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Cancer fight

All Out

Which movie gave you more cancer: The Phantom Menace or A New Hope Strikes Back?

TFA is a much better movie than TPM.

TPM was more daring, but that doesn't mean it turned out better.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TPM was more daring, but that doesn't mean it turned out better.

Originally posted by Trocity
TFA is a much better movie than TPM. Not sure tbh

Rey >> 9 year old Anakin

I enjoyed TPM more them TFA tbh.

Yeah, at least TPM had a couple cool scenes. TFA didn't introduce anything good to the lore.

Originally posted by Trocity
TFA is a much better movie than TPM.
Not really.

I dunno, I can't sit through TPM in its entirety anymore. Tattooine is so drawn out and boring.

But I'm weird, I hate the podracing. Duel of the fates is the only memorable thing in the movie.

TFA is sequel bait that rides on ANH's coat-tails. That's far more disgusting than pod racing.

TFA utterly shits on TPM.

TFA was better than TPM & AotC by a hair in my books.

No exposition.
Nonsensical plot and characters.
Cliches and Mary Sues
Best movie ever

TFA is a fantastic movie.

I liked that TPM gave us Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul though.

Originally posted by Trocity
I dunno, I can't sit through TPM in its entirety anymore. Tattooine is so drawn out and boring.

But I'm weird, I hate the podracing. Duel of the fates is the only memorable thing in the movie. I get what you mean. Anakin and Jar Jar steal the cancer show too, but TFA had the potential to save the franchise, which Disney interpreted as remaking the OTs/ignroing the PT, instead of actually filming a decent movie.Originally posted by |King Joker|
TFA utterly shits on TPM. Don't worry, it already shat on the entire franchise.

The rage is real in this thread.

Originally posted by Sinious
I get what you mean. Anakin and Jar Jar steal the cancer show too, but TFA had the potential to save the franchise, which Disney interpreted as remaking the OTs/ignroing the PT, instead of actually filming a decent movie. Don't worry, it already shat on the entire franchise.

Rehashing doesn't = Failure.

Neither does copying.

Originally posted by Trocity
TFA is a much better movie than TPM.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
TFA utterly shits on TPM.


Originally posted by The Ellimist
TPM was more daring, but that doesn't mean it turned out better.

Eh, killing Han Solo, turning his son into a darkside b*tch and wiping out Luke's Jedi was pretty daring. Also having your leads be a woman and a black guy.

What was so daring about TPM? Podracing?

LOL @ comparing using a couple non white male characters to what TPM was going for. Originally posted by Jmanghan
Rehashing doesn't = Failure.

Neither does copying. Agreed. I just hope we get to see Starkiller Base II in Return of the Return of the Jedi.

Engaging characters, great direction + snappy and energetic dialogue >>>>>> Boring, monotone assholes, Over-CGI'd, dead-looking shots and locations, utter pigshit dialogue, Child Anakin and Jar Jar Binks.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ comparing using a couple non white male characters to what TPM was going for.

You mean a movie with a totally white cast except for a dude in two scenes? Telling Anakin's backstory is every bit as "safe" as what TFA did. Lucas wanted more money so he did more Vader.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ comparing using a couple non white male characters to what TPM was going for. Agreed. I just hope we get to see Starkiller Base II in Return of the Return of the Jedi.



TFA and Abrams don't have any balls. For all his failures in the PT, Lucas had the testicular fortitude to tell a largely original story.

Not to mention the story of the PT is better than probably anything else in SW. Originally posted by Nephthys
Engaging characters, great direction + snappy and energetic dialogue >>>>>> Boring, monotone assholes, Over-CGI'd, dead-looking shots and locations, utter pigshit dialogue, Child Anakin and Jar Jar Binks.


You mean a movie with a totally white cast except for a dude in two scenes? Telling Anakin's backstory is every bit as "safe" as what TFA did. Lucas wanted more money so he did more Vader. I'm surprised how you treat this just as a movie. A new Star Wars trilogy means a complete new era. TPM started the PT era which now is the biggest part of the franchise. TPM obviously has shitty characters, dialogue and direction, but it brought countless new concepts to the lore. OT introduced SW to us, but PT defined it. TFA ignored every development we saw after 1999, and just created a less white cast, then reshot the OT. Did it remind us of the movies you love for a while? Sure. Was it fun to see a SW movie in 2015? Sure. As a person who is invested in SW more than the average fan, that is not enough for me to put it above TPM, and as a person who has spent time in SW 10 times more than I did, I feel like you should be more pissed than I am, since you're gonna have to debate the shittier versions of the movies you already saw.

I agree that the Prequels opened and defined the Star Wars universe in a way that the previous films hadn't. They generated lots of storytelling potential. That doesn't mean that they were comparable as films unto themselves.

