Count Dooku & Asajj Ventress vs. Wrath II & Scourge

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



|King Joker|
Everyone is in their prime; battle takes place on Dathomir.

Emperordmb
As of right now I'm thinking team one has both the weak link and the MVP, so I'm not really sure. I'll have to think more about this one and comment again sometime later.

Vexing fight Joker thumb up

|King Joker|
thx daddy

DarthAnt66
Team 2.

TheDarthBoy
Well Dooku and Ventress dont have synergy since its at there primes end.

Assuming DD (Ventress) and ROTS Dooku I dont see them getting along to fight Wrath 2 and Scourge.

Perhaps they can but its a long shot.

carthage
Scourge is garbage

Team 1 handily

The Ellimist
Dooku might solo tbh.

Syndicate
Team 1 handily.

SunRazer
Nobody solos, but Dooku beats Wrath and Ventress takes Scourge.

Total Warrior
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nobody solos, but Dooku beats Wrath and Ventress takes Scourge. This, tbh

The Ellimist
I dunno, I take Wrath II & Scourge to be a collectively less impressive team than Anakin and Obi Wan. Against the latter duo, Dooku is able to neutralize Kenobi before ultimately losing to Anakin; there's no reason why he couldn't do it against this pair, except that the remaining member won't be Skywalker.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nobody solos, but Dooku beats Wrath and Ventress takes Scourge.

|King Joker|
What's the reasoning for all you fcukers who didn't give reasons?

carthage
Because Scourge has show nothing that places him above Qui Gon in skill, other than a vague "300 years of experience", struggling with security droids, getting stomped by Nyriss, and killing a post-prime Sith lord/two trainees.

He sucks, and Wrath is inferior to Dooku in everything

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Everyone is in their prime.
Wrath solos.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by carthage
Because Scourge has show nothing that places him above Qui Gon in skill, other than a vague "300 years of experience", struggling with security droids, getting stomped by Nyriss, and killing a post-prime Sith lord/two trainees.

He sucks, and Wrath is inferior to Dooku in everything
Vague 300 years of experience? He have 1000 (Jedi and Sith) kills under his belt in the span of those 300 years. And his victims are implied to be powerful and ambitious enough to be noticed by the Emperor and targeted for assassination.

I don't think that the likes of Asajj Ventress would even register to the Emperor.

The Emperor's Wrath was able to affect Hero of Tython with his powers (in impressive manner) and stalemate him during the duel. I don't think that Ventress can hang with the likes of Hero of Tython.

Emperor's Wrath II have more credibility in combat then Count Dooku.

Your assumptions are ridiculous.

The Ellimist
Carthage vs. Legend?

Aurbere
Scourge had an average of 3 kills a year. That's pretty sad in comparison to Ventress and her record. I think she could rack up 1000 kills in a few centuries. A lot of people could.

Emperordmb
Raskta accrued that many in a single two year campaign LOL

Syndicate
Originally posted by Aurbere
Scourge had an average of 3 kills a year. That's pretty sad in comparison to Ventress and her record. I think she could rack up 1000 kills in a few centuries. A lot of people could.

She already killed 21 Jedi within 2-3 years of the Clone Wars. This means at the least she would have been able to kill 2100 Jedi if she'd lived as long. More then twice that of Scourge's number.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Syndicate
She already killed 21 Jedi within 2-3 years of the Clone Wars. This means at the least she would have been able to kill 2100 Jedi if she'd lived as long. More then twice that of Scourge's number. Assuming the Clone Wars lasted 300 years. erm

|King Joker|
Meh, point is Ventress could probably amount at least the same amount of kills Scourge acquired if she was in his shoes.

Aurbere
Originally posted by Syndicate
She already killed 21 Jedi within 2-3 years of the Clone Wars. This means at the least she would have been able to kill 2100 Jedi if she'd lived as long. More then twice that of Scourge's number.

T'was what I was referring to.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Aurbere
Scourge had an average of 3 kills a year. That's pretty sad in comparison to Ventress and her record. I think she could rack up 1000 kills in a few centuries. A lot of people could.
You are overlooking greater ground realities.

Emperor's Wrath killed so many during peace-time. And he was sent after greatest threats only.

If Emperor's Wrath was encouraged to kill every individual (he could) at will, then his kill count would have been significantly greater.

1000 - 1100 kill count during peace-time and that too of greatest threats is stupendous.

Aurbere
Scourge lived in a time with millions of Sith tho. Clearly the pool of victims is significantly larger that what Ventress was dealing with.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Aurbere
Scourge lived in a time with millions of Sith tho. Clearly the pool of victims is significantly larger that what Ventress was dealing with.
Majority of those Sith did not threaten the Emperor.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't think that the likes of Asajj Ventress would even register to the Emperor. Palpatine was concerned with her power enough to order Dooku to assassinate her. erm

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Aurbere
Scourge lived in a time with millions of Sith tho. Clearly the pool of victims is significantly larger that what Ventress was dealing with.
"Millions."
*snicker*

Aurbere
And uh, who are these "greatest threats" that Scourge killed? They apparently aren't as big a threat as the Jedi Grand Master or anyone in Council level range.

