try and weigh on Neo.
Look at parents and kids, alot of times the will load things to get kids to do things. If you do this.... I will let you do this....
There is the free choice, but they make choosing the other side a lot less pleasurable.
Like the architect.... This door, save and start a new Zion, the other door Death of Zion and Trinity.
You see the architect was loading the choice to make Neo feel he had to choose the door to save Zion. Yes Neo didn't make that choice, Trinity didn't die, but that doesn't mean that other consequences couldn't come because of this.

yes,

I think he was telling the truth. I see no reason for him to lie. In fact i don't even know if he would be able to seeing as he is a program. Computers don't lie.

His purpose was to present neo with a choice. For him to lie would have tainted the choice, which i believe would be against his purpose. For that reason i say he was telling the truth.

I agree 100%

But like you said.. there are random elements in your choice to drink and drive. There is no guarantee that you will hit someone and kill someone. There is no guarantee that teh police will pull you over. There is also a chance that you will get home fine. The true outcome in some cases you cannot know because of random elements.

Neo is taking the Architects advice that Zion will be destroyed if he saves Trinity, but it will also be destroyed if he goes through the door on his right and saves it at the same time by choosing 23 individuals to repopulate it. So in the reality of the Matrix, Neo is not truly making a choice that will change anything. In both scenarios Trinity dies and Zion is destroyed. But then, of course, that is what he is being told. The A.I. was solely interested in his thought processes concerning this situation. He made a different decision than the other 5 chosen. He went out stage left.

EDITED- off-topic posts no longer allowed.

You keep assuming that Zion will fall in the 3rd movie. For all we know they find a way to fight and beat the machines. Again i say the arch. saw a certain path. If you leave left Trinity will die and Zion will fall. Well that is the most likely outcome but that dosen't mean it will happen. You said yourself their are random elements. Maybe they find some giant EMP that kills all machines. We don't know what can happen and neither does the arch.

The architect did tell the truth, but it manipulated it to his liking. The architect was baseing what he said to Neo in what he thought would lead to the most control. Look at what he said...
1. the first 5 had chosen this door, always. Neo should follow their example.
2. Death of all mankind
3. Death of Trinity.

The archietect was trying to manipulate Neo by using the things that matter most to him, and making it look grim.
He is loading the question to try and control.

technically the arch can't know that it will be death to all mankind.

I have a question to pose to you who believe neos choice had no relevance. If you can disuade my argument i will concied.

What if neo wakes up from his coma and decides to go for a walk outside the ship? While walking he finds a button that says push for a giant EMP. This in turn kills all machines. Than the arch. would be wrong about all mankind dying.

My point is he can not know what will happen next their are to many possiblities.

Oh yes, the Architect absolutely knows. He is a manifestation of the A.I. just like The Oracle, and the A.I. has created the entire scenario. The question is, what is Neo going to do. Smith is involved in this as well. Well he tie up Neo to the point that Zion is bereft of his help? His input? Smith is the random element. Another thing. The EMP cannot be used when members of Zion are jacked into the Matrix. They will short circuit and "die". Not quite a random element, but definitely something to consider.

The entire scenario is the dreamstate the A.I. created. The humans are trapped within it, but there are levels. Neo will move to a higher level if he "survives" this massive and dangerous encounter.

Finally, all of humankind does not die. Only Zion "dies"... 250,000 individuals. Humankind is numbered in the billions across the planet. All subjugated.

He maynot beable to know but by saying that, he was trying to manipulate the feelings of Neo. The machines seem to be doing a great job of playing with feelings.

you are right, each day is full of new possibilities, but his choice was made. That doesn't mean that Zion will or will not be destroyed. That can only bedetermined by the people in which it involves and their resolve to win or lose.

My question is how can the the architect know, if he only created the matrix? He is basing his knowledge of the first five anomolies? How then could he know the outcome already, if it hasn't happened already and if they are not inside the matrix, how can he control them? They are not plugged in to his will. So therefore he can't control them or know if there is only the one matrix?

I totally 100% agree.

This is new to the arch. New scenarios new x's and y'z. He as never seen nor needed to think about this equation. And even then it is outside of his realm the matrix. It is in the real world. Where he has no power

Of course that is what he told Neo. Neo needed a point of reference on human terms and so the A.I. appeared before him as a human... The Architect. It probably used is visage of the actual human who pioneered or oversaw the development of the A.I. 200 years ago. The same for the Oracle, but she never said who she truly was. Morpheus said that she is very very old. clue. The Architect is very very old. Long deceased. The A.I. used the visage of its "maker" to talk to Neo. Give him clues and crumbs and talk rapidly and in half riddles to spur him on. Neo is smarter than the other 5 chosen. Plus the Architect appealed to Neo's emotional side. His mildly selfish side. He is not as altruistic as the other chosen. He chose his lover. But, of course, there is more to all of this. Neo had listen extremely closely to what the Architect had to say to him. He chose stage left because of the Architect. Neo knew there was more. In the end maybe he will realize that the Architect and the Oracle are one and the same... the A.I.