Yes, but if you are involved with the material enough (which we all are), the movies start representing a vaster world as you watch it, which has an affect on how much you enjoy the movie experience. More importantly, if TFA was a great and original film, but was a really shitty era, then I'd be more open-minded about it, but it's a remake.

To all the above.

And lol at casting a black and female actor being daring, that's called pandering times with something well overdue, of course it was going to be well received.

You know what would be actually daring? Making Poe and Finn an actual romance (which would actually add substantive narrative quality), but as if that would ever happen.

Originally posted by Sinious
Not to mention the story of the PT is better than probably anything else in SW.

haermm

No way man. No ****ing way.

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm surprised how you treat this just as a movie. A new Star Wars trilogy means a complete new era. TPM started the PT era which now is the biggest part of the franchise. TPM obviously has shitty characters, dialogue and direction, but it brought countless new concepts to the lore. OT introduced SW to us, but PT defined it. TFA ignored every development we saw after 1999, and just created a less white cast, then reshot the OT. Did it remind us of the movies you love for a while? Sure. Was it fun to see a SW movie in 2015? Sure. As a person who is invested in SW more than the average fan, that is not enough for me to put it above TPM, and as a person who has spent time in SW 10 times more than I did, I feel like you should be more pissed than I am, since you're gonna have to debate the shittier versions of the movies you already saw.

I don't give a shit about any of that. Any movie set during that period would have introduced the same concepts. TPM could have done that and been a good movie at the same time. A movies quality depends upon the movie itself. Stupid fanboy concerns about "the greater lore" are insignificant.

And I would consider it a pleasure to discuss TFA since it's filled with characters I actually enjoy and has a sense of infectious energy to it. Personally I find it a chore to talk about the PT because it's stuffed with hundreds of insufferable turds and idiocies. I have little investment in that period because Lucas completely failed to capture mine in his films. I only like 2 characters in the whole PT and that's Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Sidious. I kind of like Qui-Gon but I assure you it's in spite of TPM, not because of it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To all the above.

And lol at casting a black and female actor being daring, that's called pandering times with something well overdue, of course it was going to be well received.

You know what would be actually daring? Making Poe and Finn an actual romance (which would actually add substantive narrative quality), but as if that would ever happen.

It's more daring than casting an almost fully white cast with some token blacks and horribly racist stereotypes like Jar Jar and Nute Gunray.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Engaging characters, great direction + snappy and energetic dialogue >>>>>> Boring, monotone assholes, Over-CGI'd, dead-looking shots and locations, utter pigshit dialogue, Child Anakin and Jar Jar Binks. Yeah, I can actually watch TFA without wanting to fall asleep and bitchslap the characters.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You know what would be actually daring? Making Poe and Finn an actual romance (which would actually add substantive narrative quality), but as if that would ever happen. Tbh I never got a romantic vibe from Finn and Poe so that would feel forced if they did that IMO

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ comparing using a couple non white male characters to what TPM was going for. Agreed. I just hope we get to see Starkiller Base II in Return of the Return of the Jedi.

I mean, all movie critics gave this an above average score ans your personal opinion won't change that.

Even after the flaws were pointed out it was still getting near-perfect scores.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Tbh I never got a romantic vibe from Finn and Poe so that would feel forced if they did that IMO Meh I did, it would be a lot less forced (and predictable) that the FinnXRey romance we'll probably end up getting.Originally posted by Nephthys
It's more daring than casting an almost fully white cast with some token blacks and horribly racist stereotypes like Jar Jar and Nute Gunray. TFA had an undoubtedly better cast but the fact remains TPM was far more progressive in its world building - which is of fundamental importance in a space opera, not a "fanboy" concern.Originally posted by Jmanghan
I mean, all movie critics gave this an above average score ans your personal opinion won't change that.

Even after the flaws were pointed out it was still getting near-perfect scores. I love how people act as if this were a competition, as opposed to an exchange of personal opinions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
haermm

No way man. No ****ing way. Are you serious? The build up of RoT, the Plagueis/Sidious dynamic till post TPM, then the CW conflict ending with the climax that is ROTS tops pretty much anything I can think of. Nothing from TOR comes close to it, perhaps with the exception of KOTOR II. Except the story itself is a part of the movie, and if the story sucks, the movie sucks. This isn't a stoner's comedy movie where you just wanna get cool scenes and fun dialogues. It is an established franchise, where the continuity has to be kept rich. PT took SW to a whole new level in this regard, and TFA not only disregarded all this and went back to 83, it didn't even add anything to this pure OT style mentality. They even openly make fun of the fans. That scene where they compare SK Base to Death Star is an indirect way of Disney saying "Yeah we know this is a complete remake of the movies you already saw, but we all know you're gonna see it anyway, so in your faces". I'm worried that you didn't feel insulted, Neph.

I don't think we'll get FinnXRey, honestly. To me they just treated it like a cute crush for Finn, and Rey seemed completely disinterested or oblivious.