Aurbere
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Millions."
*snicker*

SWTOR Encyclopedia tbh. At least, Legend is of the opinion there are millions. Why not take advantage of that?

Aurbere
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Majority of those Sith did not threaten the Emperor.

So who did?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Aurbere
SWTOR Encyclopedia tbh. At least, Legend is of the opinion there are millions. Why not take advantage of that?
There's no way millions of Sith exist in TOR, with them getting shit stomped by droids and one planet's city's worth of Force users. Don't even entertain that.

Syndicate
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are overlooking greater ground realities.

He used it! He used his word! XD

Aurbere
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's no way millions of Sith exist in TOR, with them getting shit stomped by droids and one planet's city's worth of Force users. Don't even entertain that.

I don't actually believe there are millions.

SWTOR Encyclopedia is an objective source on these matters.

FreshestSlice
I said don't entertain that shit, Aurb. uhuh

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"I dictate what is and what is not canon by my opinions."-SiniousFreshest 2016

FreshestSlice
"I don't like a definite statement by the man himself" is now comparable to, "Propaganda is legit." Kys, Beni. Either that or explain how Zakuul defeated the Republic and the Empire, at the same time, when there are supposedly millions of Jedi and Sith.

Beniboybling
Right, an objective sourcebook is actually propaganda, and the codex is just diary entries. smile Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"I AM THE SOURCE MATERIAL!!!!"-SiniousFreshest 2016 As for your question, TOR era crap tier confirmed. rolling on floor laughing

FreshestSlice
How the **** is a sourcebook written from an in universe perspective objective? Use phoenix down and kill yourself again.

Beniboybling
"Sourcebooks aren't objective" I'll bear this in mind for the future. smile

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How the **** is a sourcebook written from an in universe perspective objective?
I'm starting to think Ant is right about you, Beni.

Beniboybling
My opinion of you I unchanged. smile

Nephthys
Originally posted by Aurbere
Scourge had an average of 3 kills a year. That's pretty sad in comparison to Ventress and her record. I think she could rack up 1000 kills in a few centuries. A lot of people could.

Originally posted by Syndicate
She already killed 21 Jedi within 2-3 years of the Clone Wars. This means at the least she would have been able to kill 2100 Jedi if she'd lived as long. More then twice that of Scourge's number.

Gosh, you think maybe being in a war actively fighting Jedi might have had something to do with that? As opposed to Scourge who doesn't participate in warfare outside of assassinating high priority targets? Hmm.

Originally posted by Aurbere
And uh, who are these "greatest threats" that Scourge killed? They apparently aren't as big a threat as the Jedi Grand Master or anyone in Council level range.

They're Jedi who "grew too powerful". I think its safe to say that a Jedi who Vitiate decides is too powerful is a pretty big deal. We don't know if he's killed any Grand Masters or Council members, but that he wasn't sent after any of the ones we've seen merely indicates they weren't considered a problem in need of a solution by Vitiate.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gosh, you think maybe being in a war actively fighting Jedi might have had something to do with that? As opposed to Scourge who doesn't participate in warfare outside of assassinating high priority targets? Hmm.



They're Jedi who "grew too powerful". I think its safe to say that a Jedi who Vitiate decides is too powerful is a pretty big deal. We don't know if he's killed an Grand Masters or Council members, but that he wasn't sent after any of the ones we've seen merely indicates they weren't considered a problem in need of a solution by Vitiate.

Given most of Ventress's confirmed kills occurred during missions and that she was referred to several times in both Legends and Canon as Dooku's personal assasin...

Aurbere
Originally posted by Nephthys


They're Jedi who "grew too powerful". I think its safe to say that a Jedi who Vitiate decides is too powerful is a pretty big deal. We don't know if he's killed any Grand Masters or Council members, but that he wasn't sent after any of the ones we've seen merely indicates they weren't considered a problem in need of a solution by Vitiate.

So clearly Satele, her Council buddies, and the Dark Council peeps we know are inferior to Scourge's victims. smile

Syndicate
Originally posted by Aurbere
So clearly Satele, her Council buddies, and the Dark Council peeps we know are inferior to Scourge's victims. smile

Lel. +1

Nephthys
Originally posted by Syndicate
Given most of Ventress's confirmed kills occurred during missions and that she was referred to several times in both Legends and Canon as Dooku's personal assasin...

Are you gonna finish that sentence or are you not even trying to make a point?

Originally posted by Aurbere
So clearly Satele, her Council buddies, and the Dark Council peeps we know are inferior to Scourge's victims. smile

Or Vitiate didn't give a shit because he was close to finishing his ritual and doing other things. Its said repeatedly that Vitiate has his attention elsewhere prior to and during the game. Also theres no need to kill the Dark Council members until they start getting too ambitious.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you gonna finish that sentence or are you not even trying to make a point?



Or Vitiate didn't give a shit because he was close to finishing his ritual and doing other things. Its said repeatedly that Vitiate has his attention elsewhere prior to and during the game. Also theres no need to kill the Dark Council members until they start getting too ambitious.

We don't even have confirmations that any of her Jedi kills occurred on the battlefield and given she was a Sith assassin first and foremost I doubt many of them did.

Also to address your response to Aurb it seems you're implying that random rebellious Sith were a bigger threat to his Empire then the Jedi Order or the Republic. :/

Syndicate
Getting to class. I'll let Aurb take it from here.

Nephthys
And?

Like, what's your point? Scourge was Vitiate's enforcer. His job was to protect the Emperor, keep the Dark Council in line, see to his interests and eliminate a very select set of targets when Vitiate wishes it. Ventress' job was to **** shit up. Obviously her more indiscriminate methods would lead to faster results.

Regardless, this is the completely wrong thing to be focusing on. The impressiveness isn't that Scourge "managed" to kill 1100 powerful opponents in 300 years. It's not a ****ing race. The quality comes from the fact that he's killed over a thousand goddamn opponents. That's insane in terms of combat experience. His abilities would be honed to utter perfection by the centuries of training and conflict and by the veritable lakes of victims he's slain. Ventress killing a handful of fodder is utter inconsequential.


As to the second point, obviously before the Empire revealed itself Sith would be the greater threat. And Vitiate didn't give many ****s about the Empire, only things that effected his agenda's. And Sajar was a loose end that needed tying up, since he knew about the Emperor's Children.

carthage
As opposed to Scourge killing scores of unknown fodder?

Nephthys
They're stated to not be fodder. Pay attention.

Emperordmb
Isn't Scourge roughly around Act II HOT level, whose above every other Jedi at that point or something?

carthage
Them being stated as not being fodder means nothing when Ventress can contend with Mace, Fisto, Obi Wan, Plo i,e the most skilled duelists produced by the Jedi order.

Fisto, Kenobi, Mace >> Nameless TOR losers

Nephthys
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Isn't Scourge roughly around Act II HOT level, whose above every other Jedi at that point or something?

Yes.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Aurbere
So clearly Satele, her Council buddies, and the Dark Council peeps we know are inferior to Scourge's victims. smile

laughing out loud thumb up

ILS
Scourge has to be one of the most poorly wanked characters in SW debating history.

Syndicate's Galen wanking is better.

Emperordmb
I feel like Scourge would be better wanked from powerscaling off of Meetra and Act II HOT (and by extension every Jedi in the order and everyone HOT defeated prior to that) rather than using the thousands of kills thing as his primary feat.

Beniboybling
thumb up

Syndicate
@Neph

And?

Like, what's your point? Scourge was Vitiate's enforcer. His job was to protect the Emperor, keep the Dark Council in line, see to his interests and eliminate a very select set of targets when Vitiate wishes it. Ventress' job was to **** shit up. Obviously her more indiscriminate methods would lead to faster results.

Ventress's job was to eliminate targets and carry out missions given by Dooku similar to Scourge's position. I don't see what the difference between their methods has to do with their comparative accomplishments in the same time frame.

Regardless, this is the completely wrong thing to be focusing on. The impressiveness isn't that Scourge "managed" to kill 1100 powerful opponents in 300 years. It's not a ****ing race. The quality comes from the fact that he's killed over a thousand goddamn opponents. That's insane in terms of combat experience. His abilities would be honed to utter perfection by the centuries of training and conflict and by the veritable lakes of victims he's slain. Ventress killing a handful of fodder is utter inconsequential.

So killing 3 Sith a year on average is going to hone his skill to perfection? :/ So Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars that Dooku picked out to be eliminated are fodder but the featless/nameless Sith Scourge killed aren't? Ok.

As to the second point, obviously before the Empire revealed itself Sith would be the greater threat. And Vitiate didn't give many ****s about the Empire, only things that effected his agenda's. And Sajar was a loose end that needed tying up, since he knew about the Emperor's Children.

My mistake. I realized this was before the war. Still why are these combatants any more impressive then the Jedi Ventress killed?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Syndicate

So killing 3 Sith a year on average is going to hone his skill to perfection? :/

laughing out loud

AncientPower
Why would Lord Scourge scale positively off of Meetra when she completely outperforms him in both fights? Noting that she is pretty severely hindered and he had amps going for him both times.