Yeah that's why I feel like it would be forced, but I'm not seeing any other romance possibilities.

Maybe they decided to throw that out entirely along with political exposition?

Adding more black people makes our movie daring!

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Adding more black people makes our movie daring! u loved it

Have you been in any movies?

It depends. Will future movies give Luke and co. enough high-end feats?

In the vein of the OT, only Rey will have any feats whatsoever. And high end does not describe them.

Nah. Yoda lifted an X-wing in ESB, that's old school though. If they're gonna copy episode V they should have Luke move a mountain or a moon.

Yoda moving an X-wing isn't even a high end feat for the OT, lel.

Right, and neither will moving a mountain be for the ST. Rey will be slicing through star destroyers on her way to encountering Kylo and Snoke in a throne room, where Snoke will have her lightsaber and tempt her to strike her down by showing her a space battle.

^

http://s32.postimg.org/8mepmetvp/13181110_10157032113552355_1351206965_n.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The rage is real in this thread.

Originally posted by Trocity
TFA is a much better movie than TPM.

Originally posted by ares834


You also think that every Rebels episode is a masterpiece. STFU. uhuh

Originally posted by Sinious
^

http://s32.postimg.org/8mepmetvp/13181110_10157032113552355_1351206965_n.jpg Lol

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
TFA is sequel bait that rides on ANH's coat-tails. That's far more disgusting than pod racing.

The Force Awakens was the best film of the saga.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Force Awakens was the best film of the saga.

Nooooooooooo.........

I feel like people hate the film just to hate it.

Star Wars fans are the bane of their own franchise.

Originally posted by Sinious
^

http://s32.postimg.org/8mepmetvp/13181110_10157032113552355_1351206965_n.jpg
****ing A.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I feel like people hate the film just to hate it.

Star Wars fans are the bane of their own franchise.

I made 2 YouTube videos on it lol

You really need to stop caring that its a rehash.

No one cares, and you shouldn't.

Jump on the hype train. Stop thinking for yourself.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Jump on the hype train. Stop thinking for yourself.

Because reposting others' arguments is "thinking for yourself".

No, but being told to not think about something because no one cares is definitely telling someone not to think for themselves.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Jump on the hype train. Stop thinking for yourself.

Thats not what I was saying and you know it.

Its just kinda BS that Sinious is acting like everyone should think TFA is shit just because its a near-carbon copy.

As an example, there was a video game just released called "Salt and Sanctuary".

Its amazing, but they copied almost all of the core mechanics from Dark Souls.

No one hates it for copying all that stuff, because its still done right, and done good.

This is an almost exact Carbon Copy of ANH, but they could've messed up what made ANH so good, they didn't.

Abrams was able to use the Formula to create a good, but unoriginal movie.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Thats not what I was saying and you know it.

It's actually exactly what you said.

Not comparable in the slightest given "Salt and Sanctuary" is an indie game and TFA is a rehash of the same story under the same name by the same company. Not to mention, TFA isn't a bad movie because it's unoriginal. It's a bad movie because it brings absolutely nothing to the table, with a terrible plot, while being unoriginal.

LOL

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's actually exactly what you said.

Not comparable in the slightest given "Salt and Sanctuary" is an indie game and TFA is a rehash of the same story under the same name by the same company. Not to mention, TFA isn't a bad movie because it's unoriginal. It's a bad movie because it brings absolutely nothing to the table, with a terrible plot, while being unoriginal.

Then why does everyone love it, with it getting scores rivalling the original trilogy or Peter Jackson's LoTR movies?

Why does everyone like MLP? I sure as **** don't know. People don't like change, more importantly, people like dumb action movies. Not that the OT or LotR even had good writing or a good story.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then why does everyone love it, with it getting scores rivalling the original trilogy or Peter Jackson's LoTR movies?

Just because a lot of people feel a certain way about something, doesn't mean it's inherently right.

I think TFA sucks because it's a transparent, shameless rehash when it could be something a hell of a lot more.

If it has a good, but rehashed formula, to me, its still good.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
If it has a good, but rehashed formula, to me, its still good. Then you're as shameless as TFA

Originally posted by Sinious
Then you're as shameless as TFA

No, you just think creativity and originality is the heart of a good movie.

Wanna know something? Its impossible to be original today, every medium has stolen something off of something else.

I never said they're the "heart of a good movie". You don't have to be insanely creative or %100 original to make a good movie, but there is middle ground between that and being a complete remake, and as I've already explained, you can't treat a Star Wars movie the same way you watch a random stoner comedy. It's not meant to be just a fun movie, the continuity has to be kept rich. If Abrams wasn't up for the challenge, he shouldn't have shown the impudence to direct it.

Episode 8 will probably be amazing though.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No, you just think creativity and originality is the heart of a good movie.

Wanna know something? Its impossible to be original today, every medium has stolen something off of something else.