Total Warrior
Originally posted by Nephthys
They're stated to not be fodder. Pay attention. Not being fodder doesn't mean much, especially in TOR. The Sith who fought during the sacking of Coruscant were said to be the elite of the Empire, still Ven Zallow could easily oneshot them. Moreover, a lot of Sith Lords during TOR era didn't fight alone, but were usually supported by dozens bodyguards, disciples,mercenaries they hired etc So obviously if a couple of these sith lords formed an alliance they could still pose a threat to the empire thanks to their little private armies. As far as we know the Sith Scourge killed may all be Darth Paladius tier,but if they have hundreds of loyal followers they may represent a threat.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by carthage
As opposed to Scourge killing scores of unknown fodder?

Originally posted by carthage
Them being stated as not being fodder means nothing when Ventress can contend with Mace, Fisto, Obi Wan, Plo i,e the most skilled duelists produced by the Jedi order.

Fisto, Kenobi, Mace >> Nameless TOR losers
Aside from Kit Fisto, I don't recall Asajj Ventress defeating others.

During the events of SWTOR, the Emperor's Wrath was dispatched to assassinate a former member of the Dark Council (Darth) Sajar. He stalemated Tol Braga in a confrontation; the same guy who dominated Act III Hero of Tython in the early phase of the battle. So when we put the dots together, we figure out that Darth Sajar was on par with some of the strongest Jedi of the era.

Based on this example alone, we can infer that the Emperor's Wrath was dispatched to contend with high profile targets. Once again, your assumptions are ridiculous.

Originally posted by Syndicate
So killing 3 Sith a year on average is going to hone his skill to perfection? :/ So Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars that Dooku picked out to be eliminated are fodder but the featless/nameless Sith Scourge killed aren't? Ok.
Yes.

In his many decades as the Emperor's personal executioner, Scourge has developed a unique view of people, and a fatalistic view of the galaxy at large. He possesses an uncanny ability to analyze those around him to discover their weaknesses, and use that knowledge to his advantage.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

Sounds like shatterpoint to me.

Originally posted by Syndicate
My mistake. I realized this was before the war. Still why are these combatants any more impressive then the Jedi Ventress killed?
Why would he be dispatched to contend with foes that can be easily dismissed? A lesser Sith or an Imperial agent or some bounty hunters could do that job.

See the example of Darth Sajar above.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why would Lord Scourge scale positively off of Meetra when she completely outperforms him in both fights? Noting that she is pretty severely hindered and he had amps going for him both times.
The Emperor's Wrath is on a whole new level then the Lord Scourge we got to know in the novel.

Syndicate
So there's a quote that says Scourge can analyze people's weaknesses and that now means he knows shatterpoint? :/ Ok.

Beniboybling
Lmao, sounds more he's good at reading people, 'cause life experience.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Syndicate
So there's a quote that says Scourge can analyze people's weaknesses and that now means he knows shatterpoint? :/ Ok.

laughing out loud

Geistalt
Originally posted by Syndicate
So there's a quote that says Scourge can analyze people's weaknesses and that now means he knows shatterpoint? :/ Ok. Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, sounds more he's good at reading people, 'cause life experience.

Azronger
Dooku solos.

SunRazer
Dooku and Ventress give them a ruinous and painful end.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku solos. Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku and Ventress give them a ruinous and painful end. thumb up

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku solos.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku solos.

AncientPower
Dooku isn't soloing the Wrath. laughing out loud

Geistalt
He might.

Even Anakin had trouble with him.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku isn't soloing the Wrath. laughing out loud

Are you planning on surpassing Legend? If so, good job.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku isn't soloing the Wrath. laughing out loud

If it were Act III HoT and Wrath I'd say he doesn't solo, but Scourge is weak sauce.

AncientPower
Pre-prime Wrath 'ruining' Baras who is considerably more powerful than Darth Ekkage, who is much more powerful than prime Wyellett, who decades before his prime was considered the most powerful Jedi hero of the day, more than the likes of Ven Zallow, Nomen Karr, Jaric Kaedan or even GM Satele Shan?

Yeh Dooku isn't beating him, and certainly not him with Scourge as back up.

AncientPower
If it makes you feel better, I have Wrath above any other Protagonist.

WrathLander is pretty insanely strong when you consider him ruining Baras before fighting through Ilum, Makeb, the Dread War, the Revanite War and then the massive amps the Outlander recieves over the course of KOTFE and KOTET.

Zenwolf
You guys confuse me sometimes on who goes where regarding TOR.

AncientPower
Because they massively lowball everything to do with TOR, that's why.

Geistalt
Scourge > Baras.

The second Wrath > Scourge, as well. And that statement of Scourge having slain 1100 Sith and Jedi is way more impressive when you consider that he was reserved for those who openly defied/threatened the Emperor.

Ursumeles
Baras > Scourge
Originally posted by AncientPower
Wyellett, who decades before his prime was considered the most powerful Jedi hero of the day, more than the likes of Ven Zallow, Nomen Karr, Jaric Kaedan or even GM Satele Shan?
Quote?

But yeah, it's just that Dooku is damn good at handling duos, and was able to remove Kenobi (someone who sh!ts on Scourge), while "handling" Anakin (someone who sh!ts on Wrath). After he killed Scourge, he beats Wrath in a 1 v 1 thumb up

SunRazer
Originally posted by Geistalt
Scourge > Baras.

The second Wrath > Scourge, as well. And that statement of Scourge having slain 1100 Sith and Jedi is way more impressive when you consider that he was reserved for those who openly defied/threatened the Emperor.

Right, but that begs the question of who fits the bill of "too powerful". Clearly the most powerful Jedi are still running around; by Scourge's own admission, the Jedi he's killed are lesser than novel Surik on DK's nexus, and the Sith he's killed are generally lesser than DC members.

There's a point where quantity stops being impressive. Doing the same thing over and over is not the most amazing feat.

AncientPower
We know Wyellett is among the Jedi's great heroes. Greater than Nomen Karr due to their respective Darth Baras confrontations. Nomen Karr 'destroyed' Baras' sister Ekkage, also nearly defeating Baras but fled. Wyellett's apprentice Xerender was capable of contesting with Baras and Wyellett by Baras' own admission humiliated him.

Nomen Karr himself being one of the most veteran Jedi Masters of the war and one of the Jedi Masters that Ngoni Zho considered invincible in combat when accompanied by Satele Shan, Syo Bakarn, Jaric Kaedan and Kiwiiks. He infiltrated the Sith Empire and masked his alignment without being corrupted until uncovered by Baras himself.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Pre-prime Wrath 'ruining' Baras who is considerably more powerful than Darth Ekkage, who is much more powerful than prime Wyellett, who decades before his prime was considered the most powerful Jedi hero of the day, more than the likes of Ven Zallow, Nomen Karr, Jaric Kaedan or even GM Satele Shan?

Yeh Dooku isn't beating him, and certainly not him with Scourge as back up. On the other hand Dooku ragdolled Kenobi, Vos & Ventress, tossed freighters like toys and held his ground against Grand Master Yoda, Anakin & Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. This is supposed to compare? laughing out loud

Wrath gets the Arcann treatement kek.

AncientPower
Ragdolled Kenobi who himself admits he's prone to having his barriers compromised. The other two aren't even notable here.

Tossed freighters of unknown size? Great. Aryn Leneer threw a six car train like a missile, casually and she's a footnote compared to the Wrath.

Dooku freely admits he was an imbecile for thinking he could challenge Yoda in combat whilst amped by Vjun. So that's a no.

Dooku couldn't break Kenobi's defenses when he switched to Soresu and he was getting steamrolled by Anakin's Djem So. So that's a no.

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
Ragdolled Kenobi who himself admits he's prone to having his barriers compromised.

When did he admit so? His barriers are pretty well-developed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The other two aren't even notable here.

They're both more powerful than Scourge, and honestly aren't far behind even Wrath.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Tossed freighters of unknown size? Great. Aryn Leneer threw a six car train like a missile, casually and she's a footnote compared to the Wrath.

The size can be gauged and it's anywhere from 50 to 215 meters in length based on the average cruisers used in Ancient times. This is a conservative estimate, btw.

And threw them like a missile? Where was this stated in the entire text? It only says they were "propelled by Aryn's power". Meanwhile 22 BBY Anakin is hurling tanks so that they have the effect of bombs that destroy entire armies, and he's still inferior to both prime Asajj and prime Kenobi. thumb up

Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku freely admits he was an imbecile for thinking he could challenge Yoda in combat whilst amped by Vjun. So that's a no.

That doesn't change the fact that a plethora of sources supports Dooku as actually challenging him, and some sources note his technical skill might've even been greater than Yoda's.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku couldn't break Kenobi's defenses when he switched to Soresu

Yeah, he couldn't break his defense in the two seconds for Anakin to get up and press Dooku again, and this is while Dooku was exhausted and caught off-guard since he was led into a false sense of security.

Originally posted by AncientPower
and he was getting steamrolled by Anakin's Djem So. So that's a no.

For similar reasons as mentioned above. When he re-gathered his energies, he was handling himself pretty well even if he was losing and the movie shows Dooku capably matching Anakin's strength head-on for a solid 10 seconds.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Ragdolled Kenobi who himself admits he's prone to having his barriers compromised.Orly? I don't remember.

More notable than anyone the Wrath has dominated certainly.

Tossed hulking Sith cruisers in the sub-100m range, easily, and while not even in the room >>>>>> pushing tram cars kek.