Can't speak for Sin but creativity and originality don't necessarily make for an inherently good movie.

That said, TFA is shit. They wiped the slate clean with post-ROTJ canon and had all the tools at their disposal to make something truly remarkable and take the saga in an exciting new direction. Instead, they opted for a lazy, disingenuous rehash of a classic Star Wars film, plagiarizing from their own friggin series.

If they had the honesty to just reboot the OT, I'd be OK with it. But this was a sackless, dishonest, cynical moneymaking move that utterly failed to justify itself creatively.

I award TFA no points and may God have mercy on Disney's soul.

I enjoyed both for what they were, abit yeah TFA was pretty much ANH and both had some eh scenes(I find more in TFA because it's similar to ANH), but then no movie is perfect in every single person's eyes.

It also diminishes the impact and import of the previous trilogy by basically hitting the reset button. Abrams changed some names and gave some shit a fresh paint job.

Pathetic tbh.

It's actually a lot worse than ANH, because ANH didn't need a novel released half a year later to explain most of what's going on.

TFA's creative failures highlight the success of NJO for me. NJO had some weak moments, but they were eclipsed by the good ones. A unique storyline, a unique and compelling villain, some new and memorable characters, and development for both the old crew and new.

Wtf is an "inherently good" movie lol? The closest standard would be its utilitarian benefit, which would actually correlate with popular opinion.

That was the point being made.

TFA was the Superman Returns of the Star Wars franchise: A love letter to the Original film whilst trying to be a sequel.

No idea why SR flopped whilst TFA became the 3rd biggest grossing film of all time though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Can't speak for Sin but creativity and originality don't necessarily make for an inherently good movie. I like how Jmanghan pretends like these are the only problems with the movie. Originally posted by The_Tempest


That said, TFA is shit. They wiped the slate clean with post-ROTJ canon and had all the tools at their disposal to make something truly remarkable and take the saga in an exciting new direction. Instead, they opted for a lazy, disingenuous rehash of a classic Star Wars film, plagiarizing from their own friggin series.

If they had the honesty to just reboot the OT, I'd be OK with it. But this was a sackless, dishonest, cynical moneymaking move that utterly failed to justify itself creatively.

I award TFA no points and may God have mercy on Disney's soul.

It also diminishes the impact and import of the previous trilogy by basically hitting the reset button. Abrams changed some names and gave some shit a fresh paint job.

Pathetic tbh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That was the point being made.

It's the exact opposite, actually, lawl.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's the exact opposite, actually, lawl.
That was the point Tempest was making, fool. We have this conversation all the time.

He said that popular opinion doesn't relate to the "inherent goodness" of a movie. I was saying that it does, or at least it does to the most reasonable criteria we could establish. You're very confused, as always.

Go into the Battle Bar. You act like this is the first time anyone has discussed the PT vs TFA.

Idc what arguments you guys made before; both of you were making declarative statements about the inherent quality of the movies just now, and that is what I am addressing. If you guys are contradicting your previous statements, that's not my problem.

Yeah, no one should have to write "in my opinion" at the end of every opinionated statement. It's obviously an opinion. This entire thread is.

Tempest's original point was that opinions don't matter next to the "inherent truth".

Nah, my point is that opinions in large quantities (or small for that matter) aren't necessarily right. I also said that just because a movie is creative and/or original doesn't mean it's a good movie.

Art criticism is subjective. The idea that a movie is good because lots of people say it's good is ridiculous.

While true, the idea that critical reception is meaningless or that numerous informed opinions should be easily dismissed is equally ridiculous imo.

Not that I'm saying thats what you're doing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, my point is that opinions in large quantities (or small for that matter) aren't necessarily right.

That's what I said, lol.

Anyway, there's no way to objectively determine what degree of creativity outweighs what degree of execution/nostalgia/whatever, except for maybe how much it entertains, or even benefits, people.

And the plan seems to be for TFA to draw everyone back into the universe via nostalgia, and then for the subsequent films to try something new. Which makes sense IMHO.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And the plan seems to be for TFA to draw everyone back into the universe via nostalgia, and then for the subsequent films to try something new. Which makes sense IMHO.

This was my thinking also.

Obviously TFA went as planned. This is about whether that plan is "good." Being shit on purpose doesn't really make the fact that it's shit better.

It arguably makes it more shit.

How is being nostalgic being shit? There are different kinds of films that can fulfill different purposes, and nostalgia is one of them.

Yeah, the fact that an anthology film like Rogue One looks more promising than a numbered title that is supposed to be a sequel isn't what I envisioned when I heard of Star Wars becoming relevant again.

It would have been relatively easy to be nostalgic without copying the plot of ANH to a T; people like to joke about the Avatar-esque leak but they could have set the world up similar to how it is in LoK. Hell, at this point I'd settle for a film that explains it's own backstory. Like at all. Instead we're thrust into a galaxy far, far away with with the smallest bits of information, and even ANH set up the state of the galaxy better with a simple five minute conversation.