And I wonder how it's possible for Leneer to be a footnote when she went toe-to-toe with Malgus, who a decade later took on the Wrath in a 4 v 1. Lmao.

laughing out loud

Your talent for embellishing on the facts continues to astound. He concedes that there was a possibility he could have lost against Yoda on Vjun but nonetheless was able to hold is own, then, and on Geonosis. I'm struggling to recall when the Wrath did anything to compare.

I'm talking about their duel on Oba-Diah darling, let's not kid ourselves into thinking the Wrath could penetrate Kenobi's defenses when striking-twenty-times-per-second Grievous failed, or that he wouldn't get bulldozed by the Yoda+ power wielding Chosen One. Lmao.

Not that he didn't prove a "formidable" opponent nonetheless, another feat well-beyond the Wrath's pay-packet. thumb up

Beniboybling
Oh dear, a double KO. sad

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by MythLord
Meanwhile 22 BBY Anakin is hurling tanks so that they have the effect of bombs that destroy entire armies, and he's still inferior to both prime Asajj and prime Kenobi. thumb up

Actually that Anakin is inferior even to TCWM Kenobi, let alone prime smile

MythLord
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Actually that Anakin is inferior even to TCWM Kenobi, let alone prime smile

Indeed. Obi is an exceptionally powerful Force user. thumb up

Rockydonovang
"barriers not well devloped"
pre rots anakin/mustfar anakin would would disagree

Rockydonovang
There's also kenobi defending vs post tcw anakin, somone who was vastly superior to his dreadnaught manipulating incarnation

SunRazer
@Wollf - I thought the smallest size for the cruisers would've been 75 metres.

Zenwolf
According to the Anaxes College System, a cruiser was 400-600 meters in length. Anything smaller than 100 meters was considered a space transport. A corvette was 100-200 meters.

A heavy cruiser was 600-1,000 meters in length.

Now that said, an ancient Sith Battle cruiser was 215 meters long, so just a little larger than a corvette.

SunRazer
Yeah, I mentioned in the other thread with Deronn. But then again, ancient cruisers wouldn't have been made to fit the Anaxes War College system.

Still, 215m is massive, and Dooku was easily hurling them about without even being in the same room.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, I mentioned in the other thread with Deronn. But then again, ancient cruisers wouldn't have been made to fit the Anaxes War College system.

Still, 215m is massive, and Dooku was easily hurling them about without even being in the same room.

What source is this again?

SunRazer
Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown. Dooku is confirmed to be the mysterious Sith in the book.

Tondemonai
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, I mentioned in the other thread with Deronn. But then again, ancient cruisers wouldn't have been made to fit the Anaxes War College system.

Still, 215m is massive, and Dooku was easily hurling them about without even being in the same room.

Ok, I've never actually seen this feat in any of his RT's, nor have I been able to find it on the Internet. Could you please provide it?

SunRazer
It's in my RT...

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Wollf - I thought the smallest size for the cruisers would've been 75 metres.

Nah, that's the average cruiser. There are some that range in 50 meters.

SunRazer
Which ones?

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by MythLord
Nah, that's the average cruiser. There are some that range in 50 meters.

Correct. Some freighters are even classified as cruisers.

Tondemonai
Are you talking about the vehicles in the hanger feat?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Ok, I've never actually seen this feat in any of his RT's, nor have I been able to find it on the Internet. Could you please provide it?

Its a bullshit feat. The vehicles were clearly not very big and the author calls speeders "cruisers" at one point, lol.

SunRazer
"Clearly not very big?" Is that why Obi-Wan and Anakin had to leap, twist and dive in order to avoid huge pieces of shrapnel from falling on top of them?

Not to mention when Dooku smashes several vehicles/vehicle remnants together to block the hangar entrance, it's described as a "mountain of metal". Which he also moved "so easily".

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
Which ones?

I'm using intel from the SW Gamer Magazine and their listings of ancient ship vehicles. The biggest are 200+, the smallest are 50 meters.

I think I posted that a while back in a thread.

Zenwolf
Oh man...the Ancient Sith had such crap for starships! I mean I get it, era timeframe and everything. But I can't help compare and man...they had absolute crap.

SunRazer
Well, they weren't the most technologically advanced people to begin with.

MythLord
Large, throwable, Dooku-wanking crap. thumb up

That's an apt description of both the ships and myself. :3

Zenwolf
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, they weren't the most technologically advanced people to begin with.

True I guess I can't be too hard on em. stick out tongue

Tondemonai
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Clearly not very big?" Is that why Obi-Wan and Anakin had to leap, twist and dive in order to avoid huge pieces of shrapnel from falling on top of them?

Not to mention when Dooku smashes several vehicles/vehicle remnants together to block the hangar entrance, it's described as a "mountain of metal". Which he also moved "so easily".