Rogue One looks very promising.

But yeah, you can create a new storyline with pre-established elements to make the universe familiar to the casual fan...

...without doing what TFA did.

It was shit.

I don't think it would've been as effective if it was done very differently, tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


And the plan seems to be for TFA to draw everyone back into the universe via nostalgia, and then for the subsequent films to try something new. Which makes sense IMHO.

THANK YOU, you understand. That's my thought exactly. Obviously doing the movie plot very similar to ANH's is on purpose. And it does make sense imho, too.

And the fact that the movie isn't original does not mean by any means it is a bad movie, and whoever thinks it does mean that will be generally disappointed in cinema for the rest of his/her life.

I don't think anyone thinks they wrote TFA the way they did on accident, lel.

As to your latter point, you obviously didn't read any other replies in this thread if you think it being unoriginal is the problem.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't think anyone thinks they wrote TFA the way they did on accident, lel.

As to your latter point, you obviously didn't read any other replies in this thread if you think it being unoriginal is the problem.


Well, lack of originality isn't necessarily done purposefully. But yes, it's pretty obvious in this case.

And nah, I just read the replies on the first two pages, where people criticize TFA's lack of originality and praise the PT's abundance of it.

Summary? Pls?

lol

It's a new SW movie series helmed by someone other than Lucas, involving the original cast, and empowered by the all-powerful Mickey Mouse corporation. Pretty sure Episode 7 would have done just fine at the box office even if they hadn't rehashed ANH.

Jesus Christ, look at James Cameron's Avatar.

Do you dislike the Pocahontas remake?

huh?

Avatar = Pocahontas.

More importantly, Kylo Ren stopping a blaster bolt gives us a nice feat for vs. debates, although I guess TPM did a lot more relative to the OT's. Now we just need to see some more wank in the rest of the ST.

Yes, priorities.

Ep8 will be better than any of the PT, you'll see.

It was pretty good, yeah.

Your insinuation that Avatar isn't 100% original is misguided: I'm not saying TFA needs to be 100% original in all of fiction.

I'm saying it shouldn't rip off its own IP to make a buck.

There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stories from various media to look to for inspiration.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It was pretty good, yeah.

Your insinuation that Avatar isn't 100% original is misguided: I'm not saying TFA needs to be 100% original in all of fiction.

I'm saying it shouldn't rip off its own IP to make a buck.

There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stories from various media to look to for inspiration.

I'm not insinuating, but you mentioned Avatar and I pointed out that it's basically a copy of Disney's Pocahontas.


And sure, it could've be done better, but even with that rip off, it's better than TPM and AOTC by far imo.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'm not insinuating, but you mentioned Avatar and I pointed out that it's basically a copy of Disney's Pocahontas.


And sure, it could've be done better, but even with that rip off, it's better than TPM and AOTC by far imo.

Yeah, that's an insinuation. I know Avatar isn't original and is a retooled Disney's Pocahontas.

But again, TFA ripped off its own series. That's hilariously lazy and unforgivable.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, that's an insinuation. I know Avatar isn't original and is a retooled Disney's Pocahontas.

But again, TFA ripped off its own series. That's hilariously lazy and unforgivable.

It's a FACT. I stated a fact. K?


But it's not exactly a rip off, it's more like a tribute.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It's a FACT. I stated a fact. K?


But it's not exactly a rip off, it's more like a tribute.

Nah, it's a rip-off.

Avatar is more a tribute to Pocahontas than TFA is to ANH, precisely because it is (a) unoriginal and (b) undermines the OT.

TFA's plot essentially says Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi, the Empire's defeat is irrelevant because the First Order (which is virtually identical to the Empire on both substantial and superficial fronts) is on the rise, the New Republic is a joke, the Resistance is exactly like the Rebel Alliance, oh and Han and Chewie are doing the same shit they were doing 30 years ago because fvck character development.

I love ya, Colonel, but the ways in which TFA violates the OT are about as subtle as a brick to the face.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

TFA's plot essentially says Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi, the Empire's defeat is irrelevant because the First Order (which is virtually identical to the Empire on both substantial and superficial fronts) is on the rise, the New Republic is a joke, the Resistance is exactly like the Rebel Alliance, oh and Han and Chewie are doing the same shit they were doing 30 years ago because fvck character development.


Sound a lot like the EU.

I agree that the Resistance/First Order split is dumb, but this hardly trivializes the OT. Had Vader not turned against Palpatine, there would've been essentially nobody to stop the Empire. In the ST, you still have a probably Palpatine+ tier Luke, a New Republic that technically exists, etc.

I did like TFA a lot, mostly because I find the originals really fugging dated, but yeah, it wasn't exactly ground-breaking.