The sizes aren't confirmed. The first two are clearly smaller vessels, most likely fighters or shuttles (at leas the second was, given the mention of wings), but as far as the cruiser goes we don't actually know how large it was. Do we know how expansive the hanger was?

MythLord
All ancient Sith hangers could house multiple 215 long ships, and then some. thumb up

We can't say for certain how big the ships were, but we can make educated guesses and gauge the size. 70 meters seems fair.

SunRazer
The sizes aren't confirmed indeed; but they can range from 50 - 215 metres. Given the ease with which Dooku was doing it despite not even being in the same room, if you pick a size that's closer to the 215 metres you're basically putting Tyranus on the same level as Vader.

The first two vehicles weren't listed as cruisers to begin with. I'm saying the cruiser was so large that when it smashed into the wall it rained vehicle parts that were so large that Obi-Wan and Anakin had to leap, twist, dive and use Force Deflection in order to avoid being crushed. They ended up taking shelter underneath a giant statue, so again, the evidence points to those pieces being huge and hence the cruiser must've been massive.

As for how large the hangar was, I don't believe specifics were given, but IIRC, Anakin was amazed by the sheer size of it.

Azronger
They can't have been 215 meter-long, factually speaking.

SunRazer
Why not? Anyways, they don't have to be over 100m to be very impressive.

Zenwolf
215 meters wouldn't be classified as cruisers anyway, they'd be roughly still in a Corvette range just slightly bigger.

Azronger
Check my thread in the EU section.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Zenwolf
215 meters wouldn't be classified as cruisers anyway, they'd be roughly still in a Corvette range just slightly bigger.

Again, it's not following the Anaxes War College system.

Tondemonai
The way I interpreted the text was that they weren't twisting and diving around the shrapnel and debris from the cruiser, but from other things Dooku hurled at them. Given how easy it was for him to throw the "cruiser", and this is the only feat of this magnitude we have for him, it seems more reasonable that the "cruiser" was <100m

Zenwolf
Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, it's not following the Anaxes War College system.

Does it matter? They've also compared Xim's ship and classified it as just a heavy cruiser in size, so I don't see why we can't use that system. It's not like it's really changing the size, just the classification.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Tondemonai
The way I interpreted the text was that they weren't twisting and diving around the shrapnel and debris from the cruiser, but from other things Dooku hurled at them. Given how easy it was for him to throw the "cruiser", and this is the only feat of this magnitude we have for him, it seems more reasonable that the "cruiser" was <100m

Dooku is not stated as having hurled anything else at them. The preceding paragraph talks about the cruiser smashing into the wall, and then it immediately says "vehicle parts began to fall like rain" which seems to me to be a pretty clear indication that it was parts of the cruiser that were falling.

And yeah, the most reasonable and seemingly most agreeable figure would be around 75m. On reconsideration, 215m wouldn't just be on Vader's level; it'd be well above Vader-tier, which makes no sense.

MythLord
Vader's rival can destroy half of a 300 meter frigate, yet Vader's incapable of hurling a 215 meter ship? Wut?

SunRazer
Well, Starkiller's showing was achieved with maximum effort, IIRC. For Vader to hurl a larger ship near-effortlessly whilst being in a completely different room would require him to be a cut above Starkiller, not just rivalling him.

Also, if you word it as "half of 300m", that just seems like a deliberate attempt to step up the feat in comparison to Dooku's. Just call it a 150m ship (it was actually the smaller half, too).

Rockydonovang
tfu 2 starkiller does not rival vader, who was pre prime anyhow

AncientPower
According to Sam Witwer.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, Starkiller's showing was achieved with maximum effort, IIRC. For Vader to hurl a larger ship near-effortlessly whilst being in a completely different room would require him to be a cut above Starkiller, not just rivalling him.

1. It wasn't maximum effort.
2. Vader isn't just rivaling Starkiller he shits on him.
3. Hurling a ship is so hilariously outclassed by pulverizing it that I can't even fathom how you can make such a comparison in the first place.

SunRazer
1. Doesn't the text say he let out everything? What proves it wasn't maximum effort?

2. Based on what?

3. Just "hurling a ship" is a pretty conservative way of putting it. He hurled the ship into the wall with enough force to reduce it or at least parts of it into shrapnel. And again, he did it easily and from a completely different room.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Doesn't the text say he let out everything? What proves it wasn't maximum effort?

2. Based on what?

3. Just "hurling a ship" is a pretty conservative way of putting it. He hurled the ship into the wall with enough force to reduce it or at least parts of it into shrapnel. And again, he did it easily and from a completely different room.

1. Because in one moment he noticed Juno, in the next he pulverized the ship. He had no time whatsoever to gather power for it to be max effort.