To me Star Wars is untapped potential incarnate. Really awesome concept, a literal galaxy of potential, inhibited only by the minds behind the script. And that extends to the EU as well.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sound a lot like the EU.

Most of the EU sucked as well, for a plethora of reasons.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I agree that the Resistance/First Order split is dumb, but this hardly trivializes the OT. Had Vader not turned against Palpatine, there would've been essentially nobody to stop the Empire. In the ST, you still have a probably Palpatine+ tier Luke, a New Republic that technically exists, etc.

It absolutely trivializes the OT because the status quo is, for all intents and purposes, unchanged.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

It absolutely trivializes the OT because the status quo is, for all intents and purposes, unchanged.

As I said, it isn't. The Resistance + New Republic + Luke > the Rebel Alliance, and the First Order <<<<<<<<<<<< Sheev's Empire.

Well sure, did they honestly expect destroying the Death Star and killing its two leaders was going to annihilate or completely stop an Empire that spans through thousands (?) of planets? Of course not. The Empire being the largest military ever to grace the galaxy is a huge factor to this. Also, this was a ton of years after RotJ. For all we know, the numerous remnants of Palp's Empire could've taken years to re-group.

The fact the Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi Order is only interesting and adds a nice, unexpected twist to the saga.

The New Republic being reluctant to effectively be involved with the Empire or its remnants ever again is also interesting, and I'm sure the political reasons behind this will be explained eventually.

Yes, the Resistance is a blatant copy of the Alliance, but there's imo nothing wrong about that.

Han and Chewie doing the exact same shit they were doing 30 years ago doesn't show a lack of character development. Han will be Han, and Chewie will be Chewie, but you missed all those years in the middle when they weren't doing the exact same shit. Han's character development is noticeable in other ways; the fact that he's portrayed as the same ol' Han doesn't mean there wasn't character development imo.

I love ya too.

I'm certainly not a fan that Luke failed at recreating the Jedi Order. Hopefully, he doesn't die in this trilogy so he can do so, otherwise I'm going to be pissed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As I said, it isn't. The Resistance + New Republic + Luke > the Rebel Alliance, and the First Order <<<<<<<<<<<< Sheev's Empire.

As I said, it is.

Narratively, the First Order represents no less a threat to TFA's heroes than Sheev's empire did to ANH's. For all intents and purposes, they're the same overarching Goliath, stylistically and substantively, that the Empire was for ANH.

No one cares that there are minute, legal, logistical differences between them when the story treats them as virtually the same.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm certainly not a fan that Luke failed at recreating the Jedi Order. Hopefully, he doesn't die in this trilogy so he can do so, otherwise I'm going to be pissed. Yeah, budding new Jedi Order operating under Luke's new philosophy > back to square one.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Well sure, did they honestly expect destroying the Death Star and killing its two leaders was going to annihilate or completely stop an Empire that spans through thousands (?) of planets? Of course not. The Empire being the largest military ever to grace the galaxy is a huge factor to this. Also, this was a ton of years after RotJ. For all we know, the numerous remnants of Palp's Empire could've taken years to re-group.

The fact the Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi Order is only interesting and adds a nice, unexpected twist to the saga.

The New Republic being reluctant to effectively be involved with the Empire or its remnants ever again is also interesting, and I'm sure the political reasons behind this will be explained eventually.

Yes, the Resistance is a blatant copy of the Alliance, but there's imo nothing wrong about that.

Han and Chewie doing the exact same shit they were doing 30 years ago isn't exactly character development. Han will be Han, and Chewie will be Chewie, but you missed all those years in the middle when they weren't doing the exact same shit. Han's character development is noticeable in other ways; the fact that he's portrayed as the same ol' Han doesn't mean there wasn't character development imo.

I love ya too.

Yuck. Let's just say we strongly disagree across the board.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Well sure, did they honestly expect destroying the Death Star and killing its two leaders was going to annihilate or completely stop an Empire that spans through thousands (?) of planets?

A million systems, actually. If we count the EU and Saxton's ICSs, the number of colonies and whatnot is like 50 million. That there was still a fight afterwards is actually pretty believable.

And the New Republic beat the Empire, and now controls the bulk of the galaxy + Coruscant. That the First Order seems to have the upper hand atm is just a temporary setback that tends to happen when pendulums swing in a protracted military conflict.

Granted, I do think the "Resistance" is kind of stupid, but whatever.

Thing is, there really are only a few people in the middle. Most either strongly disagree or they don't, in regards to TFA. At least in my experience.

Like it's any different from all the other SW movies...

TFA supplemental material expounds upon the situation: TNR underwent a colossal demilitarization effort post-Jakku and are largely impotent.

Can't imagine the situation was remedied with the destruction of its capital, primary governmental machinery, and IIRC the bulk of its fleet.