2. Based on Vader ragdolling his ass, based on Vader beating him while holding back, based on quotes and accolades, based on the Witwer interview.

3. That's still a far cry from blowing something into a billion pieces.

SunRazer
1. Charging up powers and max effort are different things. I meant max effort in the moment, basically. He was pouring all he could into the attack; that's a far cry from Dooku easily moving the vehicles.

2. Well, if we assume Starkiller is similar to Galen, then he's done the ragdolling to Vader as well, IIRC. When did Vader beat him? He lost in TFU II, although he was holding back. And which accolades put Vader so high that he shits on Starkiller?

3. Maybe, but that's why Dooku did "so easily" and from a different room. Remember he also affected a larger ship than Starkiller's by a full 65m.

Not to mention he later smashes said ship together with several others and moves the entire mass around, still easily. If the first feat doesn't match Starkiller's, the second one definitely does, if not surpasses it.

cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan
Also Dooku's feat being done easily was a character opinion, no? Seems quite contradictory since mere moments before he had to gather power to ragdoll a weakened pre-AotC Anakin.

SunRazer
1. Nowhere is it said that he had to gather power to push Kenobi. When he did gather power, a negligible fraction of that power was enough to send Obi-Wan flying. Earlier on in the novel, Obi-Wan is helpless against Dooku placing him in a bind, and that was without any noted gathering of power. And clearly Dooku didn't gather power to choke Obi-Wan, or else the attack wouldn't be sudden (or else Obi-Wan is just shit smile).

2. Right before that he notes that a stalemate was unavoidable, lol. And he was faking because he was trying to go for an indefensible position.

3. I know Tyranus didn't manipulate 215m ships. The discussion was based around me saying that it makes sense because if the feat was actually 215m ships, it would be above Vader. If you paid attention to what we were discussing instead of sticking your head in like you would through a pillory, you'd know that.

4. Doesn't seem like a character opinion to me. It's just a way of describing him drawing on the Force, and it could also be that using the Force on Korriban was just a more palpable effect (Tyranus did leave behind pools of darkness). He clearly didn't need to gather power to simultaneously shock and ragdoll Anakin in AotC.

cs_zoltan
1. What the hell are you rambling about? Yes he had to gather power, it doesn't matter how much he used of it. The point is if you need to gather power for something as basic as a push then certainly you'd need to do it to blow apart a freaking ship.

On the other hand all you have in support of max effort is this:

Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

Which is f-ucking hilarious.

2. And then he contradicts it by saying anything he does leads him to defeat. And he didn't need to try to go for an indefensible position since anything he could've done would result in just that. Holy shit Nova erm

3. Sorry, I should've remembered you like to discuss irrelevant shit.

4. Yeah...no. This doesn't sound like just drawing on the force at all: "He felt the dark side of the Force grow and gather." And what do you base it on that he didn't gather power in AotC?

Well it wasn't an opinion, but it was the deduction of an unreliable person. Since Dooku as you said wasn't in the room, all Kenobi saw that the ships moved easily, that doesn't mean Dooku didn't gather and exert much power to move them.

SunRazer
1. He doesn't "need" to gather power is my point. He just did in that scenario. I already gave you other examples when he Choked Obi-Wan without palpably gathering power. As for Starkiller, can I have the quote for him doing the busting? I seem to remember him actually putting everything he had into it, but I guess I'm wrong.

2. Well, no, that's not intended as a contradiction, since it isn't him realising something new (as opposed to the next paragraph) but rather expanding on the previous point, which was about a stalemate. Terrible writing all the same, though. And how is lightsaber dueling supposed to be relevant to my point, which is telekinetic power?

3. Your fault. smile

4. Nobody senses anything, for one. The fact that Anakin is clearly surprised by the attack would be another.

5. If it's an author perspective as opposed to a character opinion, why would it be unreliable?

cs_zoltan
With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him-and blew it into a billion pieces.

Clearly hyperbole.

SunRazer
Sounds like maximum effort regardless, but I agree it's hyperbole. In which case it isn't a billion pieces at all. smile

cs_zoltan
As much maximum effort as Dooku hurling a part of a table thumb up

SunRazer
He's clearly putting his all into it, you dick.

cs_zoltan
Agree, so did Dooku throwing a table smile

Geistalt
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Agree, so did Dooku throwing a table smile lul when was this?

cs_zoltan
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table.
--Revenge of the Sith

Just the usual Nova ds smile

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by AncientPower
According to Sam Witwer.
and you know, the pc version of the game, the wii version of the game, and the prima guide which all have vader ragdolling the crap out of starkiller despite being pre prime.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Nowhere is it said that he had Earlier on in the novel, Obi-Wan is helpless against Dooku placing him in a bind, and that was without any noted gathering of power.
Uh, bind as in trap kenobi's saber wih his own saber

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.