Colonel, to be fair, you also think SWTOR is really good. That's nauseating.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Narratively, the First Order represents no less a threat to TFA's heroes than Sheev's empire did to ANH's. For all intents and purposes, they're the same overarching Goliath, stylistically and substantively, that the Empire was for ANH.

No one cares that there are minute, legal, logistical differences between them when the story treats them as virtually the same.

Those "minute, legal, logistical differences" are tangibly important to determining how much of a threat the First Order poses, lol.

Um, no? The First Order can raid Jakku and then get owned by Resistance fighters. The Empire can d*ck around with Lando's Cloud City and get away with it. And how else could any villain have been portrayed? A menace that couldn't even raid a defenseless Jakku and maybe plant some spies at Maz's place wouldn't create much tension, would it? Jabba the Hutt could've pulled that off. Its only arsenal that rivals that of the Empire would be Starkiller base - but the fact that it can construct a planet buster doesn't suddenly mean that it rivals Palpatine's Empire, in overall ability, kek. It means they built up a weapon of mass destruction - sort of like any movie about some terrorists getting a nuke does.

Regardless, the question of whether the threat poses as much of an immediate, bodily harm to the heroes has nothing to do with whether it undermines the meaning of the OT. By that logic, even a story about some random dissidents that can raid Jakku and shoot at the heroes makes them equivalent to the Empire and thus negates the OT. It's overarching threat isn't the same, although quite frankly, it should be close for there to be any tension or meaningful plot.

I don't think SWTOR is really good. I like some of its characters and storylines, and I enjoy playing the game, but that doesn't mean I think it's really good.

I enjoy watching TPM, AOTC and all the shit SW has produced so far, whilst knowing they're not very good.

Also, the contribution of the OT is still that:


The Force is back in balance and the dark side isn't shrouding everything.
Trillions (quadrillions?) of people are now free from the Empire, and probably will remain so.


That there's the short term military threat of the First Order means nothing.

The New Republic might as well not exist. The idea that the First Order is minor is also hilarious. No one cares about a mystical energy field that's there to give space wizards powers.

Except that it accomplished the goal of liberating most of the galaxy, including, presumably, a lot of those the Empire had enslaved. That's a meaningful accomplishment. That it isn't militarily relevant in the immediate future doesn't change that, lel.

And it's basically gone now with all of its fleet and capital. It means literally nothing when the First Order is the only one with power in the galaxy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Those "minute, legal, logistical differences" are tangibly important to determining how much of a threat the First Order poses, lol.

Um, no? The First Order can raid Jakku and then get owned by Resistance fighters. And how else could any villain have been portrayed? A menace that couldn't even raid a defenseless Jakku and maybe plant some spies at Maz's place wouldn't create much tension, would it? Jabba the Hutt could've pulled that off. Its only arsenal that rivals that of the Empire would be Starkiller base - but the fact that it can construct a planet buster doesn't suddenly mean that it rivals Palpatine's Empire, in overall ability, kek.

Regardless, the question of whether the threat poses as much of an immediate, bodily harm to the heroes has nothing to do with whether it undermines the meaning of the OT. By that logic, even a story about some random dissidents that can raid Jakku and shoot at the heroes makes them equivalent to the Empire and thus negates the OT. It's overarching threat isn't the same, although quite frankly, it should be close for there to be any tension or meaningful plot.

Not at all.

The storyline is contrived to bolster the threat the First Order poses:



Functionally, the First Order is probably the galaxy's foremost military power by the end of TFA, if not at the beginning, even with the destruction of Starkiller Base.

The fact that its troops were defeated by the Resistance means... what, exactly?

The fact that the First Order isn't as big as the Empire at its height is irrelevant. Neither is 21st century USA compared to the 19th century British Empire. The plot is deliberately contrived to evoke the Empire substantively and stylistically. These clearly aren't some podunk backwater terrorists.

They still haven't physically conquered anything. There are like a million planets that have benefited from the Empire's fall, and quite frankly the First Order probably isn't going to end up conquering them, or if they do, it'll be for a short time.

Yeah guys the New Republic appears to be dead, its literally stated as much in the movie.

Logically speaking I guess they could just reelect new Senators, but it is stated in the movie that the Republic is gone.

EDIT: I also agree with Temp that stylistically the situation is very Rebellion/Empire esque, the Republic really aren't a presence at all.

The Alliance fought to free the galaxy from the grasp of the Empire, the Resistance fights to keep the galaxy free.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They still haven't physically conquered anything. There are like a million planets that have benefited from the Empire's fall, and quite frankly the First Order probably isn't going to end up conquering them, or if they do, it'll be for a short time.

None of that matters until it's demonstrated, depicted, or otherwise experienced. From a cinematic perspective, it's trivia.

Tempest,

So what, exactly, is your argument here? That the First Order poses a big threat isn't a bad thing - it's just having tension like a story ought to.

What I responded to was your claim that the First Order negates the accomplishments of the heroes in the OT. This is factually wrong. The heroes of the OT:

Defeated a threat you admit was far greater than the First Order.
Constructed a New Republic that liberated most of the known galaxy - and the galaxy now accrues its benefits for a few decades, and since the First Order will likely lose pretty soon, into the foreseeable future.

Otherwise Palpatine would've created his fleet of Death Stars and probably been unbeatable.

These are lasting, tangible benefits.

Your reply is basically that the First Order has thematic similarities to the Empire or some b*llshit - of course it does, it's a Galactic Empire wannabe. That doesn't negate the accomplishment of the OT at all.

If you're shifting your argument to another rendition of "it's unoriginal", I won't argue with you there - it's not the same as your argument that the OT accomplished nothing.

Jesus Christ, the screenplay even lampshades it by directly comparing Starkiller Base with the Death Star.

The Aesop is pretty plain: "lol the Death Star is like soooo last year. #skbftw"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
None of that matters until it's demonstrated, depicted, or otherwise experienced. From a cinematic perspective, it's trivia.

So when James Bond saves the world from a nuclear threat, you don't get any sort of satisfaction unless if the camera pans to all of the people living happily as a result, and emphasizes how everyone can now live their lives out in peace or something?

Because the OT didn't do this except for like a ten minute celebration at the end. Would you have been satisfied if the movie had shown some people happily taking walks in the park and waving to some free wookiees or something?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tempest,

So what, exactly, is your argument here? That the First Order poses a big threat isn't a bad thing - it's just having tension like a story ought to.

What I responded to was your claim that the First Order negates the accomplishments of the heroes in the OT. This is factually wrong. The heroes of the OT:

Defeated a threat you admit was far greater than the First Order.
Constructed a New Republic that liberated most of the known galaxy - and the galaxy now accrues its benefits for a few decades, and since the First Order will likely lose pretty soon, into the foreseeable future.

Otherwise Palpatine would've created his fleet of Death Stars and probably been unbeatable.

These are lasting, tangible benefits.

Your reply is basically that the First Order has thematic similarities to the Empire or some b*llshit - of course it does, it's a Galactic Empire wannabe. That doesn't negate the accomplishment of the OT at all.

If you're shifting your argument to another rendition of "it's unoriginal", I won't argue with you there - it's not the same as your argument that the OT accomplished nothing.

lol

My position here is pretty straightforward, my son: TFA is unoriginal and undermines the shit that came before it. Perhaps you were too desperate to cross swords with me to dwell on it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

TFA's plot essentially says Luke failed to re-establish the Jedi, the Empire's defeat is irrelevant because the First Order (which is virtually identical to the Empire on both substantial and superficial fronts) is on the rise, the New Republic is a joke, the Resistance is exactly like the Rebel Alliance, oh and Han and Chewie are doing the same shit they were doing 30 years ago because fvck character development.


^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting my satire.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting caring about my satire.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
TFA is unoriginal and undermines the shit that came before it.

The former isn't something I'm contesting; the latter is blatantly wrong, and with the latter your only argument has been to just shift the conversation to the first argument (.ie that it looks similar, which is just your former contention), lel.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ it's pretty f*cking obvious that I was responding to the red. As I said, I'm not disputing the overarching claim that TFA isn't terribly original. But your assertion that nothing has changed from the OT is as stupid as your not getting my satire.

Aaaaaand your refrain can be summarized as: "The Empire's defeat is relevant because of reasons that aren't remotely articulated or conveyed in the actual movie! But like trust me it was supes important!"

And what on earth led you to believe I genuinely think you worship me? haermm

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


True, the guy probably honestly believes that people worship him.

It must hurt so much to see someone clearly more intelligent than him come along.

Because you think everyone worships you (at least secretly)?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It must hurt so much to see someone clearly more intelligent than him come along.

It runs through your heritage, after all.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Because you think everyone worships you (at least secretly)?

mmm

I know some worship me. But in general, most are just fixated on me. The difference is subtle and I'm pleased by both. stoned

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aaaaaand your refrain can be summarized as: "The Empire's defeat is relevant because of reasons that aren't remotely articulated or conveyed in the actual movie! But like trust me it was supes important!"


Again, I never see much elaboration on the impacts that stopping X threat has in any movie, except for maybe a brief epilogue. RotJ had like ten minutes of fireworks, lol.

It's not like these reasons are particularly obscure or difficult to grasp, so it can be taken for granted that people get it.

At most, you could argue that we should've had some sort of scene earlier in the movie that shows the New Republic or something, but I don't think it's a very damning criticism.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

I know some worship me. But in general, most are just fixated on me. The difference is subtle and I'm pleased by both. stoned

People are fixated on Legend too.

Heck, I think people were much more fixated on HWKA than you now, lawl.

Anyway, I've no interest in starting a flame war. I need you to sh*t on Vitiate.

Temp check my last reply in TBB.